I don't get women.

[MaBelle]

Why, for Pete's sake, do a lot of women choose to be mean girls instead of supporting each other.  Really, you could at least not be mean.  My sisters in law are ruthlessly and mercilessly digging on my poor baby sister.  Granted, baby sis can be overly dramatic and annoying but that is no reason to be hateful.  I am just so mad for her sake, and other sis and I don't live in the same town so that we could support her.  (I did what I could last week when I was there, but now I'm not there)  Both sils are social big sh!t$ in that town and making little sis miserable.  

I can only support her over the phone and hope what goes around comes around.

[Katy]

IME people like this are deeply insecure so they have an inner need to compete for social dominance.  Was the mother in law a narcissist?  I see this behavior more in adult daughters of narcissists than average people.

Theoretically social hierarchies are built into all animal life.  Jordan Peterson, however you feel about him, has an entertaining chapter in 12 Rules for Life about how social hierarchies even exist in lobsters.

 

[MaBelle]

Well, one sil I have always said was one of the sweetest people I've known, but her dd and her grandmother were pure bitch.  I never got it until just last year she started showing her true colors.  Mean girls are taught by their mothers.

 

[LucyStoner]

I think women tearing apart women is just a byproduct of sexism and misogyny in our culture.  "Mean girls" internalize a lot of negative messages about being female and then project that crap out on other women in an attempt to prove that they are better or more worthy that women in general.  Some of it is a competition thing but a large part of it I think is a desire to demonstrate that they are better than the average woman because because they hold such a low view of average women.  

Yeah, I'm a feminist but no surprises there with a user name like Lucy Stoner, 😛 

[MaBelle]

Well unfortunately sis is dealing with fallout from something I said, which (considering it's me) was very mild.  I simply said to one sil that if I had been treated as my sister had been treated I would have reacted the same way.  That was it, no blame, no naming names. 

She wanted me to join in dissing sister and didn't like it when I called her on the bullying.  So she took it to a whole 'nother level.  

I don't live there and even  if I did I don't play these games.  But it's important to little sis.

[MaBelle]

4 minutes ago, OKBud said:

Yeah, not like men, who are well-known for never being mean.

Perhaps, but IME men ain't got nothing on nasty cattiness over women.   One brother of mine might take sides and try to justify his wife, but the other will just ignore the whole thing.

[Ausmumof3]

8 minutes ago, MaBelle said:

Perhaps, but IME men ain't got nothing on nasty cattiness over women.   One brother of mine might take sides and try to justify his wife, but the other will just ignore the whole thing.

Ahh I reckon that we don’t have a monopoly on mean stuff as a gender.  My dh can be way more bitchy than me.

however on the mean behaviour thing I hear you had a day of it at church yesterday and totally over it.  This is why I just hibernate and don’t do people.

[May]

Sometimes I’m sad I don’t have more women friends to call and chat with, go out to lunch with etc.. Then I read this😢women can be so mean.

[alisoncooks]

I can honestly say I haven't experienced "mean girl" drama since high school. I never understand when grown women complain of this -- I think some people are just jerks and that includes men and women. 

[Janeway]

1 hour ago, LucyStoner said:

I think women tearing apart women is just a byproduct of sexism and misogyny in our culture.  "Mean girls" internalize a lot of negative messages about being female and then project that crap out on other women in an attempt to prove that they are better or more worthy that women in general.  Some of it is a competition thing but a large part of it I think is a desire to demonstrate that they are better than the average woman because because they hold such a low view of average women.  

Yeah, I'm a feminist but no surprises there with a user name like Lucy Stoner, 😛 

Why do men get the blame for everything? As a feminist, I would think you would want women to own their behavior. 

[Janeway]

1 hour ago, MaBelle said:

Well unfortunately sis is dealing with fallout from something I said, which (considering it's me) was very mild.  I simply said to one sil that if I had been treated as my sister had been treated I would have reacted the same way.  That was it, no blame, no naming names. 

She wanted me to join in dissing sister and didn't like it when I called her on the bullying.  So she took it to a whole 'nother level.  

I don't live there and even  if I did I don't play these games.  But it's important to little sis.

Are these your brothers’ wives? If so, what have they been doing in all this? My husband and I pretty much agree about each other’s siblings, but neither of us have treated the siblings poorly and if either of us did, I am sure there would be words.

[Tanaqui]

Janeway, I don't see how you can possibly interpret LucyStoner's comment as blaming men. Not with an honest reading, anyway.

Edited January 27, 2020 by Tanaqui

[MaBelle]

15 minutes ago, Janeway said:

Are these your brothers’ wives? If so, what have they been doing in all this? My husband and I pretty much agree about each other’s siblings, but neither of us have treated the siblings poorly and if either of us did, I am sure there would be words.

Yes, these bitches are married to my brothers.  Bro #1 is so neutral, I think being married to his wife is so stressful he just does his own thing and tunes her crap out.

Bro #2 thinks his wife is faultless in everything and backs/believes everything she says.

[Janeway]

44 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

Janeway, I don't see how you can possibly interpret LucyStoner's comment as blaming men. Not with an honest reading, anyway.

I don’t see how you can say it doesn’t.

[HS Mom in NC]

Assuming yours isn't a JAWM or rhetorical question, Several factors can contribute to that:

1. Personality types who are competitive, not agreeable.  Statistically most women rate higher in agreeability and fewer rate lower in competitiveness, so it stands out more when a woman is competitive and agreeable women tend to react stronger to them than competitive men would.

2. Social hierarchical subcultures. Small town petty hierarchies are hold overs from old world British and German society,  so they would be more prone to that kind of thing. There are other subcultures prone to this. People interested in social status would be inclined to play this pathetic game.

3. Family culture dynamics. Some families don't have a culture of emotional discipline where gossiping and criticizing family is forbidden. Over sharing, over-stepping, and poor conflict resolution skills are the norm, so it spills over to their in-laws after marriage.  Family cultures that support siblings "taking sides" in the ongoing fight are a problem too.  It's a form of old world feuds that hasn't died out like it should have.

4. Poor boundary establishment and enforcement. Some victims will allow this kind of conflict to go on because they're unwilling to do what it takes to put an end to it.  They tell themselves it's better to continue in it than ending the relationship if it doesn't stop. Usually the victims are overly idealistic about what's gained by allowing the behavior to continue and overly fearful what will be lost if they enforce the boundary. Some people have a victim mindset because they equate being a victim to being innocent/righteous, which is mostly true, but they don't understand or they don't want to admit  their contribution to continuing it when a way to end it exists.

If she were my sister, I would: 

1. Tell her that she's going to have to set a boundary and enforce it with them to end it.  If they don't respect the boundary, she'll have to be prepared to enforce limited contact or end contact entirely. If she chooses not to, I would explain that she is choosing to continue in it and bears partial responsibility for the extension. 

2. If I witnessed something like this first hand in person or because mean girl tries to tell me about it, I would say something like, "If you have a personal issue with sis, you'll need to address that with her personally in a constructive way, and not drag others into it. This is not the time and place. If this continues I'll leave and I suggest everyone else do the same." to the person instigating it. If it doesn't stop I'm out of there and the instigators won't be invited to the family functions I host. If someone else hosts I'll either decline the invitation or I'll go, but I'll repeat this approach if someone instigates again.

3.If sis refuses to set a boundary and enforce it but continues to complain to me about the situation I'll ask, "What are you going to do about that?" Then wait silently and expectantly for an answer. If she says she doesn't know I'll repeat my advice to set and enforce boundaries and point out that she's choosing to participate in it and that choosing pity for her sufferings over earning respect through enforcement is choosing the easy way to avoid responsibility.  Then I'd change the subject.  If she keeps complaining I'll tell her I've said all I have to say on the topic and change the subject again to something I think she'd like to talk about.  If she keeps it up I'll end the conversation. Drama wants and needs an audience. I don't give drama my attention.

Edited January 27, 2020 by Homeschool Mom in AZ

[MaBelle]

Boundaries for bullies.  IOW, sis will have to decline to be part of the family because of mean girls.   Say what you will, she loses either way and it sucks.  These two are relentless and masters at misinformation and manipulation.  

[Farrar]

1 hour ago, Janeway said:

Why do men get the blame for everything? As a feminist, I would think you would want women to own their behavior. 

"Mean girl" behavior is individual women doing individual bad stuff to each other. They're all responsible for their own behavior.

But our culture - as expressed by both men and women - is sexist and encourages everyone - men and women - to see women as less than. Thus, the behavior has a root in trying to prove that you're better than "women" because "women" are so low. That's not "blaming men." It's "blaming culture."

I would say it's comparable to looking at an impoverished community and crime. Saying that the conditions of poverty, such as lack of basic necessities, can lead to higher rates of crime does not then mean that we should excuse a murderer who grew up poor. It's just saying that practically speaking, if we want less of that, we should think about changing the conditions. If we want less mean girl behavior, rather than trying to fix every individual mean girl, we should think about combatting sexism overall to change the conditions that help lead to mean girls.

Edited January 27, 2020 by Farrar

[LucyStoner]

2 hours ago, Janeway said:

Why do men get the blame for everything? As a feminist, I would think you would want women to own their behavior. 

 

To respond to this, I would have to accept that misogyny in our culture is only perpetuated by male people.  Which clearly from my post, is not my view.  I think that women being nasty to each other is often rooted in sexism.  I think that women's bad behavior being focused on while the meanness of men is minimized is also rooted in sexism.  Men behave in many aggressive and "mean" ways regularly.   They are convicted of more crimes for a reason.  Yet somehow, we don't run around calling men catty, bitchy or "mean boys".   

[ktgrok]

One theory is that mean compete and get social status from their occupation and their money, not from day to day social interactions or family pecking order. So they have mean behavior too, but it is expressed in the workplace, not in family dynamics as much. 

Women don't gain much in social status from their job, and instead "compete" in social arenas. 

[Katy]

If you want a solution other than boundaries, we need more information.  What happened?  And what area of the country does she live in?  Responses are going to be somewhat different for the rural South than rural New England or the Pacific North West.

[LucyStoner]

3 hours ago, OKBud said:

Yeah, not like men, who are well-known for never being mean.

 

Exactly.  

Objectively, men are known to engage in levels of meanness that warrant criminal convictions at much higher rates than women yet we have more gendered terms for unkindness in women than we do for the same in me.  Thinking about it, most of the terms we use for jackass type behaviors in men are just as likely to be used for women but we have a whole set of terms we just used for bad behavior in women.  Both men and women get called bullies and jerks.  Catty, bitch and mean girl though...yeah, we basically only use those for women and girls.  

[Emba]

3 hours ago, MaBelle said:

Perhaps, but IME men ain't got nothing on nasty cattiness over women.   One brother of mine might take sides and try to justify his wife, but the other will just ignore the whole thing.

Oh, some of the most dramatic drama I’ve ever been involved in during my adult life was instigated by a man.  In fact, it was the only real interpersonal drama I’ve had as an adult that was due to cattiness and gossip and not just crossed wires and/or temporary Grouchiness.

I hate drama. I somehow manage to have plenty of female friends who don’t do drama either.  And I’ve never seen the sort you’re describing in person, from men or women. I’m quite sure that it happens, I’ve just been lucky in my in-laws and I choose friends carefully. It really sucks that your sister is stuck with family members like that. 

 

[Tanaqui]

1 hour ago, Janeway said:

I don’t see how you can say it doesn’t.

 

Because everything in that post had to do with how women treat other women and nothing had to do with how men treat anybody?

[Rosie_0801]

1 hour ago, LucyStoner said:

Objectively, men are known to engage in levels of meanness that warrant criminal convictions at much higher rates than women yet we have more gendered terms for unkindness in women than we do for the same in me.  Thinking about it, most of the terms we use for jackass type behaviors in men are just as likely to be used for women but we have a whole set of terms we just used for bad behavior in women.  Both men and women get called bullies and jerks.  Catty, bitch and mean girl though...yeah, we basically only use those for women and girls.  

 

Even individuals engaging in a certain type of unpleasant behaviour will be called a "nice guy" if they are a bloke and crazy bitch if they are a woman. 

[TravelingChris]

2 hours ago, Farrar said:

"Mean girl" behavior is individual women doing individual bad stuff to each other. They're all responsible for their own behavior.

But our culture - as expressed by both men and women - is sexist and encourages everyone - men and women - to see women as less than. Thus, the behavior has a root in trying to prove that you're better than "women" because "women" are so low. That's not "blaming men." It's "blaming culture."

I would say it's comparable to looking at an impoverished community and crime. Saying that the conditions of poverty, such as lack of basic necessities, can lead to higher rates of crime does not then mean that we should excuse a murderer who grew up poor. It's just saying that practically speaking, if we want less of that, we should think about changing the conditions. If we want less mean girl behavior, rather than trying to fix every individual mean girl, we should think about combatting sexism overall to change the conditions that help lead to mean girls.

there is no correlation to poverty or low income to crime.  What there is a correlation is with fatherless boys, in particular, and crime.  Other factors that go into  it are high self esteem, and since it is late, I cannot remember all of them.  Mom only families tend to be more impoverished than two parent families.

[MaBelle]

Sil #1 came from money and is very territorial about her social standing.  Sil #2 came from the poor side of town and quite frankly married up.  She is #1's minion.  Deep South.  The pecking order is vicious.  These are women who spend their days in the beauty parlors and manicure places.  They both look like runway models.  Living examples that beauty is only skin deep.

Sis could kowtow and really, I think she will.  The other choice is to be ostracized from the social scene.  Not a popular choice for women in their circle.  

ETA- this whole thing came to a head when sister tried to help out at Thanksgiving dinner and "messed up" the seating arrangements #2 had in mind.  When Christmas rolled around she was publicly put in her place by #1.  Petty shit.

Edited January 27, 2020 by MaBelle

[LucyStoner]

1 hour ago, Rosie_0801 said:

 

Even individuals engaging in a certain type of unpleasant behaviour will be called a "nice guy" if they are a bloke and crazy bitch if they are a woman. 

Yep.  "But he's so nice."

[MaBelle]

1 hour ago, HeighHo said:

 

Having similar personal experience, realize that using one's manners will always trump mean gals.  They know their shallowness. Holidays are a stressful time, and its not the time to 'help' unless the hostess welcomes the help.

 Your sister needs the phrase "I beg your pardon" along with the facial expression to go with it.  She must maintain her cool and force this bully to use manners and accept her as an adult. Use this phrase in public situations.

In a 1:1 setting, she needs the phrase "Is this the type of person you want to be" or the phrase "Hmmm, has someone left their manners at home?" as she begins to pick the bone and asssert herself as an adult to be respected. 

She is already excluded, and its on public display. Nothing to lose, respect to gain.

Your question was 'why'?  because that's all they have.  

Good idea.

[HS Mom in NC]

11 hours ago, MaBelle said:

Boundaries for bullies.  IOW, sis will have to decline to be part of the family because of mean girls.   Say what you will, she loses either way and it sucks.  These two are relentless and masters at misinformation and manipulation.  

No, that's all or nothing thinking and not at all what I said. 

She can spend time with family members who are not mean girls by hosting them at her house and in public places,  in smaller groups, one on one, or having another family event where the mean girls aren't invited to at a time that never forces other family members to choose between them.  I did this with a now former SIL.  For the last couple of years I didn't attend events she hosted, instead I hosted things she wasn't invited to and some family members went to both mine and hers, and some only came to mine. I did this with a growing play group that had a particularly aggressive boy who continuously, intentionally harmed littles, and whose mother didn't do anything to even try to modify his behavior, even when we took her aside privately and asked her to please do something about it.  I have no idea who continued at the old standing date play date, but  quite a few attended mine on a different day at a different location and we didn't have that problem anymore.

Yes, no matter what she does it will suck because means girls suck.  This is not the sweet by and by, this is the nasty now and now, as a former pastor of mine would say.  It can either suck with her limiting contact with these mean girls and she can retain her dignity and develop the self respect that comes with enforcing healthy boundaries, or it can suck by continuing to volunteer to be treated badly and continue in this bizarre family dynamic.  Life is full of hard choices, that's why God made us to grow into adults.

[Selkie]

16 hours ago, MaBelle said:

Well, one sil I have always said was one of the sweetest people I've known, but her dd and her grandmother were pure bitch.  I never got it until just last year she started showing her true colors.  Mean girls are taught by their mothers.

 

Dh's family is like this. His mom was nasty - people called her "Dragon Lady", lol - and her mom, sisters, and daughter are/were just the same.

[Katy]

10 hours ago, MaBelle said:

Sil #1 came from money and is very territorial about her social standing.  Sil #2 came from the poor side of town and quite frankly married up.  She is #1's minion.  Deep South.  The pecking order is vicious.  These are women who spend their days in the beauty parlors and manicure places.  They both look like runway models.  Living examples that beauty is only skin deep.

Sis could kowtow and really, I think she will.  The other choice is to be ostracized from the social scene.  Not a popular choice for women in their circle.  

ETA- this whole thing came to a head when sister tried to help out at Thanksgiving dinner and "messed up" the seating arrangements #2 had in mind.  When Christmas rolled around she was publicly put in her place by #1.  Petty shit.

 

Well frankly it's going to take some time because letting the insult get to her was a way your sister showed she's not #1's equal.  The money, the looks, the social standing in and of themselves don't matter.  Knowing how to either kowtow with intimidation or shirk it off is half the battle of social hierarchy.  The fact is in your family your sister was there first.  That's what matters when it comes to the two of them.

Ideally Sister wouldn't have let anyone put her in her place in the first place.  Ideally she would have raised one eyebrow and put an expression on that's halfway between a smirk and a smile and responded with a, "Bless your heart!," and went on to explain why exactly this was #1's fault instead of hers, with a good bit of condescending tone thrown in, and extra points if her eyes were genuinely twinkling with laughter.  Literally half the point of mean girl behavior is constant tiny little tests like this.  If you can put up with it you might fit in with the plastics. If you can dish it back with equal measure and no intimidation you might just be their new leader when the first one gets hit by a bus.

However... if your sister was raised in the South and she hadn't learned all of these things by high school, besting #1 in the hierarchy probably isn't something she's inclined to do. So if she wants to get back a little bit of dignity she can either figure out a way to slide a little joke in about not getting in the way of SIL's seating charts to: 1) Show that it didn't actually bother her, and 2) She considers SIL to be a bit bat-crap-crazy when it comes to this topic.  Or she can just decide to forgive them and rise above it, while not really expecting anything different in the future. That and make sure she has her own group of friends who look down on the runway model aesthetic with her.

[Katy]

3 minutes ago, parent said:

How bizarre.  I have never known adult women that acted like this.  Yes, in high school, but this is very foreign.  Southerners are supposed to be all hospitality and grace, but tired stereotype probably.  I am sorry for your sister's struggles.  It is hard when you are in the situation, but it is best to ignore or laugh.  Like when the SIL was upset about it.  I would laugh and say, "I probably will never do it your way.  You will have to set your own table at the next dinner.  I'll stick with what I know and (fill in the blank... bake pie, make punch)!"  Maybe add a Bless your heart.  

 

Hahaha.  Southern women might be taught about hospitality and grace, but all of that is served with a great deal of diplomacy.  And by diplomacy, I mean the nuanced ability to tell someone all of their faults without ever saying the words, just a slightly different tone and one raised eyebrow.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

The only thing I don't get about women is why anyone would sign up for this kind of dynamic, or choose to continue after the first few rounds.

I am very aware of the way that families can put a hold on people's lives, with this toxic "family first" ideal that means "stay in your place and be abused, so Grandma gets her Norman Rockwell Christmas" or whatever. I know it runs deep. I have BTDT.

But I'm also aware that it's possible to opt out. At some point, when you finally realize how toxic and stupid and harmful the environment has become, you have to make a choice as to whether you'll continue to participate or NOT.

And I can tell you that if you do get shunned from the family holidays over failing to prop up the Queen Bees how they like, it only hurts for the first couple of years.

After that, it feels like freedom.

If Little Sis complained to me that the other sisters treated her like crap, I would (after a decent interval of attempting to be a good listener), tell her to 

A. Make a choice to change the dynamic or leave it, and

B. Don't come crying to me, if you choose to let these people treat you this way. Don't keep telling me about it. But if you need help breaking free - if by no other means than making them permanently mad enough at you that you never get invited to Christmas anymore - in that case, my big mouth is available to ride shotgun. 

[catz]

12 minutes ago, Lang Syne Boardie said:

The only thing I don't get about women is why anyone would sign up for this kind of dynamic, or choose to continue after the first few rounds.

I am very aware of the way that families can put a hold on people's lives, with this toxic "family first" ideal that means "stay in your place and be abused, so Grandma gets her Norman Rockwell Christmas" or whatever. I know it runs deep. I have BTDT.

But I'm also aware that it's possible to opt out. At some point, when you finally realize how toxic and stupid and harmful the environment has become, you have to make a choice as to whether you'll continue to participate or NOT.

And I can tell you that if you do get shunned from the family holidays over failing to prop up the Queen Bees how they like, it only hurts for the first couple of years.

After that, it feels like freedom.

If Little Sis complained to me that the other sisters treated her like crap, I would (after a decent interval of attempting to be a good listener), tell her to 

A. Make a choice to change the dynamic or leave it, and

B. Don't come crying to me, if you choose to let these people treat you this way. Don't keep telling me about it. But if you need help breaking free - if by no other means than making them permanently mad enough at you that you never get invited to Christmas anymore - in that case, my big mouth is available to ride shotgun. 

Yes this.  Not to be completely snarky, but getting on the internet to do play by play on a situation complaining about women in general that doesn't involve you is queen bee behavior of a sort.  I invest zero energy in this type of thing and don't get drawn in.  There are a very small number of people who have personalities along these lines I don't gel with that I maybe see 2-3 times a year to keep the piece.  I always have my boundary and my pass the bean dip line in my back pocket for those occasions.  

[Katy]

3 minutes ago, FuzzyCatz said:

Yes this.  Not to be completely snarky, but getting on the internet to do play by play on a situation complaining about women in general that doesn't involve you is queen bee behavior of a sort.  I invest zero energy in this type of thing and don't get drawn in.  There are a very small number of people who have personalities along these lines I don't gel with that I maybe see 2-3 times a year to keep the piece.  I always have my boundary and my pass the bean dip line in my back pocket for those occasions.  

 

I don't think this is fair.  We can always learn more social skills. Wondering why someone treated someone you love badly, what to do about it, and how to prevent it in the future is perfectly fine, normal, and healthy behavior.  Social hierarchies are everywhere, even if you opt out of abusive environments or pretend they don't exist.

[catz]

2 minutes ago, Katy said:

 

I don't think this is fair.  We can always learn more social skills. Wondering why someone treated someone you love badly, what to do about it, and how to prevent it in the future is perfectly fine, normal, and healthy behavior.  Social hierarchies are everywhere, even if you opt out of abusive environments or pretend they don't exist.

Oh absolutely agree with all these.  I've also worked through plenty of relationships too over the years.  

[Lang Syne Boardie]

One way to help people work through it faster is to de-normalize it. "It's toxic, why are you there," is a good thing to put out there, even knowing that people will usually need months and years, maybe a decade, to actually break away. As a person who had to very painfully break away, I can say that the more I heard people just bluntly say, "Nobody deserves that; they're crazy so get out of there," the faster I was able to believe it.

The sooner that people like the OP (and I was like that) can be "given permission" to stop being the endless counselor and listening post for a toxic dynamic, the better. The sooner the better, that the de facto counselors of this world, learn to say, "No. That's enough. We already know the dynamic, and I'm not here for the stories of the unsurprising abuse. You know that I think you should go see a qualified therapist, which I am not, and I think you should make some moves toward getting out of there." 

And tell her you love her, and get off the phone.

This isn't pretending an abusive dynamic or a tricky social situation doesn't exist. It's setting a boundary, to not let it also take over your life and your relationship with Sis, AND it's teaching and modeling how to stop.

 

 

[SamanthaCarter]

Oops, just lurking. Didn’t mean to post. 

Edited January 28, 2020 by SamanthaCarter

[KungFuPanda]

I can't imagine what sort of social engagement is going down in public that a grown woman would have no choice but to put up with mean girl behavior.  What non-family events are these women attending that the sister even wants to, or is required to attend? If it's in private at family events, and she is clearly in the right, why is her family not sorting out the in-laws?  My brothers aren't the most refined gentlemen, but they wouldn't just ignore it if their wives were targeting a sibling.  My mother would certainly initiate a discussion and she's very non-confrontational. 

Usually when people tell stories with this dynamic they are talking about middle school girls. This is just nutty and not something I've seen in adulthood.  My daughter didn't even have drama like that in high school.

[mathnerd]

30 minutes ago, KungFuPanda said:

I can't imagine what sort of social engagement is going down in public that a grown woman would have no choice but to put up with mean girl behavior.  What non-family events are these women attending that the sister even wants to, or is required to attend? If it's in private at family events, and she is clearly in the right, why is her family not sorting out the in-laws?  My brothers aren't the most refined gentlemen, but they wouldn't just ignore it if their wives were targeting a sibling.  My mother would certainly initiate a discussion and she's very non-confrontational. 

Usually when people tell stories with this dynamic they are talking about middle school girls. This is just nutty and not something I've seen in adulthood.  My daughter didn't even have drama like that in high school.

It is nutty, but happens in my husband’s family on a daily basis where there are 9 women who are above age 75 and have done this all their life. Yes, they bitch about social status, the lack of it, the presence of it symbolized by the quality of diamonds a younger woman wears etc. etc. I refuse to engage or participate and have intentionally removed myself from that dynamic. But, not every woman can burn bridges when the relationship is based on such dynamics and bullying for which I feel sorry for the sister of OP.

[Shoeless]

1 hour ago, KungFuPanda said:

I can't imagine what sort of social engagement is going down in public that a grown woman would have no choice but to put up with mean girl behavior.  What non-family events are these women attending that the sister even wants to, or is required to attend? If it's in private at family events, and she is clearly in the right, why is her family not sorting out the in-laws?  My brothers aren't the most refined gentlemen, but they wouldn't just ignore it if their wives were targeting a sibling.  My mother would certainly initiate a discussion and she's very non-confrontational. 

Usually when people tell stories with this dynamic they are talking about middle school girls. This is just nutty and not something I've seen in adulthood.  My daughter didn't even have drama like that in high school.

If you live in a small Texas town and want your children to have friends, there are social conventions you have to adhere to, otherwise your kids will be shunned. There are certain organizations in town that my child would have zero hope of ever making any kind of achievement in, because we aren't in the "in" crowd.  The same kids from the same families win all the awards and get their names in the newspaper every.single.year.   There families have been here for generations and there is a lot of social clout in being able to say you are an Xth generation Texan.  

Like, you can go to whatever public event the mean girls might be attending, but no one will talk to you. Book club, community choir, exercise classes, library programs, PTA, church groups, homeschool groups (THE WORST FOR THIS BEHAVIOR!!!)...you are technically a member, but you won't get info on upcoming meetings, collaborations for projects, etc. 

There is also a debutante ball at a local venue, which I find hilarious because this is fecking ranch country. There's a cattle auction every Wednesday in town and a chicken processing plant not far from here, but yes, let's all pretend to be society ladies in fancy ball gowns and tiaras. 🙄

There was a similar dynamic in Alabama.   

 

[Guest]

4 hours ago, MissLemon said:

If you live in a small Texas town and want your children to have friends, there are social conventions you have to adhere to, otherwise your kids will be shunned. There are certain organizations in town that my child would have zero hope of ever making any kind of achievement in, because we aren't in the "in" crowd.  The same kids from the same families win all the awards and get their names in the newspaper every.single.year.   There families have been here for generations and there is a lot of social clout in being able to say you are an Xth generation Texan.  

Like, you can go to whatever public event the mean girls might be attending, but no one will talk to you. Book club, community choir, exercise classes, library programs, PTA, church groups, homeschool groups (THE WORST FOR THIS BEHAVIOR!!!)...you are technically a member, but you won't get info on upcoming meetings, collaborations for projects, etc. 

There is also a debutante ball at a local venue, which I find hilarious because this is fecking ranch country. There's a cattle auction every Wednesday in town and a chicken processing plant not far from here, but yes, let's all pretend to be society ladies in fancy ball gowns and tiaras. 🙄

There was a similar dynamic in Alabama.   

 

Now I suddenly remember why I’m so glad to live well north of that nonsense. 

[Scarlett]

18 hours ago, Katy said:

 

I don't think this is fair.  We can always learn more social skills. Wondering why someone treated someone you love badly, what to do about it, and how to prevent it in the future is perfectly fine, normal, and healthy behavior.  Social hierarchies are everywhere, even if you opt out of abusive environments or pretend they don't exist.

Yes, this.  I don’t see the OP being a Queen Bee.  She has been on these boards a LONG time and she was venting to us about how poorly her sister was being treated.  And her comment about ‘why are women like this’ seemed to ME to obviously mean why do SOME women behave this way.  She obviously doesn’t think the entire female population behaves this way.  
 

I don’t know why some posters seem to rub so many people the wrong way.  

[Islandgal]

 

15 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Yes, this.  I don’t see the OP being a Queen Bee.  She has been on these boards a LONG time and she was venting to us about how poorly her sister was being treated.  And her comment about ‘why are women like this’ seemed to ME to obviously mean why do SOME women behave this way.  She obviously doesn’t think the entire female population behaves this way.  
 

I don’t know why some posters seem to rub so many people the wrong way.  

I agree.

As far as I can tell, there is a social hierarchy even on this board. 

[Scarlett]

3 minutes ago, Islandgal said:

 

I agree.

As far as I can tell, there is a social hierarchy even on this board. 

So true.  Lol

[Emba]

Ahh, Deep South. I suspected as much but didn’t want to ask. In my limited experience, even nice women from the South are a little more prone to cattiness. I assume it has something to do with the socialization of girls down there. I’m from Texas, the northern part and definitely not the Deep Southern part, and I don’t notice it from women around here much.  But if that’s where she’s from, I agree with PP, there are some catty good manners that will help her defend herself. If she’s not fluent in them yet it might help to intentionally observe others to pick up the skills. I’m not socially gifted and that’s the only reason I can pass as someone not raised by wolves. 🙂 

[MysteryJen]

I don't have experience in the South, but I do here- and I have seen and experienced "mean girl" behavior from adult women in lots of different settings- sports teams parents, homeschool groups, church... It seems to be a way that lots of women work- forming an "in-group" or clique and excluding new people or just people that are different or difficult.

I am honestly surprised that many people haven't experienced that since high school. I have seen it over and over. Even my dmil found this behavior in some groups at her retirement place.

[unsinkable]

17 minutes ago, Seasider too said:

 

And.... I experienced the same thing when we moved to a city in the upper plains. Lasted less than two years there. 

Mean girls are everywhere. It’s just harder to navigate when they’re in your family.

ETA as I said unthread, there are a lot of stereotypes associated with the south. But anywhere in the world that self-esteem and having access to the “best” opportunities is associated with social standing, you will find this behavior. I believe it’s not limited to women; men just do it in different ways. 

Personally I’ve found it worst in two general places. Geographically, smaller towns that do not have people regularly flowing through, as they would with corporate relocations, military transfers, etc. The other way is within organizations, wherein a child’s performance, and a parent’s ability to contribute to fundraising - like a sport, classical ballet, or theater - moms can be very defensive and territorial (this can also apply to adults, I dropped one museum education volunteer group because the adults were so competitive). I imagine in these situations, if someone feels they’ve been bumped off the top, there’s no other place to go. 

It’s sick, and sad, but very real. When I’ve been in circumstances like this, for my kids’ sake, I’ve kept my head down and just let the kids do their thing. If I encounter it in clubs, whatever, on my own, I find another place to invest myself. But if you’re married into it, that’s harder unless you want to ostracize yourself. And that’s sad, too. 

Anyway, I wish y’all would drop the idea that this only happens in the south. 

And drop the idea that only women do this.

In boys' sports...holy cow! Some male coaches and some dads...the power of the coach for playing  time, the jockeying of the dads to get into the coach's "Inner Circle," the dads of the top players only socializing at games with each other!

 And this ( the forming of exclusive power group/social hierarchy with coach) was almost universally *male based* in boys' sports, esp hockey and baseball.

Not to say that some moms weren't doing anything exclusionary. The first day on a new team I was told by a group of moms "Oh, you're the goalie's mom? You need to go sit by yourself so we can talk about your son."

[Scarlett]

7 minutes ago, unsinkable said:

And drop the idea that only women do this.

In boys' sports...holy cow! Some male coaches and some dads...the power of the coach for playing  time, the jockeying of the dads to get into the coach's "Inner Circle," the dads of the top players only socializing at games with each other!

 And this ( the forming of exclusive power group/social hierarchy with coach) was almost universally *male based* in boys' sports, esp hockey and baseball.

Not to say that some moms weren't doing anything exclusionary. The first day on a new team I was told by a group of moms "Oh, you're the goalie's mom? You need to go sit by yourself so we can talk about your son."

What?  That is an outrageous thing to say.  What the heck.  Did they laugh? Were they kidding?  Did you go sit by yourself?

As far as this thread...it is a topic about some women in the south.  I really doubt anyone believes those are those only humans behaving badly.  

[regentrude]

49 minutes ago, unsinkable said:

Not to say that some moms weren't doing anything exclusionary. The first day on a new team I was told by a group of moms "Oh, you're the goalie's mom? You need to go sit by yourself so we can talk about your son."

Where is the WTF emoji?