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DS got home 3 hours ago!  ❤️❤️

Update-  my youngest is not only short of breath, coughing, dizzy, nausaues, and with headache-  she is also confused.  I called our doctor and talked with him and she is going to be going to the ER.

Thought I'd post a pic of my dd, getting ready to spend another day in a coronavirus triage tent!  

37 minutes ago, kbutton said:

 

18 minutes ago, Pen said:

The part about the thermal plume sounds extremely important to know. 

I'll quote it to make it easier for people.

Quote

At Orchestra Hall, the U researchers were surprised to find that the major concern wasn’t the horizontal projection of aerosols by the musicians. Instead, temperature differences between warmer body heat and colder ambient air caused aerosols to rise in a plume a few meters above the performers.

“We were expecting that flow coming from the instruments was going to be dominant … but it turned out to be not the case,” Hong said. “We had to redesign our experiment along the way.”

An upcoming report will offer suggestions on how to address any risks created by the plume, including a filter above the musicians that could entrap 95% of the particles, and a reduction in temperature that could drive the particles farther upward and out of harm’s way. Hong said it will have broader implications and recommendations for the use and positioning of air filters to capture particles in other indoor locations. CDC researchers have been in contact with the U team and might use their findings in their updated guidance to the nation on COVID-19 risks.

 

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46 minutes ago, kbutton said:

 

I'll quote it to make it easier for people.

 

 

Assuming what is true to apply to breathing and speech at home, I am going to consider repositioning air filters.

with the wildfire smoke, even aside from plumes for aeorosols it was more smoky higher up...evident between basement and higher level but also could be true for in a room   Though particulate ash fell to surfaces. 

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I'm not totally up to date on this thread--has anyone posted Dan's Covid Charts?

He uses state-by-state data from the New York Times to create various time-lapse graphics. The ones on states with the most and least cases based on partisanship were interesting to me.

https://dangoodspeed.com/covid/total-cases-since-june

Edited by Acadie
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2 hours ago, Acadie said:

I'm not totally up to date on this thread--has anyone posted Dan's Covid Charts?

He uses state-by-state data from the New York Times to create various time-lapse graphics. The ones on states with the most and least cases based on partisanship were interesting to me.

https://dangoodspeed.com/covid/total-cases-since-june

I do not know how exactly he is doing things but the chart is nuts.  I live in Alabama, a red state, but a state that has and continues to have mandatory masking indoors.  We are doing much better according to most researchers than a number of surrounding states that do not have mandatory masking.   We haven't been on the list of high number of cases states for a few months now.

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Big Kahuna open FDA meeting to discuss "the development, authorization and/or licensure of vaccines" is October 22nd starting at 10 am EST.

https://www.fda.gov/advisory-committees/advisory-committee-calendar/vaccines-and-related-biological-products-advisory-committee-october-22-2020-meeting-announcement

Agenda
The meeting presentations will be heard, viewed, captioned, and recorded through an online teleconferencing platform. On October 22, 2020, the Center for Biologics Evaluation and Research’s (CBER), Vaccines and Related Biological Products Advisory Committee (VRBPAC) will meet in open session, to discuss, in general, the development, authorization and/or licensure of vaccines to prevent COVID-19. No specific application will be discussed at this meeting.

 

Want to attend virtually? You may. It's open.

https://www.fda.gov/advisory-committees/advisory-committee-calendar/vaccines-and-related-biological-products-advisory-committee-october-22-2020-meeting-announcement 

 

More articles about this:

https://sciencespeaksblog.org/2020/09/17/covid-19-new-eua-guidance-in-time-for-oct-22-fda-vaccine-meeting/

“While this meeting is not intended to discuss any particular vaccine candidates, the agency is also prepared to rapidly schedule additional meetings of this committee upon submission of any BLAs or requests for EUAs to further ensure transparence.”

 

https://www.precisionvaccinations.com/you-too-can-see-how-covid-19-vaccines-are-approved

Edited by BeachGal
clarification
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3 hours ago, TravelingChris said:

I do not know how exactly he is doing things but the chart is nuts.  I live in Alabama, a red state, but a state that has and continues to have mandatory masking indoors.  We are doing much better according to most researchers than a number of surrounding states that do not have mandatory masking.   We haven't been on the list of high number of cases states for a few months now.

 

I have no idea about accuracy, but found the states with most and fewest deaths which started the simulation with March to be interesting to watch.

It does reflect my recollection of how Washington started out high with the early NH and first responders outbreak, but then other states surged past WA...

It didn’t make it a political statement on the high and low deaths part.  Maybe would not have fit whatever political point the guy wanted to make.

Anyway as I watched my impression was not that politics was the driver. It started especially badly in or near major metropolitan/international hubs , then later spread is what it looks like to me. 

 

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Some interesting comments I read tonight:

The AstraZeneca trial in the US that has been paused is due to the FDA wanting Oxford’s patient information files formatted a certain way and that took some time. However, the US is still collecting data on patients here who were vaccinated in the trial before the pause. New enrollees who were scheduled to get vaccinated after the pause are still waiting to get vaccinated.

Theoretically, the FDA can use data from other countries when considering vaccines. In this case, the FDA could make a decision based on our data and Oxford’s as well as data from other countries conducting the AZ trials.

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Just now, BeachGal said:

Some interesting comments I read tonight:

The AstraZeneca trial in the US that has been paused is due to the FDA wanting Oxford’s patient information files formatted a certain way and that has taken some time. However, the US is still collecting data on patients here who were vaccinated in the trial before the pause. New enrollees who were scheduled to get vaccinated after the pause are still waiting to get vaccinated.

Theoretically, the FDA can use data from other countries when considering vaccines. In this case, the FDA could make a decision based on our data and Oxford’s as well as data from other countries conducting the AZ trials.

 

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I'm taking my oldest to get tested today - she ran a fever Friday night and this was the first appointment I could get. She has always had dizzy spells when standing up, but now they are bad, starting. They got worse a day or two before other symptoms. And my next two kids have mentioned having dizzy spells in the last 24 hours. No known exposure, but Dd17 has been taking two college classes (masked) and works two jobs (also masked). In your reading, have you seen dizziness as an early indicator?

I used the word dizzy because that is the word Ds14 just used, but it is more lightheadedness. Dd17 has almost passed out several times and has to hold onto the bed each time she stands up.

Edited by Meriwether
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9 minutes ago, Meriwether said:

I'm taking my oldest to get tested today - she ran a fever Friday night and this was the first appointment I could get. She has always had dizzy spells when standing up, but now they are bad, starting. They got worse a day or two before other symptoms. And my next two kids have mentioned having dizzy spells in the last 24 hours. No known exposure, but Dd17 has been taking two college classes (masked) and works two jobs (also masked). In your reading, have you seen dizziness as an early indicator?

I used the word dizzy because that is the word Ds14 just used, but it is more lightheadedness. Dd17 has almost passed out several times and has to hold onto the bed each time she stands up.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-06-29/health-problems-caused-by-covid-19/12402852
 

unfortunately yes it can be but it’s not one of the more common ones.  Hopefully it’s not Covid and is something minor.  I’m assuming iron levels, blood sugar etc are ok?

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Just now, Ausmumof3 said:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-06-29/health-problems-caused-by-covid-19/12402852
 

unfortunately yes it can be but it’s not one of the more common ones.  Hopefully it’s not Covid and is something minor.  I’m assuming iron levels, blood sugar etc are ok?

I would assume so. They are all generally very healthy. It seemed odd to me that they all experienced it if it is Covid, since Covid seems to affect people differently. I'm hoping it is another bug.

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Just now, Meriwether said:

I would assume so. They are all generally very healthy. It seemed odd to me that they all experienced it if it is Covid, since Covid seems to affect people differently. I'm hoping it is another bug.

Dizziness is also one of those weird things for me at least that if I start thinking about being dizzy I kind of get slightly dizzy so could be a bit of that going on.  Could be worth check pulse oximeter if you have access to one just to be on the safe side.  

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29 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Dizziness is also one of those weird things for me at least that if I start thinking about being dizzy I kind of get slightly dizzy so could be a bit of that going on.  Could be worth check pulse oximeter if you have access to one just to be on the safe side.  

We do have one and the kids are fine in that respect. I asked Ds14 and he said he almost passed out when standing up, but his pulse ox showed 99 ox with a normal heartrate. I guess we'll see when we get Dd's test results.

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2 hours ago, Meriwether said:

We do have one and the kids are fine in that respect. I asked Ds14 and he said he almost passed out when standing up, but his pulse ox showed 99 ox with a normal heartrate. I guess we'll see when we get Dd's test results.

I look after people later on in the process but a number of them have complained of dizziness so it may be a more common symptom than we know, at the moment.

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Re aerosols — from a small study back from

April. But as prevalence of CV19 rises, more places like churches, offices, homes, dorms, etc., may increasingly have virus present more similar to what hospitals had in April.  Or going about daily life our ordinary clothing may have more .   

 

“In general, medical staff areas had higher concentrations of SARS-CoV-2 aerosols compared with patient areas in both hospitals during the first round of sampling (17–24 February 2020) at the peak of the COVID-19 outbreak (Table 1). For sampling sites at Renmin Hospital, the air circulation in medical staff areas is isolated by design from the air circulation in the patient rooms. By contrast, in Fangcang Hospital, the non-ventilated temporary PPAR was isolated from the patient hall, in which the aerosol concentration of SARS-CoV-2 was generally low. The second round of sampling of total suspended particles in medical staff areas of Fangcang Hospital was conducted after the number of patients reduced from more than 200 to less than 100 per zone and the implementation of more rigorous and thorough sanitization measures, including more frequent spraying of chlorinated disinfectant on the floor of patient areas, additional disinfection using 3% hydrogen peroxide in the PPAR at least once a week, thoroughly spraying alcohol disinfectant on the protective apparel before taking it off and an increased operation time of indoor air purifiers. The samples from this second round showed all undetectable results (Table 1), confirming the importance of sanitization in reducing the amount of airborne SARS-CoV-2 in high-risk areas.

SARS-CoV-2 aerosols were mainly found to include two size ranges, one in the submicrometre region (dp between 0.25 and 1.0 μm) and the other in supermicrometre region (dp > 2.5 μm). Aerosols in the submicrometre region were predominantly found in PPARs in zones B and C of Fangcang Hospital (Fig. 1a, b) with peak concentrations of 40 and 9 copies m−3 in the 0.25–0.5 μm and 0.5–1.0 μm range, respectively. By contrast, aerosols in the supermicrometre region were mainly observed in the PPAR of zone C of Fangcang Hospital (Fig. 1b) with concentrations of 7 copies m−3. The medical staff’s office (Fig. 1c) had more virus-laden aerosols in the supermicrometre size range, but the size distribution is flatter compared with the range in other areas. Reports on the resuspension of microorganisms from the floor, clothing and furniture have previously been noted to contribute to the generation of microbial aerosols in the built environment14. Therefore, we hypothesize that the source of the submicrometre peak is the resuspension of virus-laden aerosols from the surface of the protective apparel worn by medical staff while they are removing the equipment. The submicrometre virus-laden aerosols may originally come from the direct deposition of respiratory droplets or airborne SARS-CoV-2 from a patient onto the protective apparel as evidenced by the deposition samples (Table 1). The higher mobility owing to their smaller aerodynamic diameter facilitates the resuspension from the surface of protective apparel after gaining the initial velocity while the equipment is being removed. On the other hand, floor-deposited SARS-CoV-2 is possibly the source of supermicrometre virus-laden aerosols and was carried across different areas by medical staff. Furthermore, a recent study has experimentally demonstrated that SARS-CoV-2 could maintain its biological stability in aerosols and on different surfaces for hours to days15. “

 

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2271-3

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37 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Am I right in thinking this is a pretty big deal because it wouldn’t normally get past ethics etc?

 

I think so.  Not unique in history, but an ethics consideration. Even if people volunteer

it seems especially tricky if it were randomized with placebo

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

I think so.  Not unique in history, but an ethics consideration. Even if people volunteer

it seems especially tricky if it were randomized with placebo

 

 

Do you know if all of the potential vaccines are being tested against an inert placebo in all phases?  In most other vaccines, there isn't a true control, just another vaccine (different type, different brand, or previous version) or the ingredients of the vaccine being tested minus the pathogen.  It would give us very solid data and a clear picture (e.g. short-term side effects and efficacy) if a true inert placebo is used and a challenge study is done.  If that is the case, more people might be willing to get it.

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1 hour ago, hopeallgoeswell said:

Do you know if all of the potential vaccines are being tested against an inert placebo in all phases?  In most other vaccines, there isn't a true control, just another vaccine (different type, different brand, or previous version) or the ingredients of the vaccine being tested minus the pathogen.  It would give us very solid data and a clear picture (e.g. short-term side effects and efficacy) if a true inert placebo is used and a challenge study is done.  If that is the case, more people might be willing to get it.

 

When I read some study protocols it looked like some were using saline/inert as control and some were using another vaccine. I can’t recall which was which, nor for sure what was for which phase. 

 

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3 hours ago, hopeallgoeswell said:

Do you know if all of the potential vaccines are being tested against an inert placebo in all phases?  In most other vaccines, there isn't a true control, just another vaccine (different type, different brand, or previous version) or the ingredients of the vaccine being tested minus the pathogen.  It would give us very solid data and a clear picture (e.g. short-term side effects and efficacy) if a true inert placebo is used and a challenge study is done.  If that is the case, more people might be willing to get it.

The reason an alternative vaccine is given is so that people don't know which group they are in; often vaccines cause some level of inflammation. If the "control" group knows they are control because of lack of inflammation, it ceases to be a double-blind study and the information loses a lot of value. 

I always get an RSI (repetitive stress injury) flare up in my wrists for a day or two post-flu vaccine. Some years I get mild back ache, too. If I had a shot and had nothing happen, I would know it was just saline.

Emily

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6 hours ago, hopeallgoeswell said:

Do you know if all of the potential vaccines are being tested against an inert placebo in all phases?  In most other vaccines, there isn't a true control, just another vaccine (different type, different brand, or previous version) or the ingredients of the vaccine being tested minus the pathogen.  It would give us very solid data and a clear picture (e.g. short-term side effects and efficacy) if a true inert placebo is used and a challenge study is done.  If that is the case, more people might be willing to get it.

I think Emily kind of already answered this but I think the issue with placebo for vaccine is typically people get a mild reaction from the vaccine that they don’t get from saline so it’s very easy for people to figure out.  I’ve seen a couple of people who participated in trials saying they are pretty sure they got the saline because of no effect.  
 

I think ideally if you had time after the safety trials you’d also want to do a comparison trial between the top three or so that get through to see which is best (or possibly which combination).  But we probably won’t have that luxury with this:

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5 cases today in Vic.  One has put a public housing building with 500 people into quarantine.  And there’s a kid who attended school contagious for two days resulting in two schools being locked down.  Both very reminiscent of the beginning of the outbreak.  Hopefully doesn’t lead to anything more.  
 

I see according to a Chinese news site that my state is planning to bring Chinese students back in.  I haven’t seen this from anything official locally.  I suspect it will be somewhat unpopular.

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9 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I think ideally if you had time after the safety trials you’d also want to do a comparison trial between the top three or so that get through to see which is best (or possibly which combination).  But we probably won’t have that luxury with this:

 

I think maybe actual use and experience from that becomes that comparison.  

If one or some end up giving much longer protection with equivalent safety features for example that could take years to figure out. 

It may also end up being one that isn’t yet in phase 3 that turns out best, so maybe people use the first available to them initially, but then follow up a year or two later  with a different one. 

 

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1 hour ago, Pen said:

 

 

I think maybe actual use and experience from that becomes that comparison.  

If one or some end up giving much longer protection with equivalent safety features for example that could take years to figure out. 

It may also end up being one that isn’t yet in phase 3 that turns out best, so maybe people use the first available to them initially, but then follow up a year or two later  with a different one. 

 

My impression is that multiple vaccines will be in use for a while because even the very-scaled-up mega manufacture for most companies means only 100 million doses per year. I think it'll take a few years to see which is most effective, too, since that'll be looking for smaller, longer-term, effects. 

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The FDA is discussing the vaccines generally (not individually) right now and you may listen to the meeting if you’d like. Search for “fda October 22”.

AstraZeneca and Johnson & Johnson are expected to resume within a week or so. 

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14 hours ago, Pen said:

 

Dr Been reviewed some very small but interesting studies on mouthwash / gargles and nasal rinses related to CV19.

 

Oh interesting - any good results? One thing my dentist office is having everyone do is gargle with mouthwash before opening your mouth for the dentist/hygienist. I wasn't sure if they were just trying to be as safe as possible and throwing everything they can think of at COVID  

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1 hour ago, AmandaVT said:

Oh interesting - any good results? One thing my dentist office is having everyone do is gargle with mouthwash before opening your mouth for the dentist/hygienist. I wasn't sure if they were just trying to be as safe as possible and throwing everything they can think of at COVID  

Ive wondered at how this really helps...I know I try to breathe out of my nose, not my mouth, when the dentist is working on me. 

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New structure for restrictions in Scotland. We are roughly at level 2. Glasgow and Edinburgh are roughly at level 3. Positivity overall is around 9%

BBC News - Covid restrictions: How will Scotland's five-level system work? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-54659056

 

 

Edited by Laura Corin
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In the US, AstraZeneca and Johnson & Johnson have resumed. AZ’s delay was supposedly caused by the FDA wanting all of the Oxford patient data reformatted into a particular format. J&J paused after a participant had a stroke but that was determined to be caused by something else.

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Good news on the vaccine trial resumptions.

US had a record day in worldometer with 81,000,000 new cases.  
 

vic bounced back up to 7 yesterday.  They are trying to trace the school cluster.  There’s a bit of controversy I think because the family whose kid went to school are being shamed and there’s questions over whether they understood the health departments advice or not.  Health department claimed there were family members with perfect English but family didn’t seem to be offered a translator.  Hopefully this can be dealt with quickly.

The AFL grand final happened in Qld (usually it’s in Vic) with a crowd of 30,000.  I’m torn between happy it could happen and worried it’ll come back to bite us.

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