Menu
Jump to content

What's with the ads?

umsami

deleted topic

Recommended Posts

47 minutes ago, klmama said:

We're talking about a 10yo child.  In conservative religious circles people do not usually discuss sexuality with 10yo children except to inform them of what is considered right and wrong.  It's not terribly likely anyone has addressed his age group to let them know their options if they happen to feel attracted to someone else of the same sex.  

I think I must be missing something here. Doesn’t it follow from being taught that’s it wrong that you don’t do it? The only option is to not act on the attraction. Or I guess according to at least one poster, marry someone you are not attracted to. 

When I was raised Catholic and we were taught that sex before marriage was wrong, I took that to mean I shouldn’t do it, even if I was attracted to someone and felt like doing it. I’m not sure what else I could possibly have concluded from that teaching.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, Farrar said:

By age 10, a kid who is not in a sheltered community has definitely heard what gay is, is aware that sometimes slurs for being gay are bandied around, and is aware that some groups of people are intolerant of LGBTQ folks. And I'd be shocked if a 10 yo being raised strongly in a religion and going to a secular school with a diverse set of other kids did not know the gist of where his own religion stands on being gay.

As for living a life of abstinence because you're gay... oy. That's not acceptance. Some people choose abstinence for a host of reasons. But because of your sexuality is not a healthy reason to choose to have no romantic or sexual attachments in life. And study after study has shown the negative psychological effects of this.

????  This child announced he was gay.  Of course he knows what that means.  He's also Muslim, which is the key issue here.  Acting on same-sex attraction is considered wrong in his faith tradition; if that attraction continues, somehow the conflict will need to be addressed.  Abstinence offers a solution that doesn't require him to reject his faith. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, klmama said:

????  This child announced he was gay.  Of course he knows what that means.  He's also Muslim, which is the key issue here.  Acting on same-sex attraction is considered wrong in his faith tradition; if that attraction continues, somehow the conflict will need to be addressed.  Abstinence offers a solution that doesn't require him to reject his faith. 

Abstinence is not a solution that allows for psychological health. The way that some religious groups like to tell themselves that they’re okay with gay people just not “acting on it” is a distinction entirely lost on actual LGBTQ people. And one that - as I said in my earlier post - does not allow children to feel loved or accepted, which leaves them with further psychological scars.

Maybe this kid will change his mind. Young identities are in flux. But is that a gamble worth taking? For some families, the answer is yes, they would rather hope he’s not gay and continue with a faith that’s makes LGBTQ folks feel excluded. But the gamble is this kid’s psychological health and long term relationship with the family.

  • Like 9

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Farrar said:

Abstinence is not a solution that allows for psychological health. 

Celibate humans cannot be psychologically healthy?

  • Thanks 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, maize said:

Celibate humans cannot be psychologically healthy?

Not when they have to choose between celibacy or being rejected by their family.

  • Like 11
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Selkie said:

Not when they have to choose between celibacy or being rejected by their family.

Yeah, I understood her comment to be about this situation and in regards to other LGBTQ kids. I can't imagine it being healthy to tell a ten year old, "It's fine if your gay because you can just be celibate your whole life". I would think that could be quite damaging.

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Selkie said:

Not when they have to choose between celibacy or being rejected by their family.

How about young people who chose to follow their own sincere religious beliefs?

  • Like 7

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, maize said:

How about young people who chose to follow their own sincere religious beliefs?

I should have said abstinence that is forced or part of an impossible choice, as Selkie said. Choosing abstinence for all kinds of reasons can absolutely be fine and healthy.

I do not think it's possible for an LGBTQ person who is being told that it's abstinence or your faith and family to be able to make that choice in a healthy, free and clear way. 

  • Like 11

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Joker said:

Yeah, I understood her comment to be about this situation and in regards to other LGBTQ kids. I can't imagine it being healthy to tell a ten year old, "It's fine if your gay because you can just be celibate your whole life". I would think that could be quite damaging.

I wasn't thinking about the ten year old specifically, but given that religion is quite important to some ten year olds it is also potentially damaging to not present them with an option that would allow for both a gay identity and living within the prescribed bounds of their religion.

They obviously don't need to be making any permanent decisions at age ten.

Sexual identity is not the only significant human identity.

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, maize said:

I wasn't thinking about the ten year old specifically, but given that religion is quite important to some ten year olds it is also potentially damaging to not present them with an option that would allow for both a gay identity and living within the prescribed bounds of their religion.

They obviously don't need to be making any permanent decisions at age ten.

Sexual identity is not the only significant human identity.

I was thinking about a 10 year old and how you have no idea how they would truly take that idea. It could be they are thankful you put it out there but it could also be they come away feeling like that is what is expected to stay a part of the family and faith so they have to follow. I think it would be much wiser, and less damaging, to hold off on that line of discussion until older. 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, maize said:

Celibate humans cannot be psychologically healthy?

That explains the priests and preachers.

 

I KID.  Seriously; plenty of men and women abstain and take vows of chastity or both kind and body without being crazy or repressed perverts.  That’s a total aside.

In your case, I’d probably just tell him you love him and talk about waiting to date until high school or whenever you were originally comfortable with.  And leave it there.  No big talks besides the basics you were already giving, not pushing him one way or the other and condemning or pedestalling the choices.  Just “I love you very much and always want you feeling safe to talk to me.  We have lots of years to deal with the craziness of boys and girls and love.  I’m here if you need to talk through any specific about how you feel or what you’re thinking or experiencing :)”.

Like, as non pushy either way as possible.  He has time unless you’re cool with dating behavior very young, and might be too young to understand why it’s difficult to be any orientation but straight in his faith tradition.  I’d try to put that off, ten is SUPER young to really get the subtleties and complexities without internalizing anything harmful along with them, you know?

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, maize said:

I wasn't thinking about the ten year old specifically, but given that religion is quite important to some ten year olds it is also potentially damaging to not present them with an option that would allow for both a gay identity and living within the prescribed bounds of their religion.

They obviously don't need to be making any permanent decisions at age ten.

Sexual identity is not the only significant human identity.

LGBTQ people who are given this idea, by and large, find it to be hurtful, not empowering. The message is not generally heard as "you can be who you are and keep your faith" but rather as "you can only be who you are and keep your faith and family if you commit to a life of loneliness and limited close relationships because your relationships and love is dangerous." So, again, the gamble is the one I named above - you're risking your kid's psychological health and their relationship with you. In my experience, the only real empowering solution - even for those who identify as ace - is really to find a different expression of that religious faith.

In terms of a 10 yo... they're not thinking about doing anything much romantic or sexual anyway. The context of that message is going to be very long term. And if you think they won't somehow get it anyway at some point as someone in a religious community or with parents in such a community... I mean, they will. That option will present itself from somewhere at some point. So then it's really whether the parents want to embrace that idea and risk the kid hearing that way.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I do realize that family rejection is a real and significant issue. 

It is not only way that religiously conservative families handle matters when a family member steps outside the bounds of their faith. 

There are families that continue to maintain close, supportive family ties through the complexities of faith and lifestyle transitions.

I know; I belong to one of those families. I have nine siblings, all raised in a religious home. Half of us as adults have stayed in the religion we were raised in and hold that religion as the foundation of our lives and choices. 

And half have chosen other paths. 

And... my brothers and sisters--all of them--remain my closest friends and strongest support network. 

Edited by maize
  • Like 7

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, maize said:

I do realize that family rejection is a real and significant issue. 

It is not only way that religiously conservative families handle matters when a family member steps outside the bounds of their faith. 

There are families that continue to maintain close, supportive family ties through the complexities of faith and lifestyle transitions.

I know; I belong to one of those families. I have nine siblings, all raised in a religious home. Half of us as adults have stayed in the religion we were raised in and hold that religion as the foundation of our lives and choices. 

And half have chosen other paths. 

And... my brothers and sisters--all of them--remain my closest friends and strongest support network. 

That's awesome but I don't think it's the norm unfortunately. My own conservative religious family was fine with many steps outside the bounds of our family faith - until LGBTQ issues. That was the line and it's one I find common in many religious circles and families I know. 

IDK, this topic gets to me because I've met so many LGBTQ teens and young adults whose faith is very important to them and they have felt they had to walk away, pretend to be something they're not, or be celibate for the rest of their lives. My own dc were those kids but fortunately we found our way from the Catholic church to the Episcopal church and they still get to practice their faith but in a more affirming, loving, and welcoming environment. I really feel for those kids who aren't shown other options besides keep strictly to our faith / be celibate or walk away. 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, maize said:

I do realize that family rejection is a real and significant issue. 

It is not only way that religiously conservative families handle matters when a family member steps outside the bounds of their faith. 

There are families that continue to maintain close, supportive family ties through the complexities of faith and lifestyle transitions.

I know; I being to one of those families. I have nine siblings, all raised in a religious home. Half of us as adults have stayed in the religion we were raised in and hold that religion as the foundation of our lives and choices. 

And half have chosen other paths. 

And... my brothers and sisters--all of them--remain my closest friends and strongest support network. 

There are. I don't want to imply that there aren't families that make the cognitive dissonance of it work. In the families I know of, everyone essentially agrees to avoid the issue. Because they're adults, which makes it a heck of a lot easier. The members who are LGBTQ have decided that they're willing to let go of the hurts caused, not that they weren't caused. And that's the thing with that sort of hurt... it's like a disease. It always makes the victims ill... some recover and are fine and it's just a memory of the pain, some bear scars that they'll carry forever, and a few even die.

I think society is possibly making this harder and harder. Kids come out younger and younger. Part (not all, for sure) of what makes abuse into abuse is when the attitude expressed by the family is so out of step with mainstream attitudes around kid. I think for adults today - especially people in their late 30's and up - it's easier to say, my parents' attitudes and beliefs were not so out of step with the messages I was getting from society around me growing up. They hurt, but so did so many people. And therefore it's easier to move on from them. That's changing. So then the dissonance is changing too. Just practically speaking, I think that makes it harder. If this kid does stick to what he said and he's gay, then that's pretty different from telling your parents that you're gay as a college student in the 80's or 90's and having to deal with a bunch of fallout. He's still going to be at home in his parents' power for nearly as long as he's already been alive.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, StellaM said:

Do you know any gay Muslims or gay ex-Muslims?

I kinda feel like that's the source of advice she needs right now.

I really do not think that a lot of rah-rah secular queer advice is going to be good for her or her son.

 

I know two adults IRL who are closeted to the Muslim community, but out in their normal life.  I know one of my kids' friends is a lesbian--but she thinks nobody else knows. I have no idea if that's true or not (that nobody else knows.) 

All of my kids know that if any of their friends come out as gay (or are outed) and need a place to stay, our home is safe.  DD told one of her friends who came out on National Coming Out Day this (but her family has no idea.) 

I used to know of some online groups and such...I may reach out to them.

Being Muslim and gay is not safe for most, sadly. 

  • Like 9
  • Sad 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Farrar said:

There are. I don't want to imply that there aren't families that make the cognitive dissonance of it work.

The cognitive dissonance of...believing and trying to live according to direction one believes to be divine while also acting in love towards people who do not live by the same direction? Given that love for others is part of the divine direction, not dissonant at all.

I realize that the only option some would accept is that all religions become 100% supportive of homosexual relationships. I am not sure why anyone would believe that overturning the religious foundation of millions of lives by rejecting their scriptural and revelatory foundations would be the healthiest and least harmful path forward. That looks to me like a complete lack of understanding of and respect for religious sentiment and identity.

There isn't a way to make all parts of human society fully supportive of the entire range of human choice and experience. There will always be tough spots. Living in a society with other humans who think, feel, and act in a wide variety of ways is always going to be messy.

 

Edited by maize
  • Like 9
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Practicing Muslims definitely want all their kids to remain celibate until they are married adults lol. 

OP, what I'd tell him would be the same thing I told my boys when they were first interested in a girl...OK, bud, but don't touch her. I'm laughing but I mean that's pretty much it. It's just moot. I'd listen to him talk about his crushes the way he used to talk about Thomas the Train (sooooooooooo amazing!) and that's really it. Just like with my straight kids I'd advise them not to talk about it outside of very trusted people, and explain that once it's out there, other people will not un-hear it. That's all been fine for my kids.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned is that if this were my kid I would be wondering, and finding out, whether or not he's got a little club going where they talk about this to an extent that I don't like. What is gay? Gay is same-sex attraction. It means that, when you go to have sex, you want to do it with someone with the same biology as you have. OK fine... but we're still talking about SEX here. Which is a thread that is easy to lose when we are concerned about not "responding wrong" to a kid in a presumably-vulnerable state. 

For example, there were some young, 10-11 year old girls here recently, who all of a sudden all they wanted to talk about was "getting married." Turns out that they were speculating on and discussing sex for hours a day-- finding out things they DID NOT need to know. There is a balance to be struck with children. Between a healthy understanding and a too-precocious understanding. And I am sorry to be the one to say this here, but usually the kids that start the other kids off on this have had some kind of "sexual experience." [CRINGE!] ... not, self-evidently, really healthy age-appropriate ones. 

Anyway, I'd be chill about it and not worry too much about the religious aspect just yet. It's a bummer, but life is full of bummers. And I'd be sniffing around about the provenance of his seriousness around the declaration. Not because no one ever knows they're gay at 10, but because it's not unheard of for there to be some unsavory things afoot, whether the kid is gay or not. 

 

Edited by OKBud
  • Like 10
  • Thanks 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, maize said:

How about young people who chose to follow their own sincere religious beliefs?

No, I don't think it is psychologically healthy to be celibate because your religion has led you to believe you're bad simply for being born gay.

I would imagine that the vast majority of young people making that choice are doing so because of tremendous pressure from their family and church community, though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is something that I've been thinking about a lot recently, because we're raising our sons Catholic, even though we disagree pretty strongly with the church's teachings on this and some other issues.  The reasons we've chosen to stay in the Church are complicated, but it makes it really important to me that my children know how I feel, and that they have some idea of how DH and I would react if they came out to us.  

I think a lot of that messages comes through in our actions rather than our words.  For example, this spring one of my husband's cousins married another man.   Both young men were raised Catholic.  The other young man had one family member in attendance, his younger sister.  His parents and grandparents chose to stay away.  DH and I couldn't attend, because we were out of town with one of our kids who was hospitalized, but our kids went with their grandfather, and we made sure that the grooms knew that we wished we could have been there.  But even though our kids see these choices, we still have conversations.  We're beginning the process of choosing a high school for/with our 12 year old, and we've absolutely had conversations about what it would feel like to be in a Catholic high school where certain things we might disagree with would be taught.  

I do believe that 10 is too young for a child to know for sure.  Even if they know that they have romantic feelings for one particular person, that doesn't mean that they'll only have feelings for someone of that gender.  But I think that a parent can respond to their child's announcement that they like a certain person of the same sex, or that they are gay, in a way that is positive without trying to predict the future.  My 9 year old son told me this summer that he is going to have a wife and kids.  I can tell him I think that he'd make a wonderful husband and father, and that I'm excited at the thought of being a grandmother one day, without taking that as an indication that he's definitely straight.  I think I'd react similarly if he told me he'd have a husband and kids, or a husband and no kids.  

  • Like 7

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, maize said:

There cognitive dissonance of...believing and trying to live according to direction one believes to be divine while also acting in love towards people who do not live by the same direction? Given that love for others is part of the divine direction, not dissonant at all.

I realize that the only option some would accept is that all religions become 100% supportive of homosexual relationships. I am not sure why anyone would believe that overturning the religious foundation of millions of lives by rejecting their scriptural and revelatory foundations would be the healthiest and least harmful path forward. That looks to me like a complete lack of understanding of and respect for religious sentiment and identity.

There isn't a way to make all parts of human society fully supportive of the entire range of human choice and experience. There will always be tough spots. Living in a society with other humans who think, feel, and act in a wide variety of ways is always going to be messy.

 

I get that for many devout religious folks, that there is no cognitive dissonance. And that they perceive their approach as loving.

For LGBTQ folks, that tends to not be the case when dealing with religion that does not recognize their right to healthy, consensual, adult relationships. And that love is not typically received as truly unconditional. So there is a dissonance there.

I know that both sides see each other as self-centered. To me, there's something very self-centered about the belief that only the religious person's sense of their own love and not how it's perceived is all that matters.

Again, I think all of this is SO much easier to deal with when it's adults who can make adult choices about their own lives. I mean, I can totally say, okay, I am fine to let most people live and let live with their individual beliefs. I'm happy to find common ground with other adults and not worry about their beliefs about other things. It gets harder when it's my rights. And there are lines. But... it's still a thing that I can do much of the time for most issues. But when it comes to kids... it's harder. They're not adults on equal footing with their parents (nor am I saying they should be) to live and let live and find common ground. That's very hard.

 

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Taking a bit of a tangent here, just a thought sparked by this discussion:

I am not at all sure that the current focus on external identity affirmation as critical to individual happiness is healthy. I think that to some extent when we set up an expectation of total affirmation we also set people up for unhappiness if they don't receive that affirmation.

(Edited to remove story; thank you everyone for respecting my request not to quote it.)

Is this really where the bar is set? Absolutely everyone must affirm every pronouncement of identity lest the fragile psyche collapse?

I remain befuddled.

Fortunately there is still lots of middle ground between "kick the 15 year old LBGTQ kid out of the house" and "jump in with praise for every pronouncement of shifting identity".

Edited by maize
  • Like 11

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

btw: she was pretty mad at her (politically correct) mother for just how "supportive/encouraging" she was about living a homosexual lifestyle - she ended up not speaking to her for awhile as an adult as well.

Wow, how sad. I hope she's gained the maturity to see that her mom did what she thought was best, and that many people would love to have a parent who supported them and their decisions. And that's what it was - her announcement, her decision, her . . . well, I'm not going to say homesexual lifestyle, because that's just weird. I'm on the straight side, but I don't go around saying I live a straight lifestyle. Anyway, her mom may have erred on the over enthusiastic side, lol, but ya gotta own some things in life, and who you choose have sex with is one of them for sure.  

4 hours ago, StellaM said:

I personally think it's incredibly unfair on a spouse for a gay or lesbian person to marry them as a 'fix'. If you are gay, you are not sexually attracted to your wife, and that's just...not OK.

It is sometimes very much known to the future spouse. It's a bit of a thing in some American Christian churches. 

When you go back to marriages 40 or more years in the past, my guess is that the person may not have even had a clear understanding that they were gay. Some American religious communities are very insular, and back then it was much easier to raise a kid in a bubble (no internet). Those who did acknowledge the feelings on some level were raised to think that, not only were those feelings beyond wrong, but they could be changed and 'overcome.' Combine that with some churches encouraging early marriage, and the fact that you could actually be sent to prison for having gay sex, and I can empathize. 

3 hours ago, maize said:

I frankly have very little sympathy for middle aged men who leave a wife they claim to love because they have decided their personal sexual fulfillment is more important than a marriage that has lasted decades.

(I am not saying I would encourage someone to enter into a mixed orientation marriage; I'm talking here about the all-too-common story of one spouse--more often the husband--leaving a marriage that has lasted decades to seek greater sexual fulfillment.)

Guess I'm just not a believer in sexual identity and sexual fulfillment being the big determiner in decisions that are going to hurt other people.  

 

I think most people would say it's about more than sexual fulfillment. Although it's certainly often about that in part, the romantic and emotional aspects are often key.  I'll grant that even sex, romance, and emotion all together are not everything, but they are a great deal. Forever giving up the chance to ever experience romantic love in your life is significant; it's not always about good sex. Many couples don't have good sex or any sex, but they still have a romantic love and attachment. How or why does that work? I have no idea, but I know, bone-deep, that I may love a lot of my same sex friends and could even see building a life with some of them, but it would never be romantic love. 

Also, I wouldn't want my spouse to stay quiet. I'd want to know and I'd want to have a choice. I might be the one who wants some sexual fulfillment after being straight married to a gay person, lol. 

2 hours ago, klmama said:

????  This child announced he was gay.  Of course he knows what that means.  He's also Muslim, which is the key issue here.  Acting on same-sex attraction is considered wrong in his faith tradition; if that attraction continues, somehow the conflict will need to be addressed.  Abstinence offers a solution that doesn't require him to reject his faith. 

Bolding by me: Other posters said something similar, but let's not lose sight of the fact that many American Christian families and communities would have just as much of a problem with it. 

Going back to the OP, I agree that what you would say to your own kids doesn't necessarily apply. He definitely needs to be aware of possible social and family ramifications and of course any possible danger. If your friend can offer him quiet support if coming out isn't wise or safe right now, that would mean a lot. 

Being gay and coming out is, in general, much harder on boys than girls. It has much bigger social risks. While I think it's very natural for both boys and girls to ponder different aspects of their sexuality and have same sex crushes that fade away, I think it's much rarer for boys to let anyone know about it. When a tween or young teen boy says they're gay, it's usually solid information ime. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
45 minutes ago, maize said:

 

Clearly I was not up on the current social requirement to a) obsessively track the social media pronouncements of people in my circle to make sure I don't miss a public declaration of sexual identity and b) respond promptly with praise and affirmation for the courage and true-ness-to-self of the poster.

Is this really where the bar is set? Absolutely everyone must affirm every pronouncement of identity lest the fragile psyche collapse?

 

Eh, one person sent a message to her family, that's all I take it for. I don't think one person gets to set the bar, lol. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, maize said:

Taking a bit of a tangent here, just a thought sparked by this discussion:

Only quoting to reference.

I have a lot of complex, personal views about the situation you posted. But generally I think it's both positive to share one's own views about one's identity and immature to expect everyone to celebrate it exactly how you want. It also strikes me that the situation you describe is as much about Facebook crap as it is about questions of identity.

One of the things I get weary about is people on both ends of things using individual bad actors to judge the group. I mean, yeah, there are trends there... but one person being demanding that everyone affirm them just the way they want (and I don't know that I would describe that particular anecdote exactly that way, but I've certainly seen more egregious examples) doesn't mean that coming out or inviting in or announcing aspects of identity are negative on the whole. I see some of this as a pendulum swing correction because - as this very thread shows - it's not like as a society we're totally there in terms of acceptance or tolerance or willingness to live and let live. The LGBTQ community had an explicit strategy to claim rights which included basically being in peoples' faces about it. Those rights are still not legally in place across the board. Until they are... I don't think things like coming out announcements in general are going away.

  • Like 9

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, maize said:

Don't quote this story

 I agree that it is unrealistic to expect everybody to respond to social media posts, but I want to comment on the way you were phrasing your narrative:

it may indeed have been life changing for this person to acknowledge their sexual orientation - whether they repressed it until then, didn't fully realize it, or always knew and were closeted. Putting bisexual in parentheses seems to imply that you do not believe that is really a thing, and that it can possibly matter if this person is in a straight relationship. It may come as a surprise to hear that for many bisexual individuals this part of their identity is extremely important and that acknowledging it to themselves, their partners, and their community is necessary for them to feel authentic in their personality. It does not mean that they are going to abandon their partner or be promiscuous, but it means much for them to have the courage to say "this is part of me, and I am no longer willing to deny it because the burden of keeping this hidden is too heavy and it is choking me."  This may not make immediate sense to a straight person who has the privilege of living in a  heteronormative society because they never have to question or hide their sexual orientation, but it doesn't make it any less real and does not deserve parentheses as if bisexuality is some kind of a joke.

ETA: Oh, and the age of the person is also completely irrelevant. Sexuality is fluid (in women more so than men). People's sexual orientation can change over the course of a lifetime. There is plenty of research; science is just beginning to delve into this. So, being straight today is no guarantee that a person won't develop same sex attractions later in life. Unsettling, isn't it? 

Edited by regentrude
  • Like 4
  • Thanks 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, regentrude said:

 I agree that it is unrealistic to expect everybody to respond to social media posts, but I want to comment on the way you were phrasing your narrative:

it may indeed have been life changing for this person to acknowledge their sexual orientation - whether they repressed it until then, didn't fully realize it, or always knew and were closeted. Putting "bisexual" it in parentheses seems to imply that you do not believe that is really a thing, and that it can possibly matter when the person is in a straight relationship. It may come as a surprise to hear that for many bisexual individuals this part of their identity is extremely important and that acknowledging it to themselves, their partners, and their community is necessary for them to feel authentic in their personality. It does not mean that they are going to abandon their partner or be promiscuous, but it means much for them to have the courage to say "this is part of me, and I am no longer willing to deny it because the burden of keeping this hidden is too heavy and it is choking me."  This may not make immediate sense to a straight person who has the privilege of living in a  heteronormative society because they never have to deal with that, but it doesn't make it any less real and does not deserve parentheses as if bisexuality is some kind of a joke.

Thank you. We get it from all ends. And it sucks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, regentrude said:

 I agree that it is unrealistic to expect everybody to respond to social media posts, but I want to comment on the way you were phrasing your narrative:

it may indeed have been life changing for this person to acknowledge their sexual orientation - whether they repressed it until then, didn't fully realize it, or always knew and were closeted. Putting bisexual in parentheses seems to imply that you do not believe that is really a thing, and that it can possibly matter if this person is in a straight relationship. It may come as a surprise to hear that for many bisexual individuals this part of their identity is extremely important and that acknowledging it to themselves, their partners, and their community is necessary for them to feel authentic in their personality. It does not mean that they are going to abandon their partner or be promiscuous, but it means much for them to have the courage to say "this is part of me, and I am no longer willing to deny it because the burden of keeping this hidden is too heavy and it is choking me."  This may not make immediate sense to a straight person who has the privilege of living in a  heteronormative society because they never have to question or hide their sexual orientation, but it doesn't make it any less real and does not deserve parentheses as if bisexuality is some kind of a joke.

ETA: Oh, and the age of the person is also completely irrelevant. Sexuality is fluid (in women more so than men). People's sexual orientation can change over the course of a lifetime. There is plenty of research; science is just beginning to delve into this. So, being straight today is no guarantee that a person won't develop same sex attractions later in life. Unsettling, isn't it? 

I didn't put bisexual in parentheses.

I did put coming out in parentheses, probably because it seemed (still seems) odd to me that someone would feel a need to declare their sexuality to the world publicly when it affects nothing about their public life. "I'm bisexual, let me introduce my new girlfriend" makes sense because there is a public context. I see no public context for "hey all, just thought I'd announce my current sexual orientation identity that affects nothing in my public life, marriage, etc; just thought you should all know!"

Yes it is an identity thing. Not just a personal identity though--that's what I am getting at. Every identity must be publicly displayed and affirmed. 

Yep female sexuality does seem to be rather fluid. Are you making public assumptions about mine? 

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, maize said:

I didn't put bisexual in parentheses.

I did put coming out in parentheses, probably because it seemed (still seems) odd to me that someone would feel a need to declare their sexuality to the world publicly when it affects nothing about their public life. "I'm bisexual, let me introduce my new girlfriend" makes sense because there is a public context. I see no public context for "hey all, just thought I'd announce my current sexual orientation identity that affects nothing in my public life, marriage, etc; just thought you should all know!"

Yes it is an identity thing. Not just a personal identity though--that's what I am getting at. Every identity must be publicly displayed and affirmed. 

Yep female sexuality does seem to be rather fluid. Are you making public assumptions about mine? 

 

I would also find it odd with no context, and that's not because I don't understand that some women in hetero relationships are actually bisexual. 

I find social media affirmation rituals to be a bit cringy though, in general.

 

 

 

 

 

  • Like 9

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Farrar said:

In my experience, the only real empowering solution - even for those who identify as ace - is really to find a different expression of that religious faith.

 

This is getting away from the OP, but I have to ask why you think this is true even for ace individuals. Just curious, as it does not seem incompatible to me. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, maize said:

I didn't put bisexual in parentheses.

I did put coming out in parentheses, probably because it seemed (still seems) odd to me that someone would feel a need to declare their sexuality to the world publicly when it affects nothing about their public life. "I'm bisexual, let me introduce my new girlfriend" makes sense because there is a public context. I see no public context for "hey all, just thought I'd announce my current sexual orientation identity that affects nothing in my public life, marriage, etc; just thought you should all know!"

Yes it is an identity thing. Not just a personal identity though--that's what I am getting at. Every identity must be publicly displayed and affirmed. 

Yep female sexuality does seem to be rather fluid. Are you making public assumptions about mine? 

sorry for misreading - my comment won't change because I don't find coming out to deserve parentheses either. 

Whether it affects their public life or not, it may be an important step for that person in owning their identity. It may be part of their processing and coming to terms with something they might have been struggling with. It may take a weight of their soul. Coming out is powerful for the individual, and a step like this can bring incredible relief.  

I am not making any assumptions about your sexuality. I merely pointed out that something we like to think of as fixed isn't - and that can suddenly hit us in the face in our 20s or in our 50s. And then we have to deal with us as best as we can. Which for some humans may include coming out in public. 

Edited by regentrude
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, StellaM said:

I find social media affirmation rituals to be a bit cringy though, in general.

Yeah, it would not be my preferred medium of announcement either. But in the end, I don't see it as that different from wearing a pride button or publishing poems about it 😉

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, StellaM said:

I personally think it's incredibly unfair on a spouse for a gay or lesbian person to marry them as a 'fix'. If you are gay, you are not sexually attracted to your wife, and that's just...not OK.

 

 

Missed this, but 100% agree with you.  Sadly, that is the advice that is given by some religious figures.  However, thankfully, I think it is far more common these days for a gay and lesbian Muslim to marry as a cover for each other.  While not ideal, neither has any illusions about the other being attracted to them or not.

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, kand said:

This is getting away from the OP, but I have to ask why you think this is true even for ace individuals. Just curious, as it does not seem incompatible to me. 

So... I don't know a ton of people who identify as asexual/aromantic/etc. so I'm definitely not an expert on this. But, I'll say what do I know which is that a lot of people who identify as ace do not identify as aro and vice versa. And a lot of people who identify as ace still enter relationships with other folks, and sometimes that includes brewing some tea. And they do this because the desire for connections and relationships is stronger than their lack of desire for a sexually specific connection. Because that's the other thing - not all people who identify as ace are also repulsed by sex. Some are, absolutely. but some people are more indifferent. And some people see it as something they want to do for a trusted partner the same way that you might cook a meal you don't like because your spouse loves it. Of course, sometimes people who are ace enter relationships that don't include a sip of tea - but the relationship is still romantic.

So... I think figuring all of that out - what you want and where you stand if you come to identify as ace - is still going to be utterly muddied by that choice between relationships and faith/family if that's the perspective that your community and parents are putting out there. I just don't see it as being a place where a person could come to figure that stuff out in that environment. I'm sure it helps to accept that if you don't have much drive because you probably think, great, that seems easy enough. Except relationships are about a lot more than this one thing. And while some religious groups might allow for homoromantic relationships that don't include sex (they're certainly following the letter of the law for most religions), many are not going to get it or not allow for it at all.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

An aside for minutiae,  but I didn’t see any troubling parentheses.    (    ) = parentheses  

 

1 hour ago, umsami said:

Missed this, but 100% agree with you.  Sadly, that is the advice that is given by some religious figures.  However, thankfully, I think it is far more common these days for a gay and lesbian Muslim to marry as a cover for each other.  While not ideal, neither has any illusions about the other being attracted to them or not.

 

It is not ideal, no, but would be far better than marrying someone who was in love and expecting love and sexuality in marriage, not to be a sham cover up.   

It is certainly not the time for it at age 10 imo, but some years down the line if the boy is still feeling he’s gay and still wants to be Muslim (is leaving faith allowed without great risk?) that might perhaps be something your friend, his mother, could mention to him as a possibility.  A marriage with a lesbian woman who would be a close best friend and both know each other’s secret and be comfortable with it. 

 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Pen said:

An aside for minutiae,  but I didn’t see any troubling parentheses.    (    ) = parentheses 

 

Oh yeah, those things!

😄 laughing at myself for going along with the mis-use. Human brains...

It's like when I post something with horrible autocorrect substitutions and don't even catch them when proofreading because I see what I expect to see, not what is in front of my eyes.

regentrude and I understood each other's meaning, never mind the actual word.

Edited by maize
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, umsami said:
  17 hours ago, StellaM said:

I personally think it's incredibly unfair on a spouse for a gay or lesbian person to marry them as a 'fix'. If you are gay, you are not sexually attracted to your wife, and that's just...not OK.

 

 

I missed it too.  And I totally, totally, totally agree!!!!!

I think “unfair” is a gross understatement.  I think marrying or even taking up someone’s time dating as a sham coverup of being gay is really emotionally abusive to that other person and a harm to their emotional life. I have know several women in this situation.  And my own life was adversely affected by it. 

 

 

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Pen said:

An aside for minutiae,  but I didn’t see any troubling parentheses.    (    ) = parentheses  

 

Dang it. Stupid brain fart. Quotation marks. Yes. My only defense is that this topic is a little bit emotional for me.  Sorry folks.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Pen said:

 think “unfair” is a gross understatement.  I think marrying or even taking up someone’s time dating as a sham coverup of being gay is really emotionally abusive to that other person and a harm to their emotional life. I have know several women in this situation.  And my own life was adversely affected by it. 

I am sorry you had that experience. 

I think often it can be more complicated than a sham coverup. The person may not be fully aware of their orientation.  Or they are convinced they can make it work. They may want what society considers a "normal " family. Deception is not always part of the equation (deliberately withholding this from a partner is never ok!)

A lesbian friend of mine made the conscious choice to marry a man and have children with him, and she and her DH have found solutions that make them both happy. Where it gets super hard is when people's sexual orientation *changes* later in life. Couples find different ways to deal with it; some relationships survive, others don't.  But I don't think that is anyone's fault 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Farrar said:

So... I don't know a ton of people who identify as asexual/aromantic/etc. so I'm definitely not an expert on this. But, I'll say what do I know which is that a lot of people who identify as ace do not identify as aro and vice versa. And a lot of people who identify as ace still enter relationships with other folks, and sometimes that includes brewing some tea. And they do this because the desire for connections and relationships is stronger than their lack of desire for a sexually specific connection. Because that's the other thing - not all people who identify as ace are also repulsed by sex. Some are, absolutely. but some people are more indifferent. And some people see it as something they want to do for a trusted partner the same way that you might cook a meal you don't like because your spouse loves it. Of course, sometimes people who are ace enter relationships that don't include a sip of tea - but the relationship is still romantic.

So... I think figuring all of that out - what you want and where you stand if you come to identify as ace - is still going to be utterly muddied by that choice between relationships and faith/family if that's the perspective that your community and parents are putting out there. I just don't see it as being a place where a person could come to figure that stuff out in that environment. I'm sure it helps to accept that if you don't have much drive because you probably think, great, that seems easy enough. Except relationships are about a lot more than this one thing. And while some religious groups might allow for homoromantic relationships that don't include sex (they're certainly following the letter of the law for most religions), many are not going to get it or not allow for it at all.

 

I have a few very close asexual friends/family and (anecdotes I know) and it's literally nothing. They just go about their lives, being asexual. There was nothing to figure out-- they just never wanted to shack up. And if they did want to be in a relationship with someone, they talked to them like grownups about it. Like we all have to do, either about that or about other sensitive things.  At least one of my friends is extremely uncomfortable with asexuality being lumped in with LGBT people as an oppressed minority. No one was ever denied a promotion or kicked out of a diner for being asexual. There's NO reason to include them as part of the movement for equal rights. 

bold- What religions (not cults) excommunicate people for not having sex?

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, OKBud said:

 

I have a few very close asexual friends/family and (anecdotes I know) and it's literally nothing. They just go about their lives, being asexual. There was nothing to figure out-- they just never wanted to shack up. And if they did want to be in a relationship with someone, they talked to them like grownups about it. Like we all have to do, either about that or about other sensitive things.  At least one of my friends is extremely uncomfortable with asexuality being lumped in with LGBT people as an oppressed minority. No one was ever denied a promotion or kicked out of a diner for being asexual. There's NO reason to include them as part of the movement for equal rights. 

bold- What religions (not cults) excommunicate people for not having sex?

So, I’ve known of a couple people who identify as ace who are in relationships. Like, dating, like, living with someone. I have no idea how much, if any, tea is being brewed. But the ability to form romantic attachments is apparently part of the deal for some people. It’s like the middle aged or even older person who leaves a straight marriage over identity. Some people tried to say, it’s so they can go off and selfishly brew tea. But that’s not always why. Because identity is about more than that. If you identify as both gay and ace then regardless of whether you’re having sex or not, some religions are not okay with you openly expressing that identity or showing same sex affection publicly. And, again, I think figuring out how you want your relationships or lack thereof to look in a community where it’s don’t have any or leave means you can’t really make a choice.

ETA: In terms of rights... I mean, yeah in terms of getting fired and so forth. But being ace/aro was something that I was originally schooled about by someone who said it was a breaking point for her with society sometimes- that she gets sick of how often others tell her she’s psychologically damaged for not wanting sex or romance. Like legal discrimination, no. But social, she felt yes. I don’t really fully get it... but I also don’t feel like I have to. If for your friends, it’s a nothing no big deal, that’s awesome.

Edited by Farrar
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, regentrude said:

Yeah, it would not be my preferred medium of announcement either. But in the end, I don't see it as that different from wearing a pride button or publishing poems about it 😉

 

Oh my goodness, no to the poems!

Buttons should be punk, lol, not personal!

🙂

  • Like 1
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, umsami said:

Missed this, but 100% agree with you.  Sadly, that is the advice that is given by some religious figures.  However, thankfully, I think it is far more common these days for a gay and lesbian Muslim to marry as a cover for each other.  While not ideal, neither has any illusions about the other being attracted to them or not.

 

I guess it's no worse than a green card marriage.

I have to say though, and this is not meant as disrespect to you personally, but I think it's much healthier for a gay man and lesbian woman to leave a religion that forces them to live a lie for acceptance. It's really not OK.

Or ya know, move to Melbourne (has a gay friendly mosque..there must be others).

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Farrar said:

ETA: In terms of rights... I mean, yeah in terms of getting fired and so forth. But being ace/aro was something that I was originally schooled about by someone who said it was a breaking point for her with society sometimes- that she gets sick of how often others tell her she’s psychologically damaged for not wanting sex or romance. Like legal discrimination, no. But social, she felt yes. I don’t really fully get it... but I also don’t feel like I have to. If for your friends, it’s a nothing no big deal, that’s awesome.

 

I hear what you're saying, and I sense the love and respect you're endeavoring to show here. ❤️ 

But to me, it's closer to a tee-totaller. In fact they probably get guff than asexual people more often, as a rule.  

Or, like, gifted people. It gets lonely out in the streets. Still not discrimination. Not even remotely closing in on oppression. 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, OKBud said:

 

I have a few very close asexual friends/family and (anecdotes I know) and it's literally nothing. They just go about their lives, being asexual. There was nothing to figure out-- they just never wanted to shack up. And if they did want to be in a relationship with someone, they talked to them like grownups about it. Like we all have to do, either about that or about other sensitive things.  At least one of my friends is extremely uncomfortable with asexuality being lumped in with LGBT people as an oppressed minority. No one was ever denied a promotion or kicked out of a diner for being asexual. There's NO reason to include them as part of the movement for equal rights. 

bold- What religions (not cults) excommunicate people for not having sex?

 

Just now, OKBud said:

 

I hear what you're saying, and I sense the love and respect you're endeavoring to show here. ❤️ 

But to me, it's closer to a tee-totaller. In fact they probably get guff than asexual people more often, as a rule.  

Or, like, gifted people. It gets lonely out in the streets. Still not discrimination. Not even remotely closing in on oppression. 

 

QFT

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, StellaM said:

Oh my goodness, no to the poems!

Trying to understand the comment 🙂 

For many queer poets I know it's a rather important subject to write about. Do you think they shouldn't?

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, StellaM said:

QFT

I had to google what this means 🙂. Somehow, Quantum Field Theory didn't seem to fit.

  • Haha 10

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm also gonna come out and say it - I think this narrative that's sprung up of late that everyone's sexuality is fluid risks being homophobic. 

For clarity, I'm not accusing anyone posting in this thread of being homophobic, but I'm springboarding off the 'Unsettling, isn't it' comment, in regards to later life shifts, and the comments about gay people being able to choose to be in sexual relationship with partners of the opposite sex.

"How do you know you won't like it if you won't try it" is acceptable at meal times, not as an underlying assumption that one's orientation is endlessly in permutation and subject to change.

Many people, once in adulthood, have settled orientations, and that includes gay and lesbian people. 

I mean, I guess it's kind of funny to think of the straightest person you know 'turning' gay (not really, I actually think that's a form of homophobia too) but it's kind of less funny when it's a lesbian (from a community that is still, in places around the world, subject to corrective rape) hearing that she might, in later life, turn 'straight'.

It is not only OK to have a settled orientation in adulthood, it's very common to have a settled orientation in adulthood.

 

 

 

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Trying to understand the comment 🙂 

For many queer poets I know it's a rather important subject to write about. Do you think they shouldn't?

 

I don't use that concept (queer) at the request of my (lesbian) dd who chooses to prioritise the voices of gay and lesbian elders who still view it as a slur, and have no interest in reclaiming it. So it's hard for me to answer that question.

Do you mean, it's sometimes important for gay men and lesbian women to write about sex in poetry ? Yeah, just like it is for straight poets.

Not always my funnest reads (either way) because I'm pretty disinterested in love/sex as a topic for poetic discourse. I mean, btdt, and I think most people get more interesting the further they write away from their dominant, socially presented identity.

 

 

Edited by StellaM

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, regentrude said:

I had to google what this means 🙂. Somehow, Quantum Field Theory didn't seem to fit.

 

Ha, no,

Quoted for truth.

Because I love what OKBud has to say about ace 'identity'. 

Which, if I was forced under threat of death to have an 'identity', that would be close to it, with a dash of agender demi-ro.  None of which amounts, as OKBud said, to discrimination, far less oppression.

Lol. Such a silly game.

The important thing in this thread that ten year olds, who might or might not be gay, are growing up in faith traditions that make it unsafe for them to be honest about their developing sexual orientation, if in fact it skews away from the norm. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...