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wuhan - coronavirus

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25 minutes ago, Acadie said:

Has this been posted anywhere? Covid as blood vessel disease--potential avenue for better pharmaceutical treatments.

https://elemental.medium.com/coronavirus-may-be-a-blood-vessel-disease-which-explains-everything-2c4032481ab2

The mention of the study that found that ACE inhibitors and statins may be protective against Covid 19 really shows how important it is to do proper trials and use caution when we don't understand a disease well. I remember, early on, that there was a question that ACE inhibitors actually increased risk because of the ACE II receptors and I think there were a number of people who changed medications just in case. My dh is on an ARB med and at one point I said to him that he should maybe call his dr and see about changing it, and then I watched one of the Medcram podcasts that said that there was also a possibility that they could be protective so we decided to hold off on trying to change.

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1 minute ago, StellaM said:

Not if you work in a public school.

Still banned here.

Masks are banned there?  Here they've been very clear that they're required for teachers.  Not me, since I'll be teaching remotely, but the people teaching in person.  

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Oregonians:

public feedback is currently being solicited by state health authority in re health  care

issues   Link on OHA website. 

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As if 2020 couldn't get any weirder.... monkeys attacked a medical worker in India and stole 4 vials of blood from Covid-positive patients 😳

 

(Reuters) - A troop of monkeys in India attacked a medical official and snatched away blood samples of patients who had tested positive for the novel coronavirus, authorities said on Friday.

The attack occurred this week when a laboratory technician was walking in the campus of a state-run medical college in Meerut, 460 km (285 miles) north of Lucknow, capital of Uttar Pradesh state.

"Monkeys grabbed and fled with the blood samples of four COVID-19 patients who are undergoing treatment ... we had to take their blood samples again," said Dr S. K. Garg, a top official at the college.

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Just now, Corraleno said:

Pretty sure this is how Planet of the Apes started.  

Though, looking around, I, for one, welcome my ape overlords.  I'm thinking they've got to be an improvement.  More environmentally minded, for one thing.

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12 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

 

I hope they don’t get sick from the infected blood.   The article says there’s no evidence monkeys can contract the infection-/but monkeys were being used to test the Oxford vaccine.   I would think that means they can get sick from it. And I don’t see any reason to think it could not then spread back to humans. 

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4 hours ago, Pen said:

@Acadie  I cannot access the link you gave due to a “redirects” problem. Is it similar in ideas/ content to this?  https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200522/blood-vessels-in-lungs-split-in-response-to-covid19

I'd say similar, yes. Here's the conclusion:

If Covid-19 is a vascular disease, the best antiviral therapy might not be antiviral therapy

An alternative theory is that the blood clotting and symptoms in other organs are caused by inflammation in the body due to an over-reactive immune response — the so-called cytokine storm. This inflammatory reaction can occur in other respiratory illnesses and severe cases of pneumonia, which is why the initial reports of blood clots, heart complications, and neurological symptoms didn’t sound the alarm bells. However, the magnitude of the problems seen with Covid-19 appear to go beyond the inflammation experienced in other respiratory infections.

“There is some increased propensity, we think, of clotting happening with these [other] viruses. I think inflammation in general promotes that,” Sethi says. “Is this over and above or unique for SARS-CoV-2, or is that just because [the infection] is just that much more severe? I think those are all really good questions that unfortunately we don’t have the answer to yet.”

Anecdotally, Sethi says the number of requests he received as the director of the pulmonary embolism response team, which deals with blood clots in the lungs, in April 2020 was two to three times the number in April 2019. The question he’s now trying to answer is whether that’s because there were simply more patients at the hospital during that month, the peak of the pandemic, or if Covid-19 patients really do have a higher risk for blood clots.

“I suspect from what we see and what our preliminary data show is that this virus has an additional risk factor for blood clots, but I can’t prove that yet,” Sethi says.

The good news is that if Covid-19 is a vascular disease, there are existing drugs that can help protect against endothelial cell damage. In another New England Journal of Medicine paper that looked at nearly 9,000 people with Covid-19, Mehra showed that the use of statins and ACE inhibitors were linked to higher rates of survival. Statins reduce the risk of heart attacks not only by lowering cholesterol or preventing plaque, they also stabilize existing plaque, meaning they’re less likely to rupture if someone is on the drugs.

“It turns out that both statins and ACE inhibitors are extremely protective on vascular dysfunction,” Mehra says. “Most of their benefit in the continuum of cardiovascular illness — be it high blood pressure, be it stroke, be it heart attack, be it arrhythmia, be it heart failure — in any situation the mechanism by which they protect the cardiovascular system starts with their ability to stabilize the endothelial cells.”

Mehra continues, “What we’re saying is that maybe the best antiviral therapy is not actually an antiviral therapy. The best therapy might actually be a drug that stabilizes the vascular endothelial. We’re building a drastically different concept.”

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For anyone wondering what would happen if you drove the virus numbers way, way down, but not quite to zero, and then reopened pretty much everything really fast, Israel has the answer for you!  Exponential growth.  From 5 new cases to 121 in just 5 days.

Most new cases are associated with schools, which opened in a limited way about month ago but fully opened two weeks ago, with (some) mask-wearing but little social distancing.  There has been a massive outbreak at a Jerusalem high school, with 120+ students and teachers diagnosed so far, plus infected family members.  For anyone taking notes at home, the school is not in a hotspot and draws from a population that has seen very few infections.  But one ill seventh grader was enough.  

Bafflingly, the brand-new Cabinet has declined to follow the Health Ministry's recommendation to close middle and high schools and go back to distance learning for the remainder of the school year, which ends June 20.  My read is that this is a power move having to do with interministerial politics.  Awesome that it involves the health of the nation's children.  

The school is an elite magnet school so there are siblings at elementary schools all over the city. We did not send our elementary schoolers back but my parents WhatsApp list is lit up with queries about this.  What a mess.

 

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2 hours ago, JennyD said:

For anyone wondering what would happen if you drove the virus numbers way, way down, but not quite to zero, and then reopened pretty much everything really fast, Israel has the answer for you!  Exponential growth.  From 5 new cases to 121 in just 5 days.

Most new cases are associated with schools, which opened in a limited way about month ago but fully opened two weeks ago, with (some) mask-wearing but little social distancing.  There has been a massive outbreak at a Jerusalem high school, with 120+ students and teachers diagnosed so far, plus infected family members.  For anyone taking notes at home, the school is not in a hotspot and draws from a population that has seen very few infections.  But one ill seventh grader was enough.  

Bafflingly, the brand-new Cabinet has declined to follow the Health Ministry's recommendation to close middle and high schools and go back to distance learning for the remainder of the school year, which ends June 20.  My read is that this is a power move having to do with interministerial politics.  Awesome that it involves the health of the nation's children.  

The school is an elite magnet school so there are siblings at elementary schools all over the city. We did not send our elementary schoolers back but my parents WhatsApp list is lit up with queries about this.  What a mess.

 

 

Thanks. Sobering and sad update.

 

if virus causes sterility in some as delayed infection effect— perhaps even in Asymptomatic cases— it may affect more than just one generation of children

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2 hours ago, JennyD said:

For anyone wondering what would happen if you drove the virus numbers way, way down, but not quite to zero, and then reopened pretty much everything really fast, Israel has the answer for you!  Exponential growth.  From 5 new cases to 121 in just 5 days.

Most new cases are associated with schools, which opened in a limited way about month ago but fully opened two weeks ago, with (some) mask-wearing but little social distancing.  There has been a massive outbreak at a Jerusalem high school, with 120+ students and teachers diagnosed so far, plus infected family members.  For anyone taking notes at home, the school is not in a hotspot and draws from a population that has seen very few infections.  But one ill seventh grader was enough.  

Bafflingly, the brand-new Cabinet has declined to follow the Health Ministry's recommendation to close middle and high schools and go back to distance learning for the remainder of the school year, which ends June 20.  My read is that this is a power move having to do with interministerial politics.  Awesome that it involves the health of the nation's children.  

The school is an elite magnet school so there are siblings at elementary schools all over the city. We did not send our elementary schoolers back but my parents WhatsApp list is lit up with queries about this.  What a mess.

 

Oh, goodness :-(. 

That's evidence older kids spread it, I guess. I wonder if younger kids do? 

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The ruby princess now has a case of tuberculosis amongst crew on board.  That also happened on the us navy ship.

I realise two cases doesn’t exactly make a trend but I’m wondering if COVID makes people more vulnerable to bacterial infections.  Presumably the guy already had the bacteria and it’s just flared to the point it’s become noticeable because they haven’t been able to get off the ship anywhere.  I have no idea about TB - is that how it works?

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Wiki has this 

Tuberculosis is spread from one person to the next through the air when people who have active TB in their lungs cough, spit, speak, or sneeze.[1][10] People with latent TB do not spread the disease.[1] Active infection occurs more often in people with HIV/AIDS and in those who smoke.[1] 

give the Preprint study about how covid uses a similar technique to HIV to hide itself (im probably getting that horribly wrong) I’m wondering if covid has a similar impact on the immune system in some people.

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https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/disputed-hydroxychloroquine-study-brings-scrutiny-to-surgisphere-67595
 

significant questions raised over the data In the lancet hydroxychloroquine study.  
 

On May 28, an open letter, which has now accrued more than 180 signatories at research institutions around the world, laid out multiple other problems with the study data and analyses. In addition, readers of the study are beginning to ask about the nature and history of Surgisphere, and how it managed to obtain such a complex dataset in a relatively short period of time. 

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34 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

The ruby princess now has a case of tuberculosis amongst crew on board.  That also happened on the us navy ship.

I realise two cases doesn’t exactly make a trend but I’m wondering if COVID makes people more vulnerable to bacterial infections.  Presumably the guy already had the bacteria and it’s just flared to the point it’s become noticeable because they haven’t been able to get off the ship anywhere.  I have no idea about TB - is that how it works?

 

 

I think the bacteria problem is why Azithromycin was being used as part of treatment cocktail, and that it was already clear that CV19 was making people vulnerable to bacterial infection especially of lungs, along with the viral, though I had not particularly heard TB before this. 

there was a TB, including antibiotic-resistant  TB, epidemic in NYC at one point when I lived there.   I think even without an epidemic of TB, it is perhaps “around” a good bit more than we realize, but probably usually kept at bay by our usual decent immunity, sanitation, hygiene and so forth. 

 

And yes, if this is your question, TB can be latent.  It can also attack parts of body other than lungs. 

 

 

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35 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/disputed-hydroxychloroquine-study-brings-scrutiny-to-surgisphere-67595
 

significant questions raised over the data In the lancet hydroxychloroquine study.  
 

On May 28, an open letter, which has now accrued more than 180 signatories at research institutions around the world, laid out multiple other problems with the study data and analyses. In addition, readers of the study are beginning to ask about the nature and history of Surgisphere, and how it managed to obtain such a complex dataset in a relatively short period of time. 

 

I’d like to see an investigation also into into Mehra and others financial interests in regard to the HCQ etc research.  HCQ is inexpensive (or at least would be if we set about making plenty in USA where we seem to be very low, or for Australia that already has it stockpiled, or India that can make it) and long off patents.  What afaik is this same “Mehra” in Boston, but maybe I am wrong, and maybe my impression is wrong, but the Mehra’s group I found when trying to get more info on the negatives on HCQ which don’t jive with what I have heard irl, or from the searches of older studies I did,  It seems to be a group that is promoting and into much more expensive medicines and also into expensive and high tech therapies.  (I don’t just mean re CV19, but from things I looked up about the Brigham and Women’s Cardio unit my impression was that it seems like it goes after the high $$$ stuff.  I hope I am wrong about my unfavorable impression. I had not looked into Surgisphere and Desai as much, but don’t have much favorable impression.)

 

Anyway, I am glad they are at least looking into Surgisphere. 

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37 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

 

I think the bacteria problem is why Azithromycin was being used as part of treatment cocktail, and that it was already clear that CV19 was making people vulnerable to bacterial infection especially of lungs, along with the viral, though I had not particularly heard TB before this. 

there was a TB, including antibiotic-resistant  TB, epidemic in NYC at one point when I lived there.   I think even without an epidemic of TB, it is perhaps “around” a good bit more than we realize, but probably usually kept at bay by our usual decent immunity, sanitation, hygiene and so forth. 

 

And yes, if this is your question, TB can be latent.  It can also attack parts of body other than lungs. 

 

 

Googling shows that there are concerns that people aren’t seeking treatment for tb and tb programmes are under pressure due to lockdowns so there’s concerns about resurgence in some countries!  Scary.

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I can’t remember which was the other thread we were talking about hydroxychloroquine stuff but if anyone can the questions over the study should possibly be shared there 

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26 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I can’t remember which was the other thread we were talking about hydroxychloroquine stuff but if anyone can the questions over the study should possibly be shared there 

It was acthread started by @Quill  — I cannot recall title—maybe tagging she’ll see and can find the thread and post the link you put above 

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1 minute ago, Pen said:

It was acthread started by @Quill  — I cannot recall title—maybe tagging she’ll see and can find the thread and post the link you put above 

Yes! This one. “My conspiracy theory for the day - hydroxychloroquine”

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35 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Googling shows that there are concerns that people aren’t seeking treatment for tb and tb programmes are under pressure due to lockdowns so there’s concerns about resurgence in some countries!  Scary.

A lot of third world countries have robust vaccine programs that require people to go to the homes to vaccinate. Now none of that is happening. Also, where does the funding and guidance and systems for this come from ? The much maligned WHO of course. I do not want to be political, but I just wanna ......😡

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/polio-was-almost-eradicated-then-came-the-coronavirus-then-came-a-threat-from-president-trump/2020/05/15/ed9d26fe-831c-11ea-81a3-9690c9881111_story.html

I have never, ever been frustrated by American leadership ever. I will just say that. I may not liked every policy or disagreed with many. But on the whole never been frustrated because America was always "leader of the free world" as long as I have known. Ugh....I hate grandstanding.

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Can someone help me out? I look at the new cases in Germany, Italy, France, etc. every day. They continue to go down. The US is still reporting 23k new cases a day. Is it because we're a month behind Europe, or we're doing this really badly, or what?

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3 minutes ago, Kanin said:

Can someone help me out? I look at the new cases in Germany, Italy, France, etc. every day. They continue to go down. The US is still reporting 23k new cases a day. Is it because we're a month behind Europe, or we're doing this really badly, or what?

I wouldn't compare the entire US with countries in Europe. Some places in the US have just started up their curve. I would compare European countries with individual US states or even large cities. I don't think looking at US data as a whole by way of comparison is helpful.

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3 hours ago, Kanin said:

Can someone help me out? I look at the new cases in Germany, Italy, France, etc. every day. They continue to go down. The US is still reporting 23k new cases a day. Is it because we're a month behind Europe, or we're doing this really badly, or what?


Both. We started out several weeks "behind" Europe, so theoretically should have been much better prepared, but we're doing so badly that we've not only "caught up" to Europe, we have already surpassed them in every category but per capita deaths (and we're getting there).

The combined population of Spain, UK, Italy, France, Germany, and Ireland equals the population of the US, but we already have 630,000 more cases than those six countries combined. And those countries only added ~5,000 cases yesterday, while we added 23,000. And lest anyone think it only "looks" like we have so many more cases because we're testing more people and therefore catching more cases: of those six countries, only France has a per capita test rate significantly lower than the US. Italy, Ireland, and Spain are significantly higher, and the UK and Germany are in the same range.

Even if you look at per capita case rates for the hardest hit countries in Europe, we have already passed Italy, France, and the UK, and will probably pass Spain in the next week or so. Besides Spain, the only other countries in the entire world* with higher per capita case rates than the US are Qatar, Bahrain, Kuwait, and Singapore. We should pass Singapore and Spain shortly, and may be #1 in the world for per capita cases, as well as total cases and total deaths, by the end of June.

The only statistic where we are currently lagging behind a few European countries is per capita deaths, but we are quickly catching up because our rate of new deaths per capita is higher than any European country except for one (Sweden!). Since deaths generally trail cases by about a month or so, and we are adding more cases per capita than any European country, we may soon surpass that grim statistic as well.

*not counting tiny countries/principalities (e.g. Andorra), since a few cases skew the per capita numbers so dramatically

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CV19 and air pollution- correlation or contributing effect?

 

 

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7 hours ago, Kanin said:

Can someone help me out? I look at the new cases in Germany, Italy, France, etc. every day. They continue to go down. The US is still reporting 23k new cases a day. Is it because we're a month behind Europe, or we're doing this really badly, or what?

It is being said here that USA is an example of one of the countries that are doing it badly

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49 minutes ago, Pen said:

CV19 and air pollution- correlation or contributing effect?

 

 

I can’t watch a video right now - supervising math and posting - but I have seen people saying that pollution can help virus particles stay suspended and travel further ?  Anyone know more?

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I think it's a combination of, we as a country are doing a very bad job of handling covid, and all the things we were doing badly at in the past coming back to bite us.  

So, for example, it's really hard to expect people to trust the media, when the government has been sabotaging it and insulting members of the press.  It's hard to get people to buy into the idea of protecting low income people of color, or immigrants working in meat processing plants, or people with disabilities who live in nursing homes or rely on home health, when you've vilified those group, and othered them.  It's hard for the health care system to have a rational response, when it's built on profit motive.  

We as Americans are reaping what we've sown.  

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2 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I can’t watch a video right now - supervising math and posting - but I have seen people saying that pollution can help virus particles stay suspended and travel further ?  Anyone know more?

 

Apparently ? viruses can hitch rides on pollution particles. 

 

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6 minutes ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

I think it's a combination of, we as a country are doing a very bad job of handling covid, and all the things we were doing badly at in the past coming back to bite us.  

So, for example, it's really hard to expect people to trust the media, when the government has been sabotaging it and insulting members of the press.  It's hard to get people to buy into the idea of protecting low income people of color, or immigrants working in meat processing plants, or people with disabilities who live in nursing homes or rely on home health, when you've vilified those group, and othered them.  It's hard for the health care system to have a rational response, when it's built on profit motive.  

We as Americans are reaping what we've sown.  

Yep. Ugh.

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Guardian.com

1)

Setti said tiny droplets between 0.1 and 1 micron may travel further when coalesced with pollution particles up to 10 microns than on their own. This is because the combined particle is larger and less dense than the droplet and can remain buoyed by the air for longer.

“The pollution particle is like a micro-airplane and the passengers are the droplets,” said Sett. Reid is more cautious: “I think the very small change in the size of the [combined] particles is unlikely to play much of a role.”

Prof Frank Kelly at Imperial College London said the idea of pollution particles carrying the virus further afield was an interesting one. “It is possible, but I would like to see this work repeated by two or three groups

 

2) and some where else has apparently raised that the pollution plus virus particles rapidly go to lower respiratory tract

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https://academic.oup.com/cid/advance-article/doi/10.1093/cid/ciaa638/5842165
 

another study showing that coronavirus samples from 8 days after symptom onset can’t be cultured meaning most likely no longer infectious.  
 

I imagine if this can be proven absolutely it will make health care much easier because after the initial infection period maybe protocols could be relaxed and family etc may also be able to visit?  

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Just now, Ausmumof3 said:

https://academic.oup.com/cid/advance-article/doi/10.1093/cid/ciaa638/5842165
 

another study showing that coronavirus samples from 8 days after symptom onset can’t be cultured meaning most likely no longer infectious.  
 

I imagine if this can be proven absolutely it will make health care much easier because after the initial infection period maybe protocols could be relaxed and family etc may also be able to visit?  

Visitation isn't restricted because of concerns about contagious patients though.  The lack of PPE is a huge issue, as well as the possibility of visitors bringing the virus into the hospital.  

But yes, this would still be good news.

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25 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

https://academic.oup.com/cid/advance-article/doi/10.1093/cid/ciaa638/5842165
 

another study showing that coronavirus samples from 8 days after symptom onset can’t be cultured meaning most likely no longer infectious.  
 

I imagine if this can be proven absolutely it will make health care much easier because after the initial infection period maybe protocols could be relaxed and family etc may also be able to visit?  

 

It sounds good, but does it fit with reports about some of the “superspreaders”?  Like patient 1 in the northern Italy hotspot? He spread to a lot of people while presymptomatic, but I think he also did so for quite awhile after symptoms and before diagnosis and isolation...   I can’t recall how many days.   

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The weekend dip for us seems to have not gone below 20,000 this time.  Deaths went a lot lower though so it may just mean more testing.

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For those interested in the after effects of Covid:

I spoke to my cousin’s husband again yesterday and he is continuing in the study in Oxford looking at after effects. It is of course a sample of 1 but may be interesting. He had a CT scan which showed he does have at least 1 clot in his lung. They have been keeping an eye on his D-dimer and it is continuing to decrease so they are not treating him with anti-coagulants now. The MRI he had previously showed a 20% decrease in function/capacity of his lungs. The CT apparently confirmed that this was caused by inflammation not scaring so he should recover the function, which is a big relief.

He has been having some palpitations and sweats at night but they are wondering if that might be due to some PTSD as they haven’t found other explanations at the moment.

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1 hour ago, TCB said:

For those interested in the after effects of Covid:

I spoke to my cousin’s husband again yesterday and he is continuing in the study in Oxford looking at after effects. It is of course a sample of 1 but may be interesting. He had a CT scan which showed he does have at least 1 clot in his lung. They have been keeping an eye on his D-dimer and it is continuing to decrease so they are not treating him with anti-coagulants now. The MRI he had previously showed a 20% decrease in function/capacity of his lungs. The CT apparently confirmed that this was caused by inflammation not scaring so he should recover the function, which is a big relief.

He has been having some palpitations and sweats at night but they are wondering if that might be due to some PTSD as they haven’t found other explanations at the moment.

 

Palpitations and sweats sometimes follow on other illnesses after people seem “better” and I think is often physical...   like part of post _____ (post polio, post Lyme, etc).  ?   Does he have fatigue?  

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I have wondered if George Floyd could have had CV19.  Asymptomatic in a sense in that he could be walking around, but with hypoxia. I wonder if that will be tested for. It is possible that it could cause clots with no other symptoms, and that it could cause disorientation or other symptoms if blood going to brain were not sufficiently oxygenated. Regardless of what his situation was, LEOs, First Responders, etc should probably have Pulse Oximeters with them. 

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https://youtu.be/uqqPY8N2d-8

Older and probably already shared here (the info in it  was definitely shared in written form.) 

 Erin Bromage interview on CNN going over his blog post about what situations tend to spread CV19 .  

Possibly a useful reminder, or good to be able to send to people who prefer a video clip to reading. 

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@Ausmumof3  I think this is an interview with the same professor (eta: for others Nikolai Petrovski from Flinders University in Adelaide - important  in field of developing vaccines for viruses) who wrote article that you posted On possible lab origin and human manipulation of SARS2.  

https://youtu.be/oiyTrJehvbU

 

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3 W’s:

 

Wear a mask

Wash your hands

Wait min of 2 meters away from nearest person 

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Dark humor Distancing:

 

Imagine a large adult coffin between you and nearest person, and stay a  ⚰️ coffin away minimum 

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Another doctor with some interesting videos:

 

 

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@ElizabethB

Thought this might interest you.

And I lost track of the Vitamin D thread - this might be good there too:

 

 

 

 

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Medcram 1/2 hour ago re masks...  excellent little video within the video on difference when speaking with mask on versus no mask.

(also good vaccine update and source to look at)

Edited by Pen
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