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I'm taking my oldest to get tested today - she ran a fever Friday night and this was the first appointment I could get. She has always had dizzy spells when standing up, but now they are bad, starting. They got worse a day or two before other symptoms. And my next two kids have mentioned having dizzy spells in the last 24 hours. No known exposure, but Dd17 has been taking two college classes (masked) and works two jobs (also masked). In your reading, have you seen dizziness as an early indicator?

I used the word dizzy because that is the word Ds14 just used, but it is more lightheadedness. Dd17 has almost passed out several times and has to hold onto the bed each time she stands up.

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DS got home 3 hours ago!  ❤️❤️

Update-  my youngest is not only short of breath, coughing, dizzy, nausaues, and with headache-  she is also confused.  I called our doctor and talked with him and she is going to be going to the ER.

Thought I'd post a pic of my dd, getting ready to spend another day in a coronavirus triage tent!  

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9 minutes ago, Meriwether said:

I'm taking my oldest to get tested today - she ran a fever Friday night and this was the first appointment I could get. She has always had dizzy spells when standing up, but now they are bad, starting. They got worse a day or two before other symptoms. And my next two kids have mentioned having dizzy spells in the last 24 hours. No known exposure, but Dd17 has been taking two college classes (masked) and works two jobs (also masked). In your reading, have you seen dizziness as an early indicator?

I used the word dizzy because that is the word Ds14 just used, but it is more lightheadedness. Dd17 has almost passed out several times and has to hold onto the bed each time she stands up.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-06-29/health-problems-caused-by-covid-19/12402852
 

unfortunately yes it can be but it’s not one of the more common ones.  Hopefully it’s not Covid and is something minor.  I’m assuming iron levels, blood sugar etc are ok?

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Just now, Ausmumof3 said:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-06-29/health-problems-caused-by-covid-19/12402852
 

unfortunately yes it can be but it’s not one of the more common ones.  Hopefully it’s not Covid and is something minor.  I’m assuming iron levels, blood sugar etc are ok?

I would assume so. They are all generally very healthy. It seemed odd to me that they all experienced it if it is Covid, since Covid seems to affect people differently. I'm hoping it is another bug.

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Just now, Meriwether said:

I would assume so. They are all generally very healthy. It seemed odd to me that they all experienced it if it is Covid, since Covid seems to affect people differently. I'm hoping it is another bug.

Dizziness is also one of those weird things for me at least that if I start thinking about being dizzy I kind of get slightly dizzy so could be a bit of that going on.  Could be worth check pulse oximeter if you have access to one just to be on the safe side.  

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29 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Dizziness is also one of those weird things for me at least that if I start thinking about being dizzy I kind of get slightly dizzy so could be a bit of that going on.  Could be worth check pulse oximeter if you have access to one just to be on the safe side.  

We do have one and the kids are fine in that respect. I asked Ds14 and he said he almost passed out when standing up, but his pulse ox showed 99 ox with a normal heartrate. I guess we'll see when we get Dd's test results.

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2 hours ago, Meriwether said:

We do have one and the kids are fine in that respect. I asked Ds14 and he said he almost passed out when standing up, but his pulse ox showed 99 ox with a normal heartrate. I guess we'll see when we get Dd's test results.

I look after people later on in the process but a number of them have complained of dizziness so it may be a more common symptom than we know, at the moment.

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SA (my state) just opened up to New Zealand.

one positive in Vic in someone who had already previously tested positive so may be just an unusually long shedding period (or the scary alternative is a reinfection)

2 new cases in NSW.

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Re aerosols — from a small study back from

April. But as prevalence of CV19 rises, more places like churches, offices, homes, dorms, etc., may increasingly have virus present more similar to what hospitals had in April.  Or going about daily life our ordinary clothing may have more .   

 

“In general, medical staff areas had higher concentrations of SARS-CoV-2 aerosols compared with patient areas in both hospitals during the first round of sampling (17–24 February 2020) at the peak of the COVID-19 outbreak (Table 1). For sampling sites at Renmin Hospital, the air circulation in medical staff areas is isolated by design from the air circulation in the patient rooms. By contrast, in Fangcang Hospital, the non-ventilated temporary PPAR was isolated from the patient hall, in which the aerosol concentration of SARS-CoV-2 was generally low. The second round of sampling of total suspended particles in medical staff areas of Fangcang Hospital was conducted after the number of patients reduced from more than 200 to less than 100 per zone and the implementation of more rigorous and thorough sanitization measures, including more frequent spraying of chlorinated disinfectant on the floor of patient areas, additional disinfection using 3% hydrogen peroxide in the PPAR at least once a week, thoroughly spraying alcohol disinfectant on the protective apparel before taking it off and an increased operation time of indoor air purifiers. The samples from this second round showed all undetectable results (Table 1), confirming the importance of sanitization in reducing the amount of airborne SARS-CoV-2 in high-risk areas.

SARS-CoV-2 aerosols were mainly found to include two size ranges, one in the submicrometre region (dp between 0.25 and 1.0 μm) and the other in supermicrometre region (dp > 2.5 μm). Aerosols in the submicrometre region were predominantly found in PPARs in zones B and C of Fangcang Hospital (Fig. 1a, b) with peak concentrations of 40 and 9 copies m−3 in the 0.25–0.5 μm and 0.5–1.0 μm range, respectively. By contrast, aerosols in the supermicrometre region were mainly observed in the PPAR of zone C of Fangcang Hospital (Fig. 1b) with concentrations of 7 copies m−3. The medical staff’s office (Fig. 1c) had more virus-laden aerosols in the supermicrometre size range, but the size distribution is flatter compared with the range in other areas. Reports on the resuspension of microorganisms from the floor, clothing and furniture have previously been noted to contribute to the generation of microbial aerosols in the built environment14. Therefore, we hypothesize that the source of the submicrometre peak is the resuspension of virus-laden aerosols from the surface of the protective apparel worn by medical staff while they are removing the equipment. The submicrometre virus-laden aerosols may originally come from the direct deposition of respiratory droplets or airborne SARS-CoV-2 from a patient onto the protective apparel as evidenced by the deposition samples (Table 1). The higher mobility owing to their smaller aerodynamic diameter facilitates the resuspension from the surface of protective apparel after gaining the initial velocity while the equipment is being removed. On the other hand, floor-deposited SARS-CoV-2 is possibly the source of supermicrometre virus-laden aerosols and was carried across different areas by medical staff. Furthermore, a recent study has experimentally demonstrated that SARS-CoV-2 could maintain its biological stability in aerosols and on different surfaces for hours to days15. “

 

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2271-3

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37 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Am I right in thinking this is a pretty big deal because it wouldn’t normally get past ethics etc?

 

I think so.  Not unique in history, but an ethics consideration. Even if people volunteer

it seems especially tricky if it were randomized with placebo

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

I think so.  Not unique in history, but an ethics consideration. Even if people volunteer

it seems especially tricky if it were randomized with placebo

 

 

Do you know if all of the potential vaccines are being tested against an inert placebo in all phases?  In most other vaccines, there isn't a true control, just another vaccine (different type, different brand, or previous version) or the ingredients of the vaccine being tested minus the pathogen.  It would give us very solid data and a clear picture (e.g. short-term side effects and efficacy) if a true inert placebo is used and a challenge study is done.  If that is the case, more people might be willing to get it.

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1 hour ago, hopeallgoeswell said:

Do you know if all of the potential vaccines are being tested against an inert placebo in all phases?  In most other vaccines, there isn't a true control, just another vaccine (different type, different brand, or previous version) or the ingredients of the vaccine being tested minus the pathogen.  It would give us very solid data and a clear picture (e.g. short-term side effects and efficacy) if a true inert placebo is used and a challenge study is done.  If that is the case, more people might be willing to get it.

 

When I read some study protocols it looked like some were using saline/inert as control and some were using another vaccine. I can’t recall which was which, nor for sure what was for which phase. 

 

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3 hours ago, hopeallgoeswell said:

Do you know if all of the potential vaccines are being tested against an inert placebo in all phases?  In most other vaccines, there isn't a true control, just another vaccine (different type, different brand, or previous version) or the ingredients of the vaccine being tested minus the pathogen.  It would give us very solid data and a clear picture (e.g. short-term side effects and efficacy) if a true inert placebo is used and a challenge study is done.  If that is the case, more people might be willing to get it.

The reason an alternative vaccine is given is so that people don't know which group they are in; often vaccines cause some level of inflammation. If the "control" group knows they are control because of lack of inflammation, it ceases to be a double-blind study and the information loses a lot of value. 

I always get an RSI (repetitive stress injury) flare up in my wrists for a day or two post-flu vaccine. Some years I get mild back ache, too. If I had a shot and had nothing happen, I would know it was just saline.

Emily

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6 hours ago, hopeallgoeswell said:

Do you know if all of the potential vaccines are being tested against an inert placebo in all phases?  In most other vaccines, there isn't a true control, just another vaccine (different type, different brand, or previous version) or the ingredients of the vaccine being tested minus the pathogen.  It would give us very solid data and a clear picture (e.g. short-term side effects and efficacy) if a true inert placebo is used and a challenge study is done.  If that is the case, more people might be willing to get it.

I think Emily kind of already answered this but I think the issue with placebo for vaccine is typically people get a mild reaction from the vaccine that they don’t get from saline so it’s very easy for people to figure out.  I’ve seen a couple of people who participated in trials saying they are pretty sure they got the saline because of no effect.  
 

I think ideally if you had time after the safety trials you’d also want to do a comparison trial between the top three or so that get through to see which is best (or possibly which combination).  But we probably won’t have that luxury with this:

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5 cases today in Vic.  One has put a public housing building with 500 people into quarantine.  And there’s a kid who attended school contagious for two days resulting in two schools being locked down.  Both very reminiscent of the beginning of the outbreak.  Hopefully doesn’t lead to anything more.  
 

I see according to a Chinese news site that my state is planning to bring Chinese students back in.  I haven’t seen this from anything official locally.  I suspect it will be somewhat unpopular.

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9 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I think ideally if you had time after the safety trials you’d also want to do a comparison trial between the top three or so that get through to see which is best (or possibly which combination).  But we probably won’t have that luxury with this:

 

I think maybe actual use and experience from that becomes that comparison.  

If one or some end up giving much longer protection with equivalent safety features for example that could take years to figure out. 

It may also end up being one that isn’t yet in phase 3 that turns out best, so maybe people use the first available to them initially, but then follow up a year or two later  with a different one. 

 

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1 hour ago, Pen said:

 

 

I think maybe actual use and experience from that becomes that comparison.  

If one or some end up giving much longer protection with equivalent safety features for example that could take years to figure out. 

It may also end up being one that isn’t yet in phase 3 that turns out best, so maybe people use the first available to them initially, but then follow up a year or two later  with a different one. 

 

My impression is that multiple vaccines will be in use for a while because even the very-scaled-up mega manufacture for most companies means only 100 million doses per year. I think it'll take a few years to see which is most effective, too, since that'll be looking for smaller, longer-term, effects. 

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The FDA is discussing the vaccines generally (not individually) right now and you may listen to the meeting if you’d like. Search for “fda October 22”.

AstraZeneca and Johnson & Johnson are expected to resume within a week or so. 

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14 hours ago, Pen said:

 

Dr Been reviewed some very small but interesting studies on mouthwash / gargles and nasal rinses related to CV19.

 

Oh interesting - any good results? One thing my dentist office is having everyone do is gargle with mouthwash before opening your mouth for the dentist/hygienist. I wasn't sure if they were just trying to be as safe as possible and throwing everything they can think of at COVID  

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14 hours ago, Pen said:

 

Dr Been reviewed some very small but interesting studies on mouthwash / gargles and nasal rinses related to CV19.

 

.

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1 hour ago, AmandaVT said:

Oh interesting - any good results? One thing my dentist office is having everyone do is gargle with mouthwash before opening your mouth for the dentist/hygienist. I wasn't sure if they were just trying to be as safe as possible and throwing everything they can think of at COVID  

Ive wondered at how this really helps...I know I try to breathe out of my nose, not my mouth, when the dentist is working on me. 

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New structure for restrictions in Scotland. We are roughly at level 2. Glasgow and Edinburgh are roughly at level 3. Positivity overall is around 9%

BBC News - Covid restrictions: How will Scotland's five-level system work? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-54659056

 

 

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In the US, AstraZeneca and Johnson & Johnson have resumed. AZ’s delay was supposedly caused by the FDA wanting all of the Oxford patient data reformatted into a particular format. J&J paused after a participant had a stroke but that was determined to be caused by something else.

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Good news on the vaccine trial resumptions.

US had a record day in worldometer with 81,000,000 new cases.  
 

vic bounced back up to 7 yesterday.  They are trying to trace the school cluster.  There’s a bit of controversy I think because the family whose kid went to school are being shamed and there’s questions over whether they understood the health departments advice or not.  Health department claimed there were family members with perfect English but family didn’t seem to be offered a translator.  Hopefully this can be dealt with quickly.

The AFL grand final happened in Qld (usually it’s in Vic) with a crowd of 30,000.  I’m torn between happy it could happen and worried it’ll come back to bite us.

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On 10/22/2020 at 7:25 AM, Ausmumof3 said:

I’m also seeing reports that Israel’s outbreak is well on the way down again and was wondering how JennyD is going and hoping she’s ok. 

 

On 10/22/2020 at 7:39 AM, RootAnn said:

I think @JennyD & her family decided to leave Israel around the time of the last lockdown. 

Thanks for thinking of me!  I've been busy and not around the boards much these days.  Yes, we left Israel in mid-September, right before the second lockdown.  We bought our tickets before the lockdown was announced; we couldn't stay indefinitely and since it was pretty clear that the situation was deteriorating, we decided it was time to pull the cord.

The long flights back were stressful but we were able to book seats with no immediate neighbors, wore KN95s and face shields, and opened the vents all the way.  We had quick snacks when others were not eating (i.e., didn't have their masks off) but mostly didn't eat much.  DS15 had been violently airsick all the way to Israel and was extremely worried about getting sick on the way home again, esp given the circumstances, but the Israeli OTC meds worked well.   It was fine but I can't imagine traveling by air for anything less than an urgent reason right now. The whole thing was so exhausting.

We miss Israel but it's good to be home, too. Unlimited hot water and amazon delivery are beautiful things 🙂  

 

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30 minutes ago, JennyD said:

 

Thanks for thinking of me!  I've been busy and not around the boards much these days.  Yes, we left Israel in mid-September, right before the second lockdown.  We bought our tickets before the lockdown was announced; we couldn't stay indefinitely and since it was pretty clear that the situation was deteriorating, we decided it was time to pull the cord.

The long flights back were stressful but we were able to book seats with no immediate neighbors, wore KN95s and face shields, and opened the vents all the way.  We had quick snacks when others were not eating (i.e., didn't have their masks off) but mostly didn't eat much.  DS15 had been violently airsick all the way to Israel and was extremely worried about getting sick on the way home again, esp given the circumstances, but the Israeli OTC meds worked well.   It was fine but I can't imagine traveling by air for anything less than an urgent reason right now. The whole thing was so exhausting.

We miss Israel but it's good to be home, too. Unlimited hot water and amazon delivery are beautiful things 🙂  

 

I’m glad to hear you made it back safely.

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https://apnews.com/article/virus-outbreak-michael-brown-2dfc5b8a8a097470f9277db821c00ef5
 

hospitalisation for Missouri and possibly other states flawed since oct 17

“Since Tuesday, the Missouri Department of Health and Senior Service’s coronavirus dashboard has posted a message that the total number of patients hospitalized for COVID-19 has been underreported since Oct. 17. The note blamed “challenges entering data” to the portal used by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services for collecting daily hospitalizations around the country.”

 

 

 

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On 10/21/2020 at 7:58 PM, EmilyGF said:

The reason an alternative vaccine is given is so that people don't know which group they are in; often vaccines cause some level of inflammation. If the "control" group knows they are control because of lack of inflammation, it ceases to be a double-blind study and the information loses a lot of value. 

I always get an RSI (repetitive stress injury) flare up in my wrists for a day or two post-flu vaccine. Some years I get mild back ache, too. If I had a shot and had nothing happen, I would know it was just saline.

Emily

Emily, sorry to hear about your RSI after flu shots. 

 

If there isn't a true placebo, then how do we suss out SAEs, both short and long-term?  Isn't that why other pharmaceutical products that go through testing use things such as sugar pills as placebos in their trials?  If a product being tested was suspected to give the recipient dry mouth/nausea/insomnia/etc., would the "placebo" also have to be known for giving people the same side effects so people in the trial wouldn't know if they got the actual drug or the placebo?  The package inserts of vaccines show that most people, thankfully, don't report inflammation, swelling, redness, or fever for the 3-7 day reporting window after receiving most vaccines.  Why do we need the "placebo" to be some other vaccine that creates some level of inflammation even though most people wouldn't know, based on their lack of inflammation, which group they were in?  Using a true placebo for all of these vaccine trials wouldn't be unethical, either, because we don't have another protective vaccine already approved and in use for this virus. 

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16 hours ago, hopeallgoeswell said:

Emily, sorry to hear about your RSI after flu shots. 

 

If there isn't a true placebo, then how do we suss out SAEs, both short and long-term?  Isn't that why other pharmaceutical products that go through testing use things such as sugar pills as placebos in their trials?  If a product being tested was suspected to give the recipient dry mouth/nausea/insomnia/etc., would the "placebo" also have to be known for giving people the same side effects so people in the trial wouldn't know if they got the actual drug or the placebo?  The package inserts of vaccines show that most people, thankfully, don't report inflammation, swelling, redness, or fever for the 3-7 day reporting window after receiving most vaccines.  Why do we need the "placebo" to be some other vaccine that creates some level of inflammation even though most people wouldn't know, based on their lack of inflammation, which group they were in?  Using a true placebo for all of these vaccine trials wouldn't be unethical, either, because we don't have another protective vaccine already approved and in use for this virus. 

Math. 

Emily

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0 cases 0 deaths for Vic today.  Restrictions are still not being lifted for metro Melbourne which is starting to cause a fair bit of frustration.  
 

also I saw this discussion on humidity which seemed interesting. 

 

 

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Ok looks like Melbourne is lifting some restrictions finally.  Also apparently selling out of donuts because they’ve labelled it donut day (for zero cases).  
 

Xingjiang China is having another outbreak of “asymptomatic cases”.  
 

The Astra Zeneca vaccine is producing a strong immune response in people in higher risk categories.

https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN27B0L7?__twitter_impression=true

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Rock County, WI, where a Trump rally was held about two weeks ago, reported 576 new cases today.

The state's 7-day percent positive by person is 25.4% (not counting people tested more than once) and 13.1% for total tests (includes people tested more than once). Today, the state crossed 200,000 cases. It took 7.5 months to reach the first 100,000 cases, and  36 days to reach the second. In the past two months, the 7-day average of new confirmed cases has risen 405%.

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1 hour ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I’ve seen some mentions of antihistamines showing positive results in Covid and also in reducing symptoms in long Covid.  If anyone sees a study I’d be interested.

 

I think famotidine which is on MATH protocol is an antihistamine as well as an acid reducer. 

 

I guess there were in vitro studies on it as well as just observation that people taking it seemed to do better

 

he antihistamine cloperastine, which is mostly sold in Japan, blocks glucose uptake in lung cells and has shown a small effect in fighting COVID-19

 

Also some herbs like turmeric that some long haulers are trying are natural antihistamines. 

 

I’ll

let you know if I notice other studies

 

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2 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I’ve seen some mentions of antihistamines showing positive results in Covid and also in reducing symptoms in long Covid.  If anyone sees a study I’d be interested.

I hope this turns out true, it would finally be some good news about my risk.  I live on antihistamines (diphenhydramine mostly though).  

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