Help me compare these medieval/Renn/Reform. book lists

[cintinative]

To be honest, I know nothing about some of these titles. I am trying to evaluate the reading load of these two courses.  The TPS course also covers the Renaissance and Reformation period.  Wasko Lit has a separate course for Renaissance Lit.  I recognize more of the titles on the Wasko list, but that doesn't mean much.  How would you evaluate the difficulty of reading of these two lists? Wasko Lit has many more Shakespeare plays than the other does.  We have not yet read Shakespeare plays, but we have read the Leon Garfield versions and seen plays live at the local theater. I believe the only Shakespeare play on either list we have not seen live is Henry IV. 

Obviously, the approach taken will matter also. I think I can tell from the Wasko site what his approach will be. If the TPS approach is more toward literary analysis that would not be a great fit for my kid. We do have nice Socratic discussions (Center for Lit style) but he hates literary analysis (papers). I just sent an email to ask about the TPS approach. 

TIA to my fellow Hive-members. This is really not my area of strength. 

Wasko Lit: The Middle Ages (list)

Confessions, by Augustine (the Sarah Ruden translation)

Beowulf (Seamus Heaney translation

The Inferno, by Dante (John Ciardi translation)

The Canterbury Tales, by Chaucer (prologue and four tales)

 “Gawain and the Green Knight” (J.R.R. Tolkien translation)

The Once and Future King, by T.S. White

Le Morte D’Arthur, Sir Thomas Malory (short excerpts only)

Utopia, by Thomas More

Fierce Wars and Faithful Loves: Book I of Spenser’s The Faerie Queene, by Roy Maynard (Book 1 only)

Dr. Faustus, by Christopher Marlowe

Hamlet, by William Shakespeare

Macbeth, by William Shakespeare

Henry IV, Part 1, by William Shakespeare

Henry IV, Part 2, by William Shakespeare

Henry V: 1989 Film directed by Kenneth Branagh

A Midsummer Night’s Dream, by William Shakespeare

Shakespeare’s Sonnets (four total)

 John Donne’s Poetry (six poems total)

Metaphysical Poetry

• “To His Coy Mistress” by Andrew Marvell

• “To the Virgins” by Robert Herrick

• “To Althea” by Richard Lovelace

• “Why So Pale and Wan, Fond Lover?” by Sir John Suckling

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

The Potter's School Medieval, Renaissance and Reformation History, Lit and Comp (this is the Literature ONLY)

about 30 medieval Welsh, Irish, and Anglo-Saxon poems (all read in full)
Beowulf (read in full)
The Prose Edda (excerpts)
The Saga of the Volsungs (read in full)
Two mythological poems from The Poetic Edda: 1) The Voluspa and 2) Volundarkvitha (both read in full)
The Tale of Authun and the Bear (read in full)
Thidrandi Whom the Goddesses Slew (read in full)
The Song of Roland (read in full)
Three "lais" from The Lais of Marie de France: 1) The Lay of Lanval; 2) The Lay of Guigemar; 3) The Lay of Bisclavret (all read in full)
Sir Orfeo (read in full)
Boccaccio's Decameron (excerpts)
Chaucer's Canterbury Tales (excerpts)
Sir Gawain and the Green Knight (read in full)
The Pearl (read in full)
Dante's Inferno (read in full)
Dante's Purgatorio (excerpts)
Dante's Paradiso (excerpts)
Malory's Le Morte d'Arthur (excerpts)
Ariosto's Orlando Furioso (excerpts)
Erasmus' In Praise of Folly (read in full)
Thomas More's Utopia (read in full)
Assorted Italian, French, German, and English Renaissance poetry (all read in full)
Book III (The Tale of Britomart) from Spenser's Faerie Queene (read in full -- i.e. Book III is read in full)
Shakespeare's Macbeth (read in full)
 

 

[Lori D.]

No personal experience with either course provider, so I can't help with how either class is run, so my response is a total side note to your actual question... I  just wanted to say, yikes!

Just for comparison, I tend to have pretty typical (not super advanced) students in my high school Lit. & Comp co-op classes, and the year we do The Lord of the Rings + medieval Lit., we can only manage about 1/3 to 1/2 of the volume of either TPS list or Wasko Lit. list. We do:
-  the LotR trilogy
- a short story by Tolkien
- a few poems (3-6 poems, none longer than 1 page)
- Beowulf
- Macbeth
- 3-4 of the Canterbury Tales
- Sir Gawain and the Green Knight

And it is *tight* to get through all of that and have any time for digging into the works and learning a bit about the times, learning about literary elements and literature topics, and to discuss the works.

Obviously, YMMV, as you may have an advanced student who prefers reading widely rather than digging deeper. If that's the case, then either of the classes would work for your student. (If your student is not as interested in reading a high volume of heavy/classic Lit., then I would say either one of these classes has a likelihood of burning out a 9th grader, just as s/he's starting high school...)

The Potter's School class is a seriously big lit. list of difficult works, due to the distance in time/culture to us, as well as abstract themes in the works. TPS class has 20+ full works, and 6 excerpted works. The Wasko Lit. class is not quite as heavy, but, like TPS, still has some works that are much more typically done in a college course (Inferno, Mort d'Arthur, Fairy Queen, and Dr. Faustus). Even with fewer works, the Wasko Lit. class has enough works that you're not going to be spending more than 2 weeks on many of them (12 full works, 3 excerpted works, and 14 poems).

From the website description of the class, the Wasko Lit class lists the following as the student expectations:
- attend a one-hour, weekly, live course session
- complete each week's assigned reading
- take a short, online comprehension quiz
- answer a weekly, online discussion question
- submit two literary analysis papers and one creative project

TPS class lists more writing, but only 1 literary analysis paper (along with other types of writing). Not sure if "student will demonstrate understanding of poetry elements and structure" means answer a discussion question about that literary topic, or writing a literary element response paper...

Just a thought... since your DS has enjoyed Center for Lit, can you continue with that? BEST of luck in finding what works best for your student's needs and interests! Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited January 25, 2020 by Lori D.

[cintinative]

I don't know where to look for a less is more book list except maybe Angelina Stanford.

I possibly could pair one of her classes with outside writing (we need this) and do history at home.

I don't feel qualified to cover literature myself. The last I checked Center for Lit didn't cover literature by time period. I'm going to check. 

[cintinative]

26 minutes ago, Spudater said:

I don’t have a high schooler yet (next year! Ack!), but just for reference, I took a semester long class on Dante’s Divine comedy in college and it really took that amount of time to do it justice...there are so many references and so much symbolism, it’s not an easy read. I can’t imagine spending less than a month on the Inferno. Those lists look very heavy, especially the second one. FWIW, in my plan right now for high school I deliberately took Dante out of the year I planned for medieval/ren lit so I could give him his own semester senior year, bc it’s that good it’s worth it to me. Again, though, not speaking from experience. 

 

P.S. My oldest is going to be in 9th next year, so I am in the same boat as you. What are you planning to do for lit next year?

[Lori D.]

2 hours ago, cintinative said:

I don't know where to look for a less is more book list except maybe Angelina Stanford.

I possibly could pair one of her classes with outside writing (we need this) and do history at home.

I don't feel qualified to cover literature myself. The last I checked Center for Lit didn't cover literature by time period. I'm going to check. 

Just a thought, but Lit. is great whether "tied" to History time period or not.

At the high school level, you might look for ways to support your student's interests, for example. The best year of high school Lit. we did was the year we followed DSs' interests and made our own "Worldview in Classic Sci-Fi Lit."

Not suggesting you make your own if you don't feel able to oversee it, but uncoupling the Lit. from History allows you SOOOO much more freedom... That could allow DS to dig deep into an author or genre of high interest to him. Or sign up for an online class with a fantastic teacher, regardless of what "time period" the Lit. Or take a lit. class that is covering works from minority and ethnic authors, so you get a broader view than just traditional Western Civ./European historical authors. Or, take an online class that would really spark enjoyment from your student (which could lead to a lot more willingness and pleasure in WRITING about the literature 😉 ) with a Lit. selection like Steampunk, high-discussion/well-written Young Adult works, classic Fantasy and Sci-Fi, epics through the centuries, Gothic Lit., etc ...

Have you asked DS for his input? Is there some Literature that he would particularly enjoy studying next year? High school is a great time to start moving towards the student's interests, as the student tends to work harder -- and, when all the classes step up in rigor at 9th grade, it's nice for students to have some input on their schedules, since they're the ones having to put in all the time and effort. 😉

Best of luck in finding a good class fit for DS! Warmest regards, Lori D.

[Farrar]

I don't like either of them.

This is for a full year of literature? Each list has some things I like, some things I don't, but mostly just feels unbalanced for a high schooler. I am a huge believer in having kids read a lot of these things... but I also... I tend to think it needs to be balanced by more fun things. There's a taste in there, but so little. This is a lot of dense works. I mean, you just said your kid doesn't like literary analysis, but this is a year of literature for a kid who loves literature and wants to study it very deeply. So then what's the goal?

If I were to pick them apart more specifically...

The Wasko list is a little better overall to me. I like that it has Once and Future King (there's the fun!) and some of the Shakespeare is fun and good. Beowulf is a good pick too. And Sir Gawain. I like that the poetry is named... though that feels like it could be more. I am generally of the opinion that excerpts are fine for Utopia, Faerie Queen, and the Confessions... In fact, I don't think of The Confessions as being something for high school per se, though if you're coming from a religious perspective explicitly, then that changes that. It's a heck of a lot of Shakespeare too. And you've already seen most of them. I'm neutral on Faustus.

The TPS list has a few things I think are nice in excerpt. More people should read a bit of the Decameron. And it's a crying shame that Canterbury Tales isn't on the Wasko list in the first place. Macbeth is a good single Shakespeare if you do just one. Still got Beowulf. But several things are just odd to me. Like, all of In Praise of Folly? All of Song of Roland? All of the Saga of the Volsungs? Oh my. And the Eddas? Even more Dante. And  I mean... these things can all be enjoyable... they're all big stories. They're all important... but it does start to feel a bit obscure. More so than the Wasko list for sure. I mean, who reads some of these things these days? Like, the old Anglo-Saxon and Welsh poetry? No one but English majors and scholars. This list, overall, feels like it will become a bit of a slog unless a kid is super into medieval lit.

[cintinative]

Thanks @Farrar

That really helps.

I was kind of shocked about the TPS list. If you look at their website, it is not at all apparent that they are reading all of this.  I happened to email to ask which works were read in full versus excerpts because the listing of topics/tasks only listed excerpts for things like Beowulf.  So this is not at all what I expected to receive.  

I would say my son doesn't like literary analysis because he doesn't feel confident at it, and my bent is that I would much prefer to discuss a book than dissect it in a paper.  

I always told myself I wanted to do an aligning history with lit but it is getting so hard to figure out.

My current thoughts:  Angelina stanford lit plus writing somewhere and  history at home  OR CLRC GB (but oldest did GC1 last year and has said he wants to wait to cover ancients again).  

OR abandon my plan and  Lit with writing somewhere. We do like Center for Lit but I am unsure of the 1x/month meeting idea.

Sigh.

 

Edited January 26, 2020 by cintinative

[8filltheheart]

For perspective, I have given my kids credit for lit courses like an entire semester spent on War and Peace. My current sr and I are reading Paradise Lost right now. It is going to take us at least 5 weeks and we are reading it along with Anton Lessor reading it. (Love his reading!) We are pairing it with Lewis's The Great Divorce (which is a very easy read.) That will be followed with 2 weeks for her to complete her essay assignment on them. So 2 full months on 2 works plus essay.

Could we cover Paradise Lost faster? Maybe, but not with an depth of discussion or appreciation for the epic nature of the poem. At that pt, why bother with epic poetry instead of any twaddlish contemporary novel. Sort of like a glass of great wine vs water. Some things you savor and take in slowly.  😉

 

[Farrar]

I'm good with an in depth dive like 8fillstheheart mentioned or an important survey tour... I think they both have merit. I guess my question is still what your goal is. Like the CLRC Great Books list is even more intensively old texts that might be a slog for a kid who doesn't necessarily love literature per se. I have no idea what's on the Angelina Stanford class list. If your goal is to give him a thorough exposure to medieval literature without any real additional goals, then any of these will do it.

If I was going to spend a full year on medieval literature, I'd probably pick a small handful of things to read in full, a handful of things to read in excerpt along with some poetry. And then I'd couple it with a small handful of things that are modern but deeply influenced by medieval literature or history. The Once and Future King is one great example and there's lots of other fantasy novels that are as well. But there's also things that are modern retellings of Shakespeare by award winning authors. And there are some great historical fiction books. I'd just mix it up a little. But I get that you don't want to DIY it. It's tough.

If I had to pick one, I'd still vote for the Wasko list. But I also think it would be okay to pick something else. Like, what about doing one of the Roy Speed classes on Shakespeare to get a really deep dive on a Shakespeare play with outside guidance. And then also picking a few things to read at home and doing an outside writing class you feel good about? But again... depends on your goals.

[Lori D.]

Pretty much exactly what Farrar said was my thought about the lit. selections.
 

8 hours ago, cintinative said:

... I would say my son doesn't like literary analysis because he doesn't feel confident at it, and my bent is that I would much prefer to discuss a book than dissect it in a paper.  

... My current thoughts:  Angelina stanford lit plus writing somewhere and  history at home...

Sounds like a great plan. Her lit list looks great and her philosophy looks to align more with your goals for Lit. You could also include a few books -- or some short stories -- throughout the year that you and DS could read/discuss read together more informally and not worry about writing about them. They could be a variety of works and wouldn't have to match up with your history period, but rather be works that might get missed if you didn't do them otherwise.
 

For anyone else reading along in this thread, here is the Angelina Stanford's year-long Medieval and Renaissance Lit. class Lit. list and class explanation:

Beowulf (Burton Raffel translation)
Sir Gawain and the Green Knight (Burton Raffel translation)
Sir Orfeo (Tolkien Translation)
The Canterbury Tales (World Classics edition)
The Faerie Queene Book One by Edmund Spenser
Macbeth by Shakespeare

"The Less is More Approach:  In my classes, I prefer to teach students how to think deeply and engage thoughtfully with the ideas that have shaped us and the world. Therefore, I deliberately limit the number of works we cover.  This allows students to read slowly and truly contemplate what they are reading, rather than rushing through huge reading lists with very little understanding—or enjoyment. Alexander Pope famously wrote, “A little learning is a dangerous thing. Drink deep, or taste not…”  We drink very deeply. Students (especially those who are not as Humanities oriented) respond very well to the less is more approach.  It is a true delight to watch their confidence and excitement build as they begin to truly understand and enjoy intimidating old books. This class is primarily a class in learning how to read well. Therefore, there are only two small writing assignments--a midterm and a final. These are two short essays which allow a student to express his or her experience of reading and demonstrate a close and thoughtful reading of the text."

Edited January 26, 2020 by Lori D.

[RubyPenn]

My 9th grader is doing Middle Ages/Renn/Reformation this year.  I put together several sources that covers literature and history from this time period. 

Memoria Press 9th grade literature: (Along with Vita Beata online discussion group so I don't have to do it)

Beowulf

Sir Gawain and the Green Knight

Canterbury Tales selections

Shakespeare's Henry V

Old English and Medieval Poetry, Prose, and Drama

History:

Memoria Press:

Dorothy Mills Middle Ages set

Dorothy Mills Renaissance and Reformation Times set (they are coming out with this soon)

I'm pairing all this with Roman Roads Media's Year 3 Christendom lectures by Wes Callihan

I don't have my son watch every lecture, though.  RRM might be a good option if you don' t want to do these subjects yourself, and your child can earn two credits for the course.  It comes with DVD lectures, workbook, and reading assignments.  They have two reading lists to choose from, of which one is manageable.

 

[cintinative]

33 minutes ago, RubyPenn said:

  RRM might be a good option if you don' t want to do these subjects yourself, and your child can earn two credits for the course.  It comes with DVD lectures, workbook, and reading assignments.  They have two reading lists to choose from, of which one is manageable.

 

 

Thank you! All of us watched some sample videos for OWC and unfortunately my son didn't really like it. So far they haven't liked any curriculum that is video-based so I wasn't entirely shocked.  😃

[RubyPenn]

38 minutes ago, cintinative said:

 

Thank you! All of us watched some sample videos for OWC and unfortunately my son didn't really like it. So far they haven't liked any curriculum that is video-based so I wasn't entirely shocked.  😃

I hear you.  My son seriously dislikes the videos as well, but I bought them, so he's going to watch them.  At least my husband I can enjoy the education!