Jump to content

Menu

Recommended Posts

8 minutes ago, frogger said:

 

 

Well, my asthma meds are back ordered because that is another "cure" according to some doctors (who sound like salespeople to me). I hope it doesn't take too long because I know have a lung thing (went for Covid test but no results yet).  At least it is obvious that it helps a Covid patient breath and isn't just a placebo. My friend with RA had to switch drugs for awhile. Hopefully she was able to get some more recently. Haven't talked to her in a month or so. 

 

Here was a trial that started patients early. Obviously, this drug should be taken before things take a turn for the worse and then decisions would have to be made about who gets it.

 

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2016638

 

The study you linked was an excellent randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled study — which concluded that HCQ has no effect as a post-exposure prophylaxis:

We enrolled 821 asymptomatic participants. Overall, 87.6% of the participants (719 of 821) reported a high-risk exposure to a confirmed Covid-19 contact. The incidence of new illness compatible with Covid-19 did not differ significantly between participants receiving hydroxychloroquine (49 of 414 [11.8%]) and those receiving placebo (58 of 407 [14.3%]); the absolute difference was −2.4 percentage points (95% confidence interval, −7.0 to 2.2; P=0.35). Side effects were more common with hydroxychloroquine than with placebo (40.1% vs. 16.8%), but no serious adverse reactions were reported.

After high-risk or moderate-risk exposure to Covid-19, hydroxychloroquine did not prevent illness compatible with Covid-19 or confirmed infection when used as postexposure prophylaxis within 4 days after exposure.

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 16.7k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

  • Ausmumof3

    3232

  • Pen

    2463

  • Arcadia

    1337

  • prairiewindmomma

    305

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

DS got home 3 hours ago!  ❤️❤️

Update-  my youngest is not only short of breath, coughing, dizzy, nausaues, and with headache-  she is also confused.  I called our doctor and talked with him and she is going to be going to the ER.

That's not a blanket right.  If my religion required human sacrifice, I can't practice it.  If my religion required sexual assault, I can't practice it. Freedom of religion isn't a blanket right

Posted Images

2 minutes ago, frogger said:

 

But you are talking about every scared person in America. That is a lot. Humans aren't magicians who just speak things into existence.  If you google production of HCQ you will find that "they" all over the world are ramping up production but what you are asking for (enough for anyone) is asking for something magical in a short time frame.

 

Good.  I am glad “they” all over world are ramping production up.

 

Asking for vaccines in large number is also “magical”. 

  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

Good.  I am glad “they” all over world are ramping production up.

 

Asking for vaccines in large number is also “magical”. 

 

Certainly, but I would rather a rich person who could afford to take a placebo while self isolating didn't take away meds from an RA or lupis patient who will certainly suffer more from not having their meds.

 

Edited to add there are 3 ways to ration.

1) according to need

2) first come -first served

3) according to price

#2 can also mean hoarding because you have to get stuff while you can. 

 

I assume you are looking at #2 or #3 for rationing your OTC HCQ. 

Edited by frogger
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, frogger said:

 

Certainly, but I would rather a rich person who could afford to take a placebo while self isolating didn't take away meds from an RA or lupis patient who will certainly suffer more from not having their meds.

 

I don’t want people with autoimmunity to suffer either.  

So...

Make plenty first, then have it OTC.

People can kill themselves by taking too much Tylenol too. Doesn’t mean it needs to be kept prescription only.  

It may also seem amazing and magical that production could manage to make so much, but usually there’s enough Tylenol and or aspirin for people who want it. 

 

 

  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Can someone please link any randomized, placebo-controlled clinical trial in which HCQ was shown to be effective? Because the only randomized clinical studies I have seen concluded quite clearly that HCQ showed no benefit, while the retrospective/observational/metanalyses that claim to show a positive benefit had significant differences between the HCQ and nonHCQ groups. I'm curious why those who dismissed the large VA study as invalid on the grounds that the more severe patients were in the treatment group willingly accept studies where the more severe patients are in the control group?

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

The study you linked was an excellent randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled study — which concluded that HCQ has no effect as a post-exposure prophylaxis:

We enrolled 821 asymptomatic participants. Overall, 87.6% of the participants (719 of 821) reported a high-risk exposure to a confirmed Covid-19 contact. The incidence of new illness compatible with Covid-19 did not differ significantly between participants receiving hydroxychloroquine (49 of 414 [11.8%]) and those receiving placebo (58 of 407 [14.3%]); the absolute difference was −2.4 percentage points (95% confidence interval, −7.0 to 2.2; P=0.35). Side effects were more common with hydroxychloroquine than with placebo (40.1% vs. 16.8%), but no serious adverse reactions were reported.

After high-risk or moderate-risk exposure to Covid-19, hydroxychloroquine did not prevent illness compatible with Covid-19 or confirmed infection when used as postexposure prophylaxis within 4 days after exposure.

But if its main effect as a prophylactic is because it's a zinc ionophore, wouldn't we need a study like this where it's given with zinc.  Because otherwise it's not very useful...  Almost all of the studies I've seen where it's not that useful, it's alone or with azithromycin (still not sure why that's a combo), but even though I know it has been combined with zinc in practice, I haven't seen any studies.

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Pen said:

 

I don’t want people with autoimmunity to suffer either.  

So...

Make plenty first, then have it OTC.

People can kill themselves by taking too much Tylenol too. Doesn’t mean it needs to be kept prescription only.  

It may also seem amazing and magical that production could manage to make so much, but usually there’s enough Tylenol and or aspirin for people who want it. 

 

 

Yes, but that happened over time. If Covid becomes seasonal and HCQ were a good treatment then I would expect that long term way more would be produced annually.  

What would keep YOU from producing more right now? Human capital, natural resources, every piece of equipment they use has to be made and put together and "they" have to do that too even though they have more to start with. 

 

Labs and factories etc can ramp up but once they max out whole new ones need built. Things they need to do so will be in short supply. Humans can do a lot but it will take time.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Matryoshka said:

But if its main effect as a prophylactic is because it's a zinc ionophore, wouldn't we need a study like this where it's given with zinc.  Because otherwise it's not very useful...  Almost all of the studies I've seen where it's not that useful, it's alone or with azithromycin (still not sure why that's a combo), but even though I know it has been combined with zinc in practice, I haven't seen any studies.

 

I didn't catch that. Thanks

Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

But if its main effect as a prophylactic is because it's a zinc ionophore, wouldn't we need a study like this where it's given with zinc.  Because otherwise it's not very useful...  Almost all of the studies I've seen where it's not that useful, it's alone or with azithromycin (still not sure why that's a combo), but even though I know it has been combined with zinc in practice, I haven't seen any studies.

I would love to see a study where they tried zinc with various ionophores, including ones with lower risk than HCQ, since it seems that some of the same medical issues that make people high-risk for Covid (like heart disease) also make them not good candidates for HCQ (hence the reason a lot of these observational studies end up with the higher risk patients in the nonHCQ group).

 

Edited by Corraleno
  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, frogger said:

Yes, but that happened over time. If Covid becomes seasonal and HCQ were a good treatment then I would expect that long term way more would be produced annually.  

What would keep YOU from producing more right now? 

 

Interesting question.

What are the needed raw ingredients?

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I have tried to look at at least most of the HCQ trials and haven’t seen one prove it effective. I’ve seen several people on here say multiple times that it is in fact effective but have not seen them link a study. Please put me out of my misery and link them - I just can’t search one more thing right now! Have mercy!

  • Like 2
  • Haha 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

I would love to see a study where they tried zinc with various ionophores, including ones with lower risk than HCQ, since it seems that some of the same medical issues that make people high-risk for Covid (like heart disease) also make them not good candidates for HCQ (hence the reason a lot of these observational studies end up with the higher risk patients in the nonHCQ group).

 

 

Yes.  That would be helpful. Though I am not sure all that many people want to try Quercitin and/or EGCG as prophylaxis and then go get themselves deliberately exposed for an experiment. 

Though maybe ZOE tracks that sort of thing?  If so I’d join ZOE.  @Laura Corin does ZOE just track symptoms or also supplements etc? 

 

I would like to see in Vivo studies showing that Quercitin works as a zinc ionophore in live people. I’d be much more happy with Quercitin if I had such studies even if not directly related to CV19. 

Currently I only have the one 2014 in vitro study.

I’m going with it because it is what I have as a study — and what I can readily get as an otc supplement.   And because it became the MATH / Marik protocol top suggestion for an ionophore where HCQ isn’t feasible. 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

Yes.  That would be helpful. Though I am not sure all that many people want to try Quercitin and/or EGCG as prophylaxis and then go get themselves deliberately exposed for an experiment. 

Though maybe ZOE tracks that sort of thing?  If so I’d join ZOE.  @Laura Corin does ZOE just track symptoms or also supplements etc? 

 

I would like to see in Vivo studies showing that Quercitin works as a zinc ionophore in live people. I’d be much more happy with Quercitin if I had such studies even if not directly related to CV19. 

Currently I only have the one 2014 in vitro study.

I’m going with it because it is what I have as a study — and what I can readily get as an otc supplement.   And because it became the MATH / Marik protocol top suggestion for an ionophore where HCQ isn’t feasible. 

 

 

Zoe asked me once about supplements. It probably does that with new recruits now. They haven't come out with research on that yet, so far as I remember.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites


this is from a Dutch article run through google translate.  Apparently they think they may have found a genetic fault linked to more serious illness in young people.

Researchers at Radboud university medical center in Nijmegen have discovered a defect in the genetic code of a number of corona patients, which explains why some young people become seriously ill from the coronavirus. They hope that other severely ill young corona patients can be treated better with the help of the new insights.

The researchers discovered the role of the TLR7 gene when a Maastricht UMC + doctor noted that two young brothers were seriously ill from Covid-19 and had to go on a ventilator. One of them died from the effects of the disease, the other recovered. It is exceptional that young people get sick from corona, most of them only have mild complaints.

"In such a case, you immediately wonder whether genetic factors are involved," says geneticist Alexander Hoischen of Radboud university medical center. "That two brothers get so seriously ill may be a coincidence, but it is also possible that a birth defect played a role."

Essential gene
The research team mapped part of the genes of the brothers, especially the genes that play a role in the immune system. Soon a gene on the X chromosome came into view: TLR7. That gene helps to recognize pathogens and activate the immune system. The two brothers were found to lack some letters in the genetic code.

The team concluded that the TLR7 gene is apparently essential to detect the coronavirus. Hoischen: "It seems that the virus can just go ahead because the immune system is not notified that the virus has invaded. That could be the reason for the serious course of the disease."

Men are extra sensitive to the error in the genetic code. Women with two X chromosomes also have two copies of the TLR7 gene. Since men only have one, there is no second gene that can take over the role of the defective TLR7 as it does in women.

Two more brothers
During the study, the researchers unexpectedly had to deal with two more seriously ill brothers under 35 years of age who had to go to ventilator on the ICU. They recovered from the disease. They also found something wrong with the TLR7 gene. "This time we saw no loss of letters, but a single typo," says Hoischen. "The effect is the same, because these brothers also make too little effective TLR7."

The team also investigated what exactly the gene does when it is activated. It then produces interferons, special proteins that are essential in the defense against viral infections. These are especially important with corona, says Cas van der Made, a doctor in training at the department of internal medicine. "From the literature we know that this virus has tricks to reduce the production of interferons by immune cells."

Tests showed that the immune cells of patients without properly functioning TLR7 hardly respond and that hardly any extra interferons were produced. The virus seemed to have free rein.

The discovery of the researchers at Raboudumc may help treat other critically ill corona patients. The substance interferon can be given to patients as therapy. It is currently being investigated whether this actually helps with treatment.

  • Like 8
  • Thanks 4
Link to post
Share on other sites

The thing that doesn’t quite add up for me with the HCQ being effective early on is that we know that there are many that are either asymptomatic or have very minimal symptoms, as already mentioned up thread. So without a proper trial how can we be sure that the anecdotal accounts of it being so effective in early disease aren’t just that it was given to people who weren’t going to get bad symptoms anyway? 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, TCB said:

The thing that doesn’t quite add up for me with the HCQ being effective early on is that we know that there are many that are either asymptomatic or have very minimal symptoms, as already mentioned up thread. So without a proper trial how can we be sure that the anecdotal accounts of it being so effective in early disease aren’t just that it was given to people who weren’t going to get bad symptoms anyway? 

 

I agree. It makes sense to me that it should be given early since it is supposed to actually fight the virus keeping down replication. By the time you get really serious you are also treating the symptoms from an over reactive immune system. 

The problem of course is that most people get better without a drug also. I still haven't found a double blind (especially important since people really want to confirm their bias) study with a good control group that actually includes the zinc component. 

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, square_25 said:

Exactly. You can't really deal with confirmation bias without double blind studies. Especially for an illness that doesn't, in fact, kill most people (if it did, the effect might be strong enough that you could see it despite this.) 

But I wonder why no one chooses to add the zinc component when that is what the uproar is about? 

 

I really don't know. I'm just curious.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I certainly don’t think it should be mandatory — so that anyone who feels uncomfortable with it would not take it.

If supplies are limited maybe it should first be offered to HCW, LEO, teachers etc.    especially people who would be at risk from CV19, but not particularly at risk from HCQ.  But I think if it can be an over the counter medicine in Venezuela, it can be in USA too.  I don’t think Americans are hugely more stupid than Venezuelans.   Idk.  Maybe Americans are.

anyway, I think it’s time to stop conflating limited supplies issues with doesn’t help at all issues. Like for masks. 

 

And a bunch of pages back here people seemed seemed worried that suggesting vitamin D above 1000 iu or so would result in people dying like flies from vitamin D overdose.  

Nm . I am feeling cranky.  

I’d like to see things like schools be able to open safely and I think a reliable ionophore plus zinc plus D plus Selenium plus ... could help us to do that. 

 

 

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, square_25 said:

I think if this medication had a really strong effect, we'd know by now. Trust me, no one wants to hide an effective medication, especially since it's not like it's something you can patent. 

I would love to be able to see the information that has convinced some of the posters on this page though. I saw an article early on by a Dr in NY I think, who was giving it to all his patients but haven’t seen further details, although I think his name is still mentioned. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, square_25 said:

I think if this medication had a really strong effect, we'd know by now. Trust me, no one wants to hide an effective medication, especially since it's not like it's something you can patent. 

 

Perhaps that’s exactly why many do want to hide it.  It’s old and not patented. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, square_25 said:

I don't think this situation is benefiting anyone. And given the number of people who would need to be trying to hide it (like, every hospital in the country has tried it!!), that's just a completely implausible theory. 

 

From what I know about zinc plus ionophore, by time people are sick enough to be in hospital it is too late for HCQ plus zinc to help much. 

 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, Pen said:

I certainly don’t think it should be mandatory — so that anyone who feels uncomfortable with it would not take it.

If supplies are limited maybe it should first be offered to HCW, LEO, teachers etc.    especially people who would be at risk from CV19, but not particularly at risk from HCQ.  But I think if it can be an over the counter medicine in Venezuela, it can be in USA too.  I don’t think Americans are hugely more stupid than Venezuelans.   Idk.  Maybe Americans are.

anyway, I think it’s time to stop conflating limited supplies issues with doesn’t help at all issues. Like for masks. 

 

And a bunch of pages back here people seemed seemed worried that suggesting vitamin D above 1000 iu or so would result in people dying like flies from vitamin D overdose.  

Nm . I am feeling cranky.  

I’d like to see things like schools be able to open safely and I think a reliable ionophore plus zinc plus D plus Selenium plus ... could help us to do that. 

 

 

I really do wish there were an easy answer and I would love to see a good study done that didn't leave out the zinc or give it to patients whose immune systems are already in melt down.

I would love to see it work and I do think people should have it available but I have also seen so many miracle cures flung out there with doctors with only observational evidence from a limited number of patients that it makes me cranky that I and my friend struggle to get our drugs that they promote when we KNOW it helps us and they don't really have strong evidence it helps others.

 

 

 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

Perhaps that’s exactly why many do want to hide it.  It’s old and not patented. 

But that doesn't seem likely given the attention that dexamethasone has been getting. And a day or two ago I read something about prednisone possibly being effective. They're old, cheap drugs, too.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
49 minutes ago, Pen said:

But I think if it can be an over the counter medicine in Venezuela, it can be in USA too.  I don’t think Americans are hugely more stupid than Venezuelans.   Idk.  Maybe Americans are.

We don't have to be as stupid to do more harm, simply because there are twelve times as many of us.

 

I found my pulmonologist visit less than helpful. Now taking more medicines to less effect. *sigh*

  • Sad 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

I would love to see research into other ionophores. For example, here is a study that tested hinokitiol (extracted from cypress) and pyrithione (extract from Persian shallots) in conjunction with zinc and found that both combinations were effective in inhibiting proliferation of rhinovirus, coxsackievirus, and mengovirus.  https://jvi.asm.org/content/83/1/58

This study found that quercetin and Epigallocatechin-gallate (the major catechin in tea) were effective zinc ionophores: https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/jf5014633

Ivermectin is also supposed to function as a zinc ionophore — I thought there was going to be a study on ivermectin, did that ever happen?

There was a lot of talk a few months ago about a quercetin trial that I think was sponsored by researchers in Montreal but was going to take place in China? Anyone know if that study happened and if so, are the results are available?

 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

I would love to see research into other ionophores. For example, here is a study that tested hinokitiol (extracted from cypress) and pyrithione (extract from Persian shallots) in conjunction with zinc and found that both combinations were effective in inhibiting proliferation of rhinovirus, coxsackievirus, and mengovirus.  https://jvi.asm.org/content/83/1/58

This study found that quercetin and Epigallocatechin-gallate (the major catechin in tea) were effective zinc ionophores: https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/jf5014633

Ivermectin is also supposed to function as a zinc ionophore — I thought there was going to be a study on ivermectin, did that ever happen?

There was a lot of talk a few months ago about a quercetin trial that I think was sponsored by researchers in Montreal but was going to take place in China? Anyone know if that study happened and if so, are the results are available?

 

The ivermectin study is ongoing, you can search clinicaltrials.gov

Some country, Brazil or India maybe, based on what they've seen, was  using HCQ + vitamin D but has now added ivermectin, all cheap readily available drugs/vitamins with few side effects.  Thousands in the military deploying to places where malaria is present have taken HCQ, only side effect is normally GI issues for a percentage of the population.  I saw a study that the heart issues were not related to HCQ but to Coronavirus, and also another study, not at the lower doses you really need of HCQ.

ETA: Brazil, here is their "Covid Kit."

829306857_ScreenShot2020-07-24at5_43_04PM.thumb.png.0c211fac6afc30f1a3007f5b65d8977e.png

Edited by ElizabethB
  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

I've taken malaria prophylactics (can't remember if it was hcq or not) but found it very very difficult to take.  As in I often vomited right after taking it.  (TMI - sorry.)

I've taken Ivermectin (for parasites).  That too was pretty harsh on the body.  I actually took it for longer than normally prescribed but it's usually prescribed for very short times.  The pharmacist raised her eyebrows very high when she saw how much I was prescribed. 

I take Quercetin regularly.  It isn't hard on my body at all.

ETA:  I take zinc too but I wasn't trying to link Quercetin and zinc.  I just happen to take both.

I would really want studies done before people who aren't knowledgeable about these meds prescribe them.  BTW - the anti-malarial pills were by a specialist in tropical medicine - not by a GP or even just an internal med. doc.  And the Ivermectin was by a doctor who specialized in hard to diagnose and cure conditions.  In other words, neither were just given randomly to see "if it worked".  (Obviously there is a place for experimentation but I think that it is within the confines of a controlled study.)

Edited by Jean in Newcastle
  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, square_25 said:

Yeah. I really don't think we should be making HCQ available over the counter. We'll have people with bad side effects, almost certainly. Whatever you think of the studies, practically all the studies agree that there can be side effects with incorrect dosage. 

Well, I didn't say anything about OTC. Just that I would love to see the results of a well done study that involved the actual thing being promoted not pieces and parts of it.

And I understand wanting things to work. 

Edited by frogger
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, frogger said:

But I wonder why no one chooses to add the zinc component when that is what the uproar is about? 

 

I really don't know. I'm just curious.

Well, I think most of the uproar isn't because of promising theories about HCQ acting in tandem with zinc.  I think most of the enthusiasm for the drug is because the president touted it.  

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

I've taken HCQ as a malaria prophylactic myself, and despite experiencing severe nausea, I wouldn't hesitate to take it for Covid if there were good solid randomized clinical trials showing that it is effective. But so far, no one has been able to link even one. IMO, the fact that a few other countries may be using it despite the lack of evidence does not constitute evidence in its favor.

  • Like 7
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Terabith said:

Well, I think most of the uproar isn't because of promising theories about HCQ acting in tandem with zinc.  I think most of the enthusiasm for the drug is because the president touted it.  

 

I thought so too at first but it seems pointless to keep doing studies with HCQ and no Zinc and that seems to have been replicated already and was a no go.

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, square_25 said:

Do people actually think Zinc is how it's supposed to work? Because I assume people running these studies aren't stupid. 

 

Have we not been reading the same thread?

And your definition of stupid is? Doctors and researchers do all sorts of stuff and that includes call each other stupid when the disagreeing parties probably have at least above average IQ.  LOL

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, whitehawk said:

We don't have to be as stupid to do more harm, simply because there are twelve times as many of us.

 

Lol!

 

1 hour ago, whitehawk said:

I found my pulmonologist visit less than helpful. Now taking more medicines to less effect. *sigh*

Bummer ☹️

Link to post
Share on other sites

Well I may have found one for you. It says peer reviewed but an article about it not the actual paper I think.

 

https://www.henryford.com/news/2020/07/hydro-treatment-study

 

ETA Ok it’s kind of old- July 2, also it looked like it said 18% reduction in mortality which I don’t think is as much reduction as Dexamethasone

 

ETA 2 - Just saw a comment that it may not have been well controlled, was observational and many were also given steroids

Edited by TCB
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, square_25 said:

Do people actually think Zinc is how it's supposed to work? Because I assume people running these studies aren't stupid. 

 

18 minutes ago, frogger said:

 

Have we not been reading the same thread?

And your definition of stupid is? Doctors and researchers do all sorts of stuff and that includes call each other stupid when the disagreeing parties probably have at least above average IQ.  LOL

Actually, it started because it was effective against SARS, they started looking at things that worked with other similar diseases.

Some people think it may work as a zinc ionophore, but there are other theories about its main mechanism, and it may be doing several things.  People don't always know exactly why a drug works.

Yes, high IQ people can do stupid things, LOL.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, TCB said:

Well I may have found one for you. It says peer reviewed but an article about it not the actual paper I think.

 

https://www.henryford.com/news/2020/07/hydro-treatment-study

 

ETA Ok it’s kind of old- July 2, also it looked like it said 18% reduction in mortality which I don’t think is as much reduction as Dexamethasone

 

They aren’t an either this or that.  

Dexamethasone is more useful later in disease course probably not a good idea prophylactic or early.  

HCQ + zinc the opposite.  

Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, TCB said:

Well I may have found one for you. It says peer reviewed but an article about it not the actual paper I think.

 

https://www.henryford.com/news/2020/07/hydro-treatment-study

 

ETA Ok it’s kind of old- July 2, also it looked like it said 18% reduction in mortality which I don’t think is as much reduction as Dexamethasone

 

ETA 2 - Just saw a comment that it may not have been well controlled, was observational and many were also given steroids

The “nonHCQ group” also had a significantly higher median age and were significantly sicker than the HCQ treatment group 

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

They aren’t an either this or that.  

Dexamethasone is more useful later in disease course probably not a good idea prophylactic or early.  

HCQ + zinc the opposite.  

I realize that, it was just an observation about the reduction in mortality. We use dexamethasone for those needing oxygen therapy as well as those needing ventilation.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Bagels McGruffikin said:

I posted in the other thread, but I can’t find any of my links right now - they’re too far back in my history. When I next come across them I’ll repost, but there were six or seven good studies I’ve seen compiled in the last two months, mostly from outside the US.  I need to start bookmarking these, sigh.

I haven't seen those studies either, but my uncle (who spent the majority of his career as a doctor in Africa) believes this is a helpful mix.  Don't know what it's based on, and I'm curious what studies are out there.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

We have a friend who is a nurse in a hospital that sees a lot of Covid-19 patients. He says that they can see a difference with HCQ early and plasma late, and is mad that the news media is not reporting about either. They're not doing studies, they're just using what they see works with all patients that come in. (He's mad at all news, it's not political! He also says he doesn't know why plasma would be political because no one has said anything about it.)

Edited by ElizabethB
  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

I think one part of the reason we don’t have good HCQ studies is because after the lancet study that has been called into question claiming it was a safety risk lots and lots of studies were stopped or put on hold.  Some have recommenced but I suspect that delay is why we haven’t had much recent info.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Israeli data showing breakdown of where of infections were acquired in the past week 

https://www.haaretz.com/amp/israel-news/.premium-data-shows-where-israelis-contract-the-coronavirus-1.9005504?__twitter_impression=true
 

education institutions, events and places of  Worship came in top.  Beaches and Pools, salons and social gatherings at the bottom.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, ElizabethB said:

We have a friend who is a nurse in a hospital that sees a lot of Covid-19 patients. He says that they can see a difference with HCQ early and plasma late, and is mad that the news media is not reporting about either. They're not doing studies, they're just using what they see works with all patients that come in. (He's mad at all news, it's not political! He also says he doesn't know why plasma would be political because no one has said anything about it.)

But how can they "see a difference" if there's no control group — a "difference" ... compared to what? If everyone gets the drug, there is no control group. If they are selecting the healthiest patients to get it, they have no way of knowing whether all those people would have done just as well without it. If they're giving it in conjunction with other treatments, they have no way of knowing which component is significant, and by how much. This is why pharmaceutical trials must be randomized, blind, and placebo-controlled.

The University of Minnesota's large, randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled study showed no benefit from HCQ. The large, randomized RECOVERY study in UK showed no benefit. Anecdotal accounts from random healthcare workers who want to believe that it helps their patients do not outweigh the evidence of "gold standard" clinical trials.

  • Like 8
Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...