wuhan - coronavirus

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

I think the million dollar question isn't whether kids can get it from teachers.  We know that.  Most kids who get it get it at home (as do most people) and what daycare teachers do is very much like what parents do in terms of level of contact.  You can't change a diaper from 6 feet away.

The question that need to be answered are whether kids can get it from each other,  or give it to their teachers, and whether kids get it and bring it home and spread it to their parents.  

Hopefully, if they're doing genomic sequencing in Australia and other places, we'll figure that out.  

Yes, this is super important to know. 

Are we asking teachers to go into a life and death situation, at teacher pay? 

[Jaybee]

😐https://www.al.com/news/2020/07/5-children-including-infant-hospitalized-in-huntsville-with-coronavirus.html

The video embedded is worth watching, imo, especially as referring to masking.

[frogger]

59 minutes ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

That sounds reasonable to me.  

 

ETA:  We need a different punishmet for the Alabama idiots though, because that punishment would probably assure that they won the stupid contest.

 

Perhaps, but I think they just need reality to set in. 

[prairiewindmomma]

38 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Yes, this is super important to know. 

Are we asking teachers to go into a life and death situation, at teacher pay? 

Isn't this what we decided, though? That we can't eliminate all risk, and that we need to get schools going again so parents can return to work?  Teachers should pave the way, like other essential workers, in sacrificing themselves so that the economy can continue on.

I don't know how many news pieces I have heard this week about how children are suffering because parents are abusing them, not feeding them, and are causing emotional trauma by keeping them home this summer.  I started a tally today, and I'm up to 6 stories....largely all referring to what the American Academy of Pediatrics has released as their position.

Children may have less disease severity because they have fewer ACE receptors, but I have yet to meet a (sane) person who doesn't believe that schools are germ factories.

[ktgrok]

2 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Isn't this what we decided, though? That we can't eliminate all risk, and that we need to get schools going again so parents can return to work?  Teachers should pave the way, like other essential workers, in sacrificing themselves so that the economy can continue on.

I don't know how many news pieces I have heard this week about how children are suffering because parents are abusing them, not feeding them, and are causing emotional trauma by keeping them home this summer.  I started a tally today, and I'm up to 6 stories....largely all referring to what the American Academy of Pediatrics has released as their position.

Children may have less disease severity because they have fewer ACE receptors, but I have yet to meet a (sane) person who doesn't believe that schools are germ factories.

At least grocery workers have plexi glass in some places, can wear a mask, often customers are required to wear masks, etc. 

Seems people want schools to open without any of that, at least here. 

[prairiewindmomma]

6 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

At least grocery workers have plexi glass in some places, can wear a mask, often customers are required to wear masks, etc. 

Seems people want schools to open without any of that, at least here. 

Our state has issued guidance to districts.....they are definitely talking about plexiglass shields in places, clear shields, and masking....for those over 12. 

I just looked at our old district in TX....they are saying no masks, full-time school, etc.  It's insanity. Of course, TX isn't doing too well these days. 

These next few months are going to be "interesting". I have a feeling that disease activity will start to drive decision making again...we will be reacting rather than being proactive.

[Joker]

How do I safely (for her safety) stay at night with my 70 year old mother? Her recovery from surgery isn’t going near as well as hoped. I’ve spent the last several days at the hospital but would go home at night. Tonight, she’s at home and she can’t stay alone. I’m wearing a mask now during the day but what do I do while I’m sleeping. There is no way I can sleep in a mask as I’m really feeling the last few days and I feel like crud due to the mask wearing all day for several days. There is literally no one else so I have to do this. My teens are going out with small groups of friends and protests so I’m concerned about giving anything to her. 

Will just sleeping in a different room but masking when she needs me be enough? Doors will be open but I could be in another room.

[Matryoshka]

6 minutes ago, Joker said:

How do I safely (for her safety) stay at night with my 70 year old mother? Her recovery from surgery isn’t going near as well as hoped. I’ve spent the last several days at the hospital but would go home at night. Tonight, she’s at home and she can’t stay alone. I’m wearing a mask now during the day but what do I do while I’m sleeping. There is no way I can sleep in a mask as I’m really feeling the last few days and I feel like crud due to the mask wearing all day for several days. There is literally no one else so I have to do this. My teens are going out with small groups of friends and protests so I’m concerned about giving anything to her. 

Will just sleeping in a different room but masking when she needs me be enough? Doors will be open but I could be in another room.

Could you sleep in another room and keep windows open at night?

[Wheres Toto]

A friend of mine shared this with me.  It really speaks to how I'm feeling these days.

[ElizabethB]

6 hours ago, TracyP said:

Does anybody have thoughts on whether new treatment protocols could be improving outcomes? 

I have been looking at icu numbers and deaths for my state. If you assume the deaths from today were in the ICU yesterday than there has been a huge improvement. At the end of April it appears you had a 13-25% chance of dying if you were in ICU, but that has steadily dropped over the last 2 months. It is now a 2.5-7% chance of dying.

Has anybody else noticed this type of improvement? Any thoughts on what might be making the difference?

Current average infection age is younger.

Vitamin D levels should be higher.

We have a friend who is a nurse in a hospital that has seen large numbers of cases, he says both Hydroxychloroquin and plasma are working, he is really mad at the news right now for not reporting that.  (HCQ early with Zinc.)

[TracyP]

2 minutes ago, ElizabethB said:

Current average infection age is younger.

Vitamin D levels should be higher.

We have a friend who is a nurse in a hospital that has seen large numbers of cases, he says both Hydroxychloroquin and plasma are working, he is really mad at the news right now for not reporting that.  (HCQ early with Zinc.)

I wondered about more young people getting infected. I am under the impression that older people are still getting infected at the same rate, but I could be wrong. I really wish I had more information on hospitalizations by age.

I keep hearing mixed results about HCQ. I wish it hadn't become so politicized... Interesting to hear on the plasma. I know studies are being done and I'm really looking forward to the results.

[Pen]

24 minutes ago, Joker said:

How do I safely (for her safety) stay at night with my 70 year old mother? Her recovery from surgery isn’t going near as well as hoped. I’ve spent the last several days at the hospital but would go home at night. Tonight, she’s at home and she can’t stay alone. I’m wearing a mask now during the day but what do I do while I’m sleeping. There is no way I can sleep in a mask as I’m really feeling the last few days and I feel like crud due to the mask wearing all day for several days. There is literally no one else so I have to do this. My teens are going out with small groups of friends and protests so I’m concerned about giving anything to her. 

Will just sleeping in a different room but masking when she needs me be enough? Doors will be open but I could be in another room.

 

Distance helps   So different room should help

fresh air helps  (open windows as much as possible?) 

could cloth be hung on her or your doorway to sort of mask the room? 

Or both?

an air filter? 

 

Can you take some outdoors mask breaks for yourself? 

 

 

[Pen]

15 minutes ago, ElizabethB said:

Current average infection age is younger.

Vitamin D levels should be higher.

We have a friend who is a nurse in a hospital that has seen large numbers of cases, he says both Hydroxychloroquin and plasma are working, he is really mad at the news right now for not reporting that.  (HCQ early with Zinc.)

 

Everyone I know who has had personal experience with early HCQ plus zinc has said it helps. 

I am very agnostic about WHO, CDC, and Mainstream Media. 

[TCB]

2 hours ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

I think the million dollar question isn't whether kids can get it from teachers.  We know that.  Most kids who get it get it at home (as do most people) and what daycare teachers do is very much like what parents do in terms of level of contact.  You can't change a diaper from 6 feet away.

The question that need to be answered are whether kids can get it from each other,  or give it to their teachers, and whether kids get it and bring it home and spread it to their parents.  

Hopefully, if they're doing genomic sequencing in Australia and other places, we'll figure that out.  

Do kids get it from daycare workers who are wearing masks I wonder?

[Pen]

@Joker did they check her vitamin D, zinc, Selenium, calcium, magnesium, Potassium, etc levels while she was in the hospital?  Or any of those?  C-reactive protein? 

 

[prairiewindmomma]

1 hour ago, Joker said:

How do I safely (for her safety) stay at night with my 70 year old mother? Her recovery from surgery isn’t going near as well as hoped. I’ve spent the last several days at the hospital but would go home at night. Tonight, she’s at home and she can’t stay alone. I’m wearing a mask now during the day but what do I do while I’m sleeping. There is no way I can sleep in a mask as I’m really feeling the last few days and I feel like crud due to the mask wearing all day for several days. There is literally no one else so I have to do this. My teens are going out with small groups of friends and protests so I’m concerned about giving anything to her. 

Will just sleeping in a different room but masking when she needs me be enough? Doors will be open but I could be in another room.

The advice I have heard is to open the windows in the house (to bring in fresh air thereby reducing viral particles hanging in the air), to run HEPA filters, to strictly hand wash, and to try to use separate bathrooms.

Sleeping in a different room would absolutely help.

I absolutely step outside to breathe fresh air, mask free, when I have to mask for longer periods of time.  Be really careful unmasking and re-masking. If she has been in a hospital, she could absolutely be a risk to you as much as you are a risk to her.

[prairiewindmomma]

35 minutes ago, TCB said:

Do kids get it from daycare workers who are wearing masks I wonder?

If the daycare here was following guidelines, then yes, those adults and children had transmission from workers who were wearing masks. The state health authority is "investigating" that particular point.  Those children should have been subjected to daily health checks, parents doing outside drop-off, physical distancing within the play areas, and those kids would have been in stable cohort groups of no more than 10 with limited intermixing....kind of the same setup that schools are supposedly going to have in the fall.

 

[Pen]

30 minutes ago, square_25 said:

I remember seeing optimism about plasma. Anyone know of a study?

 

Nothing definitive.

 

this DrBeen video discusses, but it is 2 months old which is a long time in CV19 

The ~ 20 year old son of friends of DrBeen who died recently from CV19, Was given immunoglobulin, but I don’t know if it was convalescent CV19 immunoglobulin or not—and he was already almost dead by that point it seems.  

https://youtu.be/1yJ4tvDPEPg

 

 

If convalescent plasma helps, it seems that it needs to be ***early*** to help stop virus early.

and unfortunately it seems to usually be given late when patients are doing very badly 

CIDRAP seems to be negative on it (they also tend negative on masks and I take them with a grain of salt)

 

there are some positive reports but not conclusive studies

 

this is actually a report of late plasma and a recovered patient... 

https://kstp.com/minnesota-news/forest-lake-woman-recovering-from-covid-19-after-receiving-experimental-plasma-transfusions-july-1-2020/5778888/

 

[Pen]

18 minutes ago, square_25 said:

Since the average case is mild, early interventions are basically impossible to interpret without a control group.

That doesn’t mean that I always agree with the aforementioned entities, but this is not a situation where you can avoid confirmation bias, which is precisely what we study things for.

 

“Early” Not = “mild”.

very sick examples, early    Anecdotal 

 

for more studies look to India and France

India told WHO that they were continuing with HCQ

After the Surgisphere / Lancet debacle more HCQ studies will begin again probably.  They need to have the right additions such as particularly zinc and maybe Azithro.  

(I’ll stick with Home Quercitin plus zinc in meantime. ) 

[TCB]

11 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

If the daycare here was following guidelines, then yes, those adults and children had transmission from workers who were wearing masks. The state health authority is "investigating" that particular point.  Those children should have been subjected to daily health checks, parents doing outside drop-off, physical distancing within the play areas, and those kids would have been in stable cohort groups of no more than 10 with limited intermixing....kind of the same setup that schools are supposedly going to have in the fall.

 

From what I've seen at my place of work it would not surprise me at all if there was non-compliance with the rules.

[Pen]

The only late stage medication I have so far seen significant benefit from as reports in studies is dexamethasone   

[prairiewindmomma]

6 minutes ago, TCB said:

From what I've seen at my place of work it would not surprise me at all if there was non-compliance with the rules.

Yup.

[Pen]

1 minute ago, square_25 said:

I mean, most examples self-resolve, even if people feel very sick. So anecdotal reports are not great in this case. Anecdotal reports would have been more reliable for very sick patients, since the effect is stronger. 

Anyway, I look forward to the studies -- I'm interested in anything that works. 

 

https://youtu.be/vgQqT2xbXlo

 

studies he mentions have links

[TCB]

14 minutes ago, square_25 said:

What have you seen? 

We have not had any known positives for a number of weeks but may be starting up again now as some suspected. We are supposed to wear masks when we can't social distance and always wear them in the patient's rooms. A large number of people only wear them when in the rooms and there are some who don't always wear them then also. These are not people who have educated themselves on recent research. I hear some of them coming out with the same conspiracy type things that you read on social media. It's not that they don't believe it's real because we had multiple patients, but never anywhere close to being overwhelmed, but they just say they are over it and they don't care if they get it. Many are fairly young. I think the bravado is also the cool way to be.

[TCB]

Midwest, Missouri

[Pen]

https://www.telegraphindia.com/health/zinc-hope-in-corona-fight/cid/1771935

 

[Pen]

“Doctors at the New York University Grossman School of Medicine have found that adding zinc sulfate to hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin already given to Covid-19 patients decreased the need for ventilation or admission to intensive care units, and lowered mortality.

...

The findings could be relevant to India where experts with the Indian Council of Medical Research and other institutions have introduced the hydroxychloroquine-azithromycin combination for the treatment of Covid-19 patients.

Rahimian and his colleagues introduced zinc sulfate to Covid-19 patients as New York entered the ranks of cities hit the hardest by the pandemic.

They tracked the outcomes of the infections in 521 patients who received hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin and 411 who received zinc sulfate in addition to the two drugs.

They observed that adding zinc sulfate was associated with a “most striking” decrease in mortality among patients who did not require intensive care. The association was not significant among patients who were treated in intensive care, implying that the addition of zinc should be considered early during treatment. “The benefit is likely to be more pronounced with its earlier use,” Rahimian said.”

 

[Pen]

Travel Medicine and Infectious Disease

Available online 25 June 2020, 101791

In Press, Journal Pre-proofWhat are Journal Pre-proof articles?

Outcomes of 3,737 COVID-19 patients treated with hydroxychloroquine/azithromycin and other regimens in Marseille, France: A retrospective analysis

 

 

ms. No cases of torsade de pointe or sudden death were observed.

Conclusion

Although this is a retrospective analysis, results suggest that early diagnosis, early isolation and early treatment of COVID-19 patients, with at least 3 days of HCQ-AZ lead to a significantly better clinical outcome and a faster viral load reduction than other treatments

 

[Corraleno]

12 minutes ago, Pen said:

Travel Medicine and Infectious Disease

Available online 25 June 2020, 101791

In Press, Journal Pre-proofWhat are Journal Pre-proof articles?

Outcomes of 3,737 COVID-19 patients treated with hydroxychloroquine/azithromycin and other regimens in Marseille, France: A retrospective analysis

 

 

ms. No cases of torsade de pointe or sudden death were observed.

Conclusion

Although this is a retrospective analysis, results suggest that early diagnosis, early isolation and early treatment of COVID-19 patients, with at least 3 days of HCQ-AZ lead to a significantly better clinical outcome and a faster viral load reduction than other treatments

 

That's an interesting study, but it should be noted that 3/4 of the "other treatments" group also received HCQ+AZ (for less than 3 days, often because of side effects), or HCQ alone, or AZ alone, and that group also had significantly higher percentages of almost all the underlying risk factors such as diabetes, cancer, heart disease, hypertension, etc.

[TracyP]

1 hour ago, square_25 said:

I remember seeing optimism about plasma. Anyone know of a study?

Plasma is being looked at by the University of Oxford. They are looking at 4 or 5 different treatments. The results for HCQ and dexamethasone have come out, plasma will hopefully be coming soon.

[TCB]

11 minutes ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

I would have lost my mind if someone had tried to walk into my son's room without a mask.  It wouldn't have been pretty.  You all would be wondering where I went, because I don't think there's wifi in jail.  

To me, this is a really good example of how the PPE shortage hurts people, because at least in my area, the lack of PPE is why adults can't have visitors in the hospital, and many hospitalized patients need someone to advocate for them in situations like this.

Patients are allowed 1 visitor each now. Frankly many people around here are of the "this is a hoax" persuasion. We shut down early, before it had spread much at all in our area, and there was very limited testing here for a long time, so the numbers didn't accurately reflect how many people got it the first time round. The help line here talked to quite a few people who were presumed to have it but not sick enough to get tested. Also all our confirmed positive patients survived, although for a handful it was a close run thing, and they did not count the few who did not survive but did not have a positive test. So, in other words, they haven't seen much with their own eyes yet.

ETA - the general public haven't seen much with their own eyes yet, but of course the staff have, just feel invincible I guess.

Edited July 2, 2020 by TCB

[Pen]

2 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

That's an interesting study, but it should be noted that 3/4 of the "other treatments" group also received HCQ+AZ (for less than 3 days, often because of side effects), or HCQ alone, or AZ alone, and that group also had significantly higher percentages of almost all the underlying risk factors such as diabetes, cancer, heart disease, hypertension, etc.

 

Shouldn’t that be an “and “ not a “but”? 

[Matryoshka]

4 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

That's an interesting study, but it should be noted that 3/4 of the "other treatments" group also received HCQ+AZ (for less than 3 days, often because of side effects), or HCQ alone, or AZ alone, and that group also had significantly higher percentages of almost all the underlying risk factors such as diabetes, cancer, heart disease, hypertension, etc.

As mentioned in the earlier study from NY, it really does seem that zinc needs to be added to the mix to make much of a difference - it doesn't sound like this study used it at all?

[ktgrok]

41 minutes ago, TCB said:

We have not had any known positives for a number of weeks but may be starting up again now as some suspected. We are supposed to wear masks when we can't social distance and always wear them in the patient's rooms. A large number of people only wear them when in the rooms and there are some who don't always wear them then also. These are not people who have educated themselves on recent research. I hear some of them coming out with the same conspiracy type things that you read on social media. It's not that they don't believe it's real because we had multiple patients, but never anywhere close to being overwhelmed, but they just say they are over it and they don't care if they get it. Many are fairly young. I think the bravado is also the cool way to be.

Yeah, but man, you'd hope they would care if they gave it to others!!!!! GRRRRRRR!!!

31 minutes ago, Pen said:

“Doctors at the New York University Grossman School of Medicine have found that adding zinc sulfate to hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin already given to Covid-19 patients decreased the need for ventilation or admission to intensive care units, and lowered mortality.

...

 

They tracked the outcomes of the infections in 521 patients who received hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin and 411 who received zinc sulfate in addition to the two drugs.

They observed that adding zinc sulfate was associated with a “most striking” decrease in mortality among patients who did not require intensive care. The association was not significant among patients who were treated in intensive care, implying that the addition of zinc should be considered early during treatment. “The benefit is likely to be more pronounced with its earlier use,” Rahimian said.”

 

my concern is that we know that there was some research showing that HCQ and Azithromycin INCREASED mortality, so does the zinc just bring that back down to baseline, same as if they got nothing, or does it lower it below a control group who didn't get any HCQ/Azithromycin? 

And does zinc alone work? Can't remember if that was tested, but seems a lot safer if it does. 

17 minutes ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

I would have lost my mind if someone had tried to walk into my son's room without a mask.  It wouldn't have been pretty.  You all would be wondering where I went, because I don't think there's wifi in jail.  

 

My husband worries he's going to get a call for bail money every time I leave the house. (people who know us, but not well, assume he is the one likely to be arrested or get in a fight. People that know us much better, know I'm the one to worry about, lol)

[TCB]

4 minutes ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

I am glad that you are there.  Our hospitals are still only allowing parents or primary caregivers for pediatrics, and a few limited exceptions such as end of life visits for noncovid patients. 

The long term hospital where my kid used to live hasn't allowed parents since March. 

Are these medical professionals?  I am very glad that none of the medical professionals we have interacted with seem to think this is a hoax.  As you point out, that may be because we have had a lot of cases in our area.   I just that's a small silver lining?

No, sorry I edited to say this was the general public. The staff know it's real, just think they are invincible or something. 

[Laura Corin]

10 minutes ago, square_25 said:

What have they found so far? 

I thought NY was also doing stuff with plasma... don't know if there are studies, though? I don't keep track of the studies the way I do of the actual COVID data. 

http://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2020-06-16-dexamethasone-reduces-death-hospitalised-patients-severe-respiratory-complications#

http://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2020-06-05-no-clinical-benefit-use-hydroxychloroquine-hospitalised-patients-covid-19

 

[Pen]

10 minutes ago, square_25 said:

I would really like a controlled study for this one. I don't think anything else will be reasonable for an early treatment, given that most people do recover and it's so hard to disentangle everything. 

 

I think you mean blind or double blind and prospective rather than retrospective? 

 

The controls are the different treatment groups. 

I would like a prospective  blind controlled study too.

 

However, this is quite a good study. It seems to predate knowing to have also added zinc.  

However, since it is in one facility with care in general, food, water, etc., being standard it has an aspect of control that many “controlled blind studies” aggregating data from different places don’t have: where the medicine may be controlled, but many other care factors are hugely different in different cohorts. 

 

[73349]

Did they compare HCQ+AZ+Zn with just zinc, I wonder?

[Matryoshka]

1 minute ago, whitehawk said:

Did they compare HCQ+AZ+Zn with just zinc, I wonder?

I thought I read (on here probably) that the HCQ helps get the zinc into the cells so it's more effective (which is why I can't figure why so many of the studies didn't use zinc, as that seems like what's actually doing the virus-killing... ), but someone (Pen?) has been saying Quercitin works with the zinc in a similar way.  Would be nice if they tested that combo...

[Corraleno]

3 minutes ago, Pen said:

Shouldn’t that be an “and “ not a “but”? 

There were large discrepancies in underlying conditions and severity of disease between the treatment and control groups:

Over 65: 9.5% vs  25.4% (and over 74 = 5.7% vs 16%)

Cancer: 2.7% vs 7.4%

Diabetes: 7.5% vs 12.5%

Heart disease: 4% vs 15.2%

Hypertension: 13% vs 24.4%

Chronic respiratory illness: 8.6% vs 11.5%

Severity of illness (score >6):   2.6% vs 10.5%

 

When the "other treatment" group contains double or triple the percentage of patients with cancer, heart disease, and hypertension, almost triple the percentage of elderly, and quadruple the percentage of severely ill patients, that is an important factor to consider in evaluating the study.

[Pen]

16 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Yeah, but man, you'd hope they would care if they gave it to others!!!!! GRRRRRRR!!!

my concern is that we know that there was some research showing that HCQ and Azithromycin INCREASED mortality, so does the zinc just bring that back down to baseline, same as if they got nothing, or does it lower it below a control group who didn't get any HCQ/Azithromycin? 

Are you referring to the bogus study out of Brigham and Women’s, (Harvard ?) and  Surgisphere iirc published in Lancet and later retracted because it was fraudulent? 

 

Quote

And does zinc alone work? Can't remember if that was tested, but seems a lot safer if it does. 

We should keep our zinc levels optimum.

Zinc alone cannot penetrate to where it is needed if coronavirus has entered cells, however. It needs a zinc ionophore.

natural otc or food based zinc ionophores include Quercitin and green tea polyphenols.  However they are probably not as good as hcq.  OTOH, for home use that (Quercitin and green tea and zinc) is what I have. 

( ETA: we should also keep our vitamin D and Selenium etc level’s optimal!  Zinc helps kill coronavirus, D and Selenium probably help to keep it from entering cells...)

Quote

My husband worries he's going to get a call for bail money every time I leave the house. (people who know us, but not well, assume he is the one likely to be arrested or get in a fight. People that know us much better, know I'm the one to worry about, lol)

 

Edited July 2, 2020 by Pen

[Corraleno]

2 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

I thought I read (on here probably) that the HCQ helps get the zinc into the cells so it's more effective (which is why I can't figure why so many of the studies didn't use zinc, as that seems like what's actually doing the virus-killing... ), but someone (Pen?) has been saying Quercitin works with the zinc in a similar way.  Would be nice if they tested that combo...

I would really like to see that as well. 

[Pen]

18 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

I thought I read (on here probably) that the HCQ helps get the zinc into the cells so it's more effective (which is why I can't figure why so many of the studies didn't use zinc, as that seems like what's actually doing the virus-killing... ), but someone (Pen?) has been saying Quercitin works with the zinc in a similar way.  Would be nice if they tested that combo...

 

hcq helps act as a zinc ionophore to help get zinc into cells.  It appears in things I have read that it also probably helps decrease likelihood of cytokine storm.   So two useful actions. One to decrease the virus itself, the other to decrease immune system overreaction.

 

there was a study out of possibly Turkey looking at various polyphenols including Quercitin, (but not specifically with zinc).

there was a Chinese study that showed that parts of China naturally high in zinc have less Covid19 or less CV19 mortality  than areas deficient in zinc.  They didn’t specifically include a zinc ionophore, but I expect that tea use with relevant polyphenols is high in China. 

Edited July 2, 2020 by Pen
Mortality not morality 🙃

[Pen]

2 minutes ago, square_25 said:

I don't see how that would be a blind study -- doesn't "blind" imply randomized? You can't randomize if you are aggregating. 

Anyway, I would really like a basic randomized study -- take a good number of people, flip a coin and assign a group to each person, don't tell either them or their doctor what medicine they have, track the groups and don't exclude the ones that didn't tolerate treatment from the treatment group, see what happens. 

 

I have a feeling there’s a miscommunication between us, but not clear what it is. 

[Pen]

19 minutes ago, square_25 said:

It's entirely possible! But I'm pretty much saying something boring, which is that I never trust retrospective studies, unless there are a LOT of them, with very large numbers and a very strong effect. I occasionally trust "natural experiment" type studies (hence my comments about, say, spread in kids), because they tend to involve a lot more people and it's easier to see the effects with your naked eye. 

I'm basically extremely skeptical of most published medical and social science findings, period. Most aren't well-designed. But if I had my druthers and designed a study, I'd do a proper double blind study. 

This isn't specific to this study... just the skepticism I've come to over the years. 

 

How exactly?  Say you started with a hospital in Queens getting a flood of CV19 cases...

What’s your next step?  

 

ETA: or, suppose not Queens as that’s kind of done already.

Say Manhattan spikes and a hospital like Columbia Presbyterian has plenty of severe cases to get some potentially meaningful results.  Assume your family is amongst the cases in the hospital.

How do you design an excellent study?

Edited July 2, 2020 by Pen

[prairiewindmomma]

28 minutes ago, TCB said:

No, sorry I edited to say this was the general public. The staff know it's real, just think they are invincible or something. 

QFT. I have friends who are doctors and nurses in your region and they are remarkably blase. They are socializing without masks in their private lives, going places, and generally acting as if they are safe in their protective bubble. They aren’t reading journals or trying to educate themselves at all. 
 

I am worried they are going to have a huge outbreak TX or FL style because everyone is so casual in their mask wearing.

 

 

[Pen]

2 minutes ago, square_25 said:

It's the Stats 101 study design -- flip a coin, assign each patient to one group or the other, give them different treatments. 

Are you worried about ethical issues here? Like, not giving all possible treatments to a patient? That's definitely an issue. That's probably why you'd wind up comparing to a different treatment as opposed to placebo. 

 

Yes. In part the ethical issues. 

But also the practical ones. 

It is irl almost always a very complicated situation in hospitals, not a neat Stats 101 situation. 

 

What exactly are the two groups? What else is done or not done for the patients?

exactly how much medicine of each type is given?

etc

 

Edited July 2, 2020 by Pen

[prairiewindmomma]

5 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

*breaking news*

The land of the free and no masks aka TX has mandated masks for all counties with 20 or more cases which is pretty much the whole state. 

Too bad that didn’t happen six weeks ago. Any chance someone is going to round up the Lt. Governor and go stick him somewhere safe, like the Marfa Prada store?

Edited July 2, 2020 by prairiewindmomma

[prairiewindmomma]

Y’all know TX is only taking it seriously because HEB instituted its mask rule and rationing again first. 😂

[Pen]

10 minutes ago, square_25 said:

I'll ask DH about how one would design this study. He's a mathematician, but he's works with people at Columbia's Med School and may know. I know he doesn't trust any retrospective studies either, though. 

 

👍

Getting ready for a top notch prospective study to be done at Columbia Med School would be excellent.   Cases could well surge in Manhattan and to be prospective it needs to be readied in advance. 

 

Maybe this could be for real life, not just a WTM board question.