Great Conversations/Omnibus type classes - why do you pick them?

[Trilliumlady]

So I’m realizing I have to start thinking about a 7th grader coming up this fall and I’m feeling overwhelmed!!  I was looking over the WHA class list someone posted awhile ago and saw the Great Conversations courses.  They look intriguing to me to say the least!  I’d love to hear: 

1.  Why others have chosen to add this type of class to their middle schooler’s years

2. What options you looked at and what did you eventually go with (I’m good with either online or not)

3. How you justify adding in another (potentially) heavy class with the already increasing in intensity MS years - this is where I most stumble!

4. Any thoughts about this at all!  It’s just so hard limiting things.  Having come from the typical rural public school (as I know many of us likely have) the breadth and depth offered by homeschool options is so, so, delicious to me.  I wish desperately I would have had things like this but never had a chance, and now I’m wanting to do EVERYTHING which is know is NOT the answer.

For the record, this is what her 7th grade year *might* look like so far: 

Math: CLE 7

Writing: IEW of some sort, not sure which one yet

Latin: Second Form Latin (did FFL with DVDs this year, wondering if it would be wise to it online this time?  Still questioning this....)

Grammar: Fix-It (I think)

Literature: MPOA Middle School Lit II (maybe?)

History: MP Famous Men of the Middle Ages

Science: MPOA Middle School Science II

Spelling: R&S 7

Geography: MP World Geography (I think)

It looks like so much!!!  But then I wonder if it’s *supposed* to look like so much, cuz, ya know, it’s getting close to high school (YIKES)......

[Lori D.]

I would ONLY ever go with a heavy/rigorous Great Conversations type of class with a student who is:
- a STRONG reader AND writer
- a self-motivated, self-disciplined learner
- loves this type of study and these topics

And even if my student DID have all of those qualifications, unless the student was advanced/accelerated, I probably would not start that type of course / online course until at least 9th grade. Too many wonderful middle school-appropriate opportunities would be missed, feeling that we "needed" to grasp towards high school-level "rigor".

- Middle school is a unique "last window of opportunity" to explore freely and have fun with personal interests without having to worry about accruing credits of the # and type that colleges will want to see for admissions.
- The middle school years are the time to solidify foundational skills in Math, LA, study skills, typing and basic computer skills in order to be comfortable in those areas for high school.
- The middle school years are a wonderful time to develop a habit of balance -- not over-tilting into 7, 9, 10 hours a day with rigorous outsourced courses, so that life is only all about academics.
- The middle school years are when the student is developing those critical thinking/analysis/discussion skills so you can create a course of high interest to your student and enjoy exploring it together. Build great memories!


In answer to your questions:
1. We NEVER did (even in high school) add these type of outsourced classes to our DSs' schedule -- totally NOT a fit for them.
2. We made our own courses for the humanities subjects (Literature, History, Geography...). Very fun!
3. I would never make this choice. (see my first 3 paragraphs)
4. My thoughts -- see below:

It looks like you have this line-up (below), with 5 main subjects:

1. Language Arts
   - Literature: MPOA Middle School Lit II (maybe?)
   - Writing: IEW of some sort, not sure which one yet
   - Grammar: Fix-It (I think)
   - Spelling: R&S 7
2. Math: CLE 7
3. Science: MPOA Middle School Science II
4. Social Studies:
   - History: MP Famous Men of the Middle Ages
   - Geography: MP World Geography (I think)
5. Latin: Second Form Latin (did FFL with DVDs)

I personally would schedule those subjects so it takes no more than 20 hours per week, so that you still have time for other things. If you just went with 45-60 minutes per subject straight across the board, that's 4-5 hours of work per day, which is a very reasonable work load for the typical 7th grader. Obviously LA is more time intensive, and will take more time than that, but Social Studies are much easier to do as much/little as you please. And at 7th grade, if your student is taking more than 45 minutes on the Math, I would start "looping" lessons -- so, work for 45 minutes, loop any leftover lesson to the next day and finish it, start the following lesson, stop at 45 minutes, etc. The reason I say that is because 45 minutes is about the limit of concentration that the average middle schooler has for math -- taking more time that is not adding value. If you loop, then you can go into the summer to finish the Math -- no big deal.

You can also tweak in other ways to allow more time for extracurriculars, or for bunny trails, or other topics of interest. Ideas:

- Lit = some Lit. reading could be down aloud together at night as family read-alouds (or student solo reading after regular school hours, or on weekends) 
- Writing = if you do 30 min./day 4 days/week of focused time on writing, and break longer assignments into shorter bites and add a "bite" a day, that will be great -- it makes Writing a daily, manageable habit
- Spelling = unless you have a remedial need there, spelling can often be done in just 10 min/day -- consider oral spelling practice several times a week to speed it up
- Grammar/Geography = consider doing each just 2-3x/week, and alternating weeks -- so one week Grammar gets 3x/week and Geography gets 2x/week; the next week switch and do Geography 3x/week and Grammar 2x/week
- Science/History = easy to alternate these as longer blocks of time, so each gets done for 2hours a day 2x/week (ex: Science = Mon/Wed and History = Tues/Thurs) for a total of 4 hours a week for each -- and then on Fridays, finish up any odds and ends for either program 

In looking at your plan for next year, I would schedule time for:
- Fine Arts of interest to your student -- things like dance, theater, music, art, photography, filmmaking, weaving, jewelry making, woodworking... 
- fun exploration subject -- cooking, cake decorating, sewing, building catapults, computer coding, writing a story, robotics, K'Nex engineering challenges, soldering electronic kits....
- regular exercise or sports or physical activity
- social activities with friends

Some of those things could be afternoons/evenings, in the student's free time, or as an organized outside the home activity. But I would also encourage you to build in a block of time at least once a week for that "fun exploration" subject. 😉 

BEST of luck as you plan for middle school! Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited February 1, 2020 by Lori D.

[Lori D.]

P.S.
You did not say, but, what about your student?

- What kind of student is your rising 7th grader? If average or struggling, then formal or online classes may not be a good fit at this time.
- How interested in "formal academics" or "classical studies" is this student? Again, if not geared in that direction right now, but you want to go in that direction, I would take it very slowly/gently with DIY Lit. and History studies, and just 1-2 classic/older Literature works mixed in with lots of high interest/high discussion-ability Young Adult works, to ease into more formal/classical studies, in prep for outsourcing (if needed) in a year or two.
- Will taking formal/classical online classes be boring or too difficult or not a good fit for the student? Or "turn off" from learning? If so, then I wouldn't outsource that way this year.
- What *interests* does this student have? How can you cover your goals and the subjects you need to cover, but also bring in your student's interests?

I ask, because, honestly, while I'm sure the MPOA classes are fine, the Lit. selections look really dull for the average middle schooler. Even if you have a strong/advanced reader, 7th-8th grade is a *fantastic* time to read/discuss some literature together -- explore the world, read works by/about peoples from other perspectives, read those great Young Adult works that have "meat" for discussion. Yes, go ahead and do a Shakespeare play in 7th grade as part of your DIY studies if you all are interested and excited about it. And include a few beginning classic works, if your student is ready. There are a ton of very engaging resources out there to help you do that -- you don't necessarily have to outsource to an online class at this stage...

And of course, all of this is JMO. 😉 Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited February 1, 2020 by Lori D.

[Trilliumlady]

Lori D, you’re a wealth of knowledge, thank you.

She is maybe average to slightly above average I’d say.  LOVES to read, voraciously, and does not get easily scared away by heavy reading.  She so far seems to show appreciation for the type of classics we’ve had her read.  That being said, I take very seriously what you’ve said, especially regarding the input you had on MP literature class.  I have thought that myself at times, so maybe I should think about that again.  

I have read more than one thread about people using MS as a time to really have fun with “interest let” studies.  That is something maybe I need to give more thought to.  I’m not quite sure where I would look for options, though.  I do online selectively but definitely prefer not using it for just anything.  Any thoughts?  I’ll have to sit down with her sometime coming up as well and see what she might be interested in.  

So much to think about.....

[Lori D.]

27 minutes ago, Trilliumlady said:

Lori D, you’re a wealth of knowledge, thank you.

She is maybe average to slightly above average I’d say.  LOVES to read, voraciously, and does not get easily scared away by heavy reading.  She so far seems to show appreciation for the type of classics we’ve had her read.  That being said, I take very seriously what you’ve said, especially regarding the input you had on MP literature class.  I have thought that myself at times, so maybe I should think about that again.  

I have read more than one thread about people using MS as a time to really have fun with “interest let” studies.  That is something maybe I need to give more thought to.  I’m not quite sure where I would look for options, though.  I do online selectively but definitely prefer not using it for just anything.  Any thoughts?  I’ll have to sit down with her sometime coming up as well and see what she might be interested in.  

So much to think about.....

re: MPOA
If she's a strong reader and has enjoyed the classics you've done so far, perhaps consider doing the MP lit. class, and then enjoy doing some other types of Lit. informally at home.

re: sit down with her and come up with ideas
Great idea! Possibly for some things you can learn alongside her, and create you own course! 😉 Or, if you need more support:

locally:
- a friend, relative, neighbor, etc. who has a skill and would enjoy coming over 1x/week or every other week and working with your student
- homeschool enrichment co-op
- get together with a few other homeschoolers 1x/week and each parent lead a unit study on a topic of strength for that parent -- or, just provide that time for the students to do a book club together, or do projects together -- make a movie; science fair projects; art projects; community service activity; hands-on activities like leather-working, jewelry-making, wood-working, solder electronic kits, etc.
- community group -- model railroading, rocketry club, community youth theater
- 4-H group -- it's not just animals 😉 
- Parks & Rec class
- join an after school Math or Science club, chess club, robotics club, Bowling League...
- local library teen summer classes/programs

websites for self-teaching:
- Computer Coding -- Code Academy
- Art -- Animation Course; 
- Music -- Ukelele; Hoffman Piano; Fiddler Man
- Writing -- NaNoWriMo Young Writer's Program (free)

non-traditional topics for exploration:
- gardening, earthworm gardening, greenhouse gardening
- cooking, baking, cake decorating
- quilting, knitting, crocheting, finger weaving

non-traditional curricula:
- science = Jason Project; Guest Hollow's Botany or Anatomy
- fiction writing --  Cover Story, Adventures in Fantasy Writing
- literature = Literary Lessons from the Lord of the Rings (gr. 7-10);  Where the Brook and River Meet year-long unit study (gr. 8-12)

online course providers with non-traditional subjects:
Athena's Advanced Academy
Open Tent Academy
Out School

[annegables]

Oh man, you and I have had a very similar weekend:). I just posted in the high school thread something along these lines.

I could have written everything you said, except for the "what we are doing" part. 

[annegables]

6 hours ago, Lori D. said:

P.S.
You did not say, but, what about your student?

- What kind of student is your rising 7th grader? If average or struggling, then formal or online classes may not be a good fit at this time.
- How interested in "formal academics" or "classical studies" is this student? Again, if not geared in that direction right now, but you want to go in that direction, I would take it very slowly/gently with DIY Lit. and History studies, and just 1-2 classic/older Literature works mixed in with lots of high interest/high discussion-ability Young Adult works, to ease into more formal/classical studies, in prep for outsourcing (if needed) in a year or two.
- Will taking formal/classical online classes be boring or too difficult or not a good fit for the student? Or "turn off" from learning? If so, then I wouldn't outsource that way this year.
- What *interests* does this student have? How can you cover your goals and the subjects you need to cover, but also bring in your student's interests?

I ask, because, honestly, while I'm sure the MPOA classes are fine, the Lit. selections look really dull for the average middle schooler. Even if you have a strong/advanced reader, 7th-8th grade is a *fantastic* time to read/discuss some literature together -- explore the world, read works by/about peoples from other perspectives, read those great Young Adult works that have "meat" for discussion. Yes, go ahead and do a Shakespeare play in 7th grade as part of your DIY studies if you all are interested and excited about it. And include a few beginning classic works, if your student is ready. There are a ton of very engaging resources out there to help you do that -- you don't necessarily have to outsource to an online class at this stage...

And of course, all of this is JMO. 😉 Warmest regards, Lori D.

Thank you so much for all of this. You are a gem. With regards to the bolded, lots of the lit selections look really boring to me, and I really enjoy reading. One of my big struggles with those lists for middle school kids (like on Omnibus), is to read such difficult material at an age where they cannot appreciate much of it, only understand some of it, and enjoy little of it (at least my kids) seems like an exercise in futility. 

[Lori from Florida]

9 hours ago, Trilliumlady said:

So I’m realizing I have to start thinking about a 7th grader coming up this fall and I’m feeling overwhelmed!!  I was looking over the WHA class list someone posted awhile ago and saw the Great Conversations courses.  They look intriguing to me to say the least!  I’d love to hear: 

1.  Why others have chosen to add this type of class to their middle schooler’s years

2. What options you looked at and what did you eventually go with (I’m good with either online or not)

3. How you justify adding in another (potentially) heavy class with the already increasing in intensity MS years - this is where I most stumble!

4. Any thoughts about this at all!  It’s just so hard limiting things.  Having come from the typical rural public school (as I know many of us likely have) the breadth and depth offered by homeschool options is so, so, delicious to me.  I wish desperately I would have had things like this but never had a chance, and now I’m wanting to do EVERYTHING which is know is NOT the answer.

For the record, this is what her 7th grade year *might* look like so far: 

Math: CLE 7

Writing: IEW of some sort, not sure which one yet

Latin: Second Form Latin (did FFL with DVDs this year, wondering if it would be wise to it online this time?  Still questioning this....)

Grammar: Fix-It (I think)

Literature: MPOA Middle School Lit II (maybe?)

History: MP Famous Men of the Middle Ages

Science: MPOA Middle School Science II

Spelling: R&S 7

Geography: MP World Geography (I think)

It looks like so much!!!  But then I wonder if it’s *supposed* to look like so much, cuz, ya know, it’s getting close to high school (YIKES)......

My son is in 7th grade this year and is doing The Great Conversations 1 with WHA. He is a reluctant but capable reader and TGC1 is his favorite class.  My daughter started TCG classes in 9th grade.  She is a senior this year in TGC 6 and wishes she could have done them all.  I chose TGC classes over Omnibus because they combine the primary & secondary Omnibus into one class.  WHA has also scaled 1 & 2 to make them appropriate for middle schoolers.  I try to read the books along with my son.  Some he reads on his own and I read after him.  If they are really challenging we will listen to an audio book while he follows in the book or I'll read aloud.  His favorite book is now the Odyssey. I'm really going for exposure and building a firm foundation for high school.   

Here's what my son is doing this year:

History, Literature & Bible: The Great Conversation 1 (WHA)

Writing: Writing & Rhetoric 5 (Schole´ Academy)

Grammar: Fix-It Grammar (Will not do again)

Latin: Latin 1 (Schole´ Academy)

Math: Pre-Algebra (Schole´ Academy)

Science: Apologia Human Body

 

[8filltheheart]

One of my absolute favorite memories from all my yrs of homeschooling is an Anne of Green Gables study I did with my dd when she was in 7th grade. We traveled through literature with Anne and read what she was reading. That was the yr my dd fell in love with epic poetry and bought an 1800s edition of Marmion with her own money. She memorized  Edinburgh after Flodden that she recited for us just bc she wanted to.  Edinburgh after Flodden is long! And, oh my, she would quote King Lear just as dramatically as Anne (I'll never forget Cordelia!!!)

Literature offers so many ways to study with great interest and joy that it makes me sad to see dull as a word connected to it.

For our Anne study, I bought Where the Brook and River Meet as a source for ideas and then pulled out what appealed and added more where she wanted. Here is a link where I describe what we did. (She is now a  jr Russian and French major about to start an accelerated 5th yr masters in library sciences and information systems. Anne made her fall in love with languages and literature.)

 

[cintinative]

My now 8th grader did WHA's GC1 in 7th grade. He was a strong reader, and I wanted him to have the experience of an online class. I was *not* knowledgeable of the books. I did ask lots of questions of the teachers and even one of the parents and felt confident that my child could handle the workload. Unfortunately the question I did not ask is if my child would truly understand the themes of the books.  Maturity wise (as lit goes) we were not there.  It's great to discuss rationalism as embodied by the character Fox in Til We Have Faces, BUT my 7th grader was just not there. That said, there were many students in his class that were. In fact, I would read some of the students board posts and papers (also posted on the board) and they were truly exceptional, mature students.  My then 7th grader was "just" an average 7th grade boy.  Beyond just the themes issue, the reading was about an hour a day for him and he is not a slow reader.

I did try to do LTOW that year because we needed help with thesis writing--if I had it to do over I would have done Elegant Essay first and whipped through LTOW in less than eight weeks--but to be honest, I didn't like Elegant Essay after all the other IEW we had done. That year sort of wrecked me for writing.  I am hopeful their new high school product will cover the things I was looking for from Elegant Essay with the same whole-part approach. 

I still think that there is value to reading the Great Books. I am just currently looking for a less intense schedule, for example, six books a year instead of twelve.  It seems that MP takes this approach. If you look at their book lists they don't seem nearly so large as others like WHAs (which is less than Omnibus 1 primary and secondary).

That said, if I chose to do Brit Lit, American Lit and World Lit in high school would I be abandoning my Classical education ideals? No, I don't think so.  

It's been often said on here:  "Teach the child you have."  and "Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good."   I have been trying to regularly remind myself of these two things lately as I try to plan 9th grade.

Best wishes to you!!

ETA: What we ended up doing this year for my 8th grader is using The Human Odyssey (K12) Volume 3 (modern history) plus OUP's Pages From History (for the primary sources).  We did something similar for earlier grades--The Human Odyssey (K12) Volume 1 plus OUP's World in Ancient Times series and The Human Odyssey Volume 2 plus OUP's Medieval and Early modern world series.  HO Volume 1 and 2 are junior high products, as is the OUP ancient times series. When we used those I read them aloud though. 

 

Edited February 2, 2020 by cintinative

[8filltheheart]

Ideals are only good if you really understand why you hold them. Questioning ideals leads to deeper understanding of long-term objectives and goals and can help formulate clearer direction.  

Are classical education ideals founded on reading the great books in middle or high school?  What makes classical ideals a goal worth pursuing? Is my student's foundation strong enough to support reading the great books? Etc.

1 hour ago, cintinative said:

That said, if I chose to do Brit Lit, American Lit and World Lit in high school would I be abandoning my Classical education ideals? No, I don't think so.

Actually, this comment is really worth digging into. Most of the great books are more appropriate for more mature students than young teens. I think the factual answer to your question is that those courses do not fall into a classical education definition, but neither do most providers great books courses since reading literature is only a fraction of a classical education.

These ideas are worth researching historically and piecing together for yourself the bigger picture and understanding what all was entailed in a classical education. Formulate your own understanding and focus on your goals. (Which it sounds like you  @cintinative have.)

FWIW, I decided to abandon classical ideals a long time ago. It doesnt mean I lost my appreciation for them. I had to take those goals and figure out how to make them mine and how to make them work for the kids I have and their personal  life goals. 

 

Edited February 2, 2020 by 8FillTheHeart

[cintinative]

6 hours ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

 

Actually, this comment is really worth digging into. Most of the great books are more appropriate for more mature students than young teens. I think the factual answer to your question is that those courses do not fall into a classical education definition, but neither do most providers great books courses since reading literature is only a fraction of a classical education.

These ideas are worth researching historically and piecing together for yourself the bigger picture and understanding what all was entailed in a classical education. Formulate your own understanding and focus on your goals. (Which it sounds like you  @cintinative have.)

 

 

 

You are so right. I am struggling to piece together what I want for my kids. 

If you were to ask me on any given day what Classical education is about I would probably spout off a less than eloquent rephrasing of what I have heard Christopher Perrin, Andrew Kern and Martin Cochran say--it is the pursuit of truth, beauty and goodness . . .  and then I would fail to remember the last part. 😃  From the Circe site it is, "CLASSICAL EDUCATION is the cultivation of wisdom and virtue by nourishing the soul on truth, goodness, and beauty by means of the seven liberal arts and the four sciences"

So, if we abandon the study of literature by time period for example, could we not still be achieving this definition of classical education?  I am really hesitant to release this idea that we need to do history and lit by time period, concurrently. Why? I couldn't really tell you. Because I think they will understand it better in context maybe?  These are the questions I am asking myself lately.

[annegables]

8 hours ago, cintinative said:

My now 8th grader did WHA's GC1 in 7th grade. He was a strong reader, and I wanted him to have the experience of an online class. I was *not* knowledgeable of the books. I did ask lots of questions of the teachers and even one of the parents and felt confident that my child could handle the workload. Unfortunately the question I did not ask is if my child would truly understand the themes of the books.  Maturity wise (as lit goes) we were not there.  It's great to discuss rationalism as embodied by the character Fox in Til We Have Faces, BUT my 7th grader was just not there. That said, there were many students in his class that were. In fact, I would read some of the students board posts and papers (also posted on the board) and they were truly exceptional, mature students.  My then 7th grader was "just" an average 7th grade boy.  Beyond just the themes issue, the reading was about an hour a day for him and he is not a slow reader.

 

I am an intelligent and voracious reader. And I am a very literal reader (and am nowhere near the autism spectrum). As an adult, I have a difficult time finding themes in books. In AP English something, I read all of the Scarlet Letter without realizing that the A wasn't just embroidery like a monogram. 

Just this summer I read the Iliad, Odyssey, and Aeneid. Thanks to the Close Reads podcast covering The Odyssey, I finally got to see the deeper meanings and themes. Before that podcast I had vague thoughts of "there seem to be a lot of looms in this book." Once I pick up on the theme, then I can run with it (or BS about it, which is what I learned to do in AP Lit). That podcast and How to Read Literature Like a Professor have been enormously helpful in helping me understand deeper meanings in lit. 

[annegables]

8 hours ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

One of my absolute favorite memories from all my yrs of homeschooling is an Anne of Green Gables study I did with my dd when she was in 7th grade. We traveled through literature with Anne and read what she was reading. That was the yr my dd fell in love with epic poetry and bought an 1800s edition of Marmion with her own money. She memorized  Edinburgh after Flodden that she recited for us just bc she wanted to.  Edinburgh after Flodden is long! And, oh my, she would quote King Lear just as dramatically as Anne (I'll never forget Cordelia!!!)

Literature offers so many ways to study with great interest and joy that it makes me sad to see dull as a word connected to it.

For our Anne study, I bought Where the Brook and River Meet as a source for ideas and then pulled out what appealed and added more where she wanted. Here is a link where I describe what we did. (She is now a  jr Russian and French major about to start an accelerated 5th yr masters in library sciences and information systems. Anne made her fall in love with languages and literature.)

 

I first encountered the Anne books as an adult. I consider her a personal friend as those books have helped me navigate some of my adult milestones. It is also where I first really learned about WWI (all my high school history stopped at the Civil War). Those stories got into my bones and shaped me. For years I would read those books by candlelight, as an almost sacred ceremony. 

[Lori D.]

37 minutes ago, annegables said:

I am an intelligent and voracious reader. And I am a very literal reader (and am nowhere near the autism spectrum). As an adult, I have a difficult time finding themes in books. In AP English something, I read all of the Scarlet Letter without realizing that the A wasn't just embroidery like a monogram. 

Just this summer I read the Iliad, Odyssey, and Aeneid. Thanks to the Close Reads podcast covering The Odyssey, I finally got to see the deeper meanings and themes. Before that podcast I had vague thoughts of "there seem to be a lot of looms in this book." Once I pick up on the theme, then I can run with it (or BS about it, which is what I learned to do in AP Lit). That podcast and How to Read Literature Like a Professor have been enormously helpful in helping me understand deeper meanings in lit. 

Yes, podcasts, lecture series, Lit. guides, etc. can be a GREAT sources of background info about an author/times, provide ideas of "what to look for while reading", and have questions to help you springboard into discussion when you make a "DIY" course. 😄 

[cintinative]

49 minutes ago, annegables said:

Just this summer I read the Iliad, Odyssey, and Aeneid. Thanks to the Close Reads podcast covering The Odyssey, I finally got to see the deeper meanings and themes. Before that podcast I had vague thoughts of "there seem to be a lot of looms in this book." Once I pick up on the theme, then I can run with it (or BS about it, which is what I learned to do in AP Lit). That podcast and How to Read Literature Like a Professor have been enormously helpful in helping me understand deeper meanings in lit. 

 

I definitely need to check out that book.  I am not *great* at finding themes, but I could pick out passages that represented rationalism when asked to look for them. My 7th grader had to get my help.  😃  Now, if you had asked me to name the themes, I would not have come up with rationalism. LOL.

[Lori D.]

11 minutes ago, cintinative said:

 

I definitely need to check out that book.  I am not *great* at finding themes, but I could pick out passages that represented rationalism when asked to look for them. My 7th grader had to get my help.  😃  Now, if you had asked me to name the themes, I would not have come up with rationalism. LOL.

I found Wikipedia's List of Literary Movements to be a helpful starting point. Read the Wikipedia article about your author and/or novel that you're about to study, and it often points you toward what literary movement the work falls under. 😉 

[8filltheheart]

2 hours ago, cintinative said:

 

 

You are so right. I am struggling to piece together what I want for my kids. 

If you were to ask me on any given day what Classical education is about I would probably spout off a less than eloquent rephrasing of what I have heard Christopher Perrin, Andrew Kern and Martin Cochran say--it is the pursuit of truth, beauty and goodness . . .  and then I would fail to remember the last part. 😃  From the Circe site it is, "CLASSICAL EDUCATION is the cultivation of wisdom and virtue by nourishing the soul on truth, goodness, and beauty by means of the seven liberal arts and the four sciences"

So, if we abandon the study of literature by time period for example, could we not still be achieving this definition of classical education?  I am really hesitant to release this idea that we need to do history and lit by time period, concurrently. Why? I couldn't really tell you. Because I think they will understand it better in context maybe?  These are the questions I am asking myself lately.

Yeah, I dont agree with that definition. I see the trivium and quadrivium as defining classical ed and those forming the mind in how to think critically/philosophically and how to orate logically.  Cultivation of wisdom and virtue by nourishing the soul on truth, goodness, and beauty can be accomplished without any formal education. (I'm thinking of some of the greatest saints who had very limited formal educations. Look at Mother Theresa accomplished.) Classical ed was meant to be formal educational practices, not just reading books and intertwining them with history.

If you want them to intertwine bc that provides a solid educational background within a specific context, that should be a goal. But I wouldn't make it a goal bc it somehow makes it classical. 

[8filltheheart]

1 hour ago, annegables said:

I first encountered the Anne books as an adult. I consider her a personal friend as those books have helped me navigate some of my adult milestones. It is also where I first really learned about WWI (all my high school history stopped at the Civil War). Those stories got into my bones and shaped me. For years I would read those books by candlelight, as an almost sacred ceremony. 

I am going to do the study again with my current 8th grader when she is in 10th. Next yr we are doing the 2nd  half 1/2 of a LOTR study.  Her older sister was a very advanced student. She isnt. But, it is a ton of fun and covers a lot of wonderful literature, definitely worthy of high school credit.

[annegables]

37 minutes ago, cintinative said:

 

I definitely need to check out that book.  I am not *great* at finding themes, but I could pick out passages that represented rationalism when asked to look for them. My 7th grader had to get my help.  😃  Now, if you had asked me to name the themes, I would not have come up with rationalism. LOL.

It has chapters like: "When in doubt, It's from Shakespeare", "...Or The Bible", "It's more than just rain or snow",  "Is that a symbol", "Never stand next to the hero", "If she comes up, it's baptism", "Yes, she's a Christ figure, too", and "It's never just heart disease...and rarely just illness". This book was helpful and funny. I got to see so many things I had missed in books I have read.

 

[annegables]

1 hour ago, Lori D. said:

Yes, podcasts, lecture series, Lit. guides, etc. can be a GREAT sources of background info about an author/times, provide ideas of "what to look for while reading", and have questions to help you springboard into discussion when you make a "DIY" course. 😄 

Gah. I feel so silly. This thread has been a big light bulb moment for me. I have educated myself on some of the Great Books in a meaningful way, and I dont know why I didn't connect that with how I want to educate my son until this post. Good grief. I just kept looking at these Great Courses type classes and thinking that I wanted that for my son, except more how I did it for myself. Normally I am not this slow on the uptake.😜

[annegables]

47 minutes ago, cintinative said:

 

I definitely need to check out that book.  I am not *great* at finding themes, but I could pick out passages that represented rationalism when asked to look for them. My 7th grader had to get my help.  😃  Now, if you had asked me to name the themes, I would not have come up with rationalism. LOL.

To quote you again... If you are Christian (or not and want to read a classic Christian book), I recommend The Screwtape Letters for helping to find themes. The chapters are really short and themes are explicitly laid out as Screwtape and Wormwood discuss the nature of humans. Oh, snap - that's what materialism looks like! Thanks, Screwtape.

[8filltheheart]

5 minutes ago, annegables said:

It has chapters like: "When in doubt, It's from Shakespeare", "...Or The Bible", "It's more than just rain or snow",  "Is that a symbol", "Never stand next to the hero", "If she comes up, it's baptism", "Yes, she's a Christ figure, too", and "It's never just heart disease...and rarely just illness". This book was helpful and funny. I got to see so many things I had missed in books I have read.

 

Lol! Unless it is"O, what a tangled web we weave when first we practise to deceive" which is from Marmion. 

[cintinative]

18 minutes ago, annegables said:

It has chapters like: "When in doubt, It's from Shakespeare", "...Or The Bible", "It's more than just rain or snow",  "Is that a symbol", "Never stand next to the hero", "If she comes up, it's baptism", "Yes, she's a Christ figure, too", and "It's never just heart disease...and rarely just illness". This book was helpful and funny. I got to see so many things I had missed in books I have read.

 

 

I was just on Amazon and he has a new book coming out in May: "How to read nonfiction like a professor" 

 https://www.amazon.com/How-Read-Nonfiction-Like-Professor/dp/0062895818/ref=sr_1_3?crid=YO3MF6T997KB&keywords=how+to+read+literature+like+a+professor&qid=1580687260&sprefix=how+to+read+literat%2Caps%2C172&sr=8-3

[annegables]

1 minute ago, cintinative said:

 

I was just on Amazon and he has a new book coming out in May: "How to read nonfiction like a professor" 

 https://www.amazon.com/How-Read-Nonfiction-Like-Professor/dp/0062895818/ref=sr_1_3?crid=YO3MF6T997KB&keywords=how+to+read+literature+like+a+professor&qid=1580687260&sprefix=how+to+read+literat%2Caps%2C172&sr=8-3

Amazon should pay SWB a commission...

[matrips]

My three took TGC 1 in 8th grade because their lit teacher at our coop didn’t come back and I was scrambling.  I am so glad she didn’t now!  TGC was their favorite class!  They are still in touch with some of their classmates as well.  

But mine love to read, are good readers, and had always done a lit class. It was just their favorite part of school.

at the time, I didn’t know they’d be going to high school, but as soon as that decision was made by dh, I let the kids just study what they wanted for the rest of the year.  It would be their last chance for several years to truly make their own choices. They made some interesting choices! 

[Hadley]

I am now trying to talk my future engineer into staying home an additional year so that he can do a year of Great Books with Anne of Green Gables.  What a fabulous idea!  Sadly, he is not jumping at the opportunity...

I shall now follow this path with my beagle, and all who shall come after her.  Alas, I am out of children...

So many books...so little time...so very sad...

[annegables]

1 hour ago, Hadley said:

I am now trying to talk my future engineer into staying home an additional year so that he can do a year of Great Books with Anne of Green Gables.  What a fabulous idea!  Sadly, he is not jumping at the opportunity...

I shall now follow this path with my beagle, and all who shall come after her.  Alas, I am out of children...

So many books...so little time...so very sad...

When I ponder heaven, it is filled with books.