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11 hours ago, square_25 said:

Yeah, I saw this as well. I do think there's a decent chance that half the population is already resistant, given this data. What I would REALLY like to know is whether people with this T-cell immunity are the ones who are asymptomatic and whether they can spread it? It's possible that explains the widely varying courses of disease to some extent. 

Well the puzzling thing is that those of us who are on biologics that are lowering our t-cells- things like Humira, Enbrel, Cimzia, ETC.  are actually not at higher risk for getting COVID amd some of these type of medications have been used with COVID with some success.

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4 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Here’s a thought.  If the main point of testing is to catch and isolate within three days why not test most recent tests first to older tests.  Yes it would mean some people who are waiting would wait even longer.  But it would mean in places with a backlog the contact tracers would still be effective.  Finding results from ten days ago might give peace of mind to people but actually achieves very little in terms of squashing the epidemic.

My opinion?  Don’t delay testing for anyone. (Hire more lab personnel if possible). But utilize the contact tracers on the recent tests.  It’s a waste of resources to try to contact trace the older tests. 

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@square_25  this is a few months old, and extremely oversimplified (plus infected cells making tentacles and T-cells being hijacked etc wasn’t known then afaik) — but nonetheless possibly helpful in a partial explanation of the contagious Asymptomatic phase and also has electron microscope pictures 

https://youtu.be/4S3DXXtRZZg

https://youtu.be/4S3DXXtRZZg

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On 7/27/2020 at 7:45 AM, square_25 said:

I do not think he's actually being fair, that's my point. But it's certainly a compilation of studies, and I should take a look. Thank you! 

 

The most negative study for HCQ to my way of thinking so far has been one using monkeys, but I have not yet been able to read the underlying study only that it did not find a benefit.

 

Against that there was clear in vitro evidence that started for SARS1 and MERS; the India decision based on their observations of prophylactic benefit; and several doctors who I believe and respect saying they see clinical benefits (not for every patient, but for the ones that are helped anything that can break a downward disease trajectory even in a subset of cases is excellent right now). 

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Immune system 

 

@Ausmumof3 @square_25

https://youtu.be/7GRDVBiSE9U

https://youtu.be/qxIfNfc2Gic

 

2 recent and possibly helpful DrBeen videos, both reasonably short

 

This one iirc was about monoclonal antibodies— and in exploration of that it also went into some immune system function. (I haven’t rewatched before posting so hope it one I am thinking it is!) 

 

https://youtu.be/g8LFxGh2u28

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Hcq antiviral 

 

 

I think it is helpful to look at some information from before this became a political issue, even though related to other viruses 

for example there are many studies for HCQ like the one pulled from google below (google scholar can reveal more)    HCQ helping innate immunity in the first place  fits very well with what seems to be needed to deal with HCQ . 

Does it actually work — not, mind you, as a magic bullet “cure” but as a useful tool to reduce severe consequences ? I can’t prove to you that it does.  

And I accept that there isn’t enough of the stuff to get to everyone. 

 

However, I am pretty sure that it does help—again, not a magic bullet cure (and probably not even as beneficial as getting Vitamin D levels,  zinc etc optimized, since helping innate immune wing needs to have the basic molecules etc present to work with.  Even excellent vaccines may not work well in absence of zinc etc). 

 

imo for an illness that seems to kill and debilitate due to over response of the acquired immune system, I think whatever can help at innate immune response level is preferable 

by TH Chang · 2014 · Cited by 5 · Related articles
Hydroxychloroquine (HCQ) is an antimalarial drug also used in treating autoimmune diseases. It is also an autophagosome-lysosome fusion inhibitor broadly  ...
 
 
Edited by Pen
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4 hours ago, TravelingChris said:

Well the puzzling thing is that those of us who are on biologics that are lowering our t-cells- things like Humira, Enbrel, Cimzia, ETC.  are actually not at higher risk for getting COVID amd some of these type of medications have been used with COVID with some success.

Oh, that is comforting.  (I take Enbrel.) Do you have any links?  

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1 hour ago, Junie said:

Oh, that is comforting.  (I take Enbrel.) Do you have any links?  

 https://www.ajmc.com/newsroom/majority-of-patients-with-rheumatic-conditions-recover-from-covid19-regardless-of-rheumatic-disease-therapy

In that article, it mentions that anti- TNF users (both Enbrel that you take and Cimzia that I take are anti-TNF biologics) are less likely to be hospitalized than non rheumatoid patients.  Moderate to high use of glucosteroids is linked to higher odds of hospitalization and I am very happy that I am back down to low dose of steroid now.    My rheumatologist also told me this last week- that with regards to my arthritis, I may have slightly better odds of getting it but with my medications, less likely to be severe.  Now I also have moderate asthma so there is that too and I am really uninterested in becoming a test subject for whether my genes will protect me, my biologic will protect me or whether my asthma will kill me.

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1 hour ago, Bagels McGruffikin said:

Well this will break your heart to pieces, hunger trends reversing and worsening for the first time in decades, mostly impacting the youngest children 😭

https://apnews.com/5cbee9693c52728a3808f4e7b4965cbd

Food production and supply chains have to recover to have any hope of addressing the rising food costs squeezing the developed world. It’s just awful.

Ugh, between this and the story from my hometown of the orphaned toddlers who are sick with it, and the grandma is afraid to hold them for fear she'll get it and die, leaving them with no one...my hear tis just torn apart lately. 

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4 hours ago, Pen said:

Hcq antiviral 

 

 

I think it is helpful to look at some information from before this became a political issue, even though related to other viruses 

for example there are many studies for HCQ like the one pulled from google below (google scholar can reveal more)    HCQ helping innate immunity in the first place  fits very well with what seems to be needed to deal with HCQ . 

Does it actually work — not, mind you, as a magic bullet “cure” but as a useful tool to reduce severe consequences ? I can’t prove to you that it does.  

And I accept that there isn’t enough of the stuff to get to everyone. 

 

However, I am pretty sure that it does help—again, not a magic bullet cure (and probably not even as beneficial as getting Vitamin D levels,  zinc etc optimized, since helping innate immune wing needs to have the basic molecules etc present to work with.  Even excellent vaccines may not work well in absence of zinc etc). 

 

imo for an illness that seems to kill and debilitate due to over response of the acquired immune system, I think whatever can help at innate immune response level is preferable 

by TH Chang · 2014 · Cited by 5 · Related articles
Hydroxychloroquine (HCQ) is an antimalarial drug also used in treating autoimmune diseases. It is also an autophagosome-lysosome fusion inhibitor broadly  ...
 
 

 

@square_25  quoting myself to add that the timing (of multiple possible mitigation strategies) is extremely important .  For a medicine that has been shown to activate or support innate immunity with regard to viruses (established in times past with other viruses—but keep in mind that innate immune system does not have the same degree of specificity as the acquired part of the immune system (antibodies)) applying it too late is nonsensical.

 

As an analogy, we could argue about whether or not seatbelts and airbags do or do not help to protect people in a car crash.  Timing though is critical.  No number of studies, no matter how good the randomness and controls and perhaps double blind aspects, no matter how prestigious the journal it appears in, where it is concluded that seatbelts and airbags deployed on patients in the hospital both on the ward and in icu do not seem to improve outcomes is going to convince me that they have no place when used at correct time and circumstances. To help, I believe that good seatbelts must already be properly fastened prior to impact, and the airbags need to deploy properly at impact.  Will seatbelts and airbags applied to patients in icu beds help them? Of course not.  (Or at least I don’t thing so unless falling out of bed is a problem.)  Once a person is in hospital after a car crash, it is too late for seatbelts and airbags to be likely to help.

I find the late (already in hospital) application of Hcq or indeed anything with a principal mode of action being support of innate immune system to have a similarly  very low probability of helping. That it has helped at all apparently in some cases early in course of hospitalization is actually really remarkable! But that it often doesn’t is not particularly a surprise.  Similarly, using a too high dose at wrong time causing more harm is also no surprise, kind of like giving exploding airbags to people already in ICU.  

 

I know you were studying viruses for homeschool.  Your daughter sounds super smart .  Maybe you would both enjoy studying the immune system next!!!

 

Edited by Pen
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QLD.

two new cases.  One school closed down temporarily due to a teacher being infected.  Two women went to qld via Sydney from Melbourne and did not self isolate/quarantine but went to multiple locations.  It’s being treated as a criminal investigation.  Because of their absolute selfishness aged care homes across three QLD areas have had to close to all visitors as a precaution.

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Norman Swans Coronacast was interesting today.  I had wondered why not move people out of aged care settings where there was an outbreak if possible.  He said apparently moving people with dementia has a high risk of causing delirium which can also kill so moving dementia patients requires a huge amount of care.  

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49 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Norman Swans Coronacast was interesting today.  I had wondered why not move people out of aged care settings where there was an outbreak if possible.  He said apparently moving people with dementia has a high risk of causing delirium which can also kill so moving dementia patients requires a huge amount of care.  


Trying to find that podcast.  Yes, moving plus dementia can be harrowing.  And witnessing delirium is pretty traumatic for loved ones (said with experience).  I did not know it could kill.  Not surprised, but would like to hear more.
 

I think often, too, there’s no safer place to move elderly care home residents.  We have one elderly dementia patient at home - her care is all I can manage, and one in assisted living getting ready to move to long term nursing.  We can’t handle her care needs.  We have another parent in nursing, whose care needs are beyond our abilities, also dementia, but wheelchair bound as well.  I wish we could bring them all home, but we just can’t accommodate the level of care.

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12 minutes ago, Teaching3bears said:

Has anyone heard of FAR UV3 (sp?) lights to kill coronavirus? It sounded really promising in the podcast I was listening to. You turn them on in the room and it kills coronavirus and flu. They haven't manufactured many yet though.

 

Yes.  That would help probably to decrease a number of infectious illness if deployed in places like schools

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46 minutes ago, Spryte said:


Trying to find that podcast.  Yes, moving plus dementia can be harrowing.  And witnessing delirium is pretty traumatic for loved ones (said with experience).  I did not know it could kill.  Not surprised, but would like to hear more.
 

I think often, too, there’s no safer place to move elderly care home residents.  We have one elderly dementia patient at home - her care is all I can manage, and one in assisted living getting ready to move to long term nursing.  We can’t handle her care needs.  We have another parent in nursing, whose care needs are beyond our abilities, also dementia, but wheelchair bound as well.  I wish we could bring them all home, but we just can’t accommodate the level of care.

https://www.abc.net.au/radio/programs/coronacast/
 

here you are.. it was only a short part of the overall podcast 

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34 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

A good general discussion today on DrBeen

(And a direct statement that he thinks schools

should not open.)

 

Pen, what is his general take on Ivermectin? I was really interested in that when it was first being floated as potential treatment, but there doesn't seem to have been much (if any) research beyond that initial in vitro study, has there?

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19 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

Pen, what is his general take on Ivermectin? I was really interested in that when it was first being floated as potential treatment, but there doesn't seem to have been much (if any) research beyond that initial in vitro study, has there?

 

I think he should speak for himself on that:

24 minute video on Ivermectin 

 

 

 

 

https://youtu.be/rFE3XE68Wfw

 

In addition,

some of the viewer comments include anecdotes from people who say they took it, comments about it in Bangladeshi use, etc. 

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12 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

Sounds like there hasn't been any further research beyond the original in vitro study. I wonder why there seems to be so little interest in it?

 

I think some studies are underway.

 

You might want to look at Peru information for Ivermectin.   (Peru seems to be very positive about it.  )

I think Dr Been May have said he has used it off label for some patients , but I don’t recall for sure. And I think Marik also discussed using it. 

 

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36 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

Sounds like there hasn't been any further research beyond the original in vitro study. I wonder why there seems to be so little interest in it?

Well, there are actually several countries that are using it...but they are, like with their HCQ use, just using it as a cheap drug with minimal side effects that they think may help, no trials, just using it on almost everyone. There was a kit I saw that had HCQ, vitamin D, zinc, ivermectin, basically throwing all possibilities in there. 

Brazil is apparently doing a study:

https://www.trialsitenews.com/prominent-brazilian-university-embarks-on-phase-2-ivermectin-clinical-trial/

 

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43 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

You might want to look at Peru information for Ivermectin.   (Peru seems to be very positive about it.  )

I think Dr Been May have said he has used it off label for some patients , but I don’t recall for sure. And I think Marik also discussed using it. 

 

Peru is basically just using it, no studies.

https://www.trialsitenews.com/perus-universities-now-produce-ivermectin-in-collaboration-with-regional-health-authorities-in-a-fight-for-survival/

Here is an active clinical trial for ivermectin, recruiting volunteers now, randomized, but so small I don't see how it will be able to prove anything either way.

https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04472585?term=Ivermectin&cond=Coronavirus&draw=2&rank=2

Edited by ElizabethB
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295 cases for vic today.  9 deaths.  39 couldn’t be contacted when checking if they were self isolating.  Contact tracing is successfully finding links through NSW cases.  The aged care scenario is bad.  Staff from my state going to vic to help out. 

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1 hour ago, ElizabethB said:

Well, there are actually several countries that are using it...but they are, like with their HCQ use, just using it as a cheap drug with minimal side effects that they think may help, no trials, just using it on almost everyone. There was a kit I saw that had HCQ, vitamin D, zinc, ivermectin, basically throwing all possibilities in there. 

Brazil is apparently doing a study:

https://www.trialsitenews.com/prominent-brazilian-university-embarks-on-phase-2-ivermectin-clinical-trial/

 

That sounds promising, I wonder how many participants they will have? 
 

1 hour ago, ElizabethB said:

Here is an active clinical trial for ivermectin, recruiting volunteers now, randomized, but so small I don't see how it will be able to prove anything either way.

https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04472585?term=Ivermectin&cond=Coronavirus&draw=2&rank=2

Too bad that one is so small, especially since they are including zinc. How can they have a randomized, placebo controlled, multi-arm study with only 40 people???

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https://www.preprints.org/manuscript/202007.0025/v1
 

I managed to get the link to the Zev zelenko HCQ zinc study time work now.  It Is a retrospective study and seems to be no control for age/ severity etc however it’s here if anyone wants to read it.  Not yet peer reviewed.  I think someone does need to do a large scale well designed study on this to either settle the question or prove it works.  I know there’s still studies ongoing so hopefully something bigger scale is in the works.

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2 hours ago, Corraleno said:

That sounds promising, I wonder how many participants they will have? 
 

Too bad that one is so small, especially since they are including zinc. How can they have a randomized, placebo controlled, multi-arm study with only 40 people???

Seriously.  You'll only get a significant finding with those numbers if everyone lives in one arm and everyone dies in the another, it's ridiculous.

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10 hours ago, Teaching3bears said:

Has anyone heard of FAR UV3 (sp?) lights to kill coronavirus? It sounded really promising in the podcast I was listening to. You turn them on in the room and it kills coronavirus and flu. They haven't manufactured many yet though.

 

I don’t know if they’re being used much yet but they could be very helpful. (They’re far UVC lights.)

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-67211-2

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6 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

https://www.preprints.org/manuscript/202007.0025/v1
 

I managed to get the link to the Zev zelenko HCQ zinc study time work now.  It Is a retrospective study and seems to be no control for age/ severity etc however it’s here if anyone wants to read it.  Not yet peer reviewed.  I think someone does need to do a large scale well designed study on this to either settle the question or prove it works.  I know there’s still studies ongoing so hopefully something bigger scale is in the works.

 

It is hard to feel like it would be ethical— but it could be done.

Australia apparently has a good stockpile of HCQ— maybe half of all Melbourne / Vic teachers and students who don’t have    Health reasons not to and who would be willing to do the experiment could randomly receive the Solanco ZELENKO (speech recognition troubles) prophylactic Protocol (HCQ plus zinc plus in an interview I heard he said all his patients were tested for D status and brought to optimal whenever they saw him for anything—he wasn’t asked about vitamins K -&2, but they should be part of a test protocol too imo) or a placebo similar looking protocol and also a quarter or so sized cohort to receive just the zinc and D (and K) but no HCQ, and a last quarter to get the whole protocol except Quercitin rather than HCQ.   

Then (with the teachers and students who had bad health and were not able to get the HCQ-zinc Etc, or didn’t want to be in the experiment all staying home) schools now shut could then reopen, and scientists could follow what happens and see if there are statistically meaningfully fewer severe cases of CV19 in the people who were put on the prophylaxis than in those who were not. 

 

ETA- it would have to be a population size large enough to be meaningful yet small enough for researchers to administer the weekly HCQ or placebo for it.  And it would have to be a group of people who could be relied on to properly take their daily zinc etc (or placebo) .   Possibly an occasional mess up and forgetting would be similar to real

life and okay, but I can imagine people (and expect it would be case if tried to run in USA) deliberately screwing up the experiment. 

(As something that is supposed to activate and support innate immunity my hypothesis would be that I would expect some positive cases, but much less severity because innate immune system would handle it usually without it turning in to a cytokine storm crisis.  

Zelenko himself is an interesting test case, though not himself statistically significant.  I think he’s been back in hospital due to his cancer and he is a very high risk for CV19 severe case or fatality and was sort of doing self experimentation on himself by trusting his protocol .  Sort of like in much older days of science when scientists would test things on themselves.) 

 

Edited by Pen
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1 hour ago, Ausmumof3 said:

https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/results?cond=COVID-19&term=Ivermectin&cntry=&state=&city=&dist=&Search=Search
 

looks like 33 studies on ivermectin registered on but they are mostly under 100.  The singapore one is much larger but I feel like their outbreak may have been too well controlled to provide good evidence?

 

I know you want statistically significant numbers. 

I on the other hand, would be happy with information coming from someplace that I think has decent medical and science infrastructure and ability to report things, like Singapore or South Korea,  that Ivermectin given at such and such a stage appeared to clinicians to turn sick patients around toward wellness.  

There is a lot in medicine that we rely on and know on what would originally be considered a clinical or anecdotal basis. 

And I think doctors used to learn whom to treat with what and when partly / mostly on the basis of experience, not on evidence based studies. 

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@Corraleno @Ausmumof3

another drBeen on Ivermectin - I think his comment early that there are multiple medicines that seem to work for some people is very important.   Another reason that clinical practice (rather than studies) can be important is that as a patient I want something that works for me, not something that works for a stat significant percentage of people — but not for me. 

 

 

 

 

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This is interesting. If fit and fabric are key to an effective mask that will protect the wearer, I don't think you can get better than this. It uses kinesiology tape to seal all around the face. No ties at all. They are disposable and can be worn all day. They can be removed temporarily to eat, but as with most adhesives, once removed, it loses a little bit of the tackiness. What says the Hive? https://spidertech.com/us/ready-face-mask

 

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2 hours ago, BusyMom5 said:

I am behind- ivermectin like the cattle wormer???  From the farm store???

 

Not from the farm store.  

self administered  bovine medicine is probably very dangerous. 

Ivermectin  From a pharmacy.  It’s FDA approved for worms in humans. 

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8 hours ago, Pen said:

Australia apparently has a good stockpile of HCQ— maybe half of all Melbourne / Vic teachers and students who don’t have    Health reasons not to and who would be willing to do the experiment could randomly receive the Solanco ZELENKO (speech recognition troubles) prophylactic Protocol (HCQ plus zinc plus in an interview I heard he said all his patients were tested for D status and brought to optimal whenever they saw him for anything—he wasn’t asked about vitamins K -&2, but they should be part of a test protocol too imo) or a placebo similar looking protocol and also a quarter or so sized cohort to receive just the zinc and D (and K) but no HCQ, and a last quarter to get the whole protocol except Quercitin rather than HCQ.   

That would be absolutely ideal, as it would allow the effects of HCQ, quercetin, and Zinc/D to be measured separately. That is the kind of the study I would find convincing if it showed significant benefit for HCQ.

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18 hours ago, Corraleno said:

Sounds like there hasn't been any further research beyond the original in vitro study. I wonder why there seems to be so little interest in it?

I’m probably cynical but I don’t see the money in it.  Doing official studies takes time and money and for what?  A cheap existing drug?  So many doctors/countries are using drugs off-label that they claim anecdotally is working, but no interest in clinical trials.  There’s more money and funding in a brand new vaccine.  Again, don’t need to flame me.  It’s just how I feel.

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35 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

That would be absolutely ideal, as it would allow the effects of HCQ, quercetin, and Zinc/D to be measured separately. That is the kind of the study I would find convincing if it showed significant benefit for HCQ.

 

Also, if it showed Quercitin equal or even close, I would like to know that. 

 

Quercitin for those who can take it seems worthwhile also for potentially reducing allergies and thus there being less “is this allergy or is this Covid” confusion perhaps.  

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32 minutes ago, matrips said:

I’m probably cynical but I don’t see the money in it.  Doing official studies takes time and money and for what?  A cheap existing drug?  So many doctors/countries are using drugs off-label that they claim anecdotally is working, but no interest in clinical trials.  There’s more money and funding in a brand new vaccine.  Again, don’t need to flame me.  It’s just how I feel.

 

I think you may be correct.  And financial gain may be a reason for studies done in ways to discredit some cheaper meds.  

 

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43 minutes ago, matrips said:

I’m probably cynical but I don’t see the money in it.  Doing official studies takes time and money and for what?  A cheap existing drug?  So many doctors/countries are using drugs off-label that they claim anecdotally is working, but no interest in clinical trials.  There’s more money and funding in a brand new vaccine.  Again, don’t need to flame me.  It’s just how I feel.

But in countries with socialized medicine, a cheap existing drug is exactly what they would want to work. 

And dexamethasone is a cheap, existing drug, and being studied and considered to be effective. 

Heck, prone positioning is free, and being considered effective. So cost doesn't seem to be the main factor. 

Edited by Ktgrok
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1 hour ago, Pen said:

 

Not from the farm store.  

self administered  bovine medicine is probably very dangerous. 

Ivermectin  From a pharmacy.  It’s FDA approved for worms in humans. 

Ivermectin is approved for humans. I have taken it. It was a pill. I am fairly sure that my dose was much much less what is given to a cow seeing as my weight is much less. 

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3 hours ago, Plum said:

This is interesting. If fit and fabric are key to an effective mask that will protect the wearer, I don't think you can get better than this. It uses kinesiology tape to seal all around the face. No ties at all. They are disposable and can be worn all day. They can be removed temporarily to eat, but as with most adhesives, once removed, it loses a little bit of the tackiness. What says the Hive? https://spidertech.com/us/ready-face-mask

 

I’d like to know what their viral filtration efficiency is.   It does seem like for long hours use it could help. 

 

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34 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

Also, if it showed Quercitin equal or even close, I would like to know that. 

 

Quercitin for those who can take it seems worthwhile also for potentially reducing allergies and thus there being less “is this allergy or is this Covid” confusion perhaps.  

We actually do have a prophylactic trial registered for health workers though not with the zinc components unfortunately.  I’m not sure if it’s still running.

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22 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

But in countries with socialized medicine, a cheap existing drug is exactly what they would want to work. 

And dexamethasone is a cheap, existing drug, and being studied and considered to be effective. 

Heck, prone positioning is free, and being considered effective. So cost doesn't seem to be the main factor. 

 

Cuba is using HCQ and apparently considering Ivermectin 

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