High School Science-what to choose after the big 3

[ShepCarlin]

So, I'm trying to be proactive and start my planning for the 2020-21 year. My oldest (16) will be a junior next year. His plan is to be a biology major in college with an emphasis in herpetology. He has already had the following science classes for high school: Honors Biology, Physics, and Chemistry. I'd hoped he would take a DE class in either Biology or Chemistry next year but he needs College Alg as a prereq. He won't take that until at least Spring 2021. So what do we do? We are secular homeschoolers. He'd love to do a deep dive into herpetology (he is already a certified master herpetologist) but I don't know how we'd come up with a curriculum. I don't want to waste his time doing something like Astronomy or Human Anatomy as I think we'd be just checking off a box. I feel like it's probably staring me in the face. He is currently helping a PhD student with his research and he volunteers at our zoo. But I don't know if/how I could turn these experiences into a class? He helps the PhD student about once every 6-8 weeks and the zoo is at least 1-2 days a month. 

[8filltheheart]

What level math is your student taking this yr?

An ecology course might suit his interests.

[Lori D.]

2 hours ago, ShepCarlin said:

...My oldest (16) will be a junior next year. His plan is to be a biology major in college with an emphasis in herpetology. He has already had the following science classes for high school: Honors Biology, Physics, and Chemistry. I'd hoped he would take a DE class in either Biology or Chemistry next year but he needs College Alg as a prereq...
... He'd love to do a deep dive into herpetology (he is already a certified master herpetologist) but I don't know how we'd come up with a curriculum...
...He is currently helping a PhD student with his research and he volunteers at our zoo...He helps the PhD student about once every 6-8 weeks and the zoo is at least 1-2 days a month...
... But I don't know if/how I could turn these experiences into a class?  

You might discuss with fellow WTM board dmmetler -- her DD has been pursuing herpetology since she was 11yo, and has been taking dual-enrolled college courses since she was 12yo. She might have some ideas for you about how to combine activities with a text to create your own Herpetology course for next year's science credit.

Otherwise, you might do another high school science course -- in Advanced Biology or Zoology. You might check out PAGE 5 of the "High School Motherlode #2" thread, pinned at the top of the high school board for ideas for the Zoology. Here are the 2 threads linked in that pinned thread:

High school level Zoology
High school Zoology

[BusyMom5]

There are sometimes lower level Bio classes that use Accuplacer or ACT scores for placement,  maybe look again

My other thought is Environmental Science.   I think I'm leaning toward that next year.  It does have a lot of Biology in it, a little ecology, and some earth science all mixed in.

[Guest]

As far as additional classes: My DD has done biochem, epidemiology, animal behavior, cognitive science and neuroscience while in high school (after the big 3).  She did an in depth study on entomology and invertebrate biology, plus some comparative zoology A&P in middle school.  All were done with college resources, and with either a local mentor or an online one. 
 

Agricultural science is another option-many schools dump wildlife bio in Ag Science, and ag often has a lower entrance level. We don’t have a commutable ag program, but many of the schools that do a lot of nice herp work are ag schools. 

You might want to look into summer field station courses that give college credit. The ones for college/grad students typically require a college transcript to get in as a high school student (DD is applying for a few this summer), but there are a few for high school students, like https://smconservation.gmu.edu/programs/high-school-summer-programs-for-college-credit/ That would give him a 4th science on his transcript, and having a college science class on his transcript might help open doors for other programs. 
 

Given his background, I’d also have him join SSAR or Herpetologist’s League and start looking at the journals as to what schools are doing the kind of work he wants. The International Herpetological Symposium and Joint Meeting of Icthyologists and Herpetologists also have grants for high school students to attend their professional meetings in the summer. It is highly likely that he could connect with someone who would be able to mentor him through a research project or get him involved in research (which would be a good next science), and it’s also a good way to really get a solid look at the herp schools that have research programs, and, especially,those that support undergrad research. Of the two, JMIH is more academic, and IHS is more practical (tends to be more herpetoculture), but there is a lot of overlap, and IHS has been getting really good keynotes. IHS also provides a higher level of support for their selected students, up to covering full expenses, while the JMIH grants usually only cover registration. 

In addition, one thing we’ve realized is that all labs/PI’s are not created equal-and one of the easiest ways to see which labs are good ones is to see them at the conferences and talk to people. 
 

 

Edited January 28, 2020 by dmmetler

[Guest]

I will also add-at DD’s mentor’s recommendation, Herpetology is an extracurricular for her, but she has had mentored  projects, where she was the PI that ended in a conference talk that could easily have been a high school credit had we wanted to go that route. She has also been an assistant on multiple projects (probably similar to what your DS is doing), and those get stuck as volunteer work. Because she has been mostly focused on this one area, she doesn’t have as much outside of it as some kids, so spreading the herp stuff around (where she has outreach work, paid work, volunteering, conferences and projects on her CV,  etc) is better than making it a high school class. The exception will be anything for college or graduate credit, which we may hit this summer, depending on which programs sen ends up doing. 

[Farrar]

Could he take Connie's Biochem class or would the math be preventative there too? There are several online neuroscience or cognitive science courses online. I also think it is okay for him to have a class that's Herpetology. He probably has a better handle on the resources. Mostly I'd just listen to dmmetler's recommendations!

[Guest]

Also, your DS may not have to take college algebra, only place out of it. My DD has been able to take classes that require prereqs based on ACT score, even though I've had her take the prereqs anyway (I figure high school is a great time for college algebra, statistics, English Comp 1 and 2, etc, and that way she won't hit the having to go back and do an early prereq because whatever school she attended didn't accept her placement the same as the local college did). It's worth it to ask, especially since he should have recommendations showing that he is more than capable of college biology.  Chem for science majors does generally require more math. And you do want to make sure he does the science majors version. Some schools try to push DE kids into non-major, which would get a science on a high school transcript, but probably be easier than what he's already done.

Edited January 28, 2020 by dmmetler

[ShepCarlin]

Thanks for the great responses! He is planning on attending the IHS meeting this summer (we live in the Atlanta area) and is applying for their Jr. Herp. award. His math skills are still not awesome-I'd say just your average bear. He is currently taking Geometry this year using Teaching Textbooks. He should be finished with that and starting Alg II in March. Since he is the way he is in math, I do want him to take a college algebra class and not CLEP out. If he goes slow and steady in math, he does fine. Unfortunately, it looks like taking that route may bite him in the college sciences in terms of progress, but I'd rather he have a good foundation in math than be in over his head. Yes, dmmetler, I worry about him getting popped into a non major class for science, good point. Currently, our plan is he will attend DE classes (Comp I, Gov't, College Alg) at the local technical college his junior year. Then DE at Kennesaw State his senior year. He just missed acceptance to KSU DE by 10 pts for the math on his SAT. dmmetler, are y'all attending IHS this year? If so, we should try to meet up. 

[Guest]

Animal Behavior Society is in Knoxville, so we’ll likely do that one this year, since DD is most interested in ethology/behavioral ecology. Her mentor is a lizard behaviorist, and has recommended ABS as a good conference, and we just got back from WCH9-and it is likely that the big US conferences will be largely redundant this year. 
 

The good news is that, honestly, bio doesn’t require much math. If he enters a 4 year program ready for calculus, he will likely be where most other students are, and one thing my DD has been recommended is NOT to go much beyond Calc BC level, because often the schedule is set up so all the classes fit, and being ahead on math can leave you needing to get math credits (since, unless you go somewhere that guarantees credit, placement is more likely) that don’t fit into the schedule. 

Edited January 28, 2020 by dmmetler

[daijobu]

20 hours ago, ShepCarlin said:

I'd hoped he would take a DE class in either Biology or Chemistry next year but he needs College Alg as a prereq. He won't take that until at least Spring 2021. So what do we do? 

 

1 hour ago, ShepCarlin said:

His math skills are still not awesome-I'd say just your average bear. He is currently taking Geometry this year using Teaching Textbooks. He should be finished with that and starting Alg II in March. Since he is the way he is in math, I do want him to take a college algebra class and not CLEP out. If he goes slow and steady in math, he does fine. Unfortunately, it looks like taking that route may bite him in the college sciences in terms of progress, but I'd rather he have a good foundation in math than be in over his head. 

 

I think I'm confused what college algebra is.  Is that the same as algebra II?  I'm surprised that someone who seems on track (geometry sophomore year seems fine) is not able to enroll in DE bio or chemistry.   I know for chemistry you need a solid understanding of logs (for pH), but not really sure about biology, except perhaps unit cancellation or something.  

Maybe you want to double check those prerequisites (or just educate me).  If that prereq is real, maybe he can take a placement test in lieu?

[Guest]

College Algebra/Trig at my DD's school is more like "applied topics in algebra and trig"- lots of problem sets from different disciplines. DD says there is quite a bit that she hadn't had in that way in AoPS, although none of the math was new. 

[Lori D.]

2 hours ago, daijobu said:

I think I'm confused what college algebra is.  Is that the same as algebra II? 

My understanding is that:
- high school Algebra II is a review of Algebra I topics, plus new topics
- College Algebra content can vary from college to college
- College Algebra typically covers high school Algebra I and Algebra II topics, at the much faster rate of 1 semester;
- College Algebra often often goes into more depth for some of the Algebra II topics
- College Algebra often covers additional topics beyond Algebra II, that are covered in high school Pre-Calculus
- if the student has completed Algebra I, Algebra II, and Pre-Calculus, the student will have covered all the topics that will show up in College Algebra

Edited January 28, 2020 by Lori D.

[Dicentra]

6 hours ago, Farrar said:

Could he take Connie's Biochem class or would the math be preventative there too? There are several online neuroscience or cognitive science courses online. I also think it is okay for him to have a class that's Herpetology. He probably has a better handle on the resources. Mostly I'd just listen to dmmetler's recommendations!

Thought I'd pop in quickly to say that my organic chem/biochem course requires no math.  Zip.  Zilch. 🙂  It does require the memorization of large amounts of material and the ability to visualize abstract molecular structure in 3-D based on 2-D representations, though.  I know - seems weird that a post-AP level chemistry course requires no math.  The higher level chem courses that will require higher level math would fall under the umbrella of physical chemistry or modern chemistry.  Organic chem and biochem will also require some math once you reach higher levels and begin to specialize but intro organic or biochem courses won't require any math even when taken at college. 🙂

[Kareni]

On 1/28/2020 at 9:58 AM, daijobu said:

I think I'm confused what college algebra is.  Is that the same as algebra II? 

Lori already gave some information above. College Algebra does seem to vary from place to place.

My daughter took the following two math classes at the local community college ~ College Algebra (Math 111 here) and Trigonometry (Math 112 here). The prerequisite for College Algebra was completion of Algebra II. Trigonometry required completion of both Geometry and Math 111. Both College Algebra and Trigonometry used the same textbook: Precalculus by Sullivan.

Regards,

Kareni

[RootAnn]

One of my kids is thinking about taking an intro to Meteorology & Climatology class this summer as her 4th science.

[Guest]

It's also interesting to see what is available. There is a Seismology for non-majors that DD may take next year if she can get in, just because it sounds interesting, and is totally out of the regular path for a biologist.