EF Scaffolding in HS

[Arctic Bunny]

Next semester, I would like to support DS15 more. I am thinking meeting (every day) to go through everything, add things to agenda, etc. I would also like him to start taking better notes. He thinks he can remember everything (and so far he can), but I thought maybe he could even (start by) writing a summary of each class (during class). So when he got home, DH or I could have him show us the notes for each class, and go over the agenda.

Is this the right way to go about it?

[Storygirl]

Is he in public school?

[Arctic Bunny]

1 hour ago, Storygirl said:

Is he in public school?

Yes

[GoodGrief]

Does the school have any sort of electronic system where you can see assignments on the internet? Maybe start by looking at that together every day. You could discuss upcoming assignments, any missing assignments, grades.

I think writing out a summary of each class might be unsustainable. There may not be time during class and usualy passing periods are short.

[Storygirl]

DS15 has some support in his IEP. His teachers list his daily homework in an online agenda for him, because he won't write it down. He did learn to use a planner earlier in middle school, but at the high school level, the students are expected to manage their choice of planner on their own, and he won't use one without someone requiring and overseeing it. So his intervention specialist set up this system specifically for him; it's not what most students do.

I agree that if your son's school uses an online classroom management system, that there may be a digital agenda built in, which he can figure out how to use. If you can't figure it out, you can ask someone at the school about it.

We have DS open his computer to show us his agenda when he gets home from school each day, so that we can talk about what homework he needs to complete. DS needs more assistance than this, but for some students just that much support would make a difference. We actually check to make sure he completes things, and we will sit with him while he does his work, if necessary (he has LDs and needs some tutoring from us).

Learning note-taking will be a difficult skill for you to help him with, since you aren't in the classroom with him. You might want to schedule some conferences with his teachers to discuss what the expectations are and whether he is on track. I'm finding that my kids' teachers don't expect note-taking in the way that I had to do in high school, but your school might.

If your son is willing to take your advice and try writing summaries of his instruction, it could be worth a try, but I agree that there may not be time do to that, and he would need to have the skill to do it and the internal motivation, since you won't be there to help or see that he is trying. I was a very proficient writer and note-taker in school, and I think it would not have been possible for me to sum up a class's instruction in a paragraph after the class was over. Too much content and not enough time.

If he is having severe problems in this area, you can talk to the school about whether he can have a 504 (if he has documentation of his EF issues) that would provide him with copies of teachers' notes.

I think there is a difference in approach needed, depending on whether he has the ability to do the things you are suggesting already, and he is just not doing them. Or whether he has skill deficits and needs help to learn them.

Edited January 25, 2020 by Storygirl

[Storygirl]

Also, even though DS15 needs this kind of support to succeed -- in his case, not just to succeed, but to pass -- he really dislikes having me help him. I think your success in this depends upon whether your son is a willing participant or not. And if he is not, whether you are willing to have requirements for him that he is resistant to, and how you will make it work.

I do think it is appropriate for you to help him with these kind of things, but it can be tricky.

[Kareni]

I know nothing about EF so take this with a grain of salt.

I'm inclined to agree that writing a summary for each class might prove tedious. Instead, perhaps he can tell you two or three highlights of/tidbits from each class.

Regards,

Kareni

[Arctic Bunny]

I think I didn’t explain very well! By summary, I meant if he’s not going to take what ol’ me considers “proper” notes, if he could just get in the habit of writing down *something* in class. Even if that something is “discussed the hero’s journey, had handout.” After school, we could make sure the handout is hole punched and put in the binder. 

[Islandgal]

Do you want his notes to be used as study guides, or more so as a habit builder?

I'd suggest letting him jot down the key points of the class on an index card, and storing it in an index card box, by subject. That way if he needs to reference the notes for an exam, they'll be organized and easy to access.

I think having a daily afternoon session is a wonderful idea! It'll help him to get into the routine of doing it himself. 

 

[MEmama]

As one who has encouraged her teen to get in the habit of simply writing down homework assignments after each class and being told repeatedly there isn’t time, I’m going to agree with other posters that it may simply be an impossible task. 

I don’t know how your sons classes work, but there isn’t extra available time in DS’s to write notes if that isn’t the task. I mean, he writes volumes of notes every day for some classes (AP Euro for ex), but it’s not possible to be doing one thing (summarizing or note taking) when the class is expected to be listening to a lecture or working in a group or doing a lab or a zillion other things. Their time in class is really dictated and there isn’t opportunity to be doing something different. KWIM?

The best I’ve come up is making a checklist with him of assignments when he gets home, but it’s imperfect as he actually needs to remember them in the first place. If he is open to using a calendar you can scaffold him while he gets used to it, but mine is resistant even if I fill it out for him. 
 

It’s a tough age when they need to be learning to be more independent but aren’t always entirely up for the task yet. Good luck. 

[kbutton]

If he's willing to go over his agenda with you, I think doing that daily and adding things together is fantastic. I didn't use a planner in high school and had no trouble, but my teachers didn't really use a syllabus, so it would've been minimally helpful. Most of my teacher followed a predictable assignment routine rather than make a syllabus--once in while we'd have that one teacher that assigned stuff willy nilly, but mostly we all knew who that would be and could leave some wiggle room. I started using a planner in college to streamline looking at each individual syllabus, and to see where the big projects fell in my personal schedule. It helped me avoid starting too late on larger projects if I had work or some kind of event I wanted to attend.

If you're concerned that he's trying to remember assignment details vs. lecture details, maybe he could snap a picture of the assignments where they are posted? Most teachers will post the assignments visually, even if they then tell you 101 details about the assignment while you're trying to write it down, lol. 

Note-taking is going to vary a lot by subject and how time is spent in class. I am from the days where teachers wrote on the blackboard every day, plus or minus handouts. If we had handouts, they still wrote a lot on the board, and there were students who could do high school without notes (I am thinking of a highly gifted student who did have that kind of memory). With electronic presentation methods, there might be a lot more need to review the notes than take them. 

If that's the case, reviewing the notes might mean reformulating them into a different format for learning or making quizlet cards to study. 

I found this with a quick search, and I think it's a great read to show that there are many ways to take notes, but the important part is to use a method that suits the content and context in which you're taking in the information. https://medium.goodnotes.com/the-best-note-taking-methods-for-college-students-451f412e264e

Another source for a variety of note and study methods is The Reader's Handbook. The high school version is dark blue. I don't remember how the middle and high school versions differ in note taking instruction, but the middle school one gives the learner many ways to draw organizers on the fly for notetaking as they study and listen. 

[Pen]

Is he having EF troubles?  Being able to remember things without notes may mean his EF is pretty good. 

If there are EF troubles, how is it negatively affecting him? I’d start with strategies that deal with the problems. 

If not, what assistance does he want? 

 

I think the idea of working with him to learn to use some sort of agenda or planner is good (but success IME will depend on him wanting to himself).  If there’s no school mandated agenda, I’d let him choose a system (paper or electronic) that feels right to him. 

[Arctic Bunny]

He fits every description of EF challenged that I’ve found! He did it his way this past semester, and missed handing in at least one big project. Also, he pretty much gave up on trying to keep up with English assignments. He only did the last big one because he left a paper on the desk. 
We’ve talked about trying to do this semester differently, that his teachers and parents are here to support him, but he has to tell someone when there is a problem.

I’d like to talk about what he thinks he needs, but be ready with suggestions.

[MEmama]

15 minutes ago, arctic_bunny said:

He fits every description of EF challenged that I’ve found! He did it his way this past semester, and missed handing in at least one big project. Also, he pretty much gave up on trying to keep up with English assignments. He only did the last big one because he left a paper on the desk. 
We’ve talked about trying to do this semester differently, that his teachers and parents are here to support him, but he has to tell someone when there is a problem.

I’d like to talk about what he thinks he needs, but be ready with suggestions.

Ugh, yeah. Mine had a grade in one class go down an entire letter grade because he didn’t turn in a homework assignment. That he had done! For some reason he just didn’t think it was necessary to turn in?!?! I feel your pain. 😞

[Pen]

12 minutes ago, arctic_bunny said:

He fits every description of EF challenged that I’ve found! He did it his way this past semester, and missed handing in at least one big project.

 

Ah!  Okay! 

Then there is a situation.  

And you will still need buy in from him.

We seem to just have turned a significant corner with my son who is 17.  And keep in mind that EF issues seem to go along with delayed maturity.  

For notes, ask the teachers directly (you ask, don’t have son ask) what the situation is as to their expectations.  I learned that most of my son’s wrote what they thought should be in notebooks clearly on board and gave time to copy or photograph it.  

Assignments—is there a website with assignments?   If so use that to guide you and your son.  

Losing / not turning in Big projects (or even small ones)— knowing that my son tends to lose things, I took photographs of recent completed end of semester projects and some other assignments.  In one case he did lose (later found) one of these, so I emailed the pictures of his work to his teacher, who responded that that was fine with her and gave him full credit.  Luckily that was on white paper and showed well. I hope he doesn’t lose one that is on blue paper and did not photograph well. 

In these last days I have literally been emailing teachers on what son completed over weekend and is supposed to be turning in — and even things like that it is located in bright blue file folder in his backpack to try to help prevent failures to turning things.   I’ve also had some communications direct with teachers about strategy.  

But none of this helped until my son decided to cooperate and accept some help with out being upset and embarrassed. 

 

 

12 minutes ago, arctic_bunny said:

Also, he pretty much gave up on trying to keep up with English assignments. He only did the last big one because he left a paper on the desk. 
We’ve talked about trying to do this semester differently, that his teachers and parents are here to support him, but he has to tell someone when there is a problem.

 

Or you have to communicate directly with school teachers, follow online assignment portals if any, etc.— so that you will know when there’s a problem.  Because both communication of there being a problem may themselves be issues for someone with EF problems. 

In talking with teachers it turns out my son isn’t the only one with this sort of trouble.

So his English teacher emailed the final assignment as a group email to *all* parents of kids in her classes with a request that we help get our kids working on it so they can turn in rough drafts on Monday. 

Not surprisingly,  yesterday my son had lost his paper copy of the final project assignment.  So, I texted him a copy of the pdf we parents had gotten from the teacher.  

And I’d already read the assignment which had multiple options and suggested the two that I thought would work best for him, which he then chose from—which greatly simplified a lot of EF difficulty in choosing which of 6 or 7 total options (each with sub options) he would do.  

 

Then after he wrote a couple of pages (on computer) he texted his draft to me, both so I could take a look at it, and as a help to prevent loss.  

 

 

Those are all related for the issue of loss.

We are working on strategies for other specific issues too.

For example procrastination is another problem for my son. . 

 

12 minutes ago, arctic_bunny said:

I’d like to talk about what he thinks he needs, but be ready with suggestions.

 

 

[Storygirl]

Pen's description is similar to what we do. I do email teachers as needed and receive some notices from them about upcoming assignments, and we check the online portal for his classes. When he has longer assignments, we help him break them down and work on them over time. When he has a test, we help him go over his study materials and set aside specific study time. We do depend upon cooperation from the teachers for this, but DS has an IEP, so we've worked some of this out in his IEP meetings. Asking for a parent teacher conference is a good first step.

[MEmama]

Yes to parents getting teachers involved!
We recently met with a couple of DS's teachers and it’s been so helpful. They don’t often knows when a student is struggling because they only see the face their students put on in class. Meeting with his teachers helped give them more insight into DS's struggles and the way his brain works. Now that they can “see” more of him, they can help head off potential communication issues in class. 

[Pen]

 Are there other specific things besides

- not getting work turned in?

- not getting English assignments done at all?

 

I think with EF a lot of times finding a specif strategy that becomes a habit for one problem adds up better than general approaches.

For example—  

Problem: frequent missing wallet

Possible Strategies:

A Wall pocket that it goes into 

or a bowl on an entry table that it goes into 

 

the strategy will have to be directed to the exact problem and will have to fit your home (like we don’t have space for an entry table but we do have room for a wall mounted pocket). 

[Arctic Bunny]

1 hour ago, Pen said:

 Are there other specific things besides

- not getting work turned in?

- not getting English assignments done at all?

 

I think with EF a lot of times finding a specif strategy that becomes a habit for one problem adds up better than general approaches.

For example—  

Problem: frequent missing wallet

Possible Strategies:

A Wall pocket that it goes into 

or a bowl on an entry table that it goes into 

 

the strategy will have to be directed to the exact problem and will have to fit your home (like we don’t have space for an entry table but we do have room for a wall mounted pocket). 

Hmm... trying to think. 
He started the year off so well, working on assignments on his own, getting up on Saturday to do homework, etc. He seemed to be handling it all, so well! Then midterm marks. Fairly high marks, but a few holes starting to show in the comments: “Would have had a much higher mark if X had been handed in,” etc. Clearly the wheels came off in English sometime around then, if not just before. There were comments that more detailed work would be better, he’s capable, etc, but mark was okay.

His binder developed into a total disaster.

Study hall was used for his favourite subjects (math and German), then no mention of homework after school.

He was going to the gym at lunch, but lunch hour started being used to finish assignments.

I feel like a failure if he feels like he couldn’t come to me for help. He said Dad tells him to figure it out on his own (but I don’t know if he’s ever asked a Dad for help).

He is fortunate that he gets decent marks despite all this. However, I feel strongly it will bite him in the butt.

 

I feel like I did a lot of rambling without a lot of answering.

[Arctic Bunny]

Also, assignments are not online. There are syllabi. Ongoing grades are not online. Students are encouraged to act independently, without parents communicating with teachers as the norm.

[Pen]

37 minutes ago, arctic_bunny said:

Hmm... trying to think. 
He started the year off so well, working on assignments on his own, getting up on Saturday to do homework, etc. He seemed to be handling it all, so well! Then midterm marks. Fairly high marks, but a few holes starting to show in the comments: “Would have had a much higher mark if X had been handed in,” etc. Clearly the wheels came off in English sometime around then, if not just before. There were comments that more detailed work would be better, he’s capable, etc, but mark was okay.

His binder developed into a total disaster.

 

What does “total disaster” mean? 

37 minutes ago, arctic_bunny said:

Study hall was used for his favourite subjects (math and German),

 

Are Math and German going well?  If so maybe he can continue to handle them in study hall.

And you could go over his other classes with him after school. 

Does he have PE and or a sport?  If not he probably needs physical exercise when he first gets home, and it would be good if he can have his work done so he can go back to break in day with gym during lunchtime. 

37 minutes ago, arctic_bunny said:

then no mention of homework after school.

He was going to the gym at lunch, but lunch hour started being used to finish assignments.

I feel like a failure if he feels like he couldn’t come to me for help. He said Dad tells him to figure it out on his own (but I don’t know if he’s ever asked a Dad for help).

 

Try not to feel like a failure.  It’s just a little road bump. 

You are getting on top of it now. 

37 minutes ago, arctic_bunny said:

He is fortunate that he gets decent marks despite all this. However, I feel strongly it will bite him in the butt.

 

I feel like I did a lot of rambling without a lot of answering.

 

 

[Pen]

40 minutes ago, arctic_bunny said:

Also, assignments are not online. There are syllabi. Ongoing grades are not online. Students are encouraged to act independently, without parents communicating with teachers as the norm.

 

Suggestions: 

Make copies of the syllabi for yourself and in case he loses his.  

Use the syllabi to help keep track of his progress.  

Suggest to him that he should tell you assignments right away so you can help him to figure out how to pace himself and get everything done.  

Keep photocopies or scanned copies of work to protect against loss—even if teachers want independence.  It’s a process .  And your son clearly isn’t quite there yet. 

[Pen]

Is he doing required reading or trying to do assignments without doing the reading? 

[GoodGrief]

53 minutes ago, arctic_bunny said:

Also, assignments are not online. There are syllabi. Ongoing grades are not online. Students are encouraged to act independently, without parents communicating with teachers as the norm.

 That does make things more difficult.

Do they do any kind of conferences? If that's an option, I'd definitely pop in and ask about options for finding assignments. I found out in conferences about some options that the teachers offer directly to the students. One teacher even had a YouTube channel where he reviewed certain concepts online.

I would probably e mail the teachers and ask about options if there isn't a conference time, even if communication is discouraged. There doesn't have to be a lengthy back and forth, but you do want to be able to help your son.

[Arctic Bunny]

1 hour ago, Pen said:

 

What does “total disaster” mean? 

Not handing in any English assignments at all, that I can see! 

Are Math and German going well?  If so maybe he can continue to handle them in study hall.

Yes, very well. He won’t have German next semester. So better to get his favourites done first?

And you could go over his other classes with him after school. 

Does he have PE and or a sport?  If not he probably needs physical exercise when he first gets home, and it would be good if he can have his work done so he can go back to break in day with gym during lunchtime. 

He will have PE next semester. We let karate slide because it seemed like so much else going on. But it it strongly needed. Back at it after finals.

Try not to feel like a failure.  It’s just a little road bump. 

You are getting on top of it now. 

Sigh. Thank you.

 

I’m sorry about the quote thing!

[Arctic Bunny]

1 hour ago, Pen said:

Is he doing required reading or trying to do assignments without doing the reading? 

Loves reading, just not doing the assignments. He was well prepared for the essay he was not planning on doing, because he read “The Odyssey” four more times for the fun of it!

[Arctic Bunny]

1 hour ago, GoodGrief1 said:

 That does make things more difficult.

Do they do any kind of conferences? If that's an option, I'd definitely pop in and ask about options for finding assignments. I found out in conferences about some options that the teachers offer directly to the students. One teacher even had a YouTube channel where he reviewed certain concepts online.

I would probably e mail the teachers and ask about options if there isn't a conference time, even if communication is discouraged. There doesn't have to be a lengthy back and forth, but you do want to be able to help your son.

So tonight, I was helping him study... okay quizzing him to see if he had studied for tomorrow’s exam. And getting ticked because he was in the bathroom for so long. He came out and said he was studying in there. At which point I discovered that some teachers do use google classroom *facepalm*. So I am now logged in. Ugh.

 

[Pen]

ctic_bunny     3,684

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Posted 2 minutes ago

   1 hour ago,  Pen said: 

 

What does “total disaster” mean? 

Not handing in any English assignments at all, that I can see! 

Are Math and German going well?  If so maybe he can continue to handle them in study hall.

Yes, very well. He won’t have German next semester. So better to get his favourites done first?

 

—— Anything that gets it done, yes.  If he can take care of at least math and maybe also something else in study hall, then that pressure is off for afternoons and evenings.  So you can focus on his English where he isn’t getting things done / in. Or any other classes with that problem.    

I think it would be the rare kid who so loves math that it’s a true reward for getting English assignments done.  

 

 

 

[Pen]

Sorry, I too had quoting troubles!

[Arctic Bunny]

Lol. He is the kid for whom math would be a reward.... but probably not enough!

[Pen]

10 minutes ago, arctic_bunny said:

Lol. He is the kid for whom math would be a reward.... but probably not enough!

 

You could ask *him* what he thinks would be best to get done when and where. 

I know my son often likes to get the easiest or most pleasant out of the way first.  And doing that can get some momentum going for facing more challenging or undesirable.  Or at least doesn’t back up a class that could get done behind one that is causing procrastination.  

On the bright side, your son sounds like he makes good use of study hall for some subjects. Mine did not.  We learned after 9th grade not to have him take study halls at all.  Mine is better off with a PE or active elective (drama or something where he can be physical and move around) instead of study hall.

 All of this likely takes some trial and error to figure out.  

[MEmama]

8 hours ago, arctic_bunny said:

Also, assignments are not online. There are syllabi. Ongoing grades are not online. Students are encouraged to act independently, without parents communicating with teachers as the norm.

Well sure the high school encourages this, but your son isn’t quite ready yet. And that’s okay.

He NEEDS you to be involved and communicating with his teachers. Trust, he isn’t the only one, and teachers have heard it all before. Let them help you. (Hugs). We are in the thick of it too, and it’s hard. 

[Arctic Bunny]

3 hours ago, MEmama said:

Well sure the high school encourages this, but your son isn’t quite ready yet. And that’s okay.

He NEEDS you to be involved and communicating with his teachers. Trust, he isn’t the only one, and teachers have heard it all before. Let them help you. (Hugs). We are in the thick of it too, and it’s hard. 

The most frustrating thing is knowing I was the same and wishing I had been taught the skills I struggled to figure out when I was an adult.