I killed DD's love for writing...

[Porridge]

I killed my DD11's love for writing. She is a good writer, but this year has been saying she doesn't like it. I think part of it is that we are using Classical Composition - she loved the Fable and Narrative levels, but Chreia and Maxim this year has felt stiff and boring for her - perhaps too formulaic. But another huge factor, I'm sure, is that I overcorrected her. I don't have a good sense of how to grade writing (it's so subjective!) so I think she feels that her writing is never good enough. For things like mechanics (spelling, grammar, formatting), I don't have trouble. It is in areas like evaluating the strength of an argument, or the flow of ideas - I don't know how to give her constructive feedback without her feeling like she can't get it right. 

I'm thinking of giving her a month off of writing completely to let her detox a bit. Is that a good or bad idea? Any other advice or suggestions for how to help her regain enjoyment for writing? Are there curriculums that are more "fun" that I could use to help respark some interest? 

[8filltheheart]

Can you give her some creative assignments? Investigative reporting, writing missing scenes from stories, plays, PowerPoints, dioramas, oral reports......

[Shoes+Ships+SealingWax]

A break is fine, but afterwards you’ll still need a new strategy to keep from turning this one-off derailment into a cycle. After taking a rest, I would recommend selecting a set number of errors you’ll point out per composition. First, I would make sure to point out several things she has done well, then I’d recommend 2 or 3 improvements, focusing on any errors made repeatedly in the same work. I also like 8’s idea about easing back in with some more creative, “lower-stakes” assignments - or even allowing her to choose what she’d like to work on. 

[Little Green Leaves]

On a total side note - I sometimes wonder whether we home schoolers overplay the idea that we can "kill" kids' love for things. 

I agree that it's a bad idea to be overly critical or to assign tons of busywork, but I don't know if that actually kills anyone's love of anything. I mean, my third grader will grumble when he feels overworked. On days when he has too many math problems to solve, he'll complain that he "hates math." The first time I heard that I freaked out and I beat myself up for killing his love of math. Then I noticed that when his work is over, he goes and does something absurdly math-y for fun. So in his case at least, the "hate" isn't permanent, it's just a response to the moment. Obviously I do take his protest on board and I try to make things more fun, but I also keep in mind that kids use dramatic language.

Either way, I'm enjoying this thread for the ideas about writing! I really like Spudater's point about how a less personal and less creative writing program could actually be easier to work together on.

[EKS]

As a writer myself, I am going to go out on a limb here and say that real academic writing is not an enjoyable process.  It is incredibly difficult and painful.  However, once the active writing part is over, I feel enormous satisfaction at having written.  My point here is that the "enjoyment" she was experiencing may have been a function of the writing demands being easy, and that as it gets harder, the less enjoyable it is going to be.

That said, writing programs can contribute to writing angst.  I recommend ditching your program and just having her write about things she is learning.  The book Engaging Ideas would be an excellent resource for you if you decide to take this approach (and even if you don't!).

[Shoes+Ships+SealingWax]

15 minutes ago, Little Green Leaves said:

On days when he has too many math problems to solve, he'll complain that he "hates math." The first time I heard that I freaked out and I beat myself up for killing his love of math. Then I noticed that when his work is over, he goes and does something absurdly math-y for fun. So in his case at least, the "hate" isn't permanent, it's just a response to the moment.

Hah - my Maths DS does this exact thing with Beast Academy from time to time. One day I called him out on it super dramatically - “But you haaaaaate Math, remember?!” & now anytime he goes to say it he remembers that moment & can’t keep a straight face. 😂 Its turned into a running joke & as a bonus the laughter breaks up his tension over whatever he is wrestling with at that moment.

[Porridge]

4 hours ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

Can you give her some creative assignments? Investigative reporting, writing missing scenes from stories, plays, PowerPoints, dioramas, oral reports......

I have tried giving her more leeway and creativity in writing. Poems, news articles, stories, "writer's choice..." all suggestions are met with a frown and a "Do I have to?"

 

1 hour ago, Little Green Leaves said:

On a total side note - I sometimes wonder whether we home schoolers overplay the idea that we can "kill" kids' love for things. 

I agree that it's a bad idea to be overly critical or to assign tons of busywork, but I don't know if that actually kills anyone's love of anything. I mean, my third grader will grumble when he feels overworked. On days when he has too many math problems to solve, he'll complain that he "hates math." The first time I heard that I freaked out and I beat myself up for killing his love of math. Then I noticed that when his work is over, he goes and does something absurdly math-y for fun. So in his case at least, the "hate" isn't permanent, it's just a response to the moment. Obviously I do take his protest on board and I try to make things more fun, but I also keep in mind that kids use dramatic language.

 

 

So putting 8's and Little Green's input together, is it possible that some of the "hating" is just either a) feeling overworked or b) tween-angst? If it's overwork:  I've already cut what I considered non essentials (vocab, copywork, a US History thread). She is doing Intro to Alg B (AOPS Online) and that's a heavy work load, but when I tried to cut some subjects to give her more room for that, she protested and got mad at me. If it's tween-angst, I need some advice on how to set reasonable limits and standards for interaction. I worked so hard last year crafting a school plan that I thought she'd love, based on her interests. (I modeled it after 8's Homeschooling at the Helm). She is basically miserable and sour half the time.  This is clearly now deviating away from just hating writing...  

[Porridge]

2 hours ago, Spudater said:

I could’ve written this a couple years ago. My memory is a little hazy but I think I did give my dd a little time off. Then we switched to WWS. There was a lot less conflict with that program because the writing assignments aren’t very creative (So it’s less personal) and there are very specific rubrics to meet. I tried to offer little to no criticism that year except to point out when and where she wasn’t meeting the rubric. Eventually by some process of WWS improving her skills, my teaching improvingby forcing myself to think a LOT about why things sounded “off” to me, getting through the worst of puberty, etc. we are now able to work together a lot better and actually aren’t using a curriculum. And to my surprise, this summer she got addicted to creative writing and has written half a dozen YA novels for fun (which Iam not allowed to read).  So, don’t lose hope, it’s unlikely you’ve actually killed it!  It may just be sulking and playing dead. 😉

I have WWS sitting on my desk right now! I worried that it would be too dry (not fun enough) but I also like how clear the rubrics and expectations are, so that will keep me from over-criticizing and also teach me what appropriate expectations are for her age.  I didn't want to shock her with that behemoth of a book right now, given her negativity towards writing, but I am thinking about switching over at some point. 

I've also just taken a look at Writing and Rhetoric - their presentation of the material is much more "fun" than Classical Comp.

My eventual goal was to write across the curriculum but I'm not sure how to get there. And I really hope she can enjoy writing  / school again.

[Porridge]

1 hour ago, EKS said:

As a writer myself, I am going to go out on a limb here and say that real academic writing is not an enjoyable process.  It is incredibly difficult and painful.  However, once the active writing part is over, I feel enormous satisfaction at having written.  My point here is that the "enjoyment" she was experiencing may have been a function of the writing demands being easy, and that as it gets harder, the less enjoyable it is going to be.

That said, writing programs can contribute to writing angst.  I recommend ditching your program and just having her write about things she is learning.  The book Engaging Ideas would be an excellent resource for you if you decide to take this approach (and even if you don't!).

I have Engaging Minds and started reading it (2 chapters in so far). I LOVE the ideas, but still don't have a good sense of how to implement it. (Guess I need to finish the book).  I  did try having her write about the things she is learning. I gave her options to do written narrations, poems, news articles, etc but she pretty much frowns on all of the suggestions...

You make a great point that there will be difficult aspects to achieving mastery and enjoyment of any skill. I try to remind her ala growth mindset, but maybe I'm doing it incorrectly, she's not buying it.

[Porridge]

by the way, wish I could hug and thank you each in person.

[EKS]

19 minutes ago, JHLWTM said:

You make a great point that there will be difficult aspects to achieving mastery and enjoyment of any skill. I try to remind her ala growth mindset, but maybe I'm doing it incorrectly, she's not buying it.

I wouldn't expect a young person to have the perspective necessary to understand that doing hard things can be satisfying after the fact.  It takes a combination of gaining enough expertise doing the hard thing that your efforts actually amount to something worth feeling satisfied about and enough experience in the world to have faith even in the midst of being mired in struggle that the satisfaction will eventually come.

[Little Green Leaves]

1 hour ago, JHLWTM said:

I have tried giving her more leeway and creativity in writing. Poems, news articles, stories, "writer's choice..." all suggestions are met with a frown and a "Do I have to?"

 

 

So putting 8's and Little Green's input together, is it possible that some of the "hating" is just either a) feeling overworked or b) tween-angst? If it's overwork:  I've already cut what I considered non essentials (vocab, copywork, a US History thread). She is doing Intro to Alg B (AOPS Online) and that's a heavy work load, but when I tried to cut some subjects to give her more room for that, she protested and got mad at me. If it's tween-angst, I need some advice on how to set reasonable limits and standards for interaction. I worked so hard last year crafting a school plan that I thought she'd love, based on her interests. (I modeled it after 8's Homeschooling at the Helm). She is basically miserable and sour half the time.  This is clearly now deviating away from just hating writing...  

I remember being miserable and sour AT LEAST half the time when I was 11 years old. You really can't blame yourself or your curriculum for that! Does she have specific complaints or is she more just grumpy / rebellious / getting a kick out of bashing authority? That's how I was... Maybe you can tell her that if she can get her work done with a decent attitude until spring break, then you'll sit down together to discuss changes to the curriculum? 

I think it's amazing that she wanted to KEEP her academic subjects instead of letting you cut them. Wow! That speaks so well to the power of home schooling.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 27, 2020 by Little Green Leaves

[Junie]

As far as too much editing, I have found it helpful to tell my kids that everyone needs an editor.  I think I once read that Dr. Seuss refused to use an editor, but pretty much every professional writer has one.

And usually (ime), more editing is because the teacher/editor knows the writer's potential.  More editing is not necessarily because there is so much wrong, but because you know that she has the power to fix it.  Explain to your daughter that you see her potential to be a great writer and you want to help her get there.

[8filltheheart]

It is so hard to understand root causes when you are not actually involved in the scenario. I have kids where complaining can mean exhaustion, overwhelmed, burned out, etc, But I also have kids where complaining is a character issue.....could be stubbornness with a side of laziness thrown in or could be hormonal anger/resentment, or even just general bad attitude. How I parent in each scenario is different and again even more different for each individual child.

Not doing an assignment is never an option in our homeschool. I do modify assignments, but I never completely eliminate them.  (Sort of like always following through with what I say when parenting a child.) I offer more scaffolding, sitting with them through it if neccessary, if they seem overwhelmed. I extend due dates.  I make it more fun if they are burned out. I double down and may even double the assignment if it is pure laziness. There are dozens and dozens of possibilities bc I know my kids' behaviors and can pretty accurately assess where the attitude is coming from. 

But bad attitude if it is pure attitude......that is something I dont tolerate in relation to schoolwork bc school is such a large part of how we live. I make their life pretty uncomfortable until they reform their will. 😉

 

 

[Critterfixer]

Just as a writer, it's absolutely easy to kill a creative spirit with too much feedback at once. I often find that a compliment sandwich works wonders--telling the person how well they did with certain things and more importantly, why. Then they know what works and how they did it. With negative feedback, it helps to take it in levels, and phrase the feedback as questions: When I read this, I got this impression. Was that your intention? Or When I read this, I feel it could be stronger. Consider adding this or that. And when you are done with the negative feedback, conclude with more compliments.

It's also okay to be done with an assignment that isn't "perfect". There's no such thing as the perfect paper or perfect story. And if you overwork an assignment, that can kill any desire to go on, because one knows that the same thing will happen the next time. If it helps, remember the story about the pots, and the lesson of quantity over quality. Just writing, assessing, fixing limited issues, and moving one, thus completing a number of projects, helps a writer improve far more than reworking the same project over and over again.

Just my two cents. And I'm a creative writer, not an academic one, which probably influences my opinion.

Edited January 28, 2020 by Critterfixer

[Porridge]

On 1/28/2020 at 6:27 AM, Critterfixer said:

With negative feedback, it helps to take it in levels, and phrase the feedback as questions: When I read this, I got this impression. Was that your intention? Or When I read this, I feel it could be stronger. Consider adding this or that. And when you are done with the negative feedback, conclude with more compliments.

It's also okay to be done with an assignment that isn't "perfect". There's no such thing as the perfect paper or perfect story. And if you overwork an assignment, that can kill any desire to go on, because one knows that the same thing will happen the next time.

Wise words. Thanks, Critterfixer. I like the idea of phrasing negative feedback as a question. I tried the compliment sandwich technique (start with somethign good, then give the negative, then end with something good) but DD just focuses on whatever was negative. The question technique is intriguing because it helps her to think critically about the issue. 

[Critterfixer]

21 hours ago, JHLWTM said:

Wise words. Thanks, Critterfixer. I like the idea of phrasing negative feedback as a question. I tried the compliment sandwich technique (start with somethign good, then give the negative, then end with something good) but DD just focuses on whatever was negative. The question technique is intriguing because it helps her to think critically about the issue. 

This is a common technique in critiquing to help move the focus away from the idea of something being "wrong" and putting the emphasis on what the writer was actually trying to say. I find it very helpful in diffusing the highly personal nature of critique and in creating a better atmosphere of working to improve the content via the writer's own voice and ideas.