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wuhan - coronavirus

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6 minutes ago, melmichigan said:

When you test the two Vog gets stuck on particulate so it's left with the N95 rating.  The Cambridge Pro is treated with silver and reaches the N99 including virus and bacteria.  At that point it's getting into such fine delineations that it's all dependent on fit in my mind.  You have to go with what fits you the best and is the most comfortable so that you will wear it correctly.  I like all the adjustments on the Cambridge Pro because I have a small face for an adult.  I wear the alternative band instead of the ear loops, and have to use the adjustment straps on the cheeks to get the sides to tighten correctly.

 

The Cambridge interests me for its filtration of VOCs in addition to virus.  Did it have any odor or feeling that the mask itself outgassed any plastics or so forth? 

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21 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

The Cambridge interests me for its filtration of VOCs in addition to virus.  Did it have any odor or feeling that the mask itself outgassed any plastics or so forth? 

I am extremely sensitive to smells, which was another reason I chose the Cambridge Pro (treated with silver vs the Basic) I haven't had any issue with smells.  I normally open a new mask and leave it for a day before I wear it, but I wore one right out of the packaging to take my DS to the ER in May and didn't have any problems. (I also have a respiratory allergy to latex so I wear them to prevent that in a medical setting.)  It smelled a little like the packaging when I first put it on, but they're mailed in a resealable lined envelope right now instead of a tin because of the preorder.  You also can't order any of the cool patterns. 😞  

I do know there is a problem with a scam site selling knock offs, so do be careful you get the spelling correct and use the proper site if you order directly from them.  They are only preorder with shipping in August that I'm aware of right now.

Edited by melmichigan
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Nick Cordero died today. Four months ago he was a fit, healthy 41 year old with an 8 month old baby. He was hospitalized at the end of March, spent 13 weeks in the ICU, had his leg amputated, and finally passed away today. His little boy turned 1 in June. 

People who think they "just want to get it and get it over with" — you have no idea whether you'll have a sniffle and be "done" in a few days or die a slow painful death over the course of several months, separated from your loved ones. That's a hell of a gamble. 😥 

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6 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

Nick Cordero died today. Four months ago he was a fit, healthy 41 year old with an 8 month old baby. He was hospitalized at the end of March, spent 13 weeks in the ICU, had his leg amputated, and finally passed away today. His little boy turned 1 in June. 

People who think they "just want to get it and get it over with" — you have no idea whether you'll have a sniffle and be "done" in a few days or die a slow painful death over the course of several months, separated from your loved ones. That's a hell of a gamble. 😥 

Oh no. I saw just a few days ago that his wife said he was doing better. So sad.😞

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A second death in Vic today of a 60 year old man.  5 in ICU.  Starting to hit home that it’s really not over.

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3 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

A second death in Vic today of a 60 year old man.  5 in ICU.  Starting to hit home that it’s really not over.

All borders closed to Victorians police, army and drones will patrol the Vic NSW border. More suburbs of Melbourne locked down

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7 hours ago, Arctic Mama said:

NM, I’m about this close to pulling a Stella.  

I have no idea what that means.  Google gave me a bunch of stuff about how to pull a beer without foam. 

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9 minutes ago, Where's Toto? said:

I have no idea what that means.  Google gave me a bunch of stuff about how to pull a beer without foam. 

There is a poster here called Stella who opted out a while ago.  I missed what went down but if anyone ( @Rosie ?) is in touch with her still I hope she’s doing ok for now.  

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@Arctic Mama -- I understand that everyone makes their own risk assessments, and I've definitely toyed with just "getting it and getting it over with" myself, because I do think I'm not particularly high risk. 

However, the problem here is that it's an infectious disease, and the reason people get upset at that stance is that everyone who advocates for this removes other people's ability to decide for themselves. The huge wave of outbreaks means, for example, that our in-laws won't be able to have true freedom of motion for the next long while -- even though they are not in a hot spot, the current state of affairs makes people feel unsafe. 

If you don't like reading about people worrying about this, you don't have to, you know. You can just not open these threads. I certainly do that with some threads. But I wouldn't be surprised that you aren't able to convince people about this, because everyone does make their own risk assessment. 

When I, personally, think about "getting it and getting it over with," I'm not entirely sure how to go about it -- if I get it, I may very well spread it to someone who's vulnerable unknowingly, and that's the opposite of what I want. Most 40 year olds don't die, it's true, but MANY 60+ year olds do. So what am I supposed to do, get exposed to the virus and immediately quarantine myself for weeks, whether I have it or not? It just sounds inefficient :-P. 

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For those of us who have been wishing more attempts to collect data and research different aspects of how covid is spreading, I found this article interesting. It shows a joint effort between the University of Minnesota and MN Dept of Health (plus the Mayo Clinic to some extent) to look how covid is spreading and what interventions are most helpful.

https://www.minnpost.com/health/2020/06/what-the-minnesota-health-department-hopes-to-learn-from-covid-19-blood-tests/

 

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By the way, speaking of statistical unicorns, I looked up the top causes of death in NY, and there aren't very many other single causes of death that beat COVID this year if you're 40 years old. A lot of them are things you really can't guard against, like cancers or heart disease. The things we CAN guard against, like traffic accidents, have a whole host of laws and rules keeping them safer. 

So, while I wouldn't be THAT worried about getting COVID-19, it's also very high on the list of avoidable non-chronic things that could kill you. Of course people are freaked out. 

Edited by square_25
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It seems like NY is in the perfect spot to open one type of venue at a time and see what could be the biggest source of infection. This says they are prepping for phase 3 without indoor dining. Sounds like a good plan. 
 

https://abc7ny.com/6299489/

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7 minutes ago, DoraBora said:

Covid risk associated with various activities (source: Texas Medical Association Covid-19 Task Force):

https://www.texmed.org/uploadedFiles/Current/2016_Public_Health/Infectious_Diseases/309193 Risk Assessment Chart V2_FINAL.pdf

I wonder if those are right... they are very specific, and I would think that some of these depend heavily on whether something is inside or outside. 

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41 minutes ago, Plum said:

It seems like NY is in the perfect spot to open one type of venue at a time and see what could be the biggest source of infection. This says they are prepping for phase 3 without indoor dining. Sounds like a good plan. 
 

https://abc7ny.com/6299489/

You have NO IDEA how relieved I am they are not reopening indoor dining for now. 

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25 minutes ago, DoraBora said:

Covid risk associated with various activities (source: Texas Medical Association Covid-19 Task Force):

https://www.texmed.org/uploadedFiles/Current/2016_Public_Health/Infectious_Diseases/309193 Risk Assessment Chart V2_FINAL.pdf

Thanks for this. It is a very understandable way to get the message across and I mostly agree with their rankings. My state has this weird dial system trying to show something similar. I get it, mostly, but it is not user friendly. I like this a lot.

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24 minutes ago, DoraBora said:

Covid risk associated with various activities (source: Texas Medical Association Covid-19 Task Force):

https://www.texmed.org/uploadedFiles/Current/2016_Public_Health/Infectious_Diseases/309193 Risk Assessment Chart V2_FINAL.pdf

Thanks! I saw that on the news but forgot to look it up. I need to print it out, laminate it and give to my oldest. It's so hard for him to hang out with his girlfriend without taking excess risk. It's too hot to be outside and a/c rooms in public spaces are not ideal. 

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16 minutes ago, square_25 said:

You have NO IDEA how relieved I am they are not reopening indoor dining for now. 

I think we're reopening limited capacity indoor dining here today,  which does not make me very happy (I'm still not ready to dine outdoors at a restaurant), but at least they've decided to hold off on bars till the return of stadium crowds seems also warranted, which I hope is still some time off...

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21 minutes ago, square_25 said:

I wonder if those are right... they are very specific, and I would think that some of these depend heavily on whether something is inside or outside. 

I don't know...  I think most of the listed activities are pretty easy to classify as being indoors or outdoors, and many of us know that moving an activity outdoors probably mitigates some risk, all other factors remaining constant. 

A chart like this that's too general isn't very useful, and one that's too specific won't fit onto a single page.  😉  I think they published it in the interest of educating people who may not be particularly interested in nitty-gritty details.  There are a lot of us, even here in Texas, who want to be educated about relative risk.

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15 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

I think we're reopening limited capacity indoor dining here today,  which does not make me very happy (I'm still not ready to dine outdoors at a restaurant), but at least they've decided to hold off on bars till the return of stadium crowds seems also warranted, which I hope is still some time off...

Isn't it already open? 

Edited by square_25

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4 minutes ago, DoraBora said:

I don't know...  I think most of the listed activities are pretty easy to classify as being indoors or outdoors, and many of us know that moving an activity outdoors probably mitigates some risk, all other factors remaining constant. 

A chart like this that's too general isn't very useful, and one that's too specific won't fit onto a single page.  😉  I think they published it in the interest of educating people who may not be particularly interested in nitty-gritty details.  There are a lot of us, even here in Texas, who want to be educated about relative risk.

But is going to the beach really like going to the mall?? Is swimming in a public pool like working in an office building for a week? 

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8 minutes ago, square_25 said:

But is going to the beach really like going to the mall?? Is swimming in a public pool like working in an office building for a week? 

Well, obviously, I don't know, but I'm sometimes surprised at one thing being statistically more dangerous than another.  I didn't look too far past the chart, but they may have published the data behind it.  There are lots of activities on the chart that I'm not doing right now.  I just thought it was interesting.

beach - mall?  Probably correct.  Malls are indoors, but at least around Dallas, they are mostly DEAD, and have been so for quite some time.  The better malls are sort of crowded at Christmastime, but any time I've ventured into a mall in the last several years I've wondered how they manage to stay open.

pools - offices?  The few public pools I've passed in the last couple of weeks have been too crowded for my comfort.  A number of offices are sparsely populated at present, so maybe that's behind the ranking in those cases. 

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32 minutes ago, square_25 said:

Isn't it already open? 

Isn't what already open? Phase 3 starts today (includes limited indoor dining, gyms, museums), so new things are allowed open as of this morning, but not sure what's actually open.  For example, while gyms are among the things allowed to open, my gym has announced plans to reopen, but no firm date yet. 

I am pleased at the abundance of caution,  and won't myself be returning to the gym probably for at least a couple of months after it's open and looks like no spread being caused.

Similarly, while spaced outdoor dining has been allowed for a couple of weeks,  I haven't been partaking. 

Edited by Matryoshka
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13 hours ago, Arctic Mama said:

NM, I’m about this close to pulling a Stella.  

 

Perhaps a temporary break would do rather than having yourself banned and all content removed. 

Or just not reading and participating in the threads that are distressing you so greatly?

I know you want people to understand your POV as being equally valid to any other POV (and there are no doubt social media sites where more people would agree with you).  

However, for myself, your arguments and analogies haven’t come through well. [specifics deleted from analogy you have made] isn’t likely to put the hospital staff at risk of illness or make it hard for them to visit with their own more vulnerable family members.  It isn’t likely to add risk to grocery shoppers.  I know you deleted that, so maybe you changed your mind yourself. 

Because of the infectious nature of CV19, and since there’s no Club Med CV19 set up to go to and get infected and stay in till noninfectious, there is currently no good way for people who would just as soon get it to do that without jeopardizing other people as well as themselves.  I wish there were a way to do something like a CV19 separated island experience where people could go there and “get it over with” recover (or not), and if / when recovered return to regular society. 

Even better, I think that people who would just as soon get it sooner rather than later would be doing a great service if they would volunteer to help in clinical trials which could use deliberate exposure—usually considered unethical—[ but with people like the Alabama college kids doing Covid parties choosing it themselves—eta @EmseB posted below that this is false “news” so not this specific, but just for those who would like to go ahead and get it, or don’t care] , it would be nice if it could be serving to do things like trial vaccines at the same time. IMO

 

Edited by Pen
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19 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

Isn't what already open? Phase 3 starts today (includes limited indoor dining, gyms, museums), so new things are allowed open as of this morning, but not sure what's actually open.  For example, while gyms are among the things allowed to open, my gym has announced plans to reopen, but no firm date yet. 

I am pleased at the abundance of caution,  and won't myself be returning to the gym probably for at least a couple of months after it's open and looks like no spread being caused.

Similarly, while spaced outdoor dining has been allowed for a couple of weeks,  I haven't been partaking. 

I thought indoor dining was already open. But I may be forgetting where you are, my apologies! 

Edited by square_25

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31 minutes ago, DoraBora said:

Well, obviously, I don't know, but I'm sometimes surprised at one thing being statistically more dangerous than another.  I didn't look too far past the chart, but they may have published the data behind it.  There are lots of activities on the chart that I'm not doing right now.  I just thought it was interesting.

beach - mall?  Probably correct.  Malls are indoors, but at least around Dallas, they are mostly DEAD, and have been so for quite some time.  The better malls are sort of crowded at Christmastime, but any time I've ventured into a mall in the last several years I've wondered how they manage to stay open.

pools - offices?  The few public pools I've passed in the last couple of weeks have been too crowded for my comfort.  A number of offices are sparsely populated at present, so maybe that's behind the ranking in those cases. 

I just wonder how scientific this is. As far as we know, we've traced lots of outbreaks to indoor activities, and practically none to outdoor ones. And we've done quite a lot of natural experiments with the protests. 

I would personally rate any indoor activities are more risky than outdoor ones, given the data. And especially indoor activities in small places that are not frequently cleaned. So an office would actually be high on my list of places to avoid, especially if it's not a very large office. 

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11 minutes ago, square_25 said:

I thought indoor dining was already open. But I may be forgetting where you are, my apologies! 

I'm in MA.  And I just looked up details to link you, and... you're right!  Indoor dining was not part of phase 2, so I'd just assumed it was part of phase 3, but  apparently there was a phase 2a on June 22nd just for that. Shows how much I've been out and about.

Kinda wish they'd waited on that too, thinking to that study of credit card data, restaurants, and rise in cases. We're doing reasonably well here, I'd really like to see that continue!

 

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14 minutes ago, square_25 said:

I just wonder how scientific this is. As far as we know, we've traced lots of outbreaks to indoor activities, and practically none to outdoor ones. And we've done quite a lot of natural experiments with the protests. 

I would personally rate any indoor activities are more risky than outdoor ones, given the data. And especially indoor activities in small places that are not frequently cleaned. So an office would actually be high on my list of places to avoid, especially if it's not a very large office. 

I agree that it's imperfect. I would definitely move a few activities around on that chart. I think this is a case where it may not be super useful *for you* because you are paying attention so closely, but I think it is very helpful for the general public. I haven't seen anything like this yet, that is so accessible. Even if it needs some tweaking over time, I'm really glad to see something like this being put out there.

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Just now, TracyP said:

I agree that it's imperfect. I would definitely move a few activities around on that chart. I think this is a case where it may not be super useful *for you* because you are paying attention so closely, but I think it is very helpful for the general public. I haven't seen anything like this yet, that is so accessible. Even if it needs some tweaking over time, I'm really glad to see something like this being put out there.

Yeah, I might be nitpicking :-). I just wonder if something a little bit more specific would be good. Like, here are the factors you might care about, see which ones you check off, tabulate a score. Otherwise, it's a little less transparent than I like, and also not very broadly applicable. A crowded mall isn't much like a crowded beach. NY's teeny grocery stores are much riskier than Austin's huge ones, etc. 

But it's certainly better than nothing. 

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8 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

I'm in MA.  And I just looked up details to link you, and... you're right!  Indoor dining was not part of phase 2, so I'd just assumed it was part of phase 3, but  apparently there was a phase 2a on June 22nd just for that. Shows how much I've been out and about.

Kinda wish they'd waited on that too, thinking to that study of credit card data, restaurants, and rise in cases. We're doing reasonably well here, I'd really like to see that continue!

 

I was just in a suburb of Boston (Belmont), lol, and my in-laws were also extremely surprised that indoor dining is officially open. They also thought it was opening today. 

We had some dates driving around while the kids slept at their grandparents', and I have to say, dining might be officially open, but most places didn't seem to bother reopening indoors for this restricted phase. It's not worth it to them. We saw a lot of places set up with outdoor dining, though. 

Edited by square_25

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5 minutes ago, square_25 said:

I was just in a suburb of Boston (Belmont), lol, and my in-laws were also extremely surprised that indoor dining is officially open. They also thought it was opening today. 

We had some dates driving around while the kids slept at their grandparents', and I have to say, dining might be officially open, but most places didn't seem to bother reopening indoors for this restricted phase. It's not worth it to them. We saw a lot of places set up with outdoor dining, though. 

I think that's likely part of why thst had passed me by! Unlike some other areas, it seems like here things are often opening even later than official guidelines allow. I think especially looking at what's happening elsewhere in the country,  very few here are in any rush...

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1 hour ago, Pen said:

 

Perhaps a temporary break would do rather than having yourself banned and all content removed. 

Or just not reading and participating in the threads that are distressing you so greatly?

 

Even better, I think that people who would just as soon get it sooner rather than later would be doing a great service if they would volunteer to help in clinical trials which could use deliberate exposure—usually considered unethical choosing it themselves, it would be nice if it could be serving to do things like trial vaccines at the same time. IMO. 

 

For what it's worth.

https://www.wired.com/story/covid-parties-are-not-a-thing/

ETA, the quote got messed up, but the link is in response to the "Alabama covid parties".

Also I think putting info out there that someone deleted, especially that kind of personal stuff, is way, way not cool.

Edited by EmseB
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2 hours ago, square_25 said:

I wonder if those are right... they are very specific, and I would think that some of these depend heavily on whether something is inside or outside. 

 

2 hours ago, DoraBora said:

I don't know...  I think most of the listed activities are pretty easy to classify as being indoors or outdoors, and many of us know that moving an activity outdoors probably mitigates some risk, all other factors remaining constant. 

A chart like this that's too general isn't very useful, and one that's too specific won't fit onto a single page.  😉  I think they published it in the interest of educating people who may not be particularly interested in nitty-gritty details.  There are a lot of us, even here in Texas, who want to be educated about relative risk.

Whoever was talking about it on the news basically said YMMV depending on your personal risk factors and situations. They wanted to make clear that it's not definitive. Attending a backyard bbq may be moderate, but if you don't stay outside, don't wear your mask or social distance, then it goes up much higher. 

ETA: it sounded like these concerns were something they had brought up and fought over. 

Edited by Plum

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9 minutes ago, EmseB said:

For what it's worth.

https://www.wired.com/story/covid-parties-are-not-a-thing/

ETA, the quote got messed up, but the link is in response to the "Alabama covid parties".

Also I think putting info out there that someone deleted, especially that kind of personal stuff, is way, way not cool.

 

I’ll edit mine.

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4 hours ago, square_25 said:

By the way, speaking of statistical unicorns, I looked up the top causes of death in NY, and there aren't very many other single causes of death that beat COVID this year if you're 40 years old. A lot of them are things you really can't guard against, like cancers or heart disease. The things we CAN guard against, like traffic accidents, have a whole host of laws and rules keeping them safer. 

So, while I wouldn't be THAT worried about getting COVID-19, it's also very high on the list of avoidable non-chronic things that could kill you. Of course people are freaked out. 

Anti smoking laws, and anti pollution laws that protect the ozone layer (or try to) would be examples of laws that restrict individual behavior to protect the general public from cancer.  We made leaded gas illegal, in part to protect the public from cardiovascular disease.  Nutritional labels on packaged food, and in some places in restaurant, and the recent legislation about artificial trans fats are also aimed, at least partially, at reducing heart disease.  

 

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This is a good thread about the claim that sars2 was present in Europe as early of March 2019 based on that waste water test (tldr, it probably wasn't)

 

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1 hour ago, EmseB said:

This is a good thread about the claim that sars2 was present in Europe as early of March 2019 based on that waste water test (tldr, it probably wasn't)

 

Thank you. This didn’t pass the smell test for me, no pun intended, but it’s not my field. It’s good to hear from people who know things.

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As far as the beach being similar to the mall-It is possible to go to the beach and social distance. Dh did last week. I know there will be parties and that is not good, but if a family unit goes and stays away from others (very possible), I think that is safe. We brought our own food and ate all meals in the cottage. We did visit the coffee shop, but everyone was masked and social distanced. 

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4 hours ago, EmseB said:

For what it's worth.

https://www.wired.com/story/covid-parties-are-not-a-thing/

ETA, the quote got messed up, but the link is in response to the "Alabama covid parties".

Also I think putting info out there that someone deleted, especially that kind of personal stuff, is way, way not cool.

Good article. I've definitely seen some very uncritical reporting that's based on nothing other than "this public official said." Guess what -- public officials are people, too, and their quotes do need to be checked. 

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I've been very interested in what is going on in Australia as it is a warning for us here in NZ.  

NSW/Victoria border has been closed.  The police are manning the 55 border crossings between the 2 states.

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/nsw/nsw-victoria-border-closed-by-coronavirus-with-police-on-frontline-20200706-p559jb.html

Is it possible for certain US states to do the same? 

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13 minutes ago, lewelma said:

I've been very interested in what is going on in Australia as it is a warning for us here in NZ.  

NSW/Victoria border has been closed.  The police are manning the 55 border crossings between the 2 states.

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/nsw/nsw-victoria-border-closed-by-coronavirus-with-police-on-frontline-20200706-p559jb.html

Is it possible for certain US states to do the same? 

Maybe some of the smaller states, maybe. TX absolutely not, especially not along the Rio Grande (international border); AZ & CA is the same, I would imagine. There isn’t enough law enforcement to handle that. Logistically, I don’t even know how it would be done. 
 

ETA: And my answer doesn’t speak to the legal and financial issues which would also be enormous. 

Edited by brehon
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19 minutes ago, lewelma said:

I've been very interested in what is going on in Australia as it is a warning for us here in NZ.  

NSW/Victoria border has been closed.  The police are manning the 55 border crossings between the 2 states.

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/nsw/nsw-victoria-border-closed-by-coronavirus-with-police-on-frontline-20200706-p559jb.html

Is it possible for certain US states to do the same? 

Autonomously? I would guess not. With federal enforcement? That's an interesting but entirely theoretical question. 

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I'm seeing the little states in New England doing quite well.  How many border crossings could they have?  The cut could be vertically down the borders between VT/CT/MA and NY.  Or include NY and make the cut at the NY border for the region. 55 crossings is a lot of crossings but my understanding is that NSW is doing all the manning of the borders with their NSW police force not a federal force. 

ETA: Australia has a federal system like the USA.

Edited by lewelma
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7 minutes ago, lewelma said:

I'm seeing the little states in New England doing quite well.  How many border crossings could they have?  The cut could be vertically down the borders between VT/CT/MA and NY.  Or include NY and make the cut at the NY border for the region. 55 crossings is a lot of crossings but my understanding is that NSW is doing all the manning of the borders with their NSW police force not a federal force. 

ETA: Australia has a federal system like the USA.

But I would guess this wouldn't work out without federal agreement. 

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