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wuhan - coronavirus

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5 hours ago, Pen said:

Russia

I saw a video which purported to show long ambulance lines, but I didn’t have anyway to know if what I was seeing was legitimate—or even to identify the vehicles as ambulances.

 

I can try to poke around in some Russian language news. The official newspapers are state propaganda, though, I think...

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On 4/27/2020 at 11:52 AM, RootAnn said:

Sure. Sports Research K2+D3 It comes somehow 'in' or with Coconut Oil. They are supposed to be easier to absorb if taken with a fat, thus I like everything done for me. There are others like this (combined in oil), so don't feel tied to the one I take.

ETA:  My D level was under 20 in December. I started taking these right after getting my lab results. I was supposed to have my level checked again in March but didn't. I'm thinking about doing a home test (mail order lab) to see where it is now & check if I should take 10,000 IU/day or stick with 5,000 IU/day. Haven't decided yet.

Thanks so much!

Taking one pill will be much easier than the three I'm taking now. Once my current bottles are gone, I'll be rocking the combo pill. 🙂

On 4/27/2020 at 5:19 PM, Pen said:

 

I think your question is good and I am reviewing this for myself currently as I raised how much D3 I am taking .  If you or anyone else would like me to share information as I go, let me know.  

I use a Life Extension SuperK which combines K1 and K2, plus some extra K2-4 from Thorne.  I have not determined an amount balance. 

By and large both D3 and K2 are taken in micrograms, not milligrams.   (There’s a bit of an exception in Japan for some mg use of vitamin K.)

There is more than one type of K2 (quite a lot of types exist, but mainly focus is on 2 types: K2-4 and K2-7).

 

MK4 and MK7 are both forms of natural vitamin K2. MK4 stops and reverse bone loss, grows strongerbones and reduces fractures more than 80%. MK7has never been shown to reduce fractures. The use of MK4 is supported by more than 28 clinical trials with over 7000 volunteers.

I would love for you to share info as you go!

One thing I've come to believe over time is that Vit D is so much more important than was previously thought but the research I do is "surface" stuff.  I simply don't have the mental fortitude to wade through medical studies/papers so I'm never sure if the things I read are accurate or just woo-woo.

 

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@TCB@wathe

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52476128

“Coronavirus: Why so many US nurses are out of work

And even as some parts of the US are talking of desperate shortages in nursing staff, elsewhere in the country many nurses are being told to stay at home without pay.

That is because American healthcare companies are looking to cut costs as they struggle to generate revenue during the coronavirus crisis.

"Nurses are being called heroes," Mariya Buxton says, clearly upset. "But I just really don't feel like a hero right now because I'm not doing my part."

Ms Buxton is a paediatric nurse in St Paul, Minnesota, but has been asked to stay at home.

At the unit at which Ms Buxton worked, and at hospitals across most of the country, medical procedures that are not deemed to be urgent have been stopped. That has meant a massive loss of income.

While she has, until now, retained health insurance benefits through the company she worked for, Ms Buxton is not being paid her salary while she is off work.

"People would always say to me, being a nurse you'll never have to worry about having a job. And here I am, newly 40 years old and unemployed for the first time since I started working," she says.

... And revenue generation for hospitals has not just been affected by bans on elective surgery.

"I was scheduled to work 120 hours for the month of April. But about halfway through March, I looked at the schedule and all of my hours had been cut," says Dr Shaina Parks.

"I didn't receive a phone call or an email or anything. They were just gone. It was an extremely uncomfortable feeling," she says.

Dr Parks is a specialist in emergency medicine based in Michigan, but who works at hospitals in Ohio and Oklahoma.

The departments she works at are still open, but patients are not coming in.

"I have been doing some telemedicine this past month to make a little bit of the income that I lost," says Dr Parks. 

"And what I'm hearing from almost every single patient is that they really don't want to go to hospitals because they're afraid of the coronavirus."

That sentiment has left emergency departments across the country far quieter than normal.

"If we're not seeing patients, then we're not generating any sort of billable money, and while we're paid hourly, we also earn money by the number of patients that we see per hour."

Dr Parks says she has been considering filing for unemployment benefits to try to help make student loan repayments.

While it may seem curious that so many American medical staff are taking pay cuts or have lost work during a pandemic, healthcare managers say the huge financial pressures mean they have had little choice.

"We have seen our revenues decline by 60%, just about overnight," says Claudio Fort, CEO of a hospital in Vermont that is losing around $8m (£6.4m) a month.

It is why, he says, they have had to furlough around 150 staff, just under 10% of the hospital workforce.”

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7 hours ago, StellaM said:

A good article summarising what we know so far:

https://insidestory.org.au/what-we-are-learning-from-the-coronavirus/

Thanks for sharing. 

I wonder how thorough previous viruses were investigated. Unless this SARS-Cov-2 virus is thoroughly investigated other than only assuming it is from bats, we can expect COVID-more-numbers and other types of viruses from now on. 

As a person living in China for the first 30 years of my life, I think the world needs to get INTO Wuhan to investigate. However, China does not allow it. And I don't understand why the world lets China get away with this. 

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15 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

@TCB@wathe

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52476128

“Coronavirus: Why so many US nurses are out of work

And even as some parts of the US are talking of desperate shortages in nursing staff, elsewhere in the country many nurses are being told to stay at home without pay.

That is because American healthcare companies are looking to cut costs as they struggle to generate revenue during the coronavirus crisis.

"Nurses are being called heroes," Mariya Buxton says, clearly upset. "But I just really don't feel like a hero right now because I'm not doing my part."

Ms Buxton is a paediatric nurse in St Paul, Minnesota, but has been asked to stay at home.

At the unit at which Ms Buxton worked, and at hospitals across most of the country, medical procedures that are not deemed to be urgent have been stopped. That has meant a massive loss of income.

While she has, until now, retained health insurance benefits through the company she worked for, Ms Buxton is not being paid her salary while she is off work.

"People would always say to me, being a nurse you'll never have to worry about having a job. And here I am, newly 40 years old and unemployed for the first time since I started working," she says.

... And revenue generation for hospitals has not just been affected by bans on elective surgery.

"I was scheduled to work 120 hours for the month of April. But about halfway through March, I looked at the schedule and all of my hours had been cut," says Dr Shaina Parks.

"I didn't receive a phone call or an email or anything. They were just gone. It was an extremely uncomfortable feeling," she says.

Dr Parks is a specialist in emergency medicine based in Michigan, but who works at hospitals in Ohio and Oklahoma.

The departments she works at are still open, but patients are not coming in.

"I have been doing some telemedicine this past month to make a little bit of the income that I lost," says Dr Parks. 

"And what I'm hearing from almost every single patient is that they really don't want to go to hospitals because they're afraid of the coronavirus."

That sentiment has left emergency departments across the country far quieter than normal.

"If we're not seeing patients, then we're not generating any sort of billable money, and while we're paid hourly, we also earn money by the number of patients that we see per hour."

Dr Parks says she has been considering filing for unemployment benefits to try to help make student loan repayments.

While it may seem curious that so many American medical staff are taking pay cuts or have lost work during a pandemic, healthcare managers say the huge financial pressures mean they have had little choice.

"We have seen our revenues decline by 60%, just about overnight," says Claudio Fort, CEO of a hospital in Vermont that is losing around $8m (£6.4m) a month.

It is why, he says, they have had to furlough around 150 staff, just under 10% of the hospital workforce.”

This isn't happening to nurses in Canadian hospitals - that I know of anyway, and it would be news if it did.  Nurses at our hospital who are on services that are quiet now being "redeployed" - to Covid clinics, to nursing homes, to emerg, to ICU (commensurate with skill set).   Hospitals here are publicy funded,and funding has not been cut.  Funding formula is complex, but roughly based on catchment area/population rather than per visit.  Socialized medicine has its issues, but during a pandemic it shines.

Most doctors, on the other hand, are generally paid by the visit and are treated as independent contractors within the hospital.  Income has definitely taken a big hit.  Especially frustrating to be on the front line taking more risk, but earning significantly less. 

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2 hours ago, Wildcat said:

Thanks so much!

Taking one pill will be much easier than the three I'm taking now. Once my current bottles are gone, I'll be rocking the combo pill. 🙂

I would love for you to share info as you go!

One thing I've come to believe over time is that Vit D is so much more important than was previously thought but the research I do is "surface" stuff.  I simply don't have the mental fortitude to wade through medical studies/papers so I'm never sure if the things I read are accurate or just woo-woo.

 

 

The D3/K2-7 Sports Research combo may be more expensive than you need if you don’t need a vegan form.  

And it would probably be a good idea to also have some K2 in MK-4 version.  

Also to eat something that has some vitamin E in it (such as sunflower seeds is an easy snack that I use for this), at least a little bit, maybe not daily needed, but frequently.  And food from time to time with oil soluble preformed vitamin A also helps keep a balance among the ADEK group of oil soluble vitamins.  

The 4 vitamins, A D E K , kept in balance with each other seems to be what keeps calcium and other minerals from causing problems that people worry about when they feel worried about exceeding the RDA of D3. 

Magnesium is one of several important vitamin D cofactor .  Most people think of magnesium. There are others also! 

I recommend reading this page on vitamin D cofactors:

https://vitamindwiki.com/Vitamin+D+Cofactors+in+a+nutshell

 

 

Edited by Pen
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I wish we had knowledge of Vitamin D levels of many people who have been found to be asymptomatic carriers of SARS-CoV-2 in addition to knowing D levels for the people who have been having strokes types of problems. 

It also might be helpful to know levels for CV19 sick/dead people in Ecuador. 

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1 hour ago, Pen said:

 

The D3/K2-7 Sports Research combo may be more expensive than you need if you don’t need a vegan form.  

And it would probably be a good idea to also have some K2 in MK-4 version.  

Also to eat something that has some vitamin E in it (such as sunflower seeds is an easy snack that I use for this), at least a little bit, maybe not daily needed, but frequently.  And food from time to time with oil soluble preformed vitamin A also helps keep a balance among the ADEK group of oil soluble vitamins.  

The 4 vitamins, A D E K , kept in balance with each other seems to be what keeps calcium and other minerals from causing problems that people worry about when they feel worried about exceeding the RDA of D3. 

Magnesium is one of several important vitamin D cofactor .  Most people think of magnesium. There are others also! 

I recommend reading this page on vitamin D cofactors:

https://vitamindwiki.com/Vitamin+D+Cofactors+in+a+nutshell

 

 

 

Thanks for this.

I already take magnesium so hopefully I'm OK there.

I'll head off to read the link about the cofactors.  I was trying to find something about the A/D/E/K stuff when I saw you mention it way back in this thread but I didn't know the term to use so I didn't turn up much of anything useful. Thanks for helping to educate me!

 

 

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Israel update: number of active cases is coming down fast, with recoveries outnumbering those ill.  Testing capacity is exceeding demand and so authorities are going to start random testing in some hard-hit areas.  Positivity rate is somewhere between 1 and 2%.  The fatality rate is running at about 1.3%.  The lockdown is starting to lift and today we were able to go more than 500 meters from the house to exercise.  

The big debate currently is when and how to reopen schools.  It is possible that some of the younger grades will go back next week but the proposed blueprint seems pretty unworkable.  A report by an influential Israeli epidemiological institute was released today; the researchers concluded that children with corona are probably slightly less infectious than adults but still infectious.  

Health officials and other medical people are emphatically reminding the public at every opportunity that this is not over, there will be more infections as everyone goes back to work and school, and we have to continue to be vigilant.  At the same time, there has been a very real problem over the last month with people being afraid to go to the hospital or take their kids to the doctor even for serious matters, so there is starting to be some outreach trying to reassure folks that they won't catch coronavirus at the hospital or doctor's office.  

There is an interesting debate brewing about the cellphone surveillance program.  At the outset of the crisis, the Cabinet empowered the Israeli security services to essentially go into coronavirus patients' phones to locate where they had been during the previous two weeks and notify their contacts.  Every day this map of places where recent patients visited during the last 14 days is updated.  This program has arguably been quite effective in controlling the virus's spread but it's also obviously a tremendous incursion into privacy rights and so it was approved only as a temporary emergency measure.  Now the Supreme Court has said that for the surveillance program to continue, it has to be enacted into law by the legislature.  It's not at all clear what's going to happen next.  The PM might try to get a law passed (or not), and the legislature might pass something (or not). The government released an optional app for contact tracing a while back, but hardly anybody downloaded it.  It's possible that entry into some public spaces -- specifically, malls -- might become contingent on downloading some sort of tracking app for at least the duration of that visit.  

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2 hours ago, Wildcat said:

 

Thanks for this.

I already take magnesium so hopefully I'm OK there.

I'll head off to read the link about the cofactors.  I was trying to find something about the A/D/E/K stuff when I saw you mention it way back in this thread but I didn't know the term to use so I didn't turn up much of anything useful. Thanks for helping to educate me!

 

 

 

Sure thing.  I hope maybe others will be interested too.

AFAIK magnesium, boron etc are actually cofactors for Vitamin D to work properly — used in various pathways that D is involved in (which is huge—apparently all or nearly all body cells have D receptors according to what I have read, though some have more than others). 

OTOH the other 3 fat soluble vitamins have to do with internal regulation of particularly calcium metabolism, but possibly other important things too.  

They can be kept in balance by being deficient in all of them, or by being sufficient in all...  Natural meat sources probably used by humans back into pre history would probably have had A D K, and gathered seeds would have had E.  AFAIK. Plus extra D would have come from ability to metabolize it from cholesterol plus sunshine.  (Meats alone like liver tend to be overbalanced toward A, but maybe not fish and blubber. ) 

K2 in form of MK-4 is clearly important for bones and calcium metabolism and also brain use. Hence I have an extra bottle of just K2 as MK-4.  

The K2 in the combo you are looking at is the 7 form not the 4 form. The only combo D3/K2 I know of with the 4 form is made by Thorne, but I think it is too expensive for the amount of D3. That doesn’t mean there aren’t others, just that it is the only one I know of.  And I tend to get most of my supplements from just a few companies that I feel are reliable, rather than to start a whole research project into other companies for each supplement. I do use the Thorne  K2-4 oil drops where one bottle is expensive, but will last me a whole year. NOW has much less expensive MK-4 in capsules, but I don’t think it is as potent, either in mcg or subjectively how I feel. 

K1 is a separate issue.  I tend to bruise easily and  K1 is helpful for me with that.

 I don’t know how K1, which helps blood ability to clot properly, fits with Coagulation issues with CV19/SARS2.  I think there have been issues noted for SARS2 both with too much clotting and also possibly with some bleeds (though not to an Ebola hemorrhagic virus sort of degree iirc) — though there now seem to be far more discussions and evidence of too much clotting as a frequent problem, rather than frequent hemorrhagic issues with SARS2.  Without more research knowledge, I am trying to give my body what it needs for both good blood flow, arterial health, (D3, magnesium, K2 as Mk-4)  and ability to clot when appropriate (K1). 

 

Edited by Pen
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I mean, I’m glad a ton of these didn’t overflow, but ugh on the cost and time and diversion of equipment and personnel.

https://www.militarytimes.com/news/coronavirus/2020/04/29/many-field-hospitals-went-largely-unused-will-be-shut-down/
 

Seems like the current quantities are within response capacity for many areas.  

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Our field hospital is unused but staying up for now. The county built it on its own so doesn't see any harm in leaving it there for now. 

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Interesting too, on all the vitamin d discussions, how much of this is correlated with low vitamin d levels in the elderly and sick population anyway because they’re bed bound or live a less healthy, active lifestyle anyway? This has always been something I’ve wondered because many studies have a tough time controlling well for this variable, it’s not a new issue.  But I do think additional d may not be as protective as already being healthy and without underlying conditions that might make you low in d or not outside much!

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The IHME model predicts 1266 deaths today. 

Ha. Ha. Ha. That's me laughing without mirth. 

You'd think the idea of "symmetric vs non-symmetric projections" would be an abstruse and merely academic one, right? Well, here, it's directly affecting lives... 

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15 hours ago, ElizabethB said:

@Matryoshka
Please let us know what is going on in Russia Covid wise and which, if any, are reliable news sources.

😂 I'm so sorry, but the only thing even vaguely Russian about me is my username, which I took on a whim because I could use this cute avatar of Matryoshka dolls...  I speak German and Spanish, but not a lick of Russian, nor have I ever been there or know anything about their news sources other than what the media here says...

I know there are at least a couple of other posters here who do speak Russian and/or lived there, but I'm blanking on exactly who they all are...

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crosspost

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/php/cooling-center.html

"COVID-19 and Cooling Centers

Interim guidance to reduce the risk of introducing and transmitting SARS COV-2 (the agent responsible for causing COVID-19 disease) in cooling centers.

Who this guidance is for: Federal, state, local, and tribal jurisdictions in the United States considering opening or operating cooling centers during the COVID-19 pandemic.

Considerations and Potential Intervention Strategies

Utility Assistance

Consider implementing or expanding programs that provide utility assistance, such as the low-income home energy assistance program (LIHEAP) or similar methods that provide financial assistance for home air conditioner use. A temporary ban on utility shut-offs during heat waves would allow people to continue using home air conditioning. This strategy could lower the number of people utilizing cooling centers.

Staff and Volunteers

Plan for staff and volunteer absences. Develop flexible attendance and sick-leave policies. Staff (and volunteers) may need to stay home when they are sick, caring for a sick household member, or caring for their children during school dismissals. Identify critical job functions and positions, and plan for alternative coverage by cross-training cooling center staff.

Screening and Alternative Sites for Symptomatic and Asymptomatic Individuals

If resources are available, consider implementing verbal screening or temperature checks before admitting visitors to the cooling center. If possible, provide alternative cooling sites for those showing symptoms of COVID-19 (i.e., fever, cough, shortness of breath). This may be separate rooms within cooling centers or a space that can be used to accommodate visitors with symptoms and separate them from others. Designate an alternate site, or a separate room and bathroom (if available) for visitors with mild illness who remain at the cooling center. Be prepared to contact emergency officials (call 911) in the case of severe illness requiring medical assistance.

Physical Distancing

Maintain social (physical) distancing within cooling centers, ideally at least six feet between individuals. Consider separation of furniture and creating spaces for individual family units (families who live together do not need to maintain physical distancing in a cooling center). In larger cooling center facilities, it may be possible to provide adequate space for social distancing among visitors. Smaller cooling centers can limit the number of visitors, in accordance with local guidelines that limit the size of gatherings. This could lower capacity, so consider setting up a greater number of smaller cooling centers. If a lack of potential cooling center sites arises, emergency alternatives such as using parked air-conditioned buses can be utilized. Communities may also partner with closed businesses, such as movie theaters, as alternative cooling sites.

Air Filtration

It may not be possible to locate cooling centers in buildings with high ventilation capacity similar to healthcare facilities. If possible cooling centers should be equipped with air exchange systems, and be located in buildings with tall ceilings. Utilize the highest efficiency filters that are compatible with the cooling center’s existing HVAC system, and adopt “clean-to-dirty” directional airflows. If resources allow, ceiling fans with upward airflow rotation combined with upper-air ultraviolet germicidal irradiation (UVGI) disinfection systems can be utilized. When conditions allow (low humidity), shaded outdoor spaces with cross-draft airflow augmented by evaporative coolers may provide a safer alternative.

Cleaning

Follow the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) cleaning and disinfection guidelines for community facilities, and cleaning facilities if someone is sick. Because even individuals with no symptoms can still transmit the virus, and the virus can survive for several days on non-porous surfaces, it is important to continue routine cleaning and disinfection (every day if possible) with a focus on high touch surfaces, including those in common areas and bathrooms.

Communication

Enhance communication about COVID-19 onsite. Use health messages and materials developed by credible public health sources, such as your local and state public health departments or CDC. Read more about everyday preventive actions. Share or post COVID-19 posters and CDC Fact Sheets and keep your visitors informed about public health recommendations to prevent disease spread. Messaging may include:

  • Posting signs at entrances and in strategic places providing instruction on hand hygiene, respiratory hygiene, cough etiquette, and cloth face coverings.
  • Providing educational materials about COVID-19 for non-English speakers, as needed.
  • Encouraging ill staff and volunteers to stay home (or be sent home if they develop symptoms while at the facility), to prevent transmitting the infection to others.

Identify and address potential language, cultural, and disability barriers associated with communicating COVID-19 information to workers, volunteers, and those visiting cooling centers. Learn more about reaching people of diverse languages and cultures.

Prevention Supplies

If available, provide COVID-19 prevention supplies onsite at cooling centers. Have supplies on hand for staff, volunteers, and visitors, such as soap, alcohol-based hand sanitizers that contain at least 60% alcohol, tissues, and trash baskets. Visitors and staff should wear a cloth face covering, or if supplies are available, be given a clean disposable facemaskpdf icon, even if they are not showing any symptoms. Cloth face coverings should not be placed on young children under age 2, anyone who has trouble breathing, or is unconscious, incapacitated or otherwise unable to remove the mask without assistance. Place posters that encourage hand hygiene to help stop the spread at the entrance to the facility, at sinks in restrooms, and in other areas where they are likely to be seen. If water bottles are distributed at the cooling center, ensure visitors to not share bottles or glasses."

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8 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

 

I know there are at least a couple of other posters here who do speak Russian and/or lived there, but I'm blanking on exactly who they all are..

8FillTheHeart's daughter

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This is why you can't just slap together a mechanical pump with a balloon and call it a vent. Or assume all vents are equal. Or have politicians buy vents without consulting anyone. Or rely on China.

Quote

 

LONDON — Senior British doctors have warned that 250 ventilators the United Kingdom bought from China risk causing "significant patient harm, including death," if they are used in hospitals, according to a letter seen by NBC News.

The doctors said the machines had a problematic oxygen supply, could not be cleaned properly, had an unfamiliar design and a confusing instruction manual, and were built for use in ambulances, not hospitals.

The British case is not an isolated one, and it comes as a stark example of a procurement problem that has plagued many countries as the coronavirus has spread throughout the world.

"I'd like to thank the Chinese government for their support in securing that capacity," Michael Gove, a senior member of Prime Minister Boris Johnson's government, said at a briefing that day.

But nine days later, a group of senior doctors and medical managers issued a grave warning about 250 ventilators that they had received, the Shangrila 510 model made by Beijing Aeonmed Co. Ltd., one of China's major ventilator manufacturers.

"We believe that if used, significant patient harm, including death, is likely," according to an April 13 letter seen by NBC News. "We look forward to the withdrawal and replacement of these ventilators with devices better able to provide intensive care ventilation for our patients."

The doctors said that the ventilator's oxygen supply was "variable and unreliable" and that its build quality was "basic." Its fabric case could not be cleaned properly — essential when fighting a highly infectious virus — and it arrived with a "non-E.U." oxygen connection hose.

As well as these serious concerns about the quality of the ventilators, they said part of the reason they were unsafe was because the devices were unfamiliar to British doctors and unsuitable for use in the current crisis.

 

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/british-doctors-warn-chinese-ventilators-could-kill-if-used-hospitals-n1194046

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54 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

😂 I'm so sorry, but the only thing even vaguely Russian about me is my username, which I took on a whim because I could use this cute avatar of Matryoshka dolls...  I speak German and Spanish, but not a lick of Russian, nor have I ever been there or know anything about their news sources other than what the media here says...

I know there are at least a couple of other posters here who do speak Russian and/or lived there, but I'm blanking on exactly who they all are...

I speak and read Russian, lol. And I did rather assume you did given your name!! 

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I will admit that I don't follow Russian media, though. Anything anyone wants me to read I can read, though. But I would tend to believe nothing published in a Russian paper... 

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5 minutes ago, square_25 said:

I speak and read Russian, lol. And I did rather assume you did given your name!! 

I am jealous - Russian has such great literature, and I hear it's hard to translate with all the nuances. But translation it wI'll have to be for me! Lol.

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2 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

I am jealous - Russian has such great literature, and I hear it's hard to translate with all the nuances. But translation it wI'll have to be for me! Lol.

I've translated three books from Russian! I actually think it's less the nuance and more the fact that it's a language with cases, so it can be put together in any order. So yeah, I guess that does create emphases that you can't replicate in English. 

The advantages of English are actually its nuanced, giant vocabulary. You can kind of make up for the issues of order via careful word choice. 

Edited by square_25
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Ok, I still do not get the discrepencies in deaths.  I've been tracking Georgia.  So its pop is approx 10.6 million.  They have tested 149,044.  As of today they have 26,237 positives.  1,184 in ICU, 5,186 hospitalized ( I am assuming the ICU is included in this number as well.) and 1, 1131 deaths.

Texas has approx 29 million people.  We have tested 330, 300 people.  We have 28, 087 positives.  1,686 hospitalized and 782 fatalities.   

Why in the world does Georgia have so many more hospitalized???  

So is it that it is much, much more widespread in Georgia and they haven't tested?  So they should have more like 100,000 positives or something?? I thought our testing was bad.  Georgia's is worse.  Why in the world did they open up?

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Cruise crew https://www.miamiherald.com/news/business/tourism-cruises/article242380421.html
“Cruise companies are allowed to disembark and repatriate people still trapped on ships around the U.S. by private transportation as long as their executives sign an agreement with the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention that holds the companies accountable for the process. They are refusing to do so.

In conversations with the CDC, cruise company officials have complained that arranging private transportation for disembarking crew is “too expensive,” according to a spokesperson for the agency.

The standoff is preventing about 100,000 crew members and some passengers from leaving cruise ships lingering in and around U.S. waters, including dozens of U.S. citizens. Crew members still stuck on board say they feel like an afterthought after watching their companies move mountains to repatriate passengers on charter flights and other private transportation after the industry was shut down on March 13. Only a handful of ships still have passengers on them, including Carnival Corporation’s Coral Princess, floating off of South Florida. 

...

The CDC is currently reviewing plans that cruise companies submitted to the agency on April 22 outlining how they will stop ongoing COVID-19 outbreaks on their ships and safely repatriate crew. On April 23, the CDC sent a list of guidelines to cruise companies describing how they could repatriate people safely using private transportation while the CDC reviews their plans. 

The guidelines say companies must medically screen people before they disembark, ensure people who have been exposed to COVID-19 travel separately from those who have not, provide face coverings, instruct people to stay home for 14 days and practice social distancing. They also must ensure people who disembark do not stay overnight at a hotel, use public transportation, enter airport terminals, take commercial flights, have layovers exceeding eight hours, or have interaction with the public while on their way home. 

For each person who disembarks, the company’s Chief Medical Officer, Chief Compliance Officer, and Chief Executive Officer must sign an agreement to these terms that says, “false or misleading statements or omissions may result in criminal and civil actions for fines, penalties, damages, and imprisonment.”

It’s that last part that cruise companies are unwilling to do for most remaining crew members and passengers, according to spokespeople for Royal Caribbean and Carnival, keeping them on the ships a month and a half after the industry halted operations. Norwegian Cruise Line Holdings Ltd. did not respond to a request for comment. 

Only a small fraction of a cruise ship’s crew — around 100 people — are needed to operate it without passengers.

Whitcomb’s ship, the Celebrity Infinity, offloaded its last passengers in Miami on March 14. After that, crew members were encouraged to take advantage of the amenities normally off limits to them — pools, hot tubs, spas, fitness centers, specialty restaurants — and act as if they were on vacation while they waited for the pandemic to pass. That changed on March 23, when a crew member had to be hospitalized with COVID-19, and the entire crew was instructed not to leave their cabins. Whitcomb and her boyfriend spent the first five days isolated in a crew cabin without a window or fresh air. They were later moved to a passenger cabin with a balcony. 

Whitcomb is desperate to get home. The lack of transparency from the company — which has repeatedly blamed the CDC for her inability to get off the ship — and the isolation are disintegrating her well-being, she said. 

“The ongoing lack of communication and unreliability of the little bit of information I am provided is so very troubling,” she said. “The thought that this nightmare has no ending point, there is no light at the end of the tunnel, is debilitating.”

Royal Caribbean has been distributing weekly crew repatriation updates to crew members. Updates obtained by the Miami Herald from April 17, 23, 26, and 29 say, “The CDC has banned all flights for crew repatriation until a new plan is approved.” A spokesperson for the CDC said the agency never stopped allowing charter flights home for crew members. Royal Caribbean did not respond to a request for comment on this matter.”

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6 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

Cruise crew https://www.miamiherald.com/news/business/tourism-cruises/article242380421.html
“Cruise companies are allowed to disembark and repatriate people still trapped on ships around the U.S. by private transportation as long as their executives sign an agreement with the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention that holds the companies accountable for the process. They are refusing to do so.

In conversations with the CDC, cruise company officials have complained that arranging private transportation for disembarking crew is “too expensive,” according to a spokesperson for the agency.

The standoff is preventing about 100,000 crew members and some passengers from leaving cruise ships lingering in and around U.S. waters, including dozens of U.S. citizens. Crew members still stuck on board say they feel like an afterthought after watching their companies move mountains to repatriate passengers on charter flights and other private transportation after the industry was shut down on March 13. Only a handful of ships still have passengers on them, including Carnival Corporation’s Coral Princess, floating off of South Florida. 

...

The CDC is currently reviewing plans that cruise companies submitted to the agency on April 22 outlining how they will stop ongoing COVID-19 outbreaks on their ships and safely repatriate crew. On April 23, the CDC sent a list of guidelines to cruise companies describing how they could repatriate people safely using private transportation while the CDC reviews their plans. 

The guidelines say companies must medically screen people before they disembark, ensure people who have been exposed to COVID-19 travel separately from those who have not, provide face coverings, instruct people to stay home for 14 days and practice social distancing. They also must ensure people who disembark do not stay overnight at a hotel, use public transportation, enter airport terminals, take commercial flights, have layovers exceeding eight hours, or have interaction with the public while on their way home. 

For each person who disembarks, the company’s Chief Medical Officer, Chief Compliance Officer, and Chief Executive Officer must sign an agreement to these terms that says, “false or misleading statements or omissions may result in criminal and civil actions for fines, penalties, damages, and imprisonment.”

It’s that last part that cruise companies are unwilling to do for most remaining crew members and passengers, according to spokespeople for Royal Caribbean and Carnival, keeping them on the ships a month and a half after the industry halted operations. Norwegian Cruise Line Holdings Ltd. did not respond to a request for comment. 

Only a small fraction of a cruise ship’s crew — around 100 people — are needed to operate it without passengers.

Whitcomb’s ship, the Celebrity Infinity, offloaded its last passengers in Miami on March 14. After that, crew members were encouraged to take advantage of the amenities normally off limits to them — pools, hot tubs, spas, fitness centers, specialty restaurants — and act as if they were on vacation while they waited for the pandemic to pass. That changed on March 23, when a crew member had to be hospitalized with COVID-19, and the entire crew was instructed not to leave their cabins. Whitcomb and her boyfriend spent the first five days isolated in a crew cabin without a window or fresh air. They were later moved to a passenger cabin with a balcony. 

Whitcomb is desperate to get home. The lack of transparency from the company — which has repeatedly blamed the CDC for her inability to get off the ship — and the isolation are disintegrating her well-being, she said. 

“The ongoing lack of communication and unreliability of the little bit of information I am provided is so very troubling,” she said. “The thought that this nightmare has no ending point, there is no light at the end of the tunnel, is debilitating.”

Royal Caribbean has been distributing weekly crew repatriation updates to crew members. Updates obtained by the Miami Herald from April 17, 23, 26, and 29 say, “The CDC has banned all flights for crew repatriation until a new plan is approved.” A spokesperson for the CDC said the agency never stopped allowing charter flights home for crew members. Royal Caribbean did not respond to a request for comment on this matter.”

Of course they don’t want to sign it.  The only reason ruby princess passengers were allowed off in Aus was because they claimed not to have a Coronavirus problem in the documentation.  There was talk of suing but I’m not sure if that’s possible or not.  If they still have money and are financially viable and not bankrupt yet they should be doing everything possible to get the poor crew off safely.  

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12 minutes ago, Happymomof1 said:

Ok, I still do not get the discrepencies in deaths.  I've been tracking Georgia.  So its pop is approx 10.6 million.  They have tested 149,044.  As of today they have 26,237 positives.  1,184 in ICU, 5,186 hospitalized ( I am assuming the ICU is included in this number as well.) and 1, 1131 deaths.

Texas has approx 29 million people.  We have tested 330, 300 people.  We have 28, 087 positives.  1,686 hospitalized and 782 fatalities.   

Why in the world does Georgia have so many more hospitalized???  

So is it that it is much, much more widespread in Georgia and they haven't tested?  So they should have more like 100,000 positives or something?? I thought our testing was bad.  Georgia's is worse.  Why in the world did they open up?

I am similarly perplexed.  By the numbers, Georgia is one of the last states that should be reopening. And they seem to have opened the stuff that I'd think should be opened last, with high possibility of transmission mixed with not particularly 'essential' services, first (nail salons? massage and tattoo parlors? bowling alleys???)

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26 minutes ago, Happymomof1 said:

Ok, I still do not get the discrepencies in deaths.  I've been tracking Georgia.  So its pop is approx 10.6 million.  They have tested 149,044.  As of today they have 26,237 positives.  1,184 in ICU, 5,186 hospitalized ( I am assuming the ICU is included in this number as well.) and 1, 1131 deaths.

Texas has approx 29 million people.  We have tested 330, 300 people.  We have 28, 087 positives.  1,686 hospitalized and 782 fatalities.   

Why in the world does Georgia have so many more hospitalized???  

So is it that it is much, much more widespread in Georgia and they haven't tested?  So they should have more like 100,000 positives or something?? I thought our testing was bad.  Georgia's is worse.  Why in the world did they open up?

Georgia is 36th worst state by health ranking. Texas is 20th. So Texas might not be great but it’s better than Georgia. 

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Wwyd folks?

dds horseriding is talking about opening back up next week for catch up sessions and then returning to normal from then on.

for context restrictions around outdoor exercise are being relaxed

we are on 8 days of zero cases 14 still active, closed international and state borders 

we do still have some returned overseas Australians coming in and being quarantined

the horseriding has been fabulous for her well being and this is the only way we can afford it

its all outdoor air and distancing is a natural part of the horse riding 
 

most of the homeschoolers in the group are being super cautious (they may even turn it down)

cons

shared helmets and reins, curry combs and brushes 

I really wish they had waited till we had 14 days of no cases - I would feel okay then.  It’s only one more week

i have to either take my two boys as well or get family involved in babysitting 

I totally understand that cost is going to be a huge issue for them because they have to keep feeding horses even if no one turns up.  We have already paid for all of last term and missed sessions (I thought it was two but they are saying one - it’s fortnightly and they rearranged to fit around a homeschool camp)

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1 hour ago, Happymomof1 said:

Ok, I still do not get the discrepencies in deaths.  I've been tracking Georgia.  So its pop is approx 10.6 million.  They have tested 149,044.  As of today they have 26,237 positives.  1,184 in ICU, 5,186 hospitalized ( I am assuming the ICU is included in this number as well.) and 1, 1131 deaths.

Texas has approx 29 million people.  We have tested 330, 300 people.  We have 28, 087 positives.  1,686 hospitalized and 782 fatalities.   

Why in the world does Georgia have so many more hospitalized???  

So is it that it is much, much more widespread in Georgia and they haven't tested?  So they should have more like 100,000 positives or something?? I thought our testing was bad.  Georgia's is worse.  Why in the world did they open up?

 

36 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Georgia is 36th worst state by health ranking. Texas is 20th. So Texas might not be great but it’s better than Georgia. 

What Jean said, vitamin D also may be part of it, Georgia has a large Black population that is likely to be vitamin D deficient.  Also, there are different prevalances of different types of disease in different regions, the ones linked to bad Covid outcomes are more prevalent in Georgia.  Here are heat maps of disease.

https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/circoutcomes.116.003350

67133154_ScreenShot2020-04-30at6_37_37PM.thumb.png.2c1ebc3c466fd3d8ef2d66cb7f3eec6a.png

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1 hour ago, ElizabethB said:

 

What Jean said, vitamin D also may be part of it, Georgia has a large Black population that is likely to be vitamin D deficient.  Also, there are different prevalances of different types of disease in different regions, the ones linked to bad Covid outcomes are more prevalent in Georgia.  Here are heat maps of disease.

https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/circoutcomes.116.003350

67133154_ScreenShot2020-04-30at6_37_37PM.thumb.png.2c1ebc3c466fd3d8ef2d66cb7f3eec6a.png


So, basically, there’s more smoking, diabetes, and hypertension in Southern Whites but more blacks are dying due to vitamin D deficiency? In an area that gets a ton of sunlight? That makes no sense.

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47 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:


So, basically, there’s more smoking, diabetes, and hypertension in Southern Whites but more blacks are dying due to vitamin D deficiency? In an area that gets a ton of sunlight? That makes no sense.

The colors do not match up to the same numbers for white vs. black numbers, they just show relative prevalence for each. Red is 40% for blacks for diabetes, red is 19% for whites for diabetes. Hypertension is the opposite type of ratio.

Also, the vitamin D correlations to death are really strong, the Indonesian Study especially shows huge differences in death rates vs. Vitamin D levels.  The New Orleans study states "VDI affects 80-90% of the African American population." (I've seen 75% in other studies, that may be a local number or an updated number, I'm not sure.)

My linked in article shows the Vitamin D correlations in 3 different studies and the causal link in a BJM study of other respiratory diseases, where supplementing with D before the winter season prevented respiratory disease and resulted in less severe outcomes for those who did catch something, it links to all these studies.

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/vitamin-d-covid-correlations-keep-coming-liz-brown/

We have lived all over.  The health of everyone regardless of race was poor in the South.  They ate out a lot more, ate more fried food, and exercised less as a whole than other places we have lived.

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17 minutes ago, ElizabethB said:

The colors do not match up to the same numbers for white vs. black numbers, they just show relative prevalence for each. Red is 40% for blacks for diabetes, red is 19% for whites for diabetes. Hypertension is the opposite type of ratio.

Also, the vitamin D correlations to death are really strong, the Indonesian Study especially shows huge differences in death rates vs. Vitamin D levels.  The New Orleans study states "VDI affects 80-90% of the African American population." (I've seen 75% in other studies, that may be a local number or an updated number, I'm not sure.)

My linked in article shows the Vitamin D correlations in 3 different studies and the causal link in a BJM study of other respiratory diseases, where supplementing with D before the winter season prevented respiratory disease and resulted in less severe outcomes for those who did catch something, it links to all these studies.

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/vitamin-d-covid-correlations-keep-coming-liz-brown/

We have lived all over.  The health of everyone regardless of race was poor in the South.  They ate out a lot more, ate more fried food, and exercised less as a whole than other places we have lived.


Thanks! The scales weren’t clear to me.

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7 hours ago, Arctic Mama said:

Interesting too, on all the vitamin d discussions, how much of this is correlated with low vitamin d levels in the elderly and sick population anyway because they’re bed bound or live a less healthy, active lifestyle anyway? This has always been something I’ve wondered because many studies have a tough time controlling well for this variable, it’s not a new issue.  But I do think additional d may not be as protective as already being healthy and without underlying conditions that might make you low in d or not outside much!

 

Hard to know for sure at this point.  Several of us would like to see figures on D levels for the people who seem not to have underlying conditions yet have had severe outcomes from CV19 

 

Still, having sufficient  D vitamin status is usually a relatively inexpensive thing to remedy and may give a number of benefits.  

 

Sometimes health can be in a downhill spiral.  Low D can result in more ill health which can result in more indoor time, thus yet lower D... and so forth...

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https://amp.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/3082200/coronavirus-may-lurk-deep-lungs-after-patients-recover-study?utm_source=Twitter&__twitter_impression=true
 

post-mortem examination on a woman in China who recovered and tested negative but then died found that she still have virus deep in her lungs.

“However, the researchers found complete strains of the virus in tissue deep in her lungs. They put tissue samples under an electron microscope to confirm the existence of the intact coronavirus enveloped in a crown-like shell.”

 

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With regards to reinfection I think it’s possible that we are seeing several different things happening.

south Korea are seeing a lot of people retest positive but from what I can tell that is most likely linked to the type of testing they use which is good at giving false positives for dead virus. 
 

in China in some cases possibly political pressure to achieve cure and discharge by a certain date may have led to some people being declared cured before being fully recovered.  Particularly given the nasal testing isn’t brilliant at getting every case once’s it’s moved out of the upper respiratory tract. 
 

in some young people with mild cases there seems to be low formation of antibodies.  This might mean reinfection is possible in a shorter time frame.  However they are also lower risk overall.

in some rare cases like a couple in Japan and the one above in China it seems like people do possibly experience a reactivation of the virus.  But there aren’t many cases like this at all so it seems like maybe it’s just a feature of that particularly persons immune system.  Concerning for the individual patient obviously but not so much for the concept of herd immunity.

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5 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Wwyd folks?

dds horseriding is talking about opening back up next week for catch up sessions and then returning to normal from then on.

for context restrictions around outdoor exercise are being relaxed

we are on 8 days of zero cases 14 still active, closed international and state borders 

we do still have some returned overseas Australians coming in and being quarantined

the horseriding has been fabulous for her well being and this is the only way we can afford it

its all outdoor air and distancing is a natural part of the horse riding 
 

most of the homeschoolers in the group are being super cautious (they may even turn it down)

cons

shared helmets and reins, curry combs and brushes 

I really wish they had waited till we had 14 days of no cases - I would feel okay then.  It’s only one more week

i have to either take my two boys as well or get family involved in babysitting 

I totally understand that cost is going to be a huge issue for them because they have to keep feeding horses even if no one turns up.  We have already paid for all of last term and missed sessions (I thought it was two but they are saying one - it’s fortnightly and they rearranged to fit around a homeschool camp)

 

FWIW I would also feel uncomfortable about going but I also think that my reaction would not be entirely rational.  

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1 hour ago, Ausmumof3 said:

 

About a “second wave”?

I think for USA concern is it Could be a worse wave than the current one.  More virulent perhaps and on top of the next winter illnesses season. 

I think Australia is probably in better shape in that regard.  You are going into winter with what looks like a genuine plateau, or even better a significant decline in CV19 problems . 

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43 minutes ago, JennyD said:

 

FWIW I would also feel uncomfortable about going but I also think that my reaction would not be entirely rational.  

Thanks

i think I’m going to message privately and say we’d like to wait one more week but if the situation remains stable we will come from then on.  I may go buy dd her own riding helmet.

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43 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

About a “second wave”?

I think for USA concern is it Could be a worse wave than the current one.  More virulent perhaps and on top of the next winter illnesses season. 

I think Australia is probably in better shape in that regard.  You are going into winter with what looks like a genuine plateau, or even better a significant decline in CV19 problems . 

Well more about the whole thread.  He seems to be saying us won’t have a second wave because you aren’t through the first one.  You have a drawn out plateau but not on a downhill slope yet and with distancing relaxing it will go up again.  I’m just wondering if that’s true.  I think worldometer had approximately 30,000 cases yesterday, which is still around the same for most of the last couple of weeks.

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1 hour ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Well more about the whole thread.  He seems to be saying us won’t have a second wave because you aren’t through the first one.  You have a drawn out plateau but not on a downhill slope yet and with distancing relaxing it will go up again.  I’m just wondering if that’s true.  I think worldometer had approximately 30,000 cases yesterday, which is still around the same for most of the last couple of weeks.

 

I suppose it depends upon how one pictures a wave. If image is a sine wave which goes in regular up and down curves with a first curve needing to be completely done before a second can begin that may be so.

 I picture a wave as being at a beach along the USA Pacific Ocean: in which case it rather often happens that one breaker will be foaming up onto the sand and not yet receding back to sea before a second large curl of ocean water will come crashing down and send its water along with the waters of the first wave moving up the shore... and nothing stops a third wave from breaking close after the first two before waters have gone back seawards...

  It’s a sort of second wave in the ocean that can easily catch people unawares if they are playing in the foam of the first wave when they are suddenly knocked off their feet and tumbled under by the second one. 

Or manage the second but get hit by the third.

That’s what I picture. 

(The Atlantic tends not to get waves like this.) 

I would think Australia would have this too, but in case not:

https://youtu.be/NOIBiHx5duM

 

Edited by Pen
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https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.23.20076042v1.full.pdf
 

preprint study from Uk. Overview of all hospitalised patient outcomes from 6th feb to 18th april

“Results - The median age was 72 years [IQR 57, 82; range 0, 104], the median duration of symptoms before admission was 4 days [IQR 1,8] and the median duration of hospital stay was 7 days [IQR 4,12]. The commonest comorbidities were chronic cardiac disease (29%), uncomplicated diabetes (19%), non-asthmatic chronic pulmonary disease (19%) and asthma (14%); 47% had no documented reported comorbidity. Increased age and comorbidities including obesity were associated with a higher probability of mortality. Distinct clusters of symptoms were found: 1. respiratory (cough, sputum, sore throat, runny nose, ear pain, wheeze, and chest pain); 2. systemic (myalgia, joint pain and fatigue); 3. enteric (abdominal pain, vomiting and diarrhoea). Overall, 49% of patients were discharged alive, 33% have died and 17% continued to receive care at date of reporting. 17% required admission to High Dependency or Intensive Care Units; of these, 31% were discharged alive, 45% died and 24% continued to receive care at the reporting date. Of those receiving mechanical ventilation, 20% were discharged alive, 53% died and 27% remained in hospital.”

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21 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

I suppose it depends upon how one pictures a wave. If image is a sine wave which goes in regular up and down curves with a first curve needing to be completely done before a second can begin that may be so.

 I picture a wave as being at a beach along the USA Pacific Ocean: in which case it rather often happens that one breaker will be foaming up onto the sand and not yet receding back to sea before a second large curl of ocean water will come crashing down and send its water along with the waters of the first wave moving up the shore... and nothing stops a third wave from breaking close after the first two before waters have gone back seawards...

  It’s a sort of second wave in the ocean that can easily catch people unawares if they are playing in the foam of the first wave when they are suddenly knocked off their feet and tumbled under by the second one. 

Or manage the second but get hit by the third.

That’s what I picture. 

(The Atlantic tends not to get waves like this.) 

I would think Australia would have this too, but in case not:

https://youtu.be/NOIBiHx5duM

 

That makes sense!  I was thinking of it more in a scientific sense like a wave on a graph where you have a curve that comes down and then starts going up.  If it’s being used in a metaphorical sense it works.

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