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I'm posting this just because I'm seeing this over and over, tons of asymptomatic cases. Alaska tests whole boats or processing plants when a case is found and there are just so many asymptomatic cases it's crazy. Of course, it could be that many of these people will come down with symptoms later.  

https://www.ktuu.com/2020/07/23/96-obi-seafoods-employees-test-positive-for-covid-including-11-seward-residents/

 

 

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DS got home 3 hours ago!  ❤️❤️

Update-  my youngest is not only short of breath, coughing, dizzy, nausaues, and with headache-  she is also confused.  I called our doctor and talked with him and she is going to be going to the ER.

Thought I'd post a pic of my dd, getting ready to spend another day in a coronavirus triage tent!  

17 minutes ago, Bagels McGruffikin said:

It does really seem like most people are barely symptomatic or asymptomatic, which is very good news. The people who I know who have tested positive never felt much of anything, except one of the 90 year olds who was incredibly fatigued for several weeks and had lower oxygen saturation for a bit. But seriously, this is a mild illness for the vast majority of people, and that’s very a very good thing. Most of these batch cases at plants are caught because of one symptomatic person, not because everyone called out sick en masse. 

 

I think it makes it more contagious though. It feels impossible to control and thus- overwhelmed hospitals. We are running a 3% of confirmed cases hospitalized up here last I looked which may seem like not a big deal until you have 3% of 200,000 sick at once. 

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10 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

Barring some really good, convincing studies, please leave it for the people who really need it, and for whom it will do some good. It's a drug that requires regular monitoring of people who need it for lupus, RA, etc. I can't imagine allowing something like that to be sold OTC. Very, very bad idea.

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2 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

 

Barring some really good, convincing studies, please leave it for the people who really need it, and for whom it will do some good. It's a drug that requires regular monitoring of people who need it for lupus, RA, etc. I can't imagine allowing something like that to be sold OTC. Very, very bad idea.

 

“They” should Make more.  

It should not be an either or choice.  

A prophylaxis with zinc amount needed is much less than a lupus dose.

 

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1 minute ago, Pawz4me said:

 

Barring some really good, convincing studies, please leave it for the people who really need it, and for whom it will do some good. It's a drug that requires regular monitoring of people who need it for lupus, RA, etc. I can't imagine allowing something like that to be sold OTC. Very, very bad idea.

 

Well, my asthma meds are back ordered because that is another "cure" according to some doctors (who sound like salespeople to me). I hope it doesn't take too long because I know have a lung thing (went for Covid test but no results yet).  At least it is obvious that it helps a Covid patient breath and isn't just a placebo. My friend with RA had to switch drugs for awhile. Hopefully she was able to get some more recently. Haven't talked to her in a month or so. 

 

Here was a trial that started patients early. Obviously, this drug should be taken before things take a turn for the worse and then decisions would have to be made about who gets it.

 

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2016638

 

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4 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

“They” should Make more.  

It should not be an either or choice.  

A prophylaxis with zinc amount needed is much less than a lupus dose.

 

If it's OTC there would be people who would take way more than they were supposed to, believing that more is better. There is no way this drug should be available w/o oversight. And FWIW I do think there are lots of drugs that should be readily available. But this isn't one of them.

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8 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

“They” should Make more.  

It should not be an either or choice.  

A prophylaxis with zinc amount needed is much less than a lupus dose.

 

 

But you are talking about every scared person in America. That is a lot. Humans aren't magicians who just speak things into existence.  If you google production of HCQ you will find that "they" all over the world are ramping up production but what you are asking for (enough for anyone) is asking for something magical in a short time frame.

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15 minutes ago, Bagels McGruffikin said:

Really? There are multiple countries using it with success with early usage. I will see if I can find a few links but the data is actually pretty clear at this point. However with severe cases or later in the treatment cycle it seems to make far less difference than some other treatment choices. 

 

Yes.

All Correct to the best of my knowledge. 

 

It should be used as prophylaxis or very early in illness.  

It does have anti-inflammatory aspects, but those don’t seem to be what is mainly helping.  

 

It works as a zinc ionophore. That is not new information.  (HCQ probably the best and safest, well know and with long track record in medicine, and theoretically the most reasonably priced.  I am also now interested in hinokitiol, but that’s currently $$$$$ and not readily available in USA).  . That zinc can deactivate coronaviruses is also not new information.  

I am making due with Quercitin for now, but it is much less clear that Quercitin works in Vivo as a zinc ionophore (one study, in vitro).   Whereas Hydroxychloroquine action as an ionophore is known.  (Many studies plus clinical experience.) 

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8 minutes ago, frogger said:

 

 

Well, my asthma meds are back ordered because that is another "cure" according to some doctors (who sound like salespeople to me). I hope it doesn't take too long because I know have a lung thing (went for Covid test but no results yet).  At least it is obvious that it helps a Covid patient breath and isn't just a placebo. My friend with RA had to switch drugs for awhile. Hopefully she was able to get some more recently. Haven't talked to her in a month or so. 

 

Here was a trial that started patients early. Obviously, this drug should be taken before things take a turn for the worse and then decisions would have to be made about who gets it.

 

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2016638

 

The study you linked was an excellent randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled study — which concluded that HCQ has no effect as a post-exposure prophylaxis:

We enrolled 821 asymptomatic participants. Overall, 87.6% of the participants (719 of 821) reported a high-risk exposure to a confirmed Covid-19 contact. The incidence of new illness compatible with Covid-19 did not differ significantly between participants receiving hydroxychloroquine (49 of 414 [11.8%]) and those receiving placebo (58 of 407 [14.3%]); the absolute difference was −2.4 percentage points (95% confidence interval, −7.0 to 2.2; P=0.35). Side effects were more common with hydroxychloroquine than with placebo (40.1% vs. 16.8%), but no serious adverse reactions were reported.

After high-risk or moderate-risk exposure to Covid-19, hydroxychloroquine did not prevent illness compatible with Covid-19 or confirmed infection when used as postexposure prophylaxis within 4 days after exposure.

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2 minutes ago, frogger said:

 

But you are talking about every scared person in America. That is a lot. Humans aren't magicians who just speak things into existence.  If you google production of HCQ you will find that "they" all over the world are ramping up production but what you are asking for (enough for anyone) is asking for something magical in a short time frame.

 

Good.  I am glad “they” all over world are ramping production up.

 

Asking for vaccines in large number is also “magical”. 

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7 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

Good.  I am glad “they” all over world are ramping production up.

 

Asking for vaccines in large number is also “magical”. 

 

Certainly, but I would rather a rich person who could afford to take a placebo while self isolating didn't take away meds from an RA or lupis patient who will certainly suffer more from not having their meds.

 

Edited to add there are 3 ways to ration.

1) according to need

2) first come -first served

3) according to price

#2 can also mean hoarding because you have to get stuff while you can. 

 

I assume you are looking at #2 or #3 for rationing your OTC HCQ. 

Edited by frogger
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1 minute ago, frogger said:

 

Certainly, but I would rather a rich person who could afford to take a placebo while self isolating didn't take away meds from an RA or lupis patient who will certainly suffer more from not having their meds.

 

I don’t want people with autoimmunity to suffer either.  

So...

Make plenty first, then have it OTC.

People can kill themselves by taking too much Tylenol too. Doesn’t mean it needs to be kept prescription only.  

It may also seem amazing and magical that production could manage to make so much, but usually there’s enough Tylenol and or aspirin for people who want it. 

 

 

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Can someone please link any randomized, placebo-controlled clinical trial in which HCQ was shown to be effective? Because the only randomized clinical studies I have seen concluded quite clearly that HCQ showed no benefit, while the retrospective/observational/metanalyses that claim to show a positive benefit had significant differences between the HCQ and nonHCQ groups. I'm curious why those who dismissed the large VA study as invalid on the grounds that the more severe patients were in the treatment group willingly accept studies where the more severe patients are in the control group?

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16 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

The study you linked was an excellent randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled study — which concluded that HCQ has no effect as a post-exposure prophylaxis:

We enrolled 821 asymptomatic participants. Overall, 87.6% of the participants (719 of 821) reported a high-risk exposure to a confirmed Covid-19 contact. The incidence of new illness compatible with Covid-19 did not differ significantly between participants receiving hydroxychloroquine (49 of 414 [11.8%]) and those receiving placebo (58 of 407 [14.3%]); the absolute difference was −2.4 percentage points (95% confidence interval, −7.0 to 2.2; P=0.35). Side effects were more common with hydroxychloroquine than with placebo (40.1% vs. 16.8%), but no serious adverse reactions were reported.

After high-risk or moderate-risk exposure to Covid-19, hydroxychloroquine did not prevent illness compatible with Covid-19 or confirmed infection when used as postexposure prophylaxis within 4 days after exposure.

But if its main effect as a prophylactic is because it's a zinc ionophore, wouldn't we need a study like this where it's given with zinc.  Because otherwise it's not very useful...  Almost all of the studies I've seen where it's not that useful, it's alone or with azithromycin (still not sure why that's a combo), but even though I know it has been combined with zinc in practice, I haven't seen any studies.

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1 minute ago, Pen said:

 

I don’t want people with autoimmunity to suffer either.  

So...

Make plenty first, then have it OTC.

People can kill themselves by taking too much Tylenol too. Doesn’t mean it needs to be kept prescription only.  

It may also seem amazing and magical that production could manage to make so much, but usually there’s enough Tylenol and or aspirin for people who want it. 

 

 

Yes, but that happened over time. If Covid becomes seasonal and HCQ were a good treatment then I would expect that long term way more would be produced annually.  

What would keep YOU from producing more right now? Human capital, natural resources, every piece of equipment they use has to be made and put together and "they" have to do that too even though they have more to start with. 

 

Labs and factories etc can ramp up but once they max out whole new ones need built. Things they need to do so will be in short supply. Humans can do a lot but it will take time.

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1 minute ago, Matryoshka said:

But if its main effect as a prophylactic is because it's a zinc ionophore, wouldn't we need a study like this where it's given with zinc.  Because otherwise it's not very useful...  Almost all of the studies I've seen where it's not that useful, it's alone or with azithromycin (still not sure why that's a combo), but even though I know it has been combined with zinc in practice, I haven't seen any studies.

 

I didn't catch that. Thanks

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10 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

But if its main effect as a prophylactic is because it's a zinc ionophore, wouldn't we need a study like this where it's given with zinc.  Because otherwise it's not very useful...  Almost all of the studies I've seen where it's not that useful, it's alone or with azithromycin (still not sure why that's a combo), but even though I know it has been combined with zinc in practice, I haven't seen any studies.

I would love to see a study where they tried zinc with various ionophores, including ones with lower risk than HCQ, since it seems that some of the same medical issues that make people high-risk for Covid (like heart disease) also make them not good candidates for HCQ (hence the reason a lot of these observational studies end up with the higher risk patients in the nonHCQ group).

 

Edited by Corraleno
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10 minutes ago, frogger said:

Yes, but that happened over time. If Covid becomes seasonal and HCQ were a good treatment then I would expect that long term way more would be produced annually.  

What would keep YOU from producing more right now? 

 

Interesting question.

What are the needed raw ingredients?

 

 

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I have tried to look at at least most of the HCQ trials and haven’t seen one prove it effective. I’ve seen several people on here say multiple times that it is in fact effective but have not seen them link a study. Please put me out of my misery and link them - I just can’t search one more thing right now! Have mercy!

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7 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

I would love to see a study where they tried zinc with various ionophores, including ones with lower risk than HCQ, since it seems that some of the same medical issues that make people high-risk for Covid (like heart disease) also make them not good candidates for HCQ (hence the reason a lot of these observational studies end up with the higher risk patients in the nonHCQ group).

 

 

Yes.  That would be helpful. Though I am not sure all that many people want to try Quercitin and/or EGCG as prophylaxis and then go get themselves deliberately exposed for an experiment. 

Though maybe ZOE tracks that sort of thing?  If so I’d join ZOE.  @Laura Corin does ZOE just track symptoms or also supplements etc? 

 

I would like to see in Vivo studies showing that Quercitin works as a zinc ionophore in live people. I’d be much more happy with Quercitin if I had such studies even if not directly related to CV19. 

Currently I only have the one 2014 in vitro study.

I’m going with it because it is what I have as a study — and what I can readily get as an otc supplement.   And because it became the MATH / Marik protocol top suggestion for an ionophore where HCQ isn’t feasible. 

 

 

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40 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

Yes.  That would be helpful. Though I am not sure all that many people want to try Quercitin and/or EGCG as prophylaxis and then go get themselves deliberately exposed for an experiment. 

Though maybe ZOE tracks that sort of thing?  If so I’d join ZOE.  @Laura Corin does ZOE just track symptoms or also supplements etc? 

 

I would like to see in Vivo studies showing that Quercitin works as a zinc ionophore in live people. I’d be much more happy with Quercitin if I had such studies even if not directly related to CV19. 

Currently I only have the one 2014 in vitro study.

I’m going with it because it is what I have as a study — and what I can readily get as an otc supplement.   And because it became the MATH / Marik protocol top suggestion for an ionophore where HCQ isn’t feasible. 

 

 

Zoe asked me once about supplements. It probably does that with new recruits now. They haven't come out with research on that yet, so far as I remember.

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this is from a Dutch article run through google translate.  Apparently they think they may have found a genetic fault linked to more serious illness in young people.

Researchers at Radboud university medical center in Nijmegen have discovered a defect in the genetic code of a number of corona patients, which explains why some young people become seriously ill from the coronavirus. They hope that other severely ill young corona patients can be treated better with the help of the new insights.

The researchers discovered the role of the TLR7 gene when a Maastricht UMC + doctor noted that two young brothers were seriously ill from Covid-19 and had to go on a ventilator. One of them died from the effects of the disease, the other recovered. It is exceptional that young people get sick from corona, most of them only have mild complaints.

"In such a case, you immediately wonder whether genetic factors are involved," says geneticist Alexander Hoischen of Radboud university medical center. "That two brothers get so seriously ill may be a coincidence, but it is also possible that a birth defect played a role."

Essential gene
The research team mapped part of the genes of the brothers, especially the genes that play a role in the immune system. Soon a gene on the X chromosome came into view: TLR7. That gene helps to recognize pathogens and activate the immune system. The two brothers were found to lack some letters in the genetic code.

The team concluded that the TLR7 gene is apparently essential to detect the coronavirus. Hoischen: "It seems that the virus can just go ahead because the immune system is not notified that the virus has invaded. That could be the reason for the serious course of the disease."

Men are extra sensitive to the error in the genetic code. Women with two X chromosomes also have two copies of the TLR7 gene. Since men only have one, there is no second gene that can take over the role of the defective TLR7 as it does in women.

Two more brothers
During the study, the researchers unexpectedly had to deal with two more seriously ill brothers under 35 years of age who had to go to ventilator on the ICU. They recovered from the disease. They also found something wrong with the TLR7 gene. "This time we saw no loss of letters, but a single typo," says Hoischen. "The effect is the same, because these brothers also make too little effective TLR7."

The team also investigated what exactly the gene does when it is activated. It then produces interferons, special proteins that are essential in the defense against viral infections. These are especially important with corona, says Cas van der Made, a doctor in training at the department of internal medicine. "From the literature we know that this virus has tricks to reduce the production of interferons by immune cells."

Tests showed that the immune cells of patients without properly functioning TLR7 hardly respond and that hardly any extra interferons were produced. The virus seemed to have free rein.

The discovery of the researchers at Raboudumc may help treat other critically ill corona patients. The substance interferon can be given to patients as therapy. It is currently being investigated whether this actually helps with treatment.

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The thing that doesn’t quite add up for me with the HCQ being effective early on is that we know that there are many that are either asymptomatic or have very minimal symptoms, as already mentioned up thread. So without a proper trial how can we be sure that the anecdotal accounts of it being so effective in early disease aren’t just that it was given to people who weren’t going to get bad symptoms anyway? 

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20 minutes ago, TCB said:

The thing that doesn’t quite add up for me with the HCQ being effective early on is that we know that there are many that are either asymptomatic or have very minimal symptoms, as already mentioned up thread. So without a proper trial how can we be sure that the anecdotal accounts of it being so effective in early disease aren’t just that it was given to people who weren’t going to get bad symptoms anyway? 

 

I agree. It makes sense to me that it should be given early since it is supposed to actually fight the virus keeping down replication. By the time you get really serious you are also treating the symptoms from an over reactive immune system. 

The problem of course is that most people get better without a drug also. I still haven't found a double blind (especially important since people really want to confirm their bias) study with a good control group that actually includes the zinc component. 

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2 minutes ago, square_25 said:

Exactly. You can't really deal with confirmation bias without double blind studies. Especially for an illness that doesn't, in fact, kill most people (if it did, the effect might be strong enough that you could see it despite this.) 

But I wonder why no one chooses to add the zinc component when that is what the uproar is about? 

 

I really don't know. I'm just curious.

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I certainly don’t think it should be mandatory — so that anyone who feels uncomfortable with it would not take it.

If supplies are limited maybe it should first be offered to HCW, LEO, teachers etc.    especially people who would be at risk from CV19, but not particularly at risk from HCQ.  But I think if it can be an over the counter medicine in Venezuela, it can be in USA too.  I don’t think Americans are hugely more stupid than Venezuelans.   Idk.  Maybe Americans are.

anyway, I think it’s time to stop conflating limited supplies issues with doesn’t help at all issues. Like for masks. 

 

And a bunch of pages back here people seemed seemed worried that suggesting vitamin D above 1000 iu or so would result in people dying like flies from vitamin D overdose.  

Nm . I am feeling cranky.  

I’d like to see things like schools be able to open safely and I think a reliable ionophore plus zinc plus D plus Selenium plus ... could help us to do that. 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, square_25 said:

I think if this medication had a really strong effect, we'd know by now. Trust me, no one wants to hide an effective medication, especially since it's not like it's something you can patent. 

I would love to be able to see the information that has convinced some of the posters on this page though. I saw an article early on by a Dr in NY I think, who was giving it to all his patients but haven’t seen further details, although I think his name is still mentioned. 

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8 minutes ago, square_25 said:

I think if this medication had a really strong effect, we'd know by now. Trust me, no one wants to hide an effective medication, especially since it's not like it's something you can patent. 

 

Perhaps that’s exactly why many do want to hide it.  It’s old and not patented. 

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2 minutes ago, square_25 said:

I don't think this situation is benefiting anyone. And given the number of people who would need to be trying to hide it (like, every hospital in the country has tried it!!), that's just a completely implausible theory. 

 

From what I know about zinc plus ionophore, by time people are sick enough to be in hospital it is too late for HCQ plus zinc to help much. 

 

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21 minutes ago, Pen said:

I certainly don’t think it should be mandatory — so that anyone who feels uncomfortable with it would not take it.

If supplies are limited maybe it should first be offered to HCW, LEO, teachers etc.    especially people who would be at risk from CV19, but not particularly at risk from HCQ.  But I think if it can be an over the counter medicine in Venezuela, it can be in USA too.  I don’t think Americans are hugely more stupid than Venezuelans.   Idk.  Maybe Americans are.

anyway, I think it’s time to stop conflating limited supplies issues with doesn’t help at all issues. Like for masks. 

 

And a bunch of pages back here people seemed seemed worried that suggesting vitamin D above 1000 iu or so would result in people dying like flies from vitamin D overdose.  

Nm . I am feeling cranky.  

I’d like to see things like schools be able to open safely and I think a reliable ionophore plus zinc plus D plus Selenium plus ... could help us to do that. 

 

 

I really do wish there were an easy answer and I would love to see a good study done that didn't leave out the zinc or give it to patients whose immune systems are already in melt down.

I would love to see it work and I do think people should have it available but I have also seen so many miracle cures flung out there with doctors with only observational evidence from a limited number of patients that it makes me cranky that I and my friend struggle to get our drugs that they promote when we KNOW it helps us and they don't really have strong evidence it helps others.

 

 

 

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20 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

Perhaps that’s exactly why many do want to hide it.  It’s old and not patented. 

But that doesn't seem likely given the attention that dexamethasone has been getting. And a day or two ago I read something about prednisone possibly being effective. They're old, cheap drugs, too.

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49 minutes ago, Pen said:

But I think if it can be an over the counter medicine in Venezuela, it can be in USA too.  I don’t think Americans are hugely more stupid than Venezuelans.   Idk.  Maybe Americans are.

We don't have to be as stupid to do more harm, simply because there are twelve times as many of us.

 

I found my pulmonologist visit less than helpful. Now taking more medicines to less effect. *sigh*

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I would love to see research into other ionophores. For example, here is a study that tested hinokitiol (extracted from cypress) and pyrithione (extract from Persian shallots) in conjunction with zinc and found that both combinations were effective in inhibiting proliferation of rhinovirus, coxsackievirus, and mengovirus.  https://jvi.asm.org/content/83/1/58

This study found that quercetin and Epigallocatechin-gallate (the major catechin in tea) were effective zinc ionophores: https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/jf5014633

Ivermectin is also supposed to function as a zinc ionophore — I thought there was going to be a study on ivermectin, did that ever happen?

There was a lot of talk a few months ago about a quercetin trial that I think was sponsored by researchers in Montreal but was going to take place in China? Anyone know if that study happened and if so, are the results are available?

 

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23 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

I would love to see research into other ionophores. For example, here is a study that tested hinokitiol (extracted from cypress) and pyrithione (extract from Persian shallots) in conjunction with zinc and found that both combinations were effective in inhibiting proliferation of rhinovirus, coxsackievirus, and mengovirus.  https://jvi.asm.org/content/83/1/58

This study found that quercetin and Epigallocatechin-gallate (the major catechin in tea) were effective zinc ionophores: https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/jf5014633

Ivermectin is also supposed to function as a zinc ionophore — I thought there was going to be a study on ivermectin, did that ever happen?

There was a lot of talk a few months ago about a quercetin trial that I think was sponsored by researchers in Montreal but was going to take place in China? Anyone know if that study happened and if so, are the results are available?

 

The ivermectin study is ongoing, you can search clinicaltrials.gov

Some country, Brazil or India maybe, based on what they've seen, was  using HCQ + vitamin D but has now added ivermectin, all cheap readily available drugs/vitamins with few side effects.  Thousands in the military deploying to places where malaria is present have taken HCQ, only side effect is normally GI issues for a percentage of the population.  I saw a study that the heart issues were not related to HCQ but to Coronavirus, and also another study, not at the lower doses you really need of HCQ.

ETA: Brazil, here is their "Covid Kit."

829306857_ScreenShot2020-07-24at5_43_04PM.thumb.png.0c211fac6afc30f1a3007f5b65d8977e.png

Edited by ElizabethB
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I've taken malaria prophylactics (can't remember if it was hcq or not) but found it very very difficult to take.  As in I often vomited right after taking it.  (TMI - sorry.)

I've taken Ivermectin (for parasites).  That too was pretty harsh on the body.  I actually took it for longer than normally prescribed but it's usually prescribed for very short times.  The pharmacist raised her eyebrows very high when she saw how much I was prescribed. 

I take Quercetin regularly.  It isn't hard on my body at all.

ETA:  I take zinc too but I wasn't trying to link Quercetin and zinc.  I just happen to take both.

I would really want studies done before people who aren't knowledgeable about these meds prescribe them.  BTW - the anti-malarial pills were by a specialist in tropical medicine - not by a GP or even just an internal med. doc.  And the Ivermectin was by a doctor who specialized in hard to diagnose and cure conditions.  In other words, neither were just given randomly to see "if it worked".  (Obviously there is a place for experimentation but I think that it is within the confines of a controlled study.)

Edited by Jean in Newcastle
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1 hour ago, square_25 said:

Yeah. I really don't think we should be making HCQ available over the counter. We'll have people with bad side effects, almost certainly. Whatever you think of the studies, practically all the studies agree that there can be side effects with incorrect dosage. 

Well, I didn't say anything about OTC. Just that I would love to see the results of a well done study that involved the actual thing being promoted not pieces and parts of it.

And I understand wanting things to work. 

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1 hour ago, frogger said:

But I wonder why no one chooses to add the zinc component when that is what the uproar is about? 

 

I really don't know. I'm just curious.

Well, I think most of the uproar isn't because of promising theories about HCQ acting in tandem with zinc.  I think most of the enthusiasm for the drug is because the president touted it.  

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I've taken HCQ as a malaria prophylactic myself, and despite experiencing severe nausea, I wouldn't hesitate to take it for Covid if there were good solid randomized clinical trials showing that it is effective. But so far, no one has been able to link even one. IMO, the fact that a few other countries may be using it despite the lack of evidence does not constitute evidence in its favor.

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2 minutes ago, Terabith said:

Well, I think most of the uproar isn't because of promising theories about HCQ acting in tandem with zinc.  I think most of the enthusiasm for the drug is because the president touted it.  

 

I thought so too at first but it seems pointless to keep doing studies with HCQ and no Zinc and that seems to have been replicated already and was a no go.

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6 minutes ago, square_25 said:

Do people actually think Zinc is how it's supposed to work? Because I assume people running these studies aren't stupid. 

 

Have we not been reading the same thread?

And your definition of stupid is? Doctors and researchers do all sorts of stuff and that includes call each other stupid when the disagreeing parties probably have at least above average IQ.  LOL

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1 hour ago, whitehawk said:

We don't have to be as stupid to do more harm, simply because there are twelve times as many of us.

 

Lol!

 

1 hour ago, whitehawk said:

I found my pulmonologist visit less than helpful. Now taking more medicines to less effect. *sigh*

Bummer ☹️

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Well I may have found one for you. It says peer reviewed but an article about it not the actual paper I think.

 

https://www.henryford.com/news/2020/07/hydro-treatment-study

 

ETA Ok it’s kind of old- July 2, also it looked like it said 18% reduction in mortality which I don’t think is as much reduction as Dexamethasone

 

ETA 2 - Just saw a comment that it may not have been well controlled, was observational and many were also given steroids

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26 minutes ago, square_25 said:

Do people actually think Zinc is how it's supposed to work? Because I assume people running these studies aren't stupid. 

 

18 minutes ago, frogger said:

 

Have we not been reading the same thread?

And your definition of stupid is? Doctors and researchers do all sorts of stuff and that includes call each other stupid when the disagreeing parties probably have at least above average IQ.  LOL

Actually, it started because it was effective against SARS, they started looking at things that worked with other similar diseases.

Some people think it may work as a zinc ionophore, but there are other theories about its main mechanism, and it may be doing several things.  People don't always know exactly why a drug works.

Yes, high IQ people can do stupid things, LOL.

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5 minutes ago, TCB said:

Well I may have found one for you. It says peer reviewed but an article about it not the actual paper I think.

 

https://www.henryford.com/news/2020/07/hydro-treatment-study

 

ETA Ok it’s kind of old- July 2, also it looked like it said 18% reduction in mortality which I don’t think is as much reduction as Dexamethasone

 

They aren’t an either this or that.  

Dexamethasone is more useful later in disease course probably not a good idea prophylactic or early.  

HCQ + zinc the opposite.  

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7 minutes ago, TCB said:

Well I may have found one for you. It says peer reviewed but an article about it not the actual paper I think.

 

https://www.henryford.com/news/2020/07/hydro-treatment-study

 

ETA Ok it’s kind of old- July 2, also it looked like it said 18% reduction in mortality which I don’t think is as much reduction as Dexamethasone

 

ETA 2 - Just saw a comment that it may not have been well controlled, was observational and many were also given steroids

The “nonHCQ group” also had a significantly higher median age and were significantly sicker than the HCQ treatment group 

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4 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

They aren’t an either this or that.  

Dexamethasone is more useful later in disease course probably not a good idea prophylactic or early.  

HCQ + zinc the opposite.  

I realize that, it was just an observation about the reduction in mortality. We use dexamethasone for those needing oxygen therapy as well as those needing ventilation.

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