Jump to content

Menu

wuhan - coronavirus


gardenmom5

Recommended Posts

C.D.C. Internal Report Calls Delta Variant as Contagious as Chickenpox

😭

Vaccinated people are eight times less likely to become infected, but if they do, it’s possible they might transmit it just as easily. It also seems to be more severe. Fortunately so far the vaccine is still ultra protective against serious illness and death.

Edited by KSera
Had stat wrong. 8-fold reduction in illness
  • Sad 9
Link to comment
Share on other sites

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2109072
 

Study on breakthrough cases and long Covid in healthcare workers in Israel.

Among 1497 fully vaccinated health care workers for whom RT-PCR data were available, 39 SARS-CoV-2 breakthrough infections were documented. Neutralizing antibody titers in case patients during the peri-infection period were lower than those in matched uninfected controls (case-to-control ratio, 0.361; 95% confidence interval, 0.165 to 0.787). Higher peri-infection neutralizing antibody titers were associated with lower infectivity (higher Ct values). Most breakthrough cases were mild or asymptomatic, although 19% had persistent symptoms (>6 weeks). The B.1.1.7 (alpha) variant was found in 85% of samples tested. A total of 74% of case patients had a high viral load (Ct value, <30) at some point during their infection; however, of these patients, only 17 (59%) had a positive result on concurrent Ag-RDT. No secondary infections were documented.

CONCLUSIONS

Among fully vaccinated health care workers, the occurrence of breakthrough infections with SARS-CoV-2 was correlated with neutralizing antibody titers during the peri-infection period. Most breakthrough infections were mild or asymptomatic, although persistent symptoms did occur.

Edited by Ausmumof3
  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Ausmumof3 said:

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2109072
 

Study on breakthrough cases and long Covid in healthcare workers in Israel.

 

I saw that, although I would really like them followed longer! 

For context, the long COVID numbers are smaller than what we'd have without vaccination, I think. At least, that was the sense I got when I looked at this before. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I saw that, although I would really like them followed longer! 

For context, the long COVID numbers are smaller than what we'd have without vaccination, I think. At least, that was the sense I got when I looked at this before. 

Yes agreed.  It seems like a small percentage of a small percentage.  Mind you that was all pre-delta.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/07/29/cdc-mask-guidance/?fbclid=IwAR0DiAkmJNCPQmiS9EwiyfZNwblxupp61fs1aWh0iKHLZ6VSkdH5L5AsRDA

 

"'The war has changed'  Internal CDC document urges new messaging, warns delta infenctions likely more severe.

 

My takeaway:

--Vaccinations protect you from severe disease. Vaccinated are still catching delta and still spreading it just as much as unvaccinated. There is also significant hospitalized population that is vaccinated as well.

"“We really need to shift toward a goal of preventing serious disease and disability and medical consequences, and not worry about every virus detected in somebody’s nose,” Neuzil said. “It’s hard to do, but I think we have to become comfortable with coronavirus not going away.”

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, vonfirmath said:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/07/29/cdc-mask-guidance/?fbclid=IwAR0DiAkmJNCPQmiS9EwiyfZNwblxupp61fs1aWh0iKHLZ6VSkdH5L5AsRDA

 

"'The war has changed'  Internal CDC document urges new messaging, warns delta infenctions likely more severe.

 

My takeaway:

--Vaccinations protect you from severe disease. Vaccinated are still catching delta and still spreading it just as much as unvaccinated. There is also significant hospitalized population that is vaccinated as well.

"“We really need to shift toward a goal of preventing serious disease and disability and medical consequences, and not worry about every virus detected in somebody’s nose,” Neuzil said. “It’s hard to do, but I think we have to become comfortable with coronavirus not going away.”

Can we wait to do that until kids can be vaccinated? Cause there is nothing we can do to protect them from serious disease disability, other than not having them catch it. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Can we wait to do that until kids can be vaccinated? Cause there is nothing we can do to protect them from serious disease disability, other than not having them catch it. 

There are others in the world that would rather we wait to vaccinate our low risk until they got their high risk folk vaccinated. But here we are. There will always be a population at risk.

 

ETA: I think I am very aware of the effect of the virus on other countries because of the kids I write there. I have not even found a way to mention I am vaccinated in my letters because all I can think is "How wealthy this makes me seem when their parents and grandparents don't even have the option to get a vaccine"  I keep encouraging them to wash their hands and keep their distance -- but even for keeping apart -- that's another privilege I have. Some of them are rural and maybe somewhat able to do it? But those who live in the cities? Not so much.

 

I'm looking for a video I saw about a girl in a slum who was trying to do the right things to keep her mom safe. And even as she says she tries to keep her distance--you see the people all around and how close the houses are together.

 

 

 

Edited by vonfirmath
  • Like 2
  • Sad 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I’m very worried about this “as contagious as chicken pox” thing. I didn’t get chicken pox until I was 35, and I still remember exactly how I caught it. 

My mom was in the hospital after some major surgery and I was on the elevator on my way down to the coffee shop to pick up some snacks for my dad and me, when a guy stepped on to the elevator with the worst acne I had seen in a long time. He had pimples all over his face and down his neck. (That was kind of a spoiler alert right there. 😉 )

So a few days later, my skin started to break out and it was so weird, because my skin was always clear and that morning, there were several pimples on my face. I went into dh’s office to tell him I was leaving for the hospital to go visit Mom and his assistant walked in and said, “You don’t know you have chicken pox, do you?” 

What can I say? She was an experienced Mom who knew these things, and I was someone who didn’t have kids yet and never even thought of things like chicken pox. But yeah, I was a dimwit.

So my poor dad ended up spending 24/7 in the hospital with Mom because obviously I couldn’t go back there with chicken pox, and I got Zovirax and was fine within a few days. I still worry that I might have infected people before I knew I had it, but at least I did find out I had it on the first day I started breaking out, so I’m hopeful I didn’t make anyone else sick.

But the thing is, I caught it in an elevator. I am positive I got it from that guy. And we might have been on the elevator for a minute. It was only a few floors, so I can’t imagine it was longer than that. So if Delta is that contagious, I am going to be even more paranoid than ever.

Ugh.

  • Like 1
  • Sad 7
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/29/2021 at 7:12 PM, frogger said:

It would be interesting to see actual hospitalizations. I know some vaccinated are hospitalized but not sure of the extent. Curious how common it is. 

Over the period 1 February - 21 June,
733 (63%) people were hospitalised having had no vaccine
74 (6.4%) were less than 21 days after their first dose (for people having 2 doses, which is nearly all of them)
162 (13.9%) had had their first dose more than 21 days previously but not had dose #2 (and needed it)
173 (14.8%) had received both doses (any length of time prior).

Proportions during this time changed dramatically, but the 14.8% is likely to have come out of 40-50% of the population, whereas the 63% came out of 20-30% of the population. So vaccines are quite protective.

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, vonfirmath said:

Vaccinations protect you from severe disease. Vaccinated are still catching delta and still spreading it just as much as unvaccinated. There is also significant hospitalized population that is vaccinated as well.

That is not what the CDC said. They have stated that vaccines still significantly reduce the chances of getting infected to begin with, but the percentage of vaccinated people who do get infected tend to have viral loads similar to unvaccinated people. And according to the CDC, 97% of hospitalizations are in the unvaccinated — do you consider the the other 3% a "significant population"? 

  • Like 8
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

4 hours ago, vonfirmath said:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/07/29/cdc-mask-guidance/?fbclid=IwAR0DiAkmJNCPQmiS9EwiyfZNwblxupp61fs1aWh0iKHLZ6VSkdH5L5AsRDA

 

"'The war has changed'  Internal CDC document urges new messaging, warns delta infenctions likely more severe.

 

My takeaway:

--Vaccinations protect you from severe disease. Vaccinated are still catching delta and still spreading it just as much as unvaccinated. There is also significant hospitalized population that is vaccinated as well.

"“We really need to shift toward a goal of preventing serious disease and disability and medical consequences, and not worry about every virus detected in somebody’s nose,” Neuzil said. “It’s hard to do, but I think we have to become comfortable with coronavirus not going away.”

I agree. It is too bad my RN friend who works in an Anchorage ER is already getting tons of overtime and has to take care of twice as many patients as they used to per level. So if the the level of care was at two patients per nurse in 2019, the same level of care is 4 patients per nurse currently. She said there is more biking accidents too so it isn't all Covid. More people riding bikes is also an issue and they can't find more nurses to hire since there is so much competition for them.  Last time I had dinner with her she kept repeating, "Don't get injured, don't get sick, don't get in an accident, don't fall in the bathtub. There is no one to take care of you." 

 

I don't know what to say anymore. It seems hopeless and those stuck in the medical profession are going to pay a high price.

Edited by frogger
  • Like 1
  • Sad 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, vonfirmath said:

My takeaway:

--Vaccinations protect you from severe disease. Vaccinated are still catching delta and still spreading it just as much as unvaccinated. There is also significant hospitalized population that is vaccinated as well.

 

Vaccinated people who are infected spread it just as much as unvaccinated people who are infected.  Vaccinated people are still less likely to become infected in the first place.  
 

The news has been miserable at communicating this because they are trying to say two things at once.  There was a hope that vaccinated people who became infected might have lower viral loads and be less likely to spread it. The new evidence shows this is probably not true.  And vaccines are less effective at preventing infection from delta than from previous variants.  But that doesn’t mean that the vaccine isn’t more effective at stopping delta than no vaccine.

If you get sneezed on by a random person in the grocery store you’re still eight times more likely to have gotten a face full of covid if the person is unvaccinated.

  • Like 14
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Catwoman said:

According to this article, Delta can be spread in fleeting contacts of only 5-10 SECONDS.

I am hoping someone has information to the contrary, because this is terrifying.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/jun/24/its-in-the-air-you-breathe-what-you-need-to-know-about-sydneys-delta-covid-variant

Someone infected at the winery near us apparently said they just walked past the infected person and caught it.  Having said that we had positive cases fo to a lot of shops and so far no spread and it’s getting close to the 14 day mark so I suspect it’s only that way at certain parts of the course of infection or something.  

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, Danae said:

Vaccinated people who are infected spread it just as much as unvaccinated people who are infected.  Vaccinated people are still less likely to become infected in the first place.  
 

The news has been miserable at communicating this because they are trying to say two things at once.  There was a hope that vaccinated people who became infected might have lower viral loads and be less likely to spread it. The new evidence shows this is probably not true.  And vaccines are less effective at preventing infection from delta than from previous variants.  But that doesn’t mean that the vaccine isn’t more effective at stopping delta than no vaccine.

If you get sneezed on by a random person in the grocery store you’re still eight times more likely to have gotten a face full of covid if the person is unvaccinated.

Part of the reason the media isn't communicating what you want it to communicate is because  vaccinated people's infections spread around 50% less than unvaccinated people's infections.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Good article looking at why 10% of the population (across several countries) are non-compliant to covid restrictions. 

Extroverted, self-centred men less likely to comply with Covid restrictions, study suggests | Coronavirus | The Guardian

It talks about the cognitive openness thing, where people are less likely to seek our new information and experiences. I don't know if it's nature or nurture, but I wonder if fostering curiosity and treating anxiety can prevent some if it?

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Corraleno said:

That is not what the CDC said. They have stated that vaccines still significantly reduce the chances of getting infected to begin with, but the percentage of vaccinated people who do get infected tend to have viral loads similar to unvaccinated people. And according to the CDC, 97% of hospitalizations are in the unvaccinated — do you consider the the other 3% a "significant population"? 

Quote from the article:

"It cites a combination of recently obtained, still-unpublished data from outbreak investigations and outside studies showing that vaccinated individuals infected with delta may be able to transmit the virus as easily as those who are unvaccinated. Vaccinated people infected with delta have measurable viral loads similar to those who are unvaccinated and infected with the variant."

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, vonfirmath said:

Quote from the article:

"It cites a combination of recently obtained, still-unpublished data from outbreak investigations and outside studies showing that vaccinated individuals infected with delta may be able to transmit the virus as easily as those who are unvaccinated. Vaccinated people infected with delta have measurable viral loads similar to those who are unvaccinated and infected with the variant."

Uh, yeah, that's exactly what I said: "vaccinated people who get infected tend to have viral loads similar to unvaccinated people." That does NOT mean they are catching and spreading it "just as much as the unvaccinated" — because they are significantly less likely to catch it to begin with. You keep ignoring that part.

  • Like 5
  • Thanks 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, ieta_cassiopeia said:

Part of the reason the media isn't communicating what you want it to communicate is because  vaccinated people's infections spread around 50% less than unvaccinated people's infections.

 

9 minutes ago, Danae said:

Even better!

Eight times less likely to catch it and 1/2 as likely to spread it if you do. 

That is an old study and not accurate to the current variant.  Data moves quickly with a novel virus and a new variant, so dates matter.

Edited by melmichigan
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

Uh, yeah, that's exactly what I said: "vaccinated people who get infected tend to have viral loads similar to unvaccinated people." That does NOT mean they are catching and spreading it "just as much as the unvaccinated" — because they are significantly less likely to catch it to begin with. You keep ignoring that part.

Unvaccinated people who are not infect do not spread it either.

  • Like 1
  • Haha 3
  • Confused 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, vonfirmath said:

Unvaccinated people who are not infect do not spread it either.

🙄🙄🙄 Except that.they are much, much, much more like to become infected in the first place..   

Maybe some charts will help visualize the (very large) difference- this article has lots of charts compare # of vaxed vs unvaxed infected. https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/07/30/key-numbers-cdcs-new-assessment-delta-variant/

Edited by Matryoshka
  • Like 1
  • Thanks 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Catwoman said:

According to this article, Delta can be spread in fleeting contacts of only 5-10 SECONDS.

I am hoping someone has information to the contrary, because this is terrifying.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/jun/24/its-in-the-air-you-breathe-what-you-need-to-know-about-sydneys-delta-covid-variant

If that is the case, then we have a problem. They finally admitted SARS-CoV-2 Alpha is airborne. Now Delta is super contagious. I hate to bring it up yet again but eyes are a mucus membrane as well and people are walking around with their n95’s but no eye protection? They aren’t even talking about it? Anyone ever talked to someone in infection control? 

Edited by Plum
  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, Plum said:

If that is the case, then we have a problem. They finally admitted SARS-CoV-2 Alpha is airborne. Now Delta is super contagious. I hate to bring it up yet again but eyes are a mucus membrane as well and people are walking around with their n95’s but no eye protection? They aren’t even talking about it? Anyone ever talk to anyone in infection control? 

I think you probably mean talking about it in the general public. We are told to wear eye protection, as well as masks, at work, although the compliance with eye protection is not as good as with masks.

  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, Plum said:

If that is the case, then we have a problem. They finally admitted SARS-CoV-2 Alpha is airborne. Now Delta is super contagious. I hate to bring it up yet again but eyes are a mucus membrane as well and people are walking around with their n95’s but no eye protection? They aren’t even talking about it? Anyone ever talk to anyone in infection control? 

I agree! The only time I have been inside a building since the entire pandemic started was when I needed a mammogram, and I made sure to wear both an N95 mask and eye protection. I felt kind of ridiculous, but it turned out that the tech was wearing them, too, so I felt better about it. 

I keep asking different doctors about how likely it is to catch Covid via the eyes, and they all act like, “Well… it could happen, but it’s unlikely,” and when I ask them how they know it’s unlikely, they never seem to have any statistics. 

Don’t get me wrong — if there are no statistics, there are no statistics, but don’t act like people probably don’t need eye protection if you actually have no clue about it. 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@YaelAldrichhttps://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/29/delta-variant-israel-to-give-pfizer-covid-booster-shots-to-elderly-.html
“Israeli health officials plan to offer booster shots of the Pfizer-BioNTech Covid-19 vaccine to people over age 60 as the shot’s effectiveness appears to wane as the delta variant spreads across the world, NBC News confirmed Thursday.

The heads of health maintenance organizations that have been administering the Pfizer vaccine will begin administering third shots Sunday, according to NBC News. The booster shots are available for patients above 60 who have already received their second shot at least five months earlier.

The country’s Health Ministry reported last week that the two-dose vaccine is now just 39% effective in Israel where the highly transmissible delta variant is the dominant strain. The shot still works very well in preventing people from getting seriously sick, Israeli officials said, demonstrating 88% effectiveness against hospitalization and 91% effectiveness against severe illness.

The data out of Israel, which began vaccinating its population ahead of many other countries, is bolstering arguments from drugmakers that people will eventually need to get booster shots to protect against emerging variants.

Pfizer CEO Albert Bourla on Wednesday doubled down on his comments that people will need a third dose of the vaccine to maintain its high level of protection against the virus. The U.S. drugmaker published new data Wednesday from a company-funded study that showed the vaccine’s efficacy dropped to about 84% after four to six months.

“We have seen also data from Israel that there is a waning of immunity and that starts impacting what used to be what was 100% against hospitalization. Now, after the six-month period, is becoming low 90s and mid-to-high 80s,” Bourla said on CNBC’s “The Exchange.”

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the Food and Drug Administration and the World Health Organization have said they don’t recommend Covid booster shots at this time, citing a lack of data. U.S. and world health officials have said they are looking at the Israeli research, which was not peer-reviewed and was scant on details.

“We have to be mindful that, with time, the effectiveness of these vaccines may wane,” Dr. Isaac Bogoch, an infectious disease professor at the University of Toronto, said in a recent interview.”

  • Thanks 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

50 minutes ago, Plum said:

If that is the case, then we have a problem. They finally admitted SARS-CoV-2 Alpha is airborne. Now Delta is super contagious. I hate to bring it up yet again but eyes are a mucus membrane as well and people are walking around with their n95’s but no eye protection? They aren’t even talking about it? Anyone ever talked to someone in infection control? 

I did masks and face shields until I was fully vaccinated, and dropped to just a mask once I was, but I'm thinking I will pull out the face shields again.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not sure which of the covid threads to post this to, but apparently doctors in LA reporting a lot more Covid cases in kids.. (not just more cases, but are sicker)

https://www.cbs.com/shows/cbs_this_morning/video/kqdNQOwSHKYUoOsLL87boJW0iIU9cd0a/school-aged-kids-in-louisiana-have-the-third-largest-number-of-covid-infections/?fbclid=IwAR15z4v3D1jWtr7R2sIiqwILjaPvHKszsziJXrgtglvpOwio8vyUwCqoqg8

  • Sad 11
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, vonfirmath said:

There are others in the world that would rather we wait to vaccinate our low risk until they got their high risk folk vaccinated. But here we are. There will always be a population at risk.

ETA: I think I am very aware of the effect of the virus on other countries because of the kids I write there. I have not even found a way to mention I am vaccinated in my letters because all I can think is "How wealthy this makes me seem when their parents and grandparents don't even have the option to get a vaccine"  I keep encouraging them to wash their hands and keep their distance -- but even for keeping apart -- that's another privilege I have. Some of them are rural and maybe somewhat able to do it? But those who live in the cities? Not so much.

I agree we need to do everything we can to help vaccinate the rest of the world. I have sponsored children who are dear to me in Haiti who have no vaccine access in their communities at all, so I understand where you're coming from not knowing whether or what to say about vaccination when you write. But not using the vaccines we have in this country isn't going to help them at all. We have an excess here that are going to expire before we can coordinate logistics to have them exported to other countries (I'm still frustrated that it has to be so difficult, but my understanding is that it is). So, there's no greater good reason not to use what we already have. Further, doing so reduces the number of transmissions, which reduces the chances of this mutating so much that the vaccine no longer works as well as it does. Getting vaccines out to all the developing world is going to be hard enough, the last thing we want is for this to have already mutated too much by the time they finally get them.

 

4 hours ago, Danae said:

Vaccinated people who are infected spread it just as much as unvaccinated people who are infected.  Vaccinated people are still less likely to become infected in the first place.  
 

The news has been miserable at communicating this because they are trying to say two things at once.  There was a hope that vaccinated people who became infected might have lower viral loads and be less likely to spread it. The new evidence shows this is probably not true.  And vaccines are less effective at preventing infection from delta than from previous variants.  But that doesn’t mean that the vaccine isn’t more effective at stopping delta than no vaccine.

If you get sneezed on by a random person in the grocery store you’re still eight times more likely to have gotten a face full of covid if the person is unvaccinated.

I agree the news has communicated this really poorly. I think this also shows the results of poor education as regards comprehension skills. People just don't seem to have good comprehension of what they read, hear and watch. I don't know how to help that, because I don't know that it's really their fault. Certainly people not confusing the messaging would help. This particular message is inherently complicated.

4 hours ago, ieta_cassiopeia said:

Part of the reason the media isn't communicating what you want it to communicate is because  vaccinated people's infections spread around 50% less than unvaccinated people's infections.

As a note in addition to this being an older story, it's also based on just one shot.

 

1 hour ago, TCB said:

I think you probably mean talking about it in the general public. We are told to wear eye protection, as well as masks, at work, although the compliance with eye protection is not as good as with masks.

I'm not sure this is known yet, but I have wondered if eyes are a risk only as pertains to droplets, and not so much for aerosols. It seems to me aerosols would be more of a risk being breathed in, but that's not based on any data at this point. Incidentally, my own case of potential covid in March 2020 (not tested, and I will assume it was something else unless it is somehow proven otherwise) I think may have come from an eye appoinment. It fits the timing, and I had bad conjunctivitis on top of my severe respiratory illness, as did most of my family members who caught it at the same time.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

50 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

I did masks and face shields until I was fully vaccinated, and dropped to just a mask once I was, but I'm thinking I will pull out the face shields again.

Do you think a face shield is enough? A face shield won’t protect you from aerosol transmission.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, melmichigan said:

 

That is an old study and not accurate to the current variant.  Data moves quickly with a novel virus and a new variant, so dates matter.

Which one? We have conflicting information about viral loads under Delta in the USA for July-dated research - this one says the loads are very different, but this one says they're practically the same. Since neither of them actually measures transmissibility directly - unlike the study I used - I'm inclined to stick to the older research for transmissibility (since factors other than viral load may affect transmissibility, e.g. composition of each virus, demographic differences, non-vaccine COVID-relevant behaviour) and instead use the newer studies for understanding of potential changes to viral load (a component of transmissibility).

8 hours ago, Plum said:

If that is the case, then we have a problem. They finally admitted SARS-CoV-2 Alpha is airborne. Now Delta is super contagious. I hate to bring it up yet again but eyes are a mucus membrane as well and people are walking around with their n95’s but no eye protection? They aren’t even talking about it? Anyone ever talked to someone in infection control? 

Most places don't have enough eye cover for even their emergency workers, let alone anyone else who might want it. One of the two reasons WHO didn't immediately advise masks for everyone was that there were parts of the world with insufficient face masks or coverings to actually practise the advice. It would be far more extreme for eye protection (since on this logic, glasses and contact lenses would be partial protection at best).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the thing with viral load once you’ve reached a certain threshold it doesn’t matter as much how much more virus you produce?  What does seem to matter with delta is you get to that critical load sooner.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, Catwoman said:

Do you think a face shield is enough? A face shield won’t protect you from aerosol transmission.

As I said, masks AND  face shields. I did both until I was vaccinated, and will go back to both this fall. I got mine from a company specializing in pediatric dental office PPE. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm definitely having trouble following the science because it is changing so quickly lately. 

I wish there was someone who would put the goals all together for me with the relevant facts. It seems like this is no longer novel (a year and a half in), we have some treatments & vaccines, we know how to keep it from overwhelming hospitals (right?), we know the effect it has had on the elderly & medically fragile, we know cyber- schooling doesn't work for lots of kids,  we know kids transmit the virus,  we know that infected vaccinated individuals can transmit the virus, we know 6' isn't enough to keep people from getting infected with an aerosolized virus (but ever bit of spacing & ventilation helps), etc. 

Some of our understandings have changed in the last year,  some in the last month, some in the last week. I suspect the science will continue to change as the virus changes and more studies are done. 

The original goal was to flatten the curve. I don't think the goal now is elimination (in the US or worldwide except in certain countries). What is the goal now in light of the world not being able to be vaccinated for several years (if ever)? Knowing we will not be shutting our borders. Knowing we will keep traveling. Knowing the virus will keep mutating. Knowing vaccinated people transmit (some, less, same amount). What is our way forward on light of all this? Because I've lost the big picture.

  • Like 9
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Speaking of face shields... here is Tucker Carlson's unhinged, uninformed rant calling the US Secretary of Defense a "neurotic cat lady" for complying with Philippine law by wearing a mask and face shield:

"Today the secretary of defense appeared in public wearing this costume. That’s Mr. Lloyd Austin, ladies and gentlemen, the man in charge of our weapons systems. What’s he got on there? Is that a welder’s mask? Is it a dental visor? Has Lloyd Austin been cleaning teeth this morning? Nope. Looks like Lloyd Austin is just terrified of COVID.

Well then, why doesn’t he lose weight? Quite a bit of weight actually. That’s a good question. That would be the rational response. So, of course, he has not even considered that. Lloyd Austin instead got the vaccine. But he is still so petrified of corona that he put a windshield over his face and demanded that all of his dutiful little minions do the same – an entire army of dental hygienists. Watch out, China. Move against Taiwan and we’ll scrape the tartar off your molars.

And yet, even after all of those comically elaborate precautions, Lloyd Austin still looks scared for his life. Notice how he bumps their hands instead of shaking them. How long before Lloyd Austin is wearing surgical gloves in the shower and zip-tying garbage bags around his feet? The United States military is being run by a neurotic cat lady. Our entire government is at this point.”

 

  • Sad 12
Link to comment
Share on other sites

28 minutes ago, RootAnn said:

we have some treatments & vaccines, we know how to keep it from overwhelming hospitals (right?), 

 

I agree we need an end strategy, but wanted to comment on this. No, right now hospitals in Louisiana ( including a children's hospital) are overwhelmed.  I looked at the status of our hospitals, and we more than doubled in a week ( went from 50ish to over 200). If we double again, we will be overwhelmed. Only 1/3 of the people here are vaccinated...so.....  

But yeah, I don't know what we do.  How do we "live" with it when it is getting so bad again.

  • Like 2
  • Sad 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, RootAnn said:

I'm definitely having trouble following the science because it is changing so quickly lately. 

I wish there was someone who would put the goals all together for me with the relevant facts. It seems like this is no longer novel (a year and a half in), we have some treatments & vaccines, we know how to keep it from overwhelming hospitals (right?), we know the effect it has had on the elderly & medically fragile, we know cyber- schooling doesn't work for lots of kids,  we know kids transmit the virus,  we know that infected vaccinated individuals can transmit the virus, we know 6' isn't enough to keep people from getting infected with an aerosolized virus (but ever bit of spacing & ventilation helps), etc. 

Some of our understandings have changed in the last year,  some in the last month, some in the last week. I suspect the science will continue to change as the virus changes and more studies are done. 

The original goal was to flatten the curve. I don't think the goal now is elimination (in the US or worldwide except in certain countries). What is the goal now in light of the world not being able to be vaccinated for several years (if ever)? Knowing we will not be shutting our borders. Knowing we will keep traveling. Knowing the virus will keep mutating. Knowing vaccinated people transmit (some, less, same amount). What is our way forward on light of all this? Because I've lost the big picture.

Hospitals are still being overrun because unvaccinated people are being hospitalized in great numbers for Covid. We have treatments but they still aren’t enough to keep a lot of people from dying. 
 

The curve in many states is not flattened. The ones where they are flattened (or at least less of a spike) are the ones with high vaccination rates. We have vaccines but still have a lot of vaccine holdouts. 
 

We need to start “putting the oxygen mask on ourselves “ first as a nation. Get vaccines in arms. Then we won’t be spreading it as much if and when we travel. The US has provided and promised to provide more vaccines to other countries. That should continue but that isn’t in place of vaccinating ourselves as well. 

  • Like 8
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Dmmetler said:

As I said, masks AND  face shields. I did both until I was vaccinated, and will go back to both this fall. I got mine from a company specializing in pediatric dental office PPE. 

Oh, I’m sorry! I know you wear a mask — what I meant to ask is if you thought a face shield was adequate eye protection. I have heard that face shields are helpful against droplets, but not against aerosols, and I was wondering if you have heard something different.

I keep hoping there is new and more hopeful information that I have missed!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

Oh, I’m sorry! I know you wear a mask — what I meant to ask is if you thought a face shield was adequate eye protection. I have heard that face shields are helpful against droplets, but not against aerosols, and I was wondering if you have heard something different.

I keep hoping there is new and more hopeful information that I have missed!

I have based what I do on what pediatric dental offices do, because they have a lot of aerosol generating procedures, and have to walk the line between safety and not terrifying already nervous young patients. So, I have face shields that wrap around and go pretty low and high, plus well filtering masks, and they all have cute animals on them :). (My normal masks are Happy Masks, with a child sized surgical mask that can fit under the happy mask if numbers are such that I double mask, and I can wear a medium, so all the cute patterns are available).  I also run air filters, keep as much ventilation as I can, and have adapted to distancing. 

It's a compromise that seems to have worked OK last school year, and hopefully will for Delta, especially since I'm vaccinated. 

  • Like 5
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I think the thing with viral load once you’ve reached a certain threshold it doesn’t matter as much how much more virus you produce?  What does seem to matter with delta is you get to that critical load sooner.

The other thing I’m seeing the last two days are studies showing that vaccinated people who become infected with delta clear the virus more quickly than the unvaccinated (as one would expect). This means that while initial loads may be equivalent, the vaccinated people drop down to uninfectious levels more quickly, so they have less time they might transmit compared to unvaccinated. 

  • Like 15
Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, Catwoman said:

I agree! The only time I have been inside a building since the entire pandemic started was when I needed a mammogram, and I made sure to wear both an N95 mask and eye protection. I felt kind of ridiculous, but it turned out that the tech was wearing them, too, so I felt better about it. 

I keep asking different doctors about how likely it is to catch Covid via the eyes, and they all act like, “Well… it could happen, but it’s unlikely,” and when I ask them how they know it’s unlikely, they never seem to have any statistics. 

Don’t get me wrong — if there are no statistics, there are no statistics, but don’t act like people probably don’t need eye protection if you actually have no clue about it. 

I remember reading several things about eye protection being useful, including showing even regular glasses can be helpful. Due to this, my husband wore goggles at work for quite awhile and will likely start again. I also know some people who have done this when flying.

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Corraleno said:

Speaking of face shields... here is Tucker Carlson's unhinged, uninformed rant calling the US Secretary of Defense a "neurotic cat lady" for complying with Philippine law by wearing a mask and face shield:

"Today the secretary of defense appeared in public wearing this costume. That’s Mr. Lloyd Austin, ladies and gentlemen, the man in charge of our weapons systems. What’s he got on there? Is that a welder’s mask? Is it a dental visor? Has Lloyd Austin been cleaning teeth this morning? Nope. Looks like Lloyd Austin is just terrified of COVID.

Well then, why doesn’t he lose weight? Quite a bit of weight actually. That’s a good question. That would be the rational response. So, of course, he has not even considered that. Lloyd Austin instead got the vaccine. But he is still so petrified of corona that he put a windshield over his face and demanded that all of his dutiful little minions do the same – an entire army of dental hygienists. Watch out, China. Move against Taiwan and we’ll scrape the tartar off your molars.

And yet, even after all of those comically elaborate precautions, Lloyd Austin still looks scared for his life. Notice how he bumps their hands instead of shaking them. How long before Lloyd Austin is wearing surgical gloves in the shower and zip-tying garbage bags around his feet? The United States military is being run by a neurotic cat lady. Our entire government is at this point.”

 

And yet some still want to claim that low vaccination rates are all the fault of the left, both the message and the messengers. It’s complicated and public health officials are doing their very best to meet people where they are. But they have to deal with this kind of divisive crap being watched by millions every day. What a sad reflection on the character of our country that he is so popular.

  • Like 9
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, RootAnn said:

we have some treatments & vaccines, we know how to keep it from overwhelming hospitals (right?),

We have some treatments, but no magic bullets. My understanding is that there's nothing yet which would, for example, be the equivalent of an antibiotic to treat a bacterial infection. There's hope for new treatments currently in research, but not presently available.

Hospitals are absolutely getting overwhelmed. We know how to prevent that: the population needs to be vaccinated. 

 

4 hours ago, RootAnn said:

The original goal was to flatten the curve. I don't think the goal now is elimination (in the US or worldwide except in certain countries). What is the goal now in light of the world not being able to be vaccinated for several years (if ever)?

I think the goal is to vaccinate as many as possible, and then get them booster shots as needed, in hopes of saving lives, preventing the next dangerous variant, and continuing to prevent hospitals from being overwhelmed. 

On a population level, that probably should mean a hard shutdown for several weeks, plus a heavy, all-hands-on-deck approach to mass vaccination, plus universal masking. If we did it right now, we could get numbers way down before most schools start in September. Kids in middle and high school could have at least one dose, maybe two by then, and be in better shape to attend school in person.

But we won't do that, because people won't tolerate it.

I think local influencers like ministers, doctors, coaches could do a lot of good if they talked about how important vaccination is, and held local events where vaccination is available. That's happening in some places: people here have posted examples.

My own goal at this point is just to keep my family safe. We're all vaccinated. We're returning to masking. I'm ordering N95s. 

Edited by Innisfree
  • Like 7
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah..hospitals here are not "overwhelmed" in that people are dying on stretchers in the parking lot, but they are canceling all any elective procedures or outpatient procedures that are not "time sensitive". Hospitals don't cancel stuff if they are not overwhelmed. 

  • Like 3
  • Thanks 1
  • Sad 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...