I don't get women.

[Katy]

5 hours ago, Seasider too said:

 

And.... I experienced the same thing when we moved to a city in the upper plains. Lasted less than two years there. 

Mean girls are everywhere. It’s just harder to navigate when they’re in your family.

ETA as I said upthread, there are a lot of stereotypes associated with the south....

Anyway, I wish y’all would drop the idea that this only happens in the south. 

 

Mean girls are everywhere.  But it's a different, socially sanctioned flavor in the South.  I've lived all over the country and it is distinctly different there. It isn't just a stereotype, it's a cultural difference. 

[G5052]

Yes, social conventions and family. As a young person, I was completely oblivious. As a senior citizen now, I don't care. There are ugly women at every stage of life. 

Certain family members no longer have anything to do with me, and in retrospect, it was inevitable because they never liked people different than them. I am different. And there are people I was once closer to that I am no longer close to. And I have newer friends that I'm already very close to even though we've only known each other for a few years. I'm going to dinner with some of them tonight.

Showing my age, aren't I? 

Edited January 28, 2020 by G5052

[Katy]

12 hours ago, MissLemon said:

If you live in a small Texas town and want your children to have friends, there are social conventions you have to adhere to, otherwise your kids will be shunned. There are certain organizations in town that my child would have zero hope of ever making any kind of achievement in, because we aren't in the "in" crowd.  The same kids from the same families win all the awards and get their names in the newspaper every.single.year.   There families have been here for generations and there is a lot of social clout in being able to say you are an Xth generation Texan.  

Like, you can go to whatever public event the mean girls might be attending, but no one will talk to you. Book club, community choir, exercise classes, library programs, PTA, church groups, homeschool groups (THE WORST FOR THIS BEHAVIOR!!!)...you are technically a member, but you won't get info on upcoming meetings, collaborations for projects, etc. 

There is also a debutante ball at a local venue, which I find hilarious because this is fecking ranch country. There's a cattle auction every Wednesday in town and a chicken processing plant not far from here, but yes, let's all pretend to be society ladies in fancy ball gowns and tiaras. 🙄

There was a similar dynamic in Alabama.   

 

 

This was my experience growing up in North Florida too.  I was very aware of it because my mom made faux pas all the time.  She was a Yankee, but Daddy was beloved by everyone and determined to teach us to "play the game" so watching the dynamics was interesting growing up. When they divorced my stepmother was definitely the mean girl type. Watching her definitely gave me the social skills to fit in anywhere, but also the knowledge to know women who aren't part of those circles have genuine friends.  Those mean girls/women do not, not in the same way.

[Katy]

3 minutes ago, Seasider too said:

 

Same. It’s everywhere. Lucky for you haven’t experienced it elsewhere. Southerners (and New Yorkers) are just the easiest to make fun of because of their other quirks. 

 

I have experienced it elsewhere.  It's just never as pervasive, nuanced, or normal elsewhere.

[KungFuPanda]

7 hours ago, Islandgal said:

 

I agree.

As far as I can tell, there is a social hierarchy even on this board. 

 

7 hours ago, Scarlett said:

So true.  Lol

Maybe this is why I don't see mean girl behavior to the degree described around me.  I don't even KNOW what the social hierarchy is on this board and I've been on it for about 15 years.  I know that certain posters irritate others more frequently but I'd be hard pressed to draw up a chain of command if it really does exist.  🤣

I think the real answer is that I live in a town populated by a lot of transplants and enough people and opportunities that you can form your own tribe without putting up with wackadoos.  It seems that activities are just run more fairly around here too.  It would be a public embarrassment to double down on out-of-line mean behavior.  I think it's just not rewarded in the same way.  There are always at least two sides to everything,  plenty of people on each side, and nobody cares who your family is/was.

 

13 hours ago, MissLemon said:

If you live in a small Texas town and want your children to have friends, there are social conventions you have to adhere to, otherwise your kids will be shunned. There are certain organizations in town that my child would have zero hope of ever making any kind of achievement in, because we aren't in the "in" crowd.  The same kids from the same families win all the awards and get their names in the newspaper every.single.year.   There families have been here for generations and there is a lot of social clout in being able to say you are an Xth generation Texan.  

Like, you can go to whatever public event the mean girls might be attending, but no one will talk to you. Book club, community choir, exercise classes, library programs, PTA, church groups, homeschool groups (THE WORST FOR THIS BEHAVIOR!!!)...you are technically a member, but you won't get info on upcoming meetings, collaborations for projects, etc. 

There is also a debutante ball at a local venue, which I find hilarious because this is fecking ranch country. There's a cattle auction every Wednesday in town and a chicken processing plant not far from here, but yes, let's all pretend to be society ladies in fancy ball gowns and tiaras. 🙄

There was a similar dynamic in Alabama.   

 

 This is just silly, AND crazy.  This dynamic only works if the "underlings" go along with it.  It seems that even a small group of people could spin off and host their own activities.  Even in the smallest of towns, there ARE other people.  It doesn't sound like a healthy environment in which to raise children.

 

 

[GoodGrief]

35 minutes ago, Katy said:

 

I have experienced it elsewhere.  It's just never as pervasive, nuanced, or normal elsewhere.

 I don't know. I was raised in the Deep South, but have lived in quite the variety of places at this point. People are people are people. Definitely happens everywhere. I supposed perceptions of "worse" may vary but I haven't seen one population that does it better than another. My most recent (and honestly memorable) "mean girl" experience was with a woman who was raised in a wealthy family in Mexico. She had the behavior down to a science, and it would have been fascinating if I (and ultimately my daughter) hadn't become the target.

Was visiting a friend in the Nice Upper Midwest last month, and the stories she had in her small town were...wow! It's life.

[GoodGrief]

10 minutes ago, KungFuPanda said:

This is just silly, AND crazy.  This dynamic only works if the "underlings" go along with it.  It seems that even a small group of people could spin off and host their own activities.  Even in the smallest of towns, there ARE other people.  It doesn't sound like a healthy environment in which to raise children.

 

 

True, but I think that the behavior often goes hand in hand with narcissism or borderline personalities. They can be very charming and it can take time for the mask to come off. The targets are frequently socialized to avoid gossip and to "be nice". Other "nice people" don't want to get in the middle of what they see as a two way conflict. A lot of damage can be done to various relationships before the truth is revealed.

In small towns there's only so much spinning off you can do, especially when it comes to specific interests.

Edited January 28, 2020 by GoodGrief

[BlsdMama]

On 1/26/2020 at 10:23 PM, LucyStoner said:

 

Exactly.  

Objectively, men are known to engage in levels of meanness that warrant criminal convictions at much higher rates than women yet we have more gendered terms for unkindness in women than we do for the same in me.  Thinking about it, most of the terms we use for jackass type behaviors in men are just as likely to be used for women but we have a whole set of terms we just used for bad behavior in women.  Both men and women get called bullies and jerks.  Catty, bitch and mean girl though...yeah, we basically only use those for women and girls.  

This.  

And more interesting is in a conversation about cattiness and bitchiness, we'll turn on a hair and go along.  The irony is fascinating. 

Aside from this, I don't know what one can do.  If one chooses to play the game, then one is bound by the rules surrounding the game unless they are strong enough to change the game.  Doesn't sound like that's the case and doesn't sound like she's unwilling to play.  I'm very sorry for her.  It would be a painful existence.

ETA: That sounded cold and I didn't mean it to be.  I guess here's what I'm saying.  These women are adroit at playing the game.  They don't want equals.  #1 only wants to be #1.  #2 doesn't know how to become #1 and thus is content to not rock the boat and be #3.  The minions are happy to belong to the circle.  And, if a group must have hierarchy and an "elite" then it must have a lower class.  It is unlikely for her to move from her position and likely they will seek out ways to keep her in that position.

There is nothing, to my knowledge, that you can do from any distance and be effective.  Because, if you said something for a moment, #1 knows how to make it hurt someone else (very effective tactic to train you) and she knows the other won't stand up.

But I have to ask myself, what can you do to empower your sister so that she recognizes she could rise above this? Truly living for the mani/pedi each day and going to social functions where your purpose is to be decorative cannot be that fulfilling?  Can we not expand her views? Or move away from it? It sounds stifling and unhealthy.  While I understand this is stereotypical south, the fact exists that educated women, women with backbones and brains, do live there and thus there is a society that exists outside of this bubble.

Edited January 28, 2020 by BlsdMama

[Islandgal]

 

43 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

Oh but not YOU, just *other* people in general from that area 🤣

 

(couldn’t resist after that American tourist stereotype awful thread)

You should have resisted. That was unkind to Thatboyofmine, she didn't deserve to be on the receiving end of your cutting wit. She had nothing to do with that other awful thread.

[KungFuPanda]

8 hours ago, emba56 said:

Ahh, Deep South. I suspected as much but didn’t want to ask. In my limited experience, even nice women from the South are a little more prone to cattiness. I assume it has something to do with the socialization of girls down there. I’m from Texas, the northern part and definitely not the Deep Southern part, and I don’t notice it from women around here much.  But if that’s where she’s from, I agree with PP, there are some catty good manners that will help her defend herself. If she’s not fluent in them yet it might help to intentionally observe others to pick up the skills. I’m not socially gifted and that’s the only reason I can pass as someone not raised by wolves. 🙂 

Bless your heart. 

[Meriwether]

35 minutes ago, Islandgal said:

 

You should have resisted. That was unkind to Thatboyofmine, she didn't deserve to be on the receiving end of your cutting wit. She had nothing to do with that other awful thread.

I believe AM was poking fun at the stereotyping, not Thatboyofmine.

[Hadley]

 I have read along for years on this board because I have found no other group of people who share so freely such a wealth of experience with education. I admire so many posters here at the WTM.

However, I have posted very little.  Perhaps I’m a bit of a mouse.  I have posted very little because of my belief that I am everything many of you on this board despise:  I am a conservative Christian from Texas.  I have friends in real life from many faiths, and many walks of life.  I have lived all across the United States, and met many wonderful people. Everywhere.

It truly saddens me that some people and places may still be openly mocked and stereotyped and no one bats an eyelash.  

This thread, and some of the hurtful things in it, will serve to remind me to be kind to EVERYONE.  Sometimes we all need a reminder, so thanks for that.  The irony is that I would be delighted to have any poster from this board over to my home for coffee.  I think there’s some good in all of us...even those of us who grew up in the south.

 

 

 

Edited January 28, 2020 by Hadley

[Scarlett]

2 hours ago, KungFuPanda said:

 

Maybe this is why I don't see mean girl behavior to the degree described around me.  I don't even KNOW what the social hierarchy is on this board and I've been on it for about 15 years.  I know that certain posters irritate others more frequently but I'd be hard pressed to draw up a chain of command if it really does exist.  🤣

 

 

Well I guess that is what I really mean. ...that there are posters who irritate others often and a few posters who seem to be offended by every post.    It if there is a chan of command I would appreciate a p.m so I can behave accordingly.  It might explain a lot. 
 

🤣

[Scarlett]

18 minutes ago, Hadley said:

 I have read along for years on this board because I have found no other group of people who share so freely such a wealth of experience with education. I admire so many posters here at the WTM.

However, I have posted very little.  Perhaps I’m a bit of a mouse.  I have posted very little because of my belief that I am everything many of you on this board despise:  I am a conservative Christian from Texas.  I have friends in real life from many faiths, and many walks of life.  I have lived all across the United States, and met many wonderful people. Everywhere.

It truly saddens me that some people and places may still be openly mocked and stereotyped and no one bats an eyelash.  

This thread, and some of the hurtful things in it, will serve to remind me to be kind to EVERYONE.  Sometimes we all need a reminder, so thanks for that.  The irony is that I would be delighted to have any poster from this board over to my home for coffee.  I think there’s some good in all of us...even those of us who grew up in the south.

 

 

 

Oh I am definitely the kind of person many on this board despise.  Obviously I keep posting anyway. And the more you post the more you will find kindred souls.  Some voices are louder than others....doesn’t mean that is all that is here.  

I don’t see none being mean on this thread though.  They are poking fun at a stereotype.  

[Shoeless]

4 hours ago, Katy said:

 

This was my experience growing up in North Florida too.  I was very aware of it because my mom made faux pas all the time.  She was a Yankee, but Daddy was beloved by everyone and determined to teach us to "play the game" so watching the dynamics was interesting growing up. When they divorced my stepmother was definitely the mean girl type. Watching her definitely gave me the social skills to fit in anywhere, but also the knowledge to know women who aren't part of those circles have genuine friends.  Those mean girls/women do not, not in the same way.

Yep, I am a Yankee from NY, and I have learned how to "play the game", as you say. I know which ladies are interested in friendship and which ladies are the "Bless your heart" type.  There are some people here that will never, ever accept me because I am not from here and I don't attend their Church. I don't bother with those ladies, if I can help it. 

The behavior happens everywhere, (technicians in veterinary hospitals are horribly cliquish, men included), but I have found it to be more extreme in small, southern towns. It's baked into certain communities. #NotAllTexans #NotAllSoutherners #NotAllWomen

[Shoeless]

9 hours ago, parent said:

Wow.  That's really awful.  It makes me concerned about a friend moving to the deep South this spring.

We live in a smallish community, well north.  There is money and such, but a lot of blending and worth is based on the individual.  Free spirit is encouraged and valued.

I guess more than humidity is stifling in the south.

It varies by area. I have lived in a lot of places, both north and south.  Texas is mostly fine. I have friends here and generally like it here. Alabama and Georgia (not including Atlanta), were tough, socially. 

But then again, New Englanders can be pretty tough on outsiders, too. 

[Tree Frog]

17 hours ago, MissLemon said:

If you live in a small Texas town and want your children to have friends, there are social conventions you have to adhere to, otherwise your kids will be shunned. There are certain organizations in town that my child would have zero hope of ever making any kind of achievement in, because we aren't in the "in" crowd.  The same kids from the same families win all the awards and get their names in the newspaper every.single.year.   There families have been here for generations and there is a lot of social clout in being able to say you are an Xth generation Texan.  

Like, you can go to whatever public event the mean girls might be attending, but no one will talk to you. Book club, community choir, exercise classes, library programs, PTA, church groups, homeschool groups (THE WORST FOR THIS BEHAVIOR!!!)...you are technically a member, but you won't get info on upcoming meetings, collaborations for projects, etc. 

There is also a debutante ball at a local venue, which I find hilarious because this is fecking ranch country. There's a cattle auction every Wednesday in town and a chicken processing plant not far from here, but yes, let's all pretend to be society ladies in fancy ball gowns and tiaras. 🙄

There was a similar dynamic in Alabama.   

 

This isn't limited to TX or the south. Part of my growing up years were in both a small town and a mid sized city in Colorado and the social hierarchy was alive and well. I lived in upstate NY in a university town as an adult and experienced the same thing. I believe it's a small town thing, not just a southern thing. 

[BlsdMama]

I've thought on this thread last night and this morning, turning it over and over. 

I think the OP's original intent was try to formulate a plan to change the dynamics that exist.

I've taken an awful lot of leadership and psych classes... And here I sit as a SAHM, lol, so bear that in mind.  But, from an academic level, there is recognition of ingroups and outgroups.  There ARE ways for your sister to make inroads, but it requires a savvy and maturity she may or may not possess?  Essentially the way to form respect within a group, assuming after all this that you still care to gain this respect, is to either increase status or be indispensable.

Status - obviously income.  Another obvious for women is physical attractiveness.  For men? Height.  It's wh y some men in leadership roles wear inserts in shoes, not even kidding.  Education is another.  Particular jobs increase status - medical careers and education careers, sometimes regardless of the education credentials.  And maybe this all seems ridiculous and I'm certain many can think of exceptions to the rule, but these DO apply overall.

But what do you do if you're not the most attractive, or terribly short, or lack education? Obviously these things are malleable to a degree.  Beyond this though, there are ways to increase your status and respect levels.  She really needs to discover where she excels and put her focus in that.  She can also use pronouns like we.  Women are (more) critical of women who use the "I" pronoun.  Interesting, isn't it?  Even in professional and academic circles this has profound impact.  The perception of a man can be individual strength, but a woman is perceived as a selfish cat if she uses the pronoun I too much.  When she succeeds in an arena and uses her talents for social good, they will be essentially "forced" to be respectful in public arenas.  Let me give you an example.  Let's say she's an avid gardener.  She devotes her time volunteering at the local hospital, planting the circle out front and the library - whichever example.  The fact is unselfish deeds that "showcase" (for lack of a better word) her skills and adeptness do buy her a level of respect in society.  As a side note, the more she gets outside of herself and her standing and devotes her time and energy to beyond herself, she will carry herself differently and not want their approval as much too.

She should also seek/make connections either in the lower echelon of the circle or outside of the circle.  Let's be honest, how big is the circle?  A dozen women?  There are surely more women than this in this town.  My second daughter is socially savvy.  Because of her involvement in a specific activity, she finds herself in a circle that is pretty tight.  She has an aquaintance who is not socially savvy who really wants to be a part of this circle and keeps inviting them to her house.  More recently, Liz and another friend thought it would be nice to accept one of the invitations.  She was surprised when the rest of her friends didn't sacrifice one night to spend time with the girl who is obviously lonely and seeking friendships.  I'm glad she's going, but I also have to wonder why this girl is so adamant to make friends in this particular circle when there exists a larger circle of people in the homeschool program who are "unattached" to a particular circle and would accept the invites gladly? 

We, as women, have a tendency to seek approval from particular ingroups and it's disconcerting.  I know I've done it -even without recognizing it in myself at the time.  Just yesterday we had a home nurse here to do some testing.  She was, hands down, the most rude woman I have ever had in my home.  I said something quietly to my daughter at the edge of the room they were in (a joke, not about the nurse) and she giggled.  I would bet that whisper and giggle was perceived as a "mean girl" action.  Or maybe I've just been thinking too much on this post, lol!!!