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gardenmom5

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52 minutes ago, vonfirmath said:

The flu vax only lasts for two months?!

That's -- I'm not sure I can credit getting the vax for not getting the flu given this. No wonder so many have the flu after the vax -- the vax does not last very long at all.

 

peak levels. then it starts to decline. It doesn't vanish...just becomes less effective over time. Quite similar to Covid vax.

Definitely it is also because flu virus mutates quickly. Again, similar to Covid.

We are in a very mild winter area so it's often summer weather through October...so we aim for flu vax in November so that we have peak overlapping with the holidays.

https://www.healthline.com/health/cold-flu/how-long-does-flu-shot-last#when-to-get-it
 

Edited by calbear
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6 hours ago, Laura Corin said:

Delta is just a beast, but high rates of vaccination seem to make a difference. 

 

 

 

 

I'm really hoping this holds true. 

My town has 71% of all ages fully vaccinated.   Most of my county is in the 60's for fully vaccinated across all ages/70's for eligible.   

We don't have a full indoor mask mandate but we do for schools.   Some schools started this week so we should get a feel in the next week or so how that's going.  Our cases have been on a downward trend for the past week or so, hopefully that will continue.  

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Do y’all know the early signs of covid delta?   Are they any different than original covid?   I’m not feeling great.  Stabbing ear pain and I took an imitrex thinking migraine, but it’s still happening off and on, only one ear though.   Throat and upper chest feeling wonky now.   

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2 minutes ago, WildflowerMom said:

Do y’all know the early signs of covid delta?   Are they any different than original covid?   I’m not feeling great.  Stabbing ear pain and I took an imitrex thinking migraine, but it’s still happening off and on, only one ear though.   Throat and upper chest feeling wonky now.   

Runny nose 

Sore throat 

Headache 

Top three symptoms we are being told to watch for. 

 

 

 

 

 

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I saw that some advisory group in the UK (to the govt) are not recommending vaccination for 12-15 yr olds? I'm surprised. Even though the risk of severe disease from covid is low for that age group, it's still higher than the side effects from the vaccine. 

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40 minutes ago, WildflowerMom said:

Do y’all know the early signs of covid delta?   Are they any different than original covid?   I’m not feeling great.  Stabbing ear pain and I took an imitrex thinking migraine, but it’s still happening off and on, only one ear though.   Throat and upper chest feeling wonky now.   

I know a family of four that had it (2 vaxxed and 2 unvaxxed). Their symptoms were either gastrointestinal or flu like (the gastro symptoms were in one of the unvaxxed). 

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1 minute ago, bookbard said:

Maybe they need to prioritise truckie vaccination - there's been a lot of issues there.

Yep we have two exposure sites at hotels today and they are really busy hotels.  I think once you have a massive outbreak in one state it becomes very hard to control/isolate to be honest.  Things worked best when the country had an overall zero Covid approach.  

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2 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

Runny nose 

Sore throat 

Headache 

Top three symptoms we are being told to watch for. 

 

 

 

 

 

I think mine is my ear, possibly a sinus thing.   It’s crazy now because every little thing makes me think ‘covid’.  

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https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-09-04/warnings-of-an-online-delivery-crisis-because-of-covid/100433624
 

Online delivery and supermarket stocking warehouse are facing major issues with the number of people self isolating in NSW.

“From 9:00am Sunday until Tuesday, Australia Post will not collect regular post parcels from e-commerce retailers in New South Wales, Victoria and the ACT.

The temporary pause comes after 500 employees of the postal service were ordered into self-isolation by local health authorities.”

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5 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Yep. 

Shelves noticeably barer here over the last fortnight, but this was quite extreme!

Here at the markets they can hardly give some fresh produce away.  Meat prices are through the roof though other than chicken.

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https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2021/07/clues-about-mis-c-and-covid-19-kids/619447/
 

Can we talk a little bit about the super antigen thing?  

https://twitter.com/fitterhappieraj/status/1432689957794205702?s=21

 

If I understand this guy correctly he thinks that every time people get reinfected it will further deplete/damage T cells and we will get sicker not less sick?   He has a lot of tweets but I’m not sure if I’m fully getting my head around it.

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1 hour ago, Ausmumof3 said:

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2021/07/clues-about-mis-c-and-covid-19-kids/619447/
 

Can we talk a little bit about the super antigen thing?  

https://twitter.com/fitterhappieraj/status/1432689957794205702?s=21

 

If I understand this guy correctly he thinks that every time people get reinfected it will further deplete/damage T cells and we will get sicker not less sick?   He has a lot of tweets but I’m not sure if I’m fully getting my head around it.

Anecdotally, on the covid support groups those who have had it more than once concur with this.  In every case that has shared the second (or third!) Cases were worse.  In my own case if I did in fact have in in Feb 2020 when a family member lost taste and smell for a long time, then my second case was multiple times worse. Q lot worse.  

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1 hour ago, Ausmumof3 said:

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2021/07/clues-about-mis-c-and-covid-19-kids/619447/
 

Can we talk a little bit about the super antigen thing?  

https://twitter.com/fitterhappieraj/status/1432689957794205702?s=21

 

If I understand this guy correctly he thinks that every time people get reinfected it will further deplete/damage T cells and we will get sicker not less sick?   He has a lot of tweets but I’m not sure if I’m fully getting my head around it.

 

AJ Leonardi is an immunologist at Johns Hopkins who has published in peer-review journals on immunology in general and T-cells in particular. A lot of what he writes is very technical and totally over my head, but basically he believes (along with other scientists) that SARS-CoV-2 has a superantigen — something that can simultaneously evade T-cells while also triggering them to attack other parts of the body. This theory could explain MIS-C, cytokine storms, and the auto-immune component of long covid.

He argues that the claim "we don't need boosters when antibodies wane, because we have T-cells for back up" is false when dealing with a virus that can not only evade T-cells but actually weaponize them. He says that antibodies are absolutely critical in fighting off SARS-CoV-2, because circulating antibodies can rapidly knock out the virus before it has a chance to create an army of confused T-cells that will attack the body instead of the virus. 

I haven't been able to find any scholarly articles addressing the question of whether subsequent infections would be worse, but I'm guessing the idea is that if the initial infection is allowed to get to the point where T-cells have already been "trained" to attack the body, then maybe subsequent infections can re-trigger that response? I don't know, I'd love to see an article written for nonscientists that explains the issues with superantigens in plain English.

 

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6 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

 

AJ Leonardi is an immunologist at Johns Hopkins who has published in peer-review journals on immunology in general and T-cells in particular. A lot of what he writes is very technical and totally over my head, but basically he believes (along with other scientists) that SARS-CoV-2 has a superantigen — something that can simultaneously evade T-cells while also triggering them to attack other parts of the body. This theory could explain MIS-C, cytokine storms, and the auto-immune component of long covid.

He argues that the claim "we don't need boosters when antibodies wane, because we have T-cells for back up" is false when dealing with a virus that can not only evade T-cells but actually weaponize them. He says that antibodies are absolutely critical in fighting off SARS-CoV-2, because circulating antibodies can rapidly knock out the virus before it has a chance to create an army of confused T-cells that will attack the body instead of the virus. 

I haven't been able to find any scholarly articles addressing the question of whether subsequent infections would be worse, but I'm guessing the idea is that if the initial infection is allowed to get to the point where T-cells have already been "trained" to attack the body, then maybe subsequent infections can re-trigger that response? I don't know, I'd love to see an article written for nonscientists that explains the issues with superantigens in plain English.

 

Hmmmm. I wonder how that would work with the fact that natural immunity seems to be highly effective, though? 

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18 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Hmmmm. I wonder how that would work with the fact that natural immunity seems to be highly effective, though? 

I'm guessing he means that repeat infections are likely to make things worse in some subset of people, but not everyone? Obviously not all children who get covid develop MIS-C, and not all adults who get covid become severely ill due to cytokine storms or develop long covid, so it seems like there must be some  predisposing factors (like "leaky gut" with MIS-C, or genetic "interferon errors" that Leonardi mentioned in one tweet). I don't know, I can't find any good articles about this that aren't extremely technical and way over my head. 

This is the level of technical detail in the articles I'm finding on superantigens (this one is about the superantigen that causes toxic shock syndrome, which researchers have said is similar to the process that causes MIS-C): "These protein toxins bind directly to specific Vβ regions of T-cell receptors (TCR) and major histocompatibility complex (MHC) class II on antigen-presenting cells, resulting in hyperactivation of T lymphocytes and monocytes/macrophages. Activated host cells produce excessive amounts of proinflammatory cytokines and chemokines, especially tumor necrosis factor α, interleukin 1 (IL-1), IL-2, interferon γ (IFNγ), and macrophage chemoattractant protein 1 causing clinical symptoms of fever, hypotension, and shock. Because of superantigen-induced T cells skewed toward TH1 helper cells, and the induction of proinflammatory cytokines, superantigens can exacerbate autoimmune diseases. Upon TCR/MHC ligation, pathways induced by superantigens include the mitogen-activated protein kinase cascades and cytokine receptor signaling, resulting in activation of NFκB and the phosphoinositide 3-kinase/mammalian target of rapamycin pathways."

That might as well be Ancient Greek to me!

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2 hours ago, Corraleno said:

I'm guessing he means that repeat infections are likely to make things worse in some subset of people, but not everyone? Obviously not all children who get covid develop MIS-C, and not all adults who get covid become severely ill due to cytokine storms or develop long covid, so it seems like there must be some  predisposing factors (like "leaky gut" with MIS-C, or genetic "interferon errors" that Leonardi mentioned in one tweet). I don't know, I can't find any good articles about this that aren't extremely technical and way over my head. 

This is the level of technical detail in the articles I'm finding on superantigens (this one is about the superantigen that causes toxic shock syndrome, which researchers have said is similar to the process that causes MIS-C): "These protein toxins bind directly to specific Vβ regions of T-cell receptors (TCR) and major histocompatibility complex (MHC) class II on antigen-presenting cells, resulting in hyperactivation of T lymphocytes and monocytes/macrophages. Activated host cells produce excessive amounts of proinflammatory cytokines and chemokines, especially tumor necrosis factor α, interleukin 1 (IL-1), IL-2, interferon γ (IFNγ), and macrophage chemoattractant protein 1 causing clinical symptoms of fever, hypotension, and shock. Because of superantigen-induced T cells skewed toward TH1 helper cells, and the induction of proinflammatory cytokines, superantigens can exacerbate autoimmune diseases. Upon TCR/MHC ligation, pathways induced by superantigens include the mitogen-activated protein kinase cascades and cytokine receptor signaling, resulting in activation of NFκB and the phosphoinositide 3-kinase/mammalian target of rapamycin pathways."

That might as well be Ancient Greek to me!

Yes me too!  Your explanation was helpful though to clarify the fuzzy picture I had in my head.  If I understand right basically the virus attacks the T-cells in the centre away from the part that recognises the virus so the T-cells can’t specifically develop a response to the virus so they do a massive overreaction instead?

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3 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

Hmmmm. I wonder how that would work with the fact that natural immunity seems to be highly effective, though? 

You would expect short term immunity to be strong thanks to antibodies but longer term as antibodies wane the T-cells wouldn’t be as effective and the virus would deplete then over the course of future infections.  I’m not sure how long natural immunity is lasting. Do we know that?  

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13 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

You would expect short term immunity to be strong thanks to antibodies but longer term as antibodies wane the T-cells wouldn’t be as effective and the virus would deplete then over the course of future infections.  I’m not sure how long natural immunity is lasting. Do we know that?  

 Not really. The big study that many are referring to recently only looked at recovered cases from Jan/Feb of 2021 and compared them to vaccination.  I've gone the rounds with stubborn people over this. It really didn't prove anything of significance but the naysayers are having a field day with it.  Preaching to get that natural immunity 😡

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1 hour ago, busymama7 said:

 Not really. The big study that many are referring to recently only looked at recovered cases from Jan/Feb of 2021 and compared them to vaccination.  I've gone the rounds with stubborn people over this. It really didn't prove anything of significance but the naysayers are having a field day with it.  Preaching to get that natural immunity 😡

I thought it was interesting 🤷‍♀️. We were never going to figure out duration of natural immunity at this juncture, but it's comforting that it's effective for even that long.

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8 hours ago, Corraleno said:

 

AJ Leonardi is an immunologist at Johns Hopkins who has published in peer-review journals on immunology in general and T-cells in particular. A lot of what he writes is very technical and totally over my head, but basically he believes (along with other scientists) that SARS-CoV-2 has a superantigen — something that can simultaneously evade T-cells while also triggering them to attack other parts of the body. This theory could explain MIS-C, cytokine storms, and the auto-immune component of long covid.

He argues that the claim "we don't need boosters when antibodies wane, because we have T-cells for back up" is false when dealing with a virus that can not only evade T-cells but actually weaponize them. He says that antibodies are absolutely critical in fighting off SARS-CoV-2, because circulating antibodies can rapidly knock out the virus before it has a chance to create an army of confused T-cells that will attack the body instead of the virus. 

I haven't been able to find any scholarly articles addressing the question of whether subsequent infections would be worse, but I'm guessing the idea is that if the initial infection is allowed to get to the point where T-cells have already been "trained" to attack the body, then maybe subsequent infections can re-trigger that response? I don't know, I'd love to see an article written for nonscientists that explains the issues with superantigens in plain English.

 

This is very interesting, if alarming.

What is the theory why vaccinations seem to be working so incredibly well to keep people from getting really sick, though?  Is it just the antibodies?

This past week heard a presentation by the head of the biggest hospital system in my area.  He said that the covid patients in their hospitals are nearly all unvaccinated, and the vaccinated patients were mostly folks who are seriously immunosuppresssed (cancer patients, transplant recipients, etc).

 

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2 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

I thought it was interesting 🤷‍♀️. We were never going to figure out duration of natural immunity at this juncture, but it's comforting that it's effective for even that long.

It is interesting and reassuring for those who have just recoverd.  I wasn't talking about anyone here. Just in real life who think we all just need to go get and get that natural immunity so we can have herd immunity.  

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2 hours ago, JennyD said:

This is very interesting, if alarming.

What is the theory why vaccinations seem to be working so incredibly well to keep people from getting really sick, though?  Is it just the antibodies?

This past week heard a presentation by the head of the biggest hospital system in my area.  He said that the covid patients in their hospitals are nearly all unvaccinated, and the vaccinated patients were mostly folks who are seriously immunosuppresssed (cancer patients, transplant recipients, etc).

 

Yes antibodies are good just T cells aren’t once the antibodies wane.  Is the theory…

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I had some potential exposure so I decided to order one of the free tests through the state department of health.  They mail the kit, you have a video call with a tech during which you drool into a test tube and mail it back.

I was expecting not to get the kit until Wednesday, considering the holiday week-end, which would be about the right timing to test.

I just got an email that the testing company is now partnering with Door Dash, and to expect my delivery soon. 
 

I am vaguely unsettled by this development, and not sure why.

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So, I saw an update to the Oklahoma ivermectin-overdose story that said "a" hospital refutes the doctor's story and that he hasn't worked there for two months. (Edited to reflect that only one hospital has issued a statement.)

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/gunshot-victims-horse-dewormer-ivermectin-oklahoma-hospitals-covid-1220608/

Was he passing along what he heard from collegues & there is a coverup going on? Or was it "fake news" all along? 

Such a weird story with the "gunshot victims" mention (as many here pointed out at the time).

Edited by RootAnn
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abc 
Booster shots are in the nation's future

ACT Chief Minister Andrew Barr says a booster vaccine program will rollout through 2022, and the vaccines for that program have already been acquired.

He said those who have had the AstraZeneca vaccine will be offered an mRNA vaccine (like Pfizer or Moderna) as a booster:

"The exact details I don't know today, but people will be advised, and there has been some discussion among health authorities in relation to those who have had the Astra Zeneca vaccine being able to have an mRNA booster, but that decision has not yet been informed by advisory groups such a ATAGI, and they will inform the nation in time," he said.

happy to see this!

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38 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:
  17 hours ago, ktgrok said:

Yup, I just want the kids to not get it until vaccinated, and I don't want it until I get a booster. 

 

38 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Same.

And really - that doesn't seem like it should be such an unreasonable hope. I'm not saying I won't catch it, or never go back to living a reasonably normal life. Just that I'd like my kids to be vaccinated, and ideally my own vaccination at a good level of protection, when I catch it. 

Why is that so much to ask?

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5 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

 

And really - that doesn't seem like it should be such an unreasonable hope. I'm not saying I won't catch it, or never go back to living a reasonably normal life. Just that I'd like my kids to be vaccinated, and ideally my own vaccination at a good level of protection, when I catch it. 

Why is that so much to ask?

Because, everyone knows, everyone who wanted a vaccine already has it. It’s easy and simple for ANYONE who wanted the vaccine to get it. Everyone currently unvaccinated is that way by choice, so there is no reason for any precautions any longer.

 

If someone can direct me to one of these simple, easy to access vaccination locations, where ANYONE can get it, please let me know. We’d like to have all our family members vaccinated.

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