Jump to content

Menu

Recommended Posts

  • Replies 18.2k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

  • Ausmumof3

    3025

  • Pen

    2299

  • square_25

    1708

  • Arcadia

    1337

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

DS got home 3 hours ago!  ❤️❤️

That's not a blanket right.  If my religion required human sacrifice, I can't practice it.  If my religion required sexual assault, I can't practice it. Freedom of religion isn't a blanket right

Update-  my youngest is not only short of breath, coughing, dizzy, nausaues, and with headache-  she is also confused.  I called our doctor and talked with him and she is going to be going to the ER.

Posted Images

23 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

I would love to see research into other ionophores. For example, here is a study that tested hinokitiol (extracted from cypress) and pyrithione (extract from Persian shallots) in conjunction with zinc and found that both combinations were effective in inhibiting proliferation of rhinovirus, coxsackievirus, and mengovirus.  https://jvi.asm.org/content/83/1/58

This study found that quercetin and Epigallocatechin-gallate (the major catechin in tea) were effective zinc ionophores: https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/jf5014633

Ivermectin is also supposed to function as a zinc ionophore — I thought there was going to be a study on ivermectin, did that ever happen?

There was a lot of talk a few months ago about a quercetin trial that I think was sponsored by researchers in Montreal but was going to take place in China? Anyone know if that study happened and if so, are the results are available?

 

The ivermectin study is ongoing, you can search clinicaltrials.gov

Some country, Brazil or India maybe, based on what they've seen, was  using HCQ + vitamin D but has now added ivermectin, all cheap readily available drugs/vitamins with few side effects.  Thousands in the military deploying to places where malaria is present have taken HCQ, only side effect is normally GI issues for a percentage of the population.  I saw a study that the heart issues were not related to HCQ but to Coronavirus, and also another study, not at the lower doses you really need of HCQ.

ETA: Brazil, here is their "Covid Kit."

829306857_ScreenShot2020-07-24at5_43_04PM.thumb.png.0c211fac6afc30f1a3007f5b65d8977e.png

Edited by ElizabethB
  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

I've taken malaria prophylactics (can't remember if it was hcq or not) but found it very very difficult to take.  As in I often vomited right after taking it.  (TMI - sorry.)

I've taken Ivermectin (for parasites).  That too was pretty harsh on the body.  I actually took it for longer than normally prescribed but it's usually prescribed for very short times.  The pharmacist raised her eyebrows very high when she saw how much I was prescribed. 

I take Quercetin regularly.  It isn't hard on my body at all.

ETA:  I take zinc too but I wasn't trying to link Quercetin and zinc.  I just happen to take both.

I would really want studies done before people who aren't knowledgeable about these meds prescribe them.  BTW - the anti-malarial pills were by a specialist in tropical medicine - not by a GP or even just an internal med. doc.  And the Ivermectin was by a doctor who specialized in hard to diagnose and cure conditions.  In other words, neither were just given randomly to see "if it worked".  (Obviously there is a place for experimentation but I think that it is within the confines of a controlled study.)

Edited by Jean in Newcastle
  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, square_25 said:

Yeah. I really don't think we should be making HCQ available over the counter. We'll have people with bad side effects, almost certainly. Whatever you think of the studies, practically all the studies agree that there can be side effects with incorrect dosage. 

Well, I didn't say anything about OTC. Just that I would love to see the results of a well done study that involved the actual thing being promoted not pieces and parts of it.

And I understand wanting things to work. 

Edited by frogger
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, frogger said:

But I wonder why no one chooses to add the zinc component when that is what the uproar is about? 

 

I really don't know. I'm just curious.

Well, I think most of the uproar isn't because of promising theories about HCQ acting in tandem with zinc.  I think most of the enthusiasm for the drug is because the president touted it.  

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

I've taken HCQ as a malaria prophylactic myself, and despite experiencing severe nausea, I wouldn't hesitate to take it for Covid if there were good solid randomized clinical trials showing that it is effective. But so far, no one has been able to link even one. IMO, the fact that a few other countries may be using it despite the lack of evidence does not constitute evidence in its favor.

  • Like 8
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Terabith said:

Well, I think most of the uproar isn't because of promising theories about HCQ acting in tandem with zinc.  I think most of the enthusiasm for the drug is because the president touted it.  

 

I thought so too at first but it seems pointless to keep doing studies with HCQ and no Zinc and that seems to have been replicated already and was a no go.

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites
37 minutes ago, frogger said:

Well, I didn't say anything about OTC. Just that I would love to see the results of a well done study that involved the actual thing being promoted not pieces and parts of it.

And I understand wanting things to work. 

Oh, sure, I'd love a good study. Good studies are hard to come by. 

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, frogger said:

 

I thought so too at first but it seems pointless to keep doing studies with HCQ and no Zinc and that seems to have been replicated already and was a no go.

Do people actually think Zinc is how it's supposed to work? Because I assume people running these studies aren't stupid. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, square_25 said:

Do people actually think Zinc is how it's supposed to work? Because I assume people running these studies aren't stupid. 

 

Have we not been reading the same thread?

And your definition of stupid is? Doctors and researchers do all sorts of stuff and that includes call each other stupid when the disagreeing parties probably have at least above average IQ.  LOL

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, whitehawk said:

We don't have to be as stupid to do more harm, simply because there are twelve times as many of us.

 

Lol!

 

1 hour ago, whitehawk said:

I found my pulmonologist visit less than helpful. Now taking more medicines to less effect. *sigh*

Bummer ☹️

Link to post
Share on other sites

Well I may have found one for you. It says peer reviewed but an article about it not the actual paper I think.

 

https://www.henryford.com/news/2020/07/hydro-treatment-study

 

ETA Ok it’s kind of old- July 2, also it looked like it said 18% reduction in mortality which I don’t think is as much reduction as Dexamethasone

 

ETA 2 - Just saw a comment that it may not have been well controlled, was observational and many were also given steroids

Edited by TCB
  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, square_25 said:

Do people actually think Zinc is how it's supposed to work? Because I assume people running these studies aren't stupid. 

 

18 minutes ago, frogger said:

 

Have we not been reading the same thread?

And your definition of stupid is? Doctors and researchers do all sorts of stuff and that includes call each other stupid when the disagreeing parties probably have at least above average IQ.  LOL

Actually, it started because it was effective against SARS, they started looking at things that worked with other similar diseases.

Some people think it may work as a zinc ionophore, but there are other theories about its main mechanism, and it may be doing several things.  People don't always know exactly why a drug works.

Yes, high IQ people can do stupid things, LOL.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, frogger said:

Have we not been reading the same thread?

And your definition of stupid is? Doctors and researchers do all sorts of stuff and that includes call each other stupid when the disagreeing parties probably have at least above average IQ.  LOL

I'm just wondering why no one is trying this, and whether this is a conventional interpretation of what the mechanism of effect is. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, TCB said:

Well I may have found one for you. It says peer reviewed but an article about it not the actual paper I think.

 

https://www.henryford.com/news/2020/07/hydro-treatment-study

 

ETA Ok it’s kind of old- July 2, also it looked like it said 18% reduction in mortality which I don’t think is as much reduction as Dexamethasone

 

They aren’t an either this or that.  

Dexamethasone is more useful later in disease course probably not a good idea prophylactic or early.  

HCQ + zinc the opposite.  

Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, TCB said:

Well I may have found one for you. It says peer reviewed but an article about it not the actual paper I think.

 

https://www.henryford.com/news/2020/07/hydro-treatment-study

 

ETA Ok it’s kind of old- July 2, also it looked like it said 18% reduction in mortality which I don’t think is as much reduction as Dexamethasone

 

ETA 2 - Just saw a comment that it may not have been well controlled, was observational and many were also given steroids

The “nonHCQ group” also had a significantly higher median age and were significantly sicker than the HCQ treatment group 

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

They aren’t an either this or that.  

Dexamethasone is more useful later in disease course probably not a good idea prophylactic or early.  

HCQ + zinc the opposite.  

I realize that, it was just an observation about the reduction in mortality. We use dexamethasone for those needing oxygen therapy as well as those needing ventilation.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

I posted in the other thread, but I can’t find any of my links right now - they’re too far back in my history. When I next come across them I’ll repost, but there were six or seven good studies I’ve seen compiled in the last two months, mostly from outside the US.  I need to start bookmarking these, sigh.

  • Like 5
Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Bagels McGruffikin said:

I posted in the other thread, but I can’t find any of my links right now - they’re too far back in my history. When I next come across them I’ll repost, but there were six or seven good studies I’ve seen compiled in the last two months, mostly from outside the US.  I need to start bookmarking these, sigh.

I will pick them apart, I warn ;-). (Nothing personal, it's just what I do.) 

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Bagels McGruffikin said:

I posted in the other thread, but I can’t find any of my links right now - they’re too far back in my history. When I next come across them I’ll repost, but there were six or seven good studies I’ve seen compiled in the last two months, mostly from outside the US.  I need to start bookmarking these, sigh.

I haven't seen those studies either, but my uncle (who spent the majority of his career as a doctor in Africa) believes this is a helpful mix.  Don't know what it's based on, and I'm curious what studies are out there.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

We have a friend who is a nurse in a hospital that sees a lot of Covid-19 patients. He says that they can see a difference with HCQ early and plasma late, and is mad that the news media is not reporting about either. They're not doing studies, they're just using what they see works with all patients that come in. (He's mad at all news, it's not political! He also says he doesn't know why plasma would be political because no one has said anything about it.)

Edited by ElizabethB
  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

I think one part of the reason we don’t have good HCQ studies is because after the lancet study that has been called into question claiming it was a safety risk lots and lots of studies were stopped or put on hold.  Some have recommenced but I suspect that delay is why we haven’t had much recent info.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Israeli data showing breakdown of where of infections were acquired in the past week 

https://www.haaretz.com/amp/israel-news/.premium-data-shows-where-israelis-contract-the-coronavirus-1.9005504?__twitter_impression=true
 

education institutions, events and places of  Worship came in top.  Beaches and Pools, salons and social gatherings at the bottom.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, ElizabethB said:

We have a friend who is a nurse in a hospital that sees a lot of Covid-19 patients. He says that they can see a difference with HCQ early and plasma late, and is mad that the news media is not reporting about either. They're not doing studies, they're just using what they see works with all patients that come in. (He's mad at all news, it's not political! He also says he doesn't know why plasma would be political because no one has said anything about it.)

But how can they "see a difference" if there's no control group — a "difference" ... compared to what? If everyone gets the drug, there is no control group. If they are selecting the healthiest patients to get it, they have no way of knowing whether all those people would have done just as well without it. If they're giving it in conjunction with other treatments, they have no way of knowing which component is significant, and by how much. This is why pharmaceutical trials must be randomized, blind, and placebo-controlled.

The University of Minnesota's large, randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled study showed no benefit from HCQ. The large, randomized RECOVERY study in UK showed no benefit. Anecdotal accounts from random healthcare workers who want to believe that it helps their patients do not outweigh the evidence of "gold standard" clinical trials.

  • Like 9
Link to post
Share on other sites

We are going to have a pretty hard border closure with VIC.  South Australians have until Tuesday to get home then they’ll be banned for returning.  I haven’t seen the finer details yet as there always seem to be some exceptions.  We’re also back to limits of 50 in homes and 100 for funerals and weddings.  (25,000 is apparently fine for the football though)

Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

But how can they "see a difference" if there's no control group — a "difference" ... compared to what? If everyone gets the drug, there is no control group. If they are selecting the healthiest patients to get it, they have no way of knowing whether all those people would have done just as well without it. If they're giving it in conjunction with other treatments, they have no way of knowing which component is significant, and by how much. This is why pharmaceutical trials must be randomized, blind, and placebo-controlled.

The University of Minnesota's large, randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled study showed no benefit from HCQ. The large, randomized RECOVERY study in UK showed no benefit. Anecdotal accounts from random healthcare workers who want to believe that it helps their patients do not outweigh the evidence of "gold standard" clinical trials.

Difference because they saw a lot of patients when the whole Covid thing started, before there were any treatments, a certain percentage of them died.

Now, he said they only patients they have die are those the are 80+ or a few who are over 60 and have multiple conditions.  So, seeing a lot of patients still but a lot fewer deaths. 

Yes, there should be randomized trials, but if the effect is big enough, doctors and nurses notice.

I haven't seen an early randomized trial of HCQ with zinc.  He says HCQ only helps early, and plasma may help early but it helps late, so they save it for late, they have limited amounts, they try HCQ first.

He feels that it is wrong to withhold treatment with minimal risk waiting for a trial that may never happen. They are not a research hospital, they only see patients.

Edited by ElizabethB
  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Apparently the U of MN study also looked at HCQ + zinc and found no additional benefit. This comment was in an article reporting the results of the U of MN study:

"Boulware said there was hope that zinc would boost the effectiveness of the drug, but neither of the U’s first two studies showed any improved benefit for patients who took that supplement."

  • Like 3
  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, ElizabethB said:

Difference because they saw a lot of patients when the whole Covid thing started, before there were any treatments, a certain percentage of them died.

Now, he said they only patients they have die are those the are 80+ or a few who are over 60 and have multiple conditions.  So, seeing a lot of patients still but a lot fewer deaths. 

Yes, there should be randomized trials, but if the effect is big enough, doctors and nurses notice.

I haven't seen an early randomized trial of HCQ with zinc.  He says HCQ only helps early, and plasma may help early but it helps late, so they save it for late, they have limited amounts, they try HCQ first.

He feels that it is wrong to withhold treatment with minimal risk waiting for a trial that may never happen. They are not a research hospital, they only see patients.

Dh (RN who does deal with COVID19 patients but not in the ICU) says that a big reason why there are fewer deaths is the move away from putting patients on ventilators.  So it's not necessarily simply what meds are being used. 

  • Like 7
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Dh (RN who does deal with COVID19 patients but not in the ICU) says that a big reason why there are fewer deaths is the move away from putting patients on ventilators.  So it's not necessarily simply what meds are being used. 

That's possible, too, I'm not sure when they stopped using vents vs. when they started with HCQ, but they only started plasma recently and he said he's seen an additional drop in deaths from late patients with the addition of plasma.

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, ElizabethB said:

Difference because they saw a lot of patients when the whole Covid thing started, before there were any treatments, a certain percentage of them died.

Now, he said they only patients they have die are those the are 80+ or a few who are over 60 and have multiple conditions.  So, seeing a lot of patients still but a lot fewer deaths. 

But that is generally true everywhere, whether patients are treated with HCQ or not. Doctors have a much better understanding now of how to manage ARDS (e.g. proning and high-flo nasal cannula instead of ventilators), we now understand that Covid can present in many ways, not just fever and cough, and testing is far more widely available, which means people are getting tested, diagnosed, and treated sooner. It's not valid to compare the survival rates of patients in July to survival rates in March and conclude that HCQ is the one thing that is making the difference when so many other things have changed. 

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, ElizabethB said:

We have a friend who is a nurse in a hospital that sees a lot of Covid-19 patients. He says that they can see a difference with HCQ early and plasma late, and is mad that the news media is not reporting about either. They're not doing studies, they're just using what they see works with all patients that come in. (He's mad at all news, it's not political! He also says he doesn't know why plasma would be political because no one has said anything about it.)

I've seen tons in the media about plasma treatments. 

 

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

I've seen tons in the media about plasma treatments. 

 

Maybe he quit too soon, I'll let him know! 

It might be more restful for him to not watch, though, he does have a lot going on at work, news is not really restful viewing right now.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

https://www.adelaidenow.com.au/subscribe/news/1/?sourceCode=AAWEB_MRE170_a&dest=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.adelaidenow.com.au%2Flifestyle%2Fsa-weekend%2Fsa-weekend-australian-soldiers-call-for-royal-commission-into-malaria-drugs-scandal%2Fnews-story%2F2806e894e466ee6850ed5e104b5e26b8&memtype=anonymous&mode=premium
 

does anyone know more about this?  I don’t have a tonne of trust in the reliability of this news source so I’m wondering if this is a credible link.  Australia East Timor veterans who were given antimalarial drugs including HCQ claim it causes depression and anxiety etc.  That was only one of the named drugs so I think it’s just being raised due to the Covid thing.  But are there any concerns over psychiatric effects with it?

Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Pen said:

I certainly don’t think it should be mandatory — so that anyone who feels uncomfortable with it would not take it.

If supplies are limited maybe it should first be offered to HCW, LEO, teachers etc.    especially people who would be at risk from CV19, but not particularly at risk from HCQ.  But I think if it can be an over the counter medicine in Venezuela, it can be in USA too.  I don’t think Americans are hugely more stupid than Venezuelans.   Idk.  Maybe Americans are.

 

 

 

Almost all meds are OTC in Venezuela. The only things that need a prescription are controlled substances (opioids, stimulants, etc.)

Also, malaria has made quite the comeback, so HCQ is needed for its original purpose.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

We are going to have a pretty hard border closure with VIC.  South Australians have until Tuesday to get home then they’ll be banned for returning.  I haven’t seen the finer details yet as there always seem to be some exceptions.  We’re also back to limits of 50 in homes and 100 for funerals and weddings.  (25,000 is apparently fine for the football though)

I really feel for all those tiny border towns that are now struggling. right along the Vic /NSW border and now the Vic /SA border

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6930e1.htm?s_cid=mm6930e1_w

In a multistate telephone survey of symptomatic adults who had a positive outpatient test result for SARS-CoV-2 infection, 35% had not returned to their usual state of health when interviewed 2–3 weeks after testing. Among persons aged 18–34 years with no chronic medical conditions, one in five had not returned to their usual state of health.

 

  • Like 3
  • Thanks 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, cintinative said:

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6930e1.htm?s_cid=mm6930e1_w

In a multistate telephone survey of symptomatic adults who had a positive outpatient test result for SARS-CoV-2 infection, 35% had not returned to their usual state of health when interviewed 2–3 weeks after testing. Among persons aged 18–34 years with no chronic medical conditions, one in five had not returned to their usual state of health.

 

That actually fewer than I would have thought, given our personal sample, but maybe that sample leans older.

2-3 weeks is also not super long. I’ve had colds last that long. I’d be much more curious about what happens after a few months.

  • Like 6
Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, square_25 said:

That actually fewer than I would have thought, given our personal sample, but maybe that sample leans older.

2-3 weeks is also not super long. I’ve had colds last that long. I’d be much more curious about what happens after a few months.

 

I probably should have linked this, but it doesn't share a lot more, other than a reference to a woman who has had symptoms since March, and a "long timers club." My friend's mom is in this "club"--she has been sick since February.  https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/monumental-acknowledgment-cdc-reports-long-term-covid-19-patients-n1234814?fbclid=IwAR0y-iAliTdLS-gYe-b5WIf4kMwtv-8kYNfMoO5qjkqIILeclvEbU2aV_Gs

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, cintinative said:

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6930e1.htm?s_cid=mm6930e1_w

In a multistate telephone survey of symptomatic adults who had a positive outpatient test result for SARS-CoV-2 infection, 35% had not returned to their usual state of health when interviewed 2–3 weeks after testing. Among persons aged 18–34 years with no chronic medical conditions, one in five had not returned to their usual state of health.

 

These are far better numbers than I have seen elsewhere. Usually they are following up on hospitalized cases, so I knew the number of long timers was skewed high. I just haven't known how high. So 65% of symptomatic cases had fully recovered in 2-3 weeks, that's so much better than I have been thinking. It does happen to fit my personal sample, but I haven't wanted to give that too much weight.

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, TracyP said:

These are far better numbers than I have seen elsewhere. Usually they are following up on hospitalized cases, so I knew the number of long timers was skewed high. I just haven't known how high. So 65% of symptomatic cases had fully recovered in 2-3 weeks, that's so much better than I have been thinking. It does happen to fit my personal sample, but I haven't wanted to give that too much weight.

Yeah, it's still higher than I would like it, but it's actually kind of encouraging. Not that I want to test those percentages in my family... 

Edited by square_25
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Dh (RN who does deal with COVID19 patients but not in the ICU) says that a big reason why there are fewer deaths is the move away from putting patients on ventilators.  So it's not necessarily simply what meds are being used. 

My personal guess is that there are fewer deaths only because the hospitalized population is very different from the early days of the pandemic -- more spread out, so they take less sick cases. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...