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gardenmom5

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9 hours ago, Wilrunner3 said:

What is the range in Germany?

Thank you. At 65, then, I have good levels. I'll need to confirm the measurement levels are the same.

Thank you. Good to know the upper limits. I wonder if continuing to take Vit. D will continue to raise my numbers. I'm going to guess it will keep them about the same since I don't go outside as much in the winter.

Europe normally uses different scale/units

you need to know whether you got a test with results in ng/mL or nmols/L (or something else).

If you use an ng/mL number range with a nmol/L result you will probably be low when you think you are normal

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Abc Aus 

WORLD NEWS: Germany extends coronavirus lockdown

Germany is to extend its partial coronavirus lockdown to January 10, following a meeting between Chancellor Angela Merkel and the head of the country's different states. 

The restrictions had been set to expire just before Christmas. 

Germany has been seeing its worst daily figures for coronavirus related deaths, registering 487 in the last day. 

Edited by Ausmumof3
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So, odd situation with the worker in NSW Australia who contracted Covid; looks like she cleaned the room of some US airline crew who stayed there for a short time between flights. The crew weren't tested for Covid, just had to isolate, but now they're re-thinking that policy. 

So with that resolved it seems there is no Covid circulating anywhere in the community in Australia . . . at the moment. One of the outcomes of this is that we will probably not get the vaccine until quite a bit after other countries, because there will not be any emergency reason for it.

https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/no-new-covid-19-cases-as-fresh-infection-linked-to-overseas-strain-20201204-p56kmn.html

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5 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

This kind of thing is so horrible and crazy it is difficult to believe, and yet I have heard so many stories like these.

What kind of people are we in this country if this is how we behave? I honestly am so disillusioned with people, more so than I have ever been before in my 56 years. I really just want to stay home and pretend there aren’t so many crazy, mean people around, who have totally lost the ability to use simple logic.

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1 hour ago, TCB said:

This kind of thing is so horrible and crazy it is difficult to believe, and yet I have heard so many stories like these.

What kind of people are we in this country if this is how we behave? I honestly am so disillusioned with people, more so than I have ever been before in my 56 years. I really just want to stay home and pretend there aren’t so many crazy, mean people around, who have totally lost the ability to use simple logic.

This is not unique to our country, I think. I've thought a lot about this--the seeming inability to use logic. But logic doesn't do much good without trust.

I closely followed the ebola outbreak in the Democratic Republic of Congo. The HCWs, scientists, and others who were desperately trying to eradicate that virus were met with resistance and aggression at every turn. Human beings are human beings where ever they happen to be located geographically. I'm not at all surprised by the "resistance" in our own country. Here is one study on DRC's issues w/ resistance. Clearly, there are vastly different cultural beliefs systems in play, but their conclusions do show some parallels with what might be going on in our society here. I wish that the CDC and NIH could do something similar with focus groups here. Maybe they are, but I haven't heard about it.

Edited by popmom
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17 minutes ago, popmom said:

This is not unique to our country, I think. I've thought a lot about this--the seeming inability to use logic. But logic doesn't do much good without trust.

I closely followed the ebola outbreak in the Democratic Republic of Congo. The HCWs, scientists, and others who were desperately trying to eradicate that virus were met with resistance and aggression at every turn. Human beings are human beings where ever they happen to be located geographically. I'm not at all surprised by the "resistance" in our own country. Here is one study on DRC's issues w/ resistance. Clearly, there are vastly different cultural beliefs systems in play, but their conclusions do show some parallels with what might be going on in our society here. I wish that the CDC and NIH could do something similar with focus groups here. Maybe they are, but I haven't heard about it.

I think there is more than just cultural differences between the US and the DRC, but also educational differences and the overall level of development in the countries. I think the more interesting question is what makes us so different from our peer countries.

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1 minute ago, Frances said:

I think there is more than just cultural differences between the US and the DRC, but also educational differences and the overall level of development in the countries. I think the more interesting question is what makes us so different from our peer countries.

I think it may be difficult to define a "peer country" to the U.S. 

I found it encouraging the process they used to try to reach those who were resistant.

 

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3 minutes ago, Frances said:

Maybe so, but I highly doubt the DRC would make the top fifty or even one hundred options.

So we should dismiss their experience out of hand because of that? I think the big parallel is trust. And respect for a human being's personal beliefs. That was my take away from the study, and all the other things I read over that period of time.

Edited by popmom
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1 minute ago, popmom said:

So we should dismiss their experience out of hand because of that? I think the big parallel is trust. And respect for a human being's personal beliefs. That was my take away from the study, and all the other things I read over that period of time.

No, I don’t think it should be dismissed. I just think more can be gained from comparing the US to peer countries. Plus, I don’t think it’s hard to understand why we are seeing what we are in this country. It’s not some big mystery. Science and scientists have been under attack, primarily by one side, in this country for a long time. The pandemic was politicized and propaganda, disinformation, and misinformation were purposely used to instill anger and fear of loss of freedoms to maintain division and political power.

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10 minutes ago, Frances said:

I think there is more than just cultural differences between the US and the DRC, but also educational differences and the overall level of development in the countries. I think the more interesting question is what makes us so different from our peer countries.

Do we dismiss or judge those who don't have what we have arbitrarily determined to be an acceptable level of education as less than? Are they less human? Are their feelings less valid? This is where by beef with elitists comes in. 

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Just now, Frances said:

No, I don’t think it should be dismissed. I just think more can be gained from comparing the US to peer countries. Plus, I don’t think it’s hard to understand why we are seeing what we are in this country. It’s not some big mystery. Science and scientists have been under attack, primarily by one side, in this country for a long time. The pandemic was politicized and propaganda, disinformation, and misinformation were purposely used to instill anger and fear of loss of freedoms to maintain division and political power.

Sorry. I'm not buying that. That's a convenient way to dismiss and devalue entire people groups. I can't do that. 

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Just now, popmom said:

Do we dismiss or judge those who don't have what we have arbitrarily determined to be an acceptable level of education as less than? Are they less human? Are their feelings less valid? This is where by beef with elitists comes in. 

Of course not and please don’t try to twist my words. However, there are actual measures of education and development that are used to compare countries.

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1 minute ago, Frances said:

Of course not and please don’t try to twist my words. However, there are actual measures of education and development that are used to compare countries.

I wasn't twisting your words. I'm sorry if it came across that way. I was trying to probe a little deeper. That's all. Man do I know about people on this board twisting words. I surely don't want to be party to that.

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1 minute ago, popmom said:

Sorry. I'm not buying that. That's a convenient way to dismiss and devalue entire people groups. I can't do that. 

There’s no need to agree, but certainly the US is somewhat unique among peer countries in it’s widespread dismissal of science and scientists and it’s strong focus on individual freedoms rather than what is best for society. And politicians were exploiting this long before the pandemic. So I don’t find it all surprising that it was magnified during a global health crisis and left us in a weakened position relative to our peers.

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1 minute ago, Frances said:

There’s no need to agree, but certainly the US is somewhat unique among peer countries in it’s widespread dismissal of science and scientists and it’s strong focus on individual freedoms rather than what is best for society. And politicians were exploiting this long before the pandemic. So I don’t find it all surprising that it was magnified during a global health crisis and left us in a weakened position relative to our peers.

First, we have no peer. 

Second, our country exists because of a select group of people who valued individual freedom over personal safety. This is primarily why our country has no true peer. IMO

And yes we can disagree. 

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Just now, popmom said:

First, we have no peer. 

Second, our country exists because of a select group of people who valued individual freedom over personal safety. This is primarily why our country has no true peer. IMO

And yes we can disagree. 

Yes, we can agree to disagree on whether or not we have true peers or even any peers.

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42 minutes ago, popmom said:

What many see as exploiting is what many also see as representing.

I can see that side of it. Personally, I prefer my representation to be of the uniting, factual, non-propaganda and disinformation based variety, but to each his or her own own.

Edited by Frances
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20 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:


that’s similar to what people like Dr Been have reported for practitioners trying to help in early home stages 

 

 

In many cases the primary conflict doesn’t seem to be “science” versus public etc, but rather new “science” versus established “science” such as for Michael Mina who was in that article and trying to get rapid inexpensive home tests approved where obstruction to that is by and large the “status quo” “scientific” establishment. 

Or “research science” versus “field experience” in clinical medicine such as researchers who say x doesn’t work (eg HCQ+zinc+azithromycin  or Ivermectin+doxycycline (or even vitamin D ) etc etc) versus practicing doctors who say they see patients improve when given x at right time and right dosage.  
 

And in many cases I experience a division and divisiveness  (that we have seen sometimes right in this thread) sometimes vitriol between public who tends to side with research scientists and public who tends to side with field experience doctors. 
 

Or vitriol between portion of “public” who side with someone like Michael Mina trying to get a new way of testing to be available to the public  - versus  - portion of “public” who side with the status quo approach of people like Fauci et al

 

I think this adds to public distrust, and worse -  perhaps not just distrust but frustration, anger...  and anger then probably erupts in places like WTM , or erupts as threats against people like doctors or the people in the article...  

 

I expect that there may well be fewer people wanting to go into medicine because of the current “attack” climate ...  it is not just Dr Li in CCP China who gets attacked for trying to reveal something he believes is true and important. 
It happens in American medicine. It happens in discussions like this very one. 

 

I also am increasingly hearing people who are concerned about other things over CV19- not denying CV19, but that it needs to be put in perspective of many simultaneous important things - emotional health, economic sustainability, civil freedom, ....   A few weeks shut down to level curve was well accepted, however going on and on and on is increasingly not well tolerated   -  in my experience increasingly across political spectrum and most certainly across an educational spectrum

Edited by Pen
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NPR also has a story about the number of county public heath workers who are leaving — in Kansas alone, 27 have retired, resigned, or been fired since the pandemic started. I love how the county commissioner (who chose to be photographed in a MAGA hat) claims the county health officer brought the threatening e-mails and personal attacks on herself by criticizing Trump's response to the pandemic. 😕 

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17 hours ago, popmom said:

Sorry. I'm not buying that. That's a convenient way to dismiss and devalue entire people groups. I can't do that. 

I think it does exactly the opposite, actually. Bad leaders throughout time and place have used disinformation and propaganda as political tools. Their constituents are the victims. Recognizing that emphasizes the inherent value and dignity of all people and hopefully reminds us to choose leaders who show respect and empathy for others rather than exploiting them for their own personal gains.

Edited by Frances
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On 11/29/2020 at 8:49 AM, Ausmumof3 said:

Not sure about source reliability but a pregnant woman in Singapore has given birth to a baby with antibodies to COVID19 after contracting it during pregnancy.

https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/infected-after-holiday-to-europe-pregnant-mum-gives-birth-to-baby-with-covid-19-antibodies

Is that how immunity normally gets passed on?  I know it can be shared through breastmilk and that with certain sheep sicknesses vaccinating in the weeks before birth gives the lambs some immunity so I’m guessing it’s the same for people?

 

I don't know about covid, but for some other diseases like HIV and Hepatitis B, a baby born to a positive mother will have the antibodies for months, even if they don't have the virus. 

I don't think that in that case, the antibodies pass on immunity.  If that was true then babies wouldn't be able to get HIV from breastfeeding from their birth mother, and we know that can happen.

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17 hours ago, popmom said:

So we should dismiss their experience out of hand because of that? I think the big parallel is trust. And respect for a human being's personal beliefs. That was my take away from the study, and all the other things I read over that period of time.

This seems to also go along with what I've heard about countering conspiracy theories. 

17 hours ago, popmom said:

Do we dismiss or judge those who don't have what we have arbitrarily determined to be an acceptable level of education as less than? Are they less human? Are their feelings less valid? This is where by beef with elitists comes in. 

It's where a lot of people's beef with elitists comes in, and then people end up running back to conspiracy theories. I think there is a clash sometimes, culturally, when people think one group has to be all or nothing. As if you can't believe in good pandemic science and creationism at the same time (I am using myself as an example since I am a creationist, but I buy into public health precautions, we vaccinate, etc.). Without getting into the line between science and policy (let's assume all in this discussion would like to have perfect world options for eradication), I think there is room for both popmom's observation and Frances' observations.

There are times I listen to one side of a science/policy debate, and it really resonates, and there are times the other does (and often, once I hear more nuance or think through additional factors, I am swayed firmly in one direction). In this instance, I am firmly on the side of sound pandemic science, but I feel like part of why I can be this way is that I can hop on here and hear about it. Outside of a couple of FB pages, people in my world have lost their minds, and previously reasonable people are doing stupid, stupid stuff and saying worse than what they are doing.

Am I completely frustrated by the deniers? Yes! So much so that I stopped trying to build a bridge. But I used to be a bridge builder, and we need more of them. It sounds like popmom has that ability right now. Yay!

At the same time, I feel like, like Frances, that there are definitely predictable outcomes that brought us here. Some of my bridge building in the last four years was with people that I thought would stand up to what I saw as an ugly trend four years ago, and that didn't happen (I have a common underlying belief system with them and thought they'd go the way I did). When the pandemic broke and people lost their minds the rest of the way, all bridge building for me has been out the window. 

What is happening to me now--being shunned and sidelined by people I thought I had common ground with--is the kind of experience that can really leave people jaded and open to conspiracies when they think they are being talked down, patronized, and pigeon-holed. I just happen to apparently have just a wee bit more perspective on some aspect of this that sways me to the side of sound pandemic science. 

That perspective could be personal and subjective, or it could be objective and rational. A lot of times, it's just one little thing that pushes people over the edge. I was pushed over the edge of bridge building to no-nonsense information sharing, but that push started four years ago, and the last step was a doozy.

I think the last four years have seen tottering, and those who didn't see that there was a shift (or didn't want to believe it), are those that fell off the reason cliff, TBH.

15 hours ago, Frances said:

I can see that side of it. Personally, I prefer my representation to be of the uniting, factual, non-propaganda and disinformation based variety, but to each his or her own own.

Me too, and I thought those around me with similar beliefs did too. Boy was I wrong! Or maybe I was correct, but something pushed them over...something like popmom is trying to get at.

21 minutes ago, Frances said:

I think it does exactly the opposite, actually. Bad leaders throughout time and place have used disinformation and propaganda as political tools. Their constituents are the victims. Recognizing that emphasizes the inherent value and dignity of all people and hopefully reminds us to choose leaders who show respect and empathy for others rather than exploiting them for their own personal gains.

I agree with this; paradoxically, I think the leaders chosen that brought us here were chosen because people felt that those leaders did have respect and empathy for them. I think they were duped and foolish and completely oblivious to the exploitation, but I think they were sincere. They gave (and still give) the benefit of the doubt long after it seems absurd because they want the same for themselves. 

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I would say in response to @popmom up thread that Americans certainly don’t have a copyright on conspiracy theories around the pandemic.  There is plenty of it floating around down here as well.  We’ve just been lucky that we haven’t had to restrict as hard or as long which keeps the craziness at bay sometimes.  And I do think a lot of it has been due to luck, as well as our state premiers doing an excellent job on public health.  But luck has definitely been a factor.

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2 hours ago, kbutton said:

Me too, and I thought those around me with similar beliefs did too. Boy was I wrong! Or maybe I was correct, but something pushed them over...something like popmom is trying to get at.

Over the last few months, I've wondered a lot about the people I knew who went off the reason cliff. I feel like I made such a huge misjudgment about their character and reasoning skills.  I really, really believed that our beliefs were in-line. We may have different ideas on how to solve or prioritize problems, but surely we could all agree on what the problem was. Surely we could all agree that a pandemic was a big problem, right? And that good leadership would be needed to get us out of this mess? 

To my astonishment, no, they did not even agree that a pandemic is problematic, and furthermore, they did not want leadership. At all. Someone I knew told me that she didn't view "unifying the people" as any part of the job function of the president, and was relieved? glad? excited? that the current president is not really trying to do that.   

I don't know how to build a bridge to that. I don't even know how to start, so I stopped trying. 

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3 minutes ago, kbutton said:

Yep.

I am glad that there are people who can see their viewpoint though, like popmom. Maybe someone still can.

I think shared values can be a place to start. It’s what I try to use with a family member to keep conversation going and civil. I also just ignore lots of the more extreme stuff and don’t even try to argue with it.

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4 hours ago, kbutton said:

sound pandemic science. 
 

 

a problem IMO

is that “sound pandemic science” is not necessarily a single monolithic entity

what each person sees as right is what they believe to be “sound” because why would anyone believe something they think “unsound” . 
 

for example, in my own family my parents (divorced so there’s that ) both of whom are physicians have different but also both supportable views ...   a close friend of mine who is a physician has a different view than another close friend who is a physician... etc   
 

 

 

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Herbal approach - nigella sativa - honey -I realize most of WTM is apparently anti herbal approaches and anti early treatment . And anti anything that is from a non “peer” country.

I am putting this here merely in case it might afford someone some symptom relief. “Use what you can and leave the rest.” 
 

@popmom you might be interested perhaps 

 

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.10.30.20217364v4

Edited by Pen
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8 hours ago, Pen said:

Herbal approach - nigella sativa - honey -I realize most of WTM is apparently anti herbal approaches and anti early treatment . And anti anything that is from a non “peer” country.

I am putting this here merely in case it might afford someone some symptom relief. “Use what you can and leave the rest.” 
 

@popmom you might be interested perhaps 

 

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.10.30.20217364v4

The Indian allergist who treated my daughter's life threatening peanut allergy with oral immunotherapy suggested she take nigella seeds for the immuno-boost. She didn't get into them but I like them!

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11 hours ago, Pen said:

Herbal approach - nigella sativa - honey -I realize most of WTM is apparently anti herbal approaches and anti early treatment . And anti anything that is from a non “peer” country.

I am putting this here merely in case it might afford someone some symptom relief. “Use what you can and leave the rest.” 
 

@popmom you might be interested perhaps 

 

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.10.30.20217364v4

Please don’t take my words out of context. Thank you.

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1 hour ago, Frances said:

Please don’t take my words out of context. Thank you.


I am not responding to your words at all Afaik

many pages up thread I asked about sharing herbal remedies and had what to me personally was a substantial negative reaction (and I don’t recall now from whom - but I don’t think from you, but wanting only FDA, CDC type mainstream info backed by mainstream RCT here) - such that a PM group thread got started for people interested in herbs so as to avoid disturbing people on this thread that are anti herbs etc

 

this particular herb, like Vitamin D, seemed important enough to mention it here on main thread in case it could help someone and not just on herbal PM

please, Frances, “Take what you can use,  and leave the rest.”  No criticism of you has been intended.  
 

 

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13 hours ago, Pen said:

Herbal approach - nigella sativa - honey -I realize most of WTM is apparently anti herbal approaches and anti early treatment . And anti anything that is from a non “peer” country.

I am putting this here merely in case it might afford someone some symptom relief. “Use what you can and leave the rest.” 
 

@popmom you might be interested perhaps 

 

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.10.30.20217364v4

That's an interesting little RCT, I'd love to see that replicated on a larger scale, and even tested as a prophylactic regimen rather than just a treatment. I would put Nigella in the same category as turmeric or green tea or vitamins — they have health benefits independent of any effect on Covid, so why not include some in your diet? 

For anyone interested in the dosages they used, it's 1 g of honey and 0.08 g of Nigella seeds per kg of body weight per day. For a 150 lb person that works out to roughly 3 tablespoons of honey and 1.5 teaspoons of Nigella seeds.

I wonder if honey was included in the study due to its own medicinal properties, or if they just included it because the traditional way of taking Nigella (as a medicine) is mixed with water and honey? I think the honey is mostly used to disguise the oniony/cuminy taste of the seeds mixed with water, which would be irrelevant to the study since they used capsules. They didn't specify if the honey they used is especially potent or active (like Manuka) or if it's even raw — if it's just plain old pasteurized honey, it probably isn't adding anything significant.

Nigella seeds are cheap and tasty (although maybe an acquired taste). You can get a 1 lb bag on Amazon for under $15, which would cover about 3 months at the recommended dosage for a 150 lb person. And maybe as a prophylactic the dose would be a lot smaller? I use them a lot anyway in curries, dals, soups, chili, rice, hummus, bread, roasted veg, and even salads, so consuming 1.5 tsp per day in food would be really easy. 

Edited by Corraleno
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43 minutes ago, Pen said:


I am not responding to your words at all Afaik

many pages up thread I asked about sharing herbal remedies and had what to me personally was a substantial negative reaction (and I don’t recall now from whom - but I don’t think from you, but wanting only FDA, CDC type mainstream info backed by mainstream RCT here) - such that a PM group thread got started for people interested in herbs so as to avoid disturbing people on this thread that are anti herbs etc

 

this particular herb, like Vitamin D, seemed important enough to mention it here on main thread in case it could help someone and not just on herbal PM

please, Frances, “Take what you can use,  and leave the rest.”  No criticism of you has been intended.  
 

 

 

There has been disagreement on the value of "protocols" developed by individual doctors who give whole cocktails of drugs and supplements to their patients and then claim to have "proof" of efficacy because their patients get better, when there is no actual control group and no way to tell which of the many components of the "protocol" has any real effect.

That is an entirely different issue from an actual RCT of a substance that just happens to be a food, like Nigella seeds. The issue is scientific rigor, not whether the substance being tested is "herbal" or a drug.

Personally I would be extremely interested in any RCTs showing efficacy for herbs, foods, or vitamins — even moreso than drugs, because foods and vitamins are comparatively inexpensive, easy to add to a normal diet, and generally have no side effects.

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Saw this on FB. I wasn't able to find it on the CDC website so I'm not certain it's accurate, but the ones I and others have checked appear to be accurate.

It's an interesting metric for comparing the widely variable Covid experiences of residents in different states. 

1 in 346 people in NYC have died of Covid, compared to 1 in 5,882 in Alaska--and everything in between.

 

130251863_10159053911563035_8644936477761942119_n.jpg?_nc_cat=103&ccb=2&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=vjAhAE_86ccAX_LgyQG&_nc_ht=scontent-iad3-1.xx&oh=9c5e157f5acd34a5952df8ecddc95905&oe=5FF3CCA1

 

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