Need help with algebra 2

[Janeway]

Son is almost done with public school algebra two. It is an online class, but the teacher offers tutoring in person.  His grade is only in the C range. I already own the second semester of Derek Owens algebra two book so I thought that would be a good place to start. I decided to do the semester one test with him before starting semester two. But when I gave it to him today, he failed. He missed problems that had topics I actually taught him in algebra. One problem he missed was to factor 16X^4-81. Another he missed was simplify cube rot of 27x^3y^5.  He was able to do 6 problems out of 14. Oddly, he did do some problems that were more difficult than the ones I listed above. 

Any program that anyone could suggest that would truly teach him, that he can do at his own pace, nothing that just checks the boxes? Because he already will have the algebra 2 credit, the only thing I could do to even give him credit for this is to label it something else (I will just use one of the titles the public school uses for their classes for kids who struggled and need more review). Thank you!

edited to add: I think a workbook program would work best for him.

Edited February 19, 2020 by Janeway

[MamaSprout]

I would talk to Derek Owens. My dd had completed an different Algebra 2 course, but she was young and the course she had completed didn't cover trig. DO's does. We signed up for self grading. I had her take the midterm, do the one or so section where she had missed a couple, and then begin testing through the second semester a chapter at a time. There was a lot in the second semester she hadn't seen so it was a good move. She did the second semester during the summer. She's solid this year in precalculus.

[EKS]

I would quickly run through DO's Algebra 2 class to fill any holes and then move on to whatever precalculus you think is good.  And when I say DO, I mean his actual class, not the Larson book, as it will be more efficient (if you have him actually work the example problems rather than just watch through them).  You can get the class without grading.

[Janeway]

7 minutes ago, EKS said:

I would quickly run through DO's Algebra 2 class to fill any holes and then move on to whatever precalculus you think is good.  And when I say DO, I mean his actual class, not the Larson book, as it will be more efficient (if you have him actually work the example problems rather than just watch through them).  You can get the class without grading.

I should clarify...he struggles a lot with math. We did algebra 1 three times. I am not kidding. He did it one time through with school-school, one time with DO, and one time with home school (it was Jacobs or Foersters, cannot remember which, I own both). 

[EKS]

10 minutes ago, Janeway said:

I should clarify...he struggles a lot with math. We did algebra 1 three times. I am not kidding. He did it one time through with school-school, one time with DO, and one time with home school (it was Jacobs or Foersters, cannot remember which, I own both). 

Ok, then run through DO's Algebra 2 slowly (and I'd be there with him every step of the way).

[Janeway]

32 minutes ago, square_25 said:

 

Could you tell me what his thinking was for the problems he missed? What did he try for them? 

He didn’t try. He says they looked familiar but he just cannot remember how to do them. 

[Janeway]

Just now, square_25 said:

Hmmmmmm. Is that generally his approach, to try to remember algorithms he's memorized from before? That sounds suboptimal. For both of those questions, there are at least things you should try before giving up... he had no ideas at all? 

If you had to guess, what concepts from algebra would you say he struggles with? I'd probably try to go through everything with him and make sure there are no gaps.  

He really puzzles me and frustrates me. I would kind of like to order Dolciani and teach it myself but, he likely has dyscalcula. I feel like I am throwing money after money at stuff he either does not want to learn or just refuses to.

[Janeway]

7 minutes ago, square_25 said:

Hmmmm. That sounds difficult :-(. What's your goal for him? 

I am not sure anymore. 

[Janeway]

12 hours ago, square_25 said:

 

I might start there. Figure out what you and he want out of this. Is it to meet requirements for getting into college? Is it to dislike math less? This currently sounds like a situation in which he's just been kind of limping along, and he isn't exactly sure why. 

It’s not just the math, it’s everything. He is struggling all around.

Edited February 21, 2020 by Janeway

[Paige]

Could it be more of a mental health issue than a character issue? He might benefit from a schedule focused on emotional health skills. 

If he failed Algebra 1 several times and still can't factor, I wouldn't try Algebra 2 without making sure he's solid on Algebra 1. Could you have him run through an old workbook/Light Unit CLE Algebra? It's not the most challenging program, but it's solid, IMO, and fairly cheap. I might have him just take the tests and then go over the gaps instead of doing every problem. 

My daughter is doing Mr D self paced Alg 2 and it's going well. I don't have anything else to compare to but I went with Mr D instead of DO because he's supposed to be a little gentler (maybe easier) and she'd never had a class like that before. You could also look for a tutor/class on Outschool. Even mid year, you might find someone. If you suspect dyscalculia, I don't think self study is a good idea. Mr D has live help even for the self paced students. 

Edited February 21, 2020 by Paige

[prairiewindmomma]

Can we pause and re-frame this for a minute? Getting a kid with dyscalculia through algebra is no small feat...even if it took 3 tries. Getting enough content in Algebra 2 in to feel confident putting it on a transcript is huge. It is a HUGE hurdle to graduation for so many with dyscalculia, one that many cannot overcome. I will be dang proud of my dyscalcic kid if he gets there. He literally is very gifted but math to his dyscalcic brain is challenging enough that he has to work at least 4x harder than my non-dyscalcic kids. It’s like learning how to do advanced chemistry in Russian while scuba diving hard. It’s no wonder he’s not super excited to tackle that every day. 

Figure out what you need for a transcript, figure out what he needs for life, and move on. 

 

[prairiewindmomma]

Fwiw, in your shoes, if you wanted to do more I would pay a tutor to step in and work him up through pre-calc semester one...because that is the equivalent math course that my local college requires everyone to get through for graduation. I would call it pre-calc.

There is no way I could turn my dyscalcic kid over to self study. He will likely always need intensive tutoring. He’s currently getting an A in public school in math, but he is putting in serious work at home.

[Janeway]

11 hours ago, Paige said:

Maybe

Edited February 21, 2020 by Janeway

[Janeway]

5 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Fwiw, in your shoes, if you wanted to do more I would pay a tutor to step in and work him up through pre-calc semester one...because that is the equivalent math course that my local college requires everyone to get through for graduation. I would call it pre-calc.

There is no way I could turn my dyscalcic kid over to self study. He will likely always need intensive tutoring. He’s currently getting an A in public school in math, but he is putting in serious work at home.

The last thing I did which seemed to finish off algebra for him was, I had ordered DO and had the workbooks but I also owned the textbook DO based his lessons on. He never really watched the DO lessons, but I had the textbook. DO's lessons were mostly based off the textbook (less and less toward the end, but I was able to figure it out). By teaching him myself, in person, I was able to watch his face and know if he really got it or not, and if he was just guessing or trying to go through the motions. We did algebra 1 at home in 7th grade and only got through the first few chapters. First we did keys to algebra. Then, I think we did Jacob's, but might have done Foersters. Then, the next year, he went to a brick and mortar school and did algebra 1. He did okay but by the end of the first semester, he was struggling. He left that school at Christmas that year and I did DO with him. By "did DO" he did not watch the lectures and I took the book and taught it to him myself. We got through it and then he finished up the year with an online school and earned a 99 on the final.  The next year (which was last year) he took geometry in public school. The first semester he was in preAP and earned a 72. To be honest, it was poorly taught. The teacher even told me she was new to teaching that class at that school and felt frustrated with the restrictions given to her in teaching. Basically, she was not allowed to teach certain parts but required to test on them. She said her hands were tied. It was stuff like telling students to make proofs, but then not allowed to list the various theorems and such to use. The students were supposed to figure it out from the course of the lecture without having any sort of summary or review. Regular level students were given a list and better explanations. In the second semester, we switched him to regular level and he earned 89. 

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

10 hours ago, Janeway said:

He didn’t try. He says they looked familiar but he just cannot remember how to do them. 

 

When we got to the big factoring chapters for algebra, my son started getting lost on the various strategies and methods.  This is where he started keeping a notebook of factoring.  He could then refer to it as needed.  

 

I don't know anything about dyscalculia, so not sure how helpful it would be.  

 

[Janeway]

Just now, Monica_in_Switzerland said:

 

When we got to the big factoring chapters for algebra, my son started getting lost on the various strategies and methods.  This is where he started keeping a notebook of factoring.  He could then refer to it as needed.  

 

 

 

How does this notebook look? As in, exactly what did he put in to it?

[Wheres Toto]

It sounds like his math education has been lacking in consistency.   Have you looked into Ronin Bird and some other resources specifically for dyscalculia?   I would look into dyscalculia resources or think about what seemed to work best in the past and stick with that.  Maybe do a review of big concepts in Algebra 1 (like factoring) before moving on because not being solid on those skills are just going to make moving on harder.    

You didn't say how old he is now but mentioned Algebra 1 in 7th grade.  That's on the young side and is it possible he just wasn't ready?  Not all kids are ready for algebra until they are older.  

I have one kid who is gifted in math and one kid that is doing Algebra 1 now but we're doing a slow and easy introduction, going over things as many times as possible, continuous review, and I'll be happy if I manage to get her through pre-calc in the next 4 years

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

Just now, Janeway said:

How does this notebook look? As in, exactly what did he put in to it?

 

Basically, good notes.  And I basically dictated the notes to him and helped him format his pages.  

So one page was all about slope-intercept form of linear equations, how to graph them, what each part of y=mx+b means.  The next page was all about standard form of linear equations Ax + By =C and how to use it, etc.  

For factoring, we had pages of strategies:

- Can I factor out a constant or variable (or both) out of all terms? (examples)

- Is this a DOTS (difference of two squares)?, with examples of how to recognize and solve.

- Is this a S or D OTC (sum or difference of two cubes)?, with examples of how to recognize and solve

- Is this a quadratic equation solved with the r and s method (find 2 numbers that add up to the constant term and multiply together to form the linear coefficient when the quadratic coefficient is 1)?  Lots of examples

- Same as above but when the quadratic term's coefficient is not 1

- Quadratic equation and how to use

- Completing the Square and how to use

.... Then pages for how to graph quadratics based on their equation, how to use completing the square to get the formula with the vertex in it (name of this is escaping me, maybe just standard form?).

 

He ended up barely using it.  I think the act of copying it all out helped him memorize it.  BUT, I'm sure if we did a factoring test right now, after doing other things forever, he would find it handy.  It's hard to keep things like how to factor DOTC in your head if you aren't using it regularly.  

 

[Janeway]

7 minutes ago, Where's Toto? said:

It sounds like his math education has been lacking in consistency.   Have you looked into Ronin Bird and some other resources specifically for dyscalculia?   I would look into dyscalculia resources or think about what seemed to work best in the past and stick with that.  Maybe do a review of big concepts in Algebra 1 (like factoring) before moving on because not being solid on those skills are just going to make moving on harder.    

You didn't say how old he is now but mentioned Algebra 1 in 7th grade.  That's on the young side and is it possible he just wasn't ready?  Not all kids are ready for algebra until they are older.  

I have one kid who is gifted in math and one kid that is doing Algebra 1 now but we're doing a slow and easy introduction, going over things as many times as possible, continuous review, and I'll be happy if I manage to get her through pre-calc in the next 4 years

He had completed everything to start algebra 1, but we started with keys to algebra in 7th and continued with Jacob's, starting maybe half way through the year. We only got part way through when he started a brick and mortar school. 

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

10 hours ago, Janeway said:

I am not sure anymore. 

I wonder how it would be if you put algebra aside for a bit and did something like Basic College Math, then went to College Algebra.  He may feel relieved to have something different to work on, something with "college" in the title to make him feel like he isn't treating water, and my understanding (I may be wrong) is that these books compress the math into just what is needed for a well-rounded education.

[Janeway]

8 minutes ago, Monica_in_Switzerland said:

I wonder how it would be if you put algebra aside for a bit and did something like Basic College Math, then went to College Algebra.  He may feel relieved to have something different to work on, something with "college" in the title to make him feel like he isn't treating water, and my understanding (I may be wrong) is that these books compress the math into just what is needed for a well-rounded education.

He needs decent size print without cluttered pages. Do you have a specific book you recommend? For example, Foerster's Algebra and Trig book is a bit too overwhelming for him. 

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

2 hours ago, Janeway said:

He needs decent size print without cluttered pages. Do you have a specific book you recommend? For example, Foerster's Algebra and Trig book is a bit too overwhelming for him. 

 

No, I'm sorry.  It might be worth starting a new topic to find a good one!  

[EKS]

Now that I understand a bit more about this young man's difficulties with math...how about Lial?  If he has difficulty with cluttered pages, I wouldn't have him look at the text part (hopefully you're going to be doing the teaching anyway), but the problem sets aren't cluttered (if you use the paperback version).  If you're set on doing Algebra 2 with him, the Intermediate Algebra book works well to remediate any Algebra 1 weaknesses while still moving into harder material.  I've used it now with two kids who needed this sort of experience and it has worked well.  With one of them, I had him do Derek Owens Algebra 2 before moving onto (honors) precalculus.  I'm still in the thick of it with my bonus student.  I think we will probably just stick with Lial.

Edited February 21, 2020 by EKS

[Lang Syne Boardie]

3 minutes ago, EKS said:

Now that I understand a bit more about this young man's difficulties with math...how about Lial?  If he has difficulty with cluttered pages, I wouldn't have him look at the text part (hopefully you're going to be doing the teaching anyway), but the problem sets aren't cluttered (if you use the paperback version).  If you're set on doing Algebra 2 with him, the Intermediate Algebra book works well to remediate any Algebra 1 weaknesses while still moving into harder material.  I've used it now with two kids who needed this sort of experience and it has worked well.  With one of them, I had him do Derek Owens Algebra 2 before moving onto (honors) precalculus.  I'm still in the thick of it with the other.  I think we will probably just stick with Lial.

I was about to suggest Lial, too, combined with the strategy of copying one problem at a time onto a whiteboard. Go back to working with him, a problem at a time, on whiteboards or chalkboards. Might as well, if you're returning to teaching him yourself.

Signed, LSB, also from the trenches

 

Edited February 21, 2020 by Lang Syne Boardie

[EKS]

1 hour ago, Lang Syne Boardie said:

I was about to suggest Lial, too, combined with the strategy of copying one problem at a time onto a whiteboard. Go back to working with him, a problem at a time, on whiteboards or chalkboards. Might as well, if you're returning to teaching him yourself.

Signed, LSB, also from the trenches

 

Absolutely--whiteboards are magical.