wuhan - coronavirus

[Shoeless]

On 6/6/2020 at 1:53 PM, Arctic Mama said:

Quick encouraging summary out of Pennsylvania, this fits with what is being observed across the country in terms of infection rates and virulence, as well as severity 🙂

https://disrn.com/news/u-of-pittsburgh-medical-center-covid-19-has-become-less-prevalent-isnt-making-people-as-sick

 

I read a similar article about cases in Italy.  The Italian doctors were saying that the cases they saw were not nearly as severe as they were at the start of the outbreak. 

It kind of makes sense, though. The more lethal strains of a virus will die out because it kills off too many hosts before it can spread further. What you are left with is a less lethal version that doesn't kill off as many hosts. 

[Ausmumof3]

39 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

 

I read a similar article about cases in Italy.  The Italian doctors were saying that the cases they saw were not nearly as severe as they were at the start of the outbreak. 

It kind of makes sense, though. The more lethal strains of a virus will die out because it kills off too many hosts before it can spread further. What you are left with is a less lethal version that doesn't kill off as many hosts. 

The only weird thing with this is at this stage it seems like the strains haven’t mutated or changed a lot.  It does seem to be less deadly somehow yet from what the tests are finding it’s the same virus.

[Pen]

5 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

The only weird thing with this is at this stage it seems like the strains haven’t mutated or changed a lot.  It does seem to be less deadly somehow yet from what the tests are finding it’s the same virus.

 

This video addresses that:

https://youtu.be/wV8nF-MSlAs

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 8, 2020 by Pen

[TCB]

6 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

The only weird thing with this is at this stage it seems like the strains haven’t mutated or changed a lot.  It does seem to be less deadly somehow yet from what the tests are finding it’s the same virus.

Do you think it might be less deadly because we have learned at least some methods of better treatment even if we don't have a "cure" ? I think, at least in the US, that the initial recommendation of early ventilation lead to worse outcomes.

ETA Which was one of the reasons we talked about how it was better to contract it later rather than earlier.

Edited June 8, 2020 by TCB

[Matryoshka]

14 minutes ago, TCB said:

Do you think it might be less deadly because we have learned at least some methods of better treatment even if we don't have a "cure" ? I think, at least in the US, that the initial recommendation of early ventilation lead to worse outcomes.

ETA Which was one of the reasons we talked about how it was better to contract it later rather than earlier.

Exactly.  The more we figure out about this, the more we can catch it early, the more likely it will be less deadly, even before a vaccine.  I have no understanding of why anyone would have wanted to get this early.  If I can't avoid it entirely, I'm going to avoid it as long as possible!

[Pen]

24 minutes ago, TCB said:

Do you think it might be less deadly because we have learned at least some methods of better treatment even if we don't have a "cure" ? I think, at least in the US, that the initial recommendation of early ventilation lead to worse outcomes.

ETA Which was one of the reasons we talked about how it was better to contract it later rather than earlier.

 

Sure. 

Many possibilities...

PPE production and use has been increasing. So perhaps health care and first responders are getting lesser viral loads, thus fewer deaths in some of those groups 

In places like Italy it already decimated the most vulnerable, so remaining hosts are less likely to die (perhaps instead in many places there’s an increase in ‘long tail’ cases rather than deaths). 

Maybe some people in some places are catching on to things like Vitamin D, zinc, etc... which could perhaps be helpful for getting less severe /fatal cases...    India seems to be finding HCQ helpful and prophylactically correlated with less severe / fatal outcomes ...  perhaps things like MATH plus protocols help ...

 

 

[Pawz4me]

I haven't had time to look at this study yet, but it's being spun as pretty solid evidence that masks help.

Quote

In a scientific article published in the journal Cell, scientists at the UNC Gillings School of Global Public Health and the UNC School of Medicine have characterized the specific ways in which SARS-CoV-2 — the coronavirus that causes COVID-19 — infects the nasal cavity to a great degree by replicating specific cell types, and infects and replicates progressively less well in cells lower down the respiratory tract, including in the lungs.

The findings suggest the virus tends to become firmly established first in the nasal cavity. Then, in some cases, the virus is aspirated into the lungs where it may cause more serious disease, including potentially fatal pneumonia.

“If the nose is the dominant initial site from which lung infections are seeded, then the widespread use of masks to protect the nasal passages, as well as any therapeutic strategies that reduce virus in the nose, such as nasal irrigation or antiviral nasal sprays, could be beneficial,” said study co-senior author Dr. Richard Boucher, the James C. Moeser Eminent Distinguished Professor of medicine and director of the Marsico Lung Institute at the UNC School of Medicine.

 

[ElizabethB]

3 hours ago, Pen said:

 

Sure. 

Many possibilities...

PPE production and use has been increasing. So perhaps health care and first responders are getting lesser viral loads, thus fewer deaths in some of those groups 

In places like Italy it already decimated the most vulnerable, so remaining hosts are less likely to die (perhaps instead in many places there’s an increase in ‘long tail’ cases rather than deaths). 

Maybe some people in some places are catching on to things like Vitamin D, zinc, etc... which could perhaps be helpful for getting less severe /fatal cases...    India seems to be finding HCQ helpful and prophylactically correlated with less severe / fatal outcomes ...  perhaps things like MATH plus protocols help ...

 

 

I have a friend who is a nurse in a northern rust belt state.  He said that both plasma and HCQ seem to be working on his patients, and that those who die are mostly elderly with several underlying conditions.  

Hopefully that is true and people are getting good vitamin D with the start of summer to ward off more severe problems.

[cjzimmer1]

2 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

I haven't had time to look at this study yet, but it's being spun as pretty solid evidence that masks help.

 

 

  Quote

The findings suggest the virus tends to become firmly established first in the nasal cavity. Then, in some cases, the virus is aspirated into the lungs where it may cause more serious disease, including potentially fatal pneumonia.

“If the nose is the dominant initial site from which lung infections are seeded, then the widespread use of masks to protect the nasal passages, as well as any therapeutic strategies that reduce virus in the nose, such as nasal irrigation or antiviral nasal sprays, could be beneficial,” said study co-senior author Dr. Richard Boucher, the James C. Moeser Eminent Distinguished Professor of medicine and director of the Marsico Lung Institute at the UNC School of Medicine.

I would be very curious if there is a difference between mouth breathers and nose breathers.  I have never for as long as I can remember breathed through my nose without giving it conscience thought first.  I had no idea that most people breathe through their nose.  I remember having surgery once and they put the nose thing with oxygen on me.  As soon as I woke up, I asked to have it removed and the nurse is like "no, you need the extra oxygen".  I told her I'm not breathing through my nose so how does it help"  She was aghast at the idea I was breathing through my mouth but I told her that was normal for me. So she checked my oxygen levels, then removed the nose thing and check them again later and once she was satisfied that my oxygen was fine she finally removed it for good.  But she was as shocked to learn that I never breathe through my nose as I was to learn that people normally did.

Edited June 8, 2020 by cjzimmer1

[Pen]

1 hour ago, cjzimmer1 said:

 

  Quote

The findings suggest the virus tends to become firmly established first in the nasal cavity. Then, in some cases, the virus is aspirated into the lungs where it may cause more serious disease, including potentially fatal pneumonia.

“If the nose is the dominant initial site from which lung infections are seeded, then the widespread use of masks to protect the nasal passages, as well as any therapeutic strategies that reduce virus in the nose, such as nasal irrigation or antiviral nasal sprays, could be beneficial,” said study co-senior author Dr. Richard Boucher, the James C. Moeser Eminent Distinguished Professor of medicine and director of the Marsico Lung Institute at the UNC School of Medicine.

I would be very curious if there is a difference between mouth breathers and nose breathers.  I have never for as long as I can remember breathed through my nose without giving it conscience thought first.  I had no idea that most people breathe through their nose.  I remember having surgery once and they put the nose thing with oxygen on me.  As soon as I woke up, I asked to have it removed and the nurse is like "no, you need the extra oxygen".  I told her I'm not breathing through my nose so how does it help"  She was aghast at the idea I was breathing through my mouth but I told her that was normal for me. So she checked my oxygen levels, then removed the nose thing and check them again later and once she was satisfied that my oxygen was fine she finally removed it for good.  But she was as shocked to learn that I never breathe through my nose as I was to learn that people normally did.

 

From a CV19 POV that’s an interesting question.  

I don’t know how that would work out with potential competing considerations I know about, let alone ones I don’t.

The issue of nose being primary initial site (or is that because most people are nose breathers?)

more potential direct brain access from nose 

vs

 Nitric  Oxide being higher for nose breathing

 usually immunity thought to be enhanced for nose breathing 

possible more cilia etc to help strain out virus before getting down in lungs when breathing through nose

 

????

definitely an interesting question even for which to do short term when in an indoor space that could have virus present  !!!

 

[Pen]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7200356/

relates to nose v mouth breathing @cjzimmer1 but is speculative based on other illnesses, not a study

 

(Higher natural NO may be a physiological difference adding to behavior differences for why Asian countries seem to have have done relatively better than Europe, the Americas, and likely Africa.  In addition to Vitamin D differences, ACE2 receptors etc.  ) 

Edited June 8, 2020 by Pen

[Ausmumof3]

8 hours ago, TCB said:

Do you think it might be less deadly because we have learned at least some methods of better treatment even if we don't have a "cure" ? I think, at least in the US, that the initial recommendation of early ventilation lead to worse outcomes.

ETA Which was one of the reasons we talked about how it was better to contract it later rather than earlier.

Yes I hope so and also the understanding around blood clotting risks etc. this is the less acknowledged benefit of the shutdowns - time to work how it works 

[Pen]

2 hours ago, Arctic Mama said:

Yes, I think that is exactly it.  And potentially who and where it is spreading.  5000 cases in a college isn’t as worrisome as 20 in a nursing home, because of risk profiles.  So if we are seeing many cases but they’re mild and diffuse in the general population that’s not bad news, per se.  Lower lethality is always a plus.

 

Are a lot of colleges with populations over 5000 open for in person classes without SDing etc. ?

[Pen]

https://stack.dailybruin.com/2020/05/12/covid-model/

 

A model from UCLA...  possibly of interest.  Though I am also skeptical of models. But I guess maybe they need something.

[Pen]

48 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

Some, but not many.  Interestingly Liberty hasn’t seen a spike in cases despite being open almost the whole time and not requiring the dorms to empty out.  That’s also positive news.

 

From Liberty University website:

 

 

“What impact does Governor Northam’s March 30 Executive Order have on operations at Liberty University?

Liberty was already operating in compliance with most provisions of Order 55.  After the March 30 Order, Liberty closed down the only remaining in person instruction, which had been in the School of Aviation, having previously moved all of its other classroom instruction to an online delivery format and either discontinued labs or used substitute formats.  Additionally, Liberty is informing its residential students of the travel restrictions in the Order and adjusting its curfew and checkout policies to support these new restrictions. “

 

????

 

it sounds like even if dorms were open, there were major SDing restrictions 

 

[MarieCurie]

5 hours ago, cjzimmer1 said:

 

  Quote

The findings suggest the virus tends to become firmly established first in the nasal cavity. Then, in some cases, the virus is aspirated into the lungs where it may cause more serious disease, including potentially fatal pneumonia.

“If the nose is the dominant initial site from which lung infections are seeded, then the widespread use of masks to protect the nasal passages, as well as any therapeutic strategies that reduce virus in the nose, such as nasal irrigation or antiviral nasal sprays, could be beneficial,” said study co-senior author Dr. Richard Boucher, the James C. Moeser Eminent Distinguished Professor of medicine and director of the Marsico Lung Institute at the UNC School of Medicine.

I would be very curious if there is a difference between mouth breathers and nose breathers.  I have never for as long as I can remember breathed through my nose without giving it conscience thought first.  I had no idea that most people breathe through their nose.  I remember having surgery once and they put the nose thing with oxygen on me.  As soon as I woke up, I asked to have it removed and the nurse is like "no, you need the extra oxygen".  I told her I'm not breathing through my nose so how does it help"  She was aghast at the idea I was breathing through my mouth but I told her that was normal for me. So she checked my oxygen levels, then removed the nose thing and check them again later and once she was satisfied that my oxygen was fine she finally removed it for good.  But she was as shocked to learn that I never breathe through my nose as I was to learn that people normally did.

How do you not breathe through your nose? Even when my mouth is open I still have air coming in and out my nose.

[Ausmumof3]

3 hours ago, Pen said:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7200356/

relates to nose v mouth breathing @cjzimmer1 but is speculative based on other illnesses, not a study

 

(Higher natural NO may be a physiological difference adding to behavior differences for why Asian countries seem to have have done relatively better than Europe, the Americas, and likely Africa.  In addition to Vitamin D differences, ACE2 receptors etc.  ) 

I’m wondering if dairy consumption plays a role?  I get more congestion, mouth breathing when I have too much dairy.  And dairy seems to be less common in Asian diets.

[Pen]

This might be a game changer:

 

https://www.livescience.com/dogs-smell-covid-19.html

 

[Ausmumof3]

5 hours ago, cjzimmer1 said:

 

  Quote

The findings suggest the virus tends to become firmly established first in the nasal cavity. Then, in some cases, the virus is aspirated into the lungs where it may cause more serious disease, including potentially fatal pneumonia.

“If the nose is the dominant initial site from which lung infections are seeded, then the widespread use of masks to protect the nasal passages, as well as any therapeutic strategies that reduce virus in the nose, such as nasal irrigation or antiviral nasal sprays, could be beneficial,” said study co-senior author Dr. Richard Boucher, the James C. Moeser Eminent Distinguished Professor of medicine and director of the Marsico Lung Institute at the UNC School of Medicine.

I would be very curious if there is a difference between mouth breathers and nose breathers.  I have never for as long as I can remember breathed through my nose without giving it conscience thought first.  I had no idea that most people breathe through their nose.  I remember having surgery once and they put the nose thing with oxygen on me.  As soon as I woke up, I asked to have it removed and the nurse is like "no, you need the extra oxygen".  I told her I'm not breathing through my nose so how does it help"  She was aghast at the idea I was breathing through my mouth but I told her that was normal for me. So she checked my oxygen levels, then removed the nose thing and check them again later and once she was satisfied that my oxygen was fine she finally removed it for good.  But she was as shocked to learn that I never breathe through my nose as I was to learn that people normally did.

I think there’s some yoga stuff you can do to help with this?

im also a mouth breather at night only mostly and it’s linked to increased dental and orthodontic problems as well.

[Pen]

5 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I think there’s some yoga stuff you can do to help with this?

im also a mouth breather at night only mostly and it’s linked to increased dental and orthodontic problems as well.

 

Yoga...

Breathing exercises ...

Lip tape 😉. 

 

[Pen]

Detection dogs identifying CV19 study preprint:

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.06.03.132134v1

Since dogs can be infected, I hope they make sure the dogs have optimum D levels, zinc, etc...

 

[cjzimmer1]

58 minutes ago, MarieCurie said:

How do you not breathe through your nose? Even when my mouth is open I still have air coming in and out my nose.

Really?!? I don't have any at all.  I have to conscientiously think about forcing air through my nose and it only works when my mouth is closed.  Even then, I can tell I'm not getting near enough air.  I can only do it for a few breathes and then I have to open my mouth or I start feeling like I'm suffocating.

[cjzimmer1]

1 hour ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I think there’s some yoga stuff you can do to help with this?

im also a mouth breather at night only mostly and it’s linked to increased dental and orthodontic problems as well.

Interesting thought about trying to fix it.  I guess I never viewed it as a problem.  It wasn't until my mid 30's when I discovered it wasn't normal so by that point it was like "oh, I'm different, what else is new" (my whole life I've had unusual illnesses/reactions that have left many doctors saying "I've never seen that before", but my grandma was the same way so I just assumed it was some hereditary weirdness that I had).  I did have horribly messed up teeth as a child but braces fixed it and I've never had teeth problems since).

I don't snore and that was the only thing I had ever heard could be a problem.  

Edited June 9, 2020 by cjzimmer1

[MarieCurie]

1 hour ago, cjzimmer1 said:

Really?!? I don't have any at all.  I have to conscientiously think about forcing air through my nose and it only works when my mouth is closed.  Even then, I can tell I'm not getting near enough air.  I can only do it for a few breathes and then I have to open my mouth or I start feeling like I'm suffocating.

Interesting. Have you ever had a doctor look at it? It sounds like some sort of blockage in your nose.

[cjzimmer1]

8 minutes ago, MarieCurie said:

Interesting. Have you ever had a doctor look at it? It sounds like some sort of blockage in your nose.

Since it was only a few years ago that I even discovered it wasn't usual and I've never encountered any problems, no it never crossed my mind to ask a doctor about it.  But after reading your description of breathing it has made wonder if I have an issue.  I rarely go to the doctor so we'll have to see if I remember to ask about the next time I go.

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, cjzimmer1 said:

Really?!? I don't have any at all.  I have to conscientiously think about forcing air through my nose and it only works when my mouth is closed.  Even then, I can tell I'm not getting near enough air.  I can only do it for a few breathes and then I have to open my mouth or I start feeling like I'm suffocating.

Yeah....that's not normal, to not be able to get enough air. Sounds like you have chronic nasal congestion, or a badly deviated septum (mind is actually S shaped, lol) or maybe adenoids? 

My septum is pretty severe, to the point that a medical test that I was supposed to have done that involved putting a sensor up my nose and into my throat couldn't be done - there was no room to pass it via either nostril. But even i can breathe through my nose when I'm not congested. I do breathe through my mouth when sleeping. 

I do have to wonder.....what did you think noses were for, lol? 

On a more serious note, yes, mouth breathing is linked to tooth decay and gum disease because of the drying effect. 

Edited June 9, 2020 by Ktgrok

[cjzimmer1]

20 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Yeah....that's not normal, to not be able to get enough air. Sounds like you have chronic nasal congestion, or a badly deviated septum (mind is actually S shaped, lol) or maybe adenoids? 

My septum is pretty severe, to the point that a medical test that I was supposed to have done that involved putting a sensor up my nose and into my throat couldn't be done - there was no room to pass it via either nostril. But even i can breathe through my nose when I'm not congested. I do breathe through my mouth when sleeping. 

I do have to wonder.....what did you think noses were for, lol? 

On a more serious note, yes, mouth breathing is linked to tooth decay and gum disease because of the drying effect. 

My adenoids were taken out when I was 4, I had chronic ear infections before that surgery and none since.  Noses are for smelling things 🙂 , honestly though I never really gave it any thought.  It was "my" normal so really never pondered it.  I had a lot of allergies as a kid so I suspect that I was just so used to never being able to breathe through it that it became a habit to mouth breathe.  

[vonfirmath]

43 minutes ago, cjzimmer1 said:

My adenoids were taken out when I was 4, I had chronic ear infections before that surgery and none since.  Noses are for smelling things 🙂 , honestly though I never really gave it any thought.  It was "my" normal so really never pondered it.  I had a lot of allergies as a kid so I suspect that I was just so used to never being able to breathe through it that it became a habit to mouth breathe.  

I had a septum straightened because of breathing out of my mouth instead of my nose.

No idea how much good it has done.

 

[Melissa in Australia]

2 hours ago, MarieCurie said:

Interesting. Have you ever had a doctor look at it? It sounds like some sort of blockage in your nose.

Maybe polyps

Edited June 9, 2020 by Melissa in Australia

[JennyD]

Israel update: Number of new cases yesterday the highest since April.   Are we in a second wave?  A new stage of the first wave?  A reason for mild concern or imminent disaster?  Nobody seems to agree.

I fervently hope that these theories of declining lethality are correct, because boy this virus is hella contagious.  And Israel's experience reopening schools was not at all encouraging.  Unless it turns out that catching this virus is genuinely not something to be afraid of, I cannot possibly imagine how US colleges and universities (let alone K-12 schools) are going to reopen in the fall.  

On the sort-of bright side, the testing criteria have been significantly expanded and many of the new cases are being diagnosed in children and teens who have minimal (or no) symptoms.  It's also not clear what the false positive rate is when testing so broadly.  I guess we will learn more in the fullness of time.  

 

 

Edited June 9, 2020 by JennyD

[Arcadia]

Italy 🇮🇹 https://www.straitstimes.com/world/europe/over-half-of-people-tested-in-italys-bergamo-have-coronavirus-antibodies

“ROME (REUTERS) - More than half the residents tested in Italy's northern province of Bergamo have coronavirus antibodies, health authorities said on Monday (June 8), citing a sample survey.

Of 9,965 residents who had blood tests between April 23 and June 3, 57 per cent had antibodies indicating they had come into contact with the coronavirus, the survey showed.

Health authorities in Bergamo said the results were based on a "random" sample which was "sufficiently broad" to be a reliable indicator of how many people had been infected in the province, which became the epicentre of Italy's outbreak.

In a separate statement issued later, the Bergamo health agency said that most of those in the sample were residents of the worst-hit areas. Many had already been put under quarantine, the statement added.

Antibodies were found in just over 30 per cent of the 10,404 health operators tested although they are generally considered more at risk than other people.

In a report released in early May, national statistics institute ISTAT said the number of deaths in Bergamo was up 568 per cent in March compared with the 2015-2019 average, making it Italy's worst-hit city in terms of deaths.

Its hospitals were overwhelmed by infected people and, with morgues unable to keep up, convoys of army trucks carrying away the dead became a chilling symbol of the global pandemic.

Bergamo province has reported 13,609 coronavirus cases, official data showed on Monday.”

[Ausmumof3]

3 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

Italy 🇮🇹 https://www.straitstimes.com/world/europe/over-half-of-people-tested-in-italys-bergamo-have-coronavirus-antibodies

“ROME (REUTERS) - More than half the residents tested in Italy's northern province of Bergamo have coronavirus antibodies, health authorities said on Monday (June 8), citing a sample survey.

Of 9,965 residents who had blood tests between April 23 and June 3, 57 per cent had antibodies indicating they had come into contact with the coronavirus, the survey showed.

Health authorities in Bergamo said the results were based on a "random" sample which was "sufficiently broad" to be a reliable indicator of how many people had been infected in the province, which became the epicentre of Italy's outbreak.

In a separate statement issued later, the Bergamo health agency said that most of those in the sample were residents of the worst-hit areas. Many had already been put under quarantine, the statement added.

Antibodies were found in just over 30 per cent of the 10,404 health operators tested although they are generally considered more at risk than other people.

In a report released in early May, national statistics institute ISTAT said the number of deaths in Bergamo was up 568 per cent in March compared with the 2015-2019 average, making it Italy's worst-hit city in terms of deaths.

Its hospitals were overwhelmed by infected people and, with morgues unable to keep up, convoys of army trucks carrying away the dead became a chilling symbol of the global pandemic.

Bergamo province has reported 13,609 coronavirus cases, official data showed on Monday.”

They should basically be at herd immunity or very close then!  That’s a good thing though horrific that the number of deaths was so high.

[Pen]

Dog detection:

 

very interesting to me:

“In our proof-of-concept study, two negative samples, according to our described inclusion criteria for negative samples, were marked positive by two dogs; the information was immediately sent to the concerned hospital through the anonymous samples codes, and PCRs that were redone on the patients gave positive results. As said, the dogs are sniffing for specific molecules induced by the SARS-CoV-2 virus presence and dogs have no reason to lie as long as there is no environmental disturbance during their work.”

 

so 2 patients had had false negatives by PCR test, but the dogs got it right

 

(They also learned that they have to be careful about male dogs falsely alerting to human females in eostrus cycle otoh.) 

4 dogs got 100% of samples identified correctly. 

 

 

[73349]

.

Edited October 2, 2020 by Carolina Wren

[TCB]

8 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

They should basically be at herd immunity or very close then!  That’s a good thing though horrific that the number of deaths was so high.

Is this the reliable antibody test they were doing? I feel so confused about these tests! I say a post, admittedly from a whacko source, saying that the CDC were saying there was up to a 50% false positive with some antibody test. The person who posted it was using it to say 50% of people diagnosed with CV were falsely positive lol so that part was ridiculous, since a different test entirely, but I have heard a number of different things about the antibody test. I keep hearing people say it picks up antibodies to other corona viruses still. However, when you read how many people are getting tested for antibodies and turning up negative, it must mean something that so many in Bergamo were positive. So probably good news!

[Pen]

2 hours ago, whitehawk said:

So after doing better and better from mid-May to June 4--and having been able to resume normal activities like doing laundry, buying groceries in person, and washing my car--I've relapsed.

No idea what's going on. Throw me your ideas. I'm going to call my doctor again, but with some reluctance given how little was accomplished via my previous care.

 

Have other known illnesses that give long up and downs been checked for? Mononucleosis, Lyme, etc?  Autoimmune conditions?  Mitochondrial problems?

 

If not CV19, not another long term ups and downs known illness, then options seem to be either that another Novel Microbe was released and has not been identified yet, or you have something like chronic fatigue syndrome (as in sick with something debilitating or what might be mitochondrial dysfunction, or the aftermath of unknown or uncertain cause.)  

Or maybe it *is* CV19 and maybe that can affect people like you are experiencing, but not test positive.  You might try the online support group for long tail CV19 and see if what you have seems to be what they have. 

 

My idea would be to try to rule out anything like Lyme that might be possible and be needing appropriate medicines.  If it isn’t something like that, where there’s a pharmaceutical treatment possible, then do whatever self help treatments you can trying to support your health. Supplements, herbs, lifestyle management...

I have had chronic health issues for decades and it is a major problem to live with, but it is what it is. One does what one can.   I suspect that CV19 will result in many more people in such circumstances.  

And there also seem to be quite a few people like you with CV19-like illnesses and aftermath but no positive test . 

 

 

[Pen]

@whitehawk  also, if you start feeling better again, don’t resume full normal activities.  Just do 1/4  the laundry. Or just go shopping once.  

Not laundry plus shopping plus car washing.

try to build up very slowly

Whatever you have, and even if you will be lucky and heal totally, visiting some sites that talk about how to live with a chronic condition that flares from overdoing (that is flares from what should seem normal or even reduced activity ) may help you.  

 

[Jean in Newcastle]

2 hours ago, whitehawk said:

So after doing better and better from mid-May to June 4--and having been able to resume normal activities like doing laundry, buying groceries in person, and washing my car--I've relapsed.

No idea what's going on. Throw me your ideas. I'm going to call my doctor again, but with some reluctance given how little was accomplished via my previous care.

What are your symptoms now?  Do you need to go to a specialist like a pulmonologist?  

[73349]

.

Edited October 2, 2020 by Carolina Wren

[TCB]

20 minutes ago, whitehawk said:

Symptoms since June 5: intermittent elevated temperature (still not over 100F), fatigue, cough with exertion (including talking while seated). I haven't had a high resting heart rate again, as far as I've noticed. Those few weeks without the cough were so nice. I have a telemed appointment with a PA Friday morning; the doctor apparently is only there on Tuesdays and Wednesdays and is booked for this week.

The doc has said she believes it's C19. Previous blood test ruled out inflammation, liver issues, I'm not sure what else (and the meds I tried before should have ruled out asthma, allergies, and bacterial infection). I think Lyme is flatly impossible given my symptoms (no joint pain, for example), and when and how it started (like a cold, at the same time that DS had all the same symptoms except the cough, and not after spending time outside). No flags for other conditions that I'm seeing (she asked about changes in appetite, for example).

I looked at clinicaltrials.gov last night and it does not appear that *anyone anywhere* is working on people who have already had mild symptoms for an extended time.

Before I relapsed, my hypothesis was that I just needed to re-grow respiratory cells, and that's why it took so long to stop coughing. I really did return gradually and gently to a more normal activity level, and DH was still making dinner, emptying the dishwasher, and taking care of the kitty litter. I only do my own laundry, not DH's or DS's. I made no effort to exercise beyond a three-block amble after dinner, and my doc had encouraged me to be active as tolerated.

I will probably go looking for the Slack channel. I've never used Slack before.

@Jokerhow are you?

Did you ever have a chest CT? It should be possible to see C19 changes on a CT.

My mother had ongoing pretty debilitating respiratory symptoms some years ago. She was treated for many different things, infection, asthma etc. She had a CT scan that was suspicious and had further investigations but just could not get better. My mom is one of the most energetic people I know and it was really worrying to see her so bogged down by it. One day she sat on my couch and cried because she felt so bad. We are still not sure what was going on but wonder if it was some atypical infection. She was prescribed an antibiotic by a dr here in my area and after that she seemed to improve and gradually go back to normal. She still has a cough at times but is well, so I think she is just more susceptible to respiratory things than before. She is in her late 70s. It was probably about 10 years ago when this was going on.

[vonfirmath]

12 minutes ago, TCB said:

Did you ever have a chest CT? It should be possible to see C19 changes on a CT.

My mother had ongoing pretty debilitating respiratory symptoms some years ago. She was treated for many different things, infection, asthma etc. She had a CT scan that was suspicious and had further investigations but just could not get better. My mom is one of the most energetic people I know and it was really worrying to see her so bogged down by it. One day she sat on my couch and cried because she felt so bad. We are still not sure what was going on but wonder if it was some atypical infection. She was prescribed an antibiotic by a dr here in my area and after that she seemed to improve and gradually go back to normal. She still has a cough at times but is well, so I think she is just more susceptible to respiratory things than before. She is in her late 70s. It was probably about 10 years ago when this was going on.

My husband had something like this about 8 years ago.

Before that he NEVER Got sick -- he had pneumonia or bronchitis at that time that he resisted going to the doctor over, was sick for a long time and finally went. But ever since, almost every year he gets sick with something respiratory. We think it damaged his lungs and made him more susceptible.

 

[prairiewindmomma]

Totally willing to believe it is c19, but I would also look for a rule out of Lyme and other vector borne disease, fungal infections of the lung (x-ray would be the rule-out), and I’d start charting your own peak flow and temperature to see if you can see any pattern of change there.

 

 

[73349]

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Edited October 2, 2020 by Carolina Wren

[Spryte]

22 minutes ago, whitehawk said:

I had a chest x-ray back in March. It was clear.

I've recorded my temperatures. No pattern evident except it's not over 37.7 C. I'm in an air-conditioned house; the ambient temperature has very little variation.

The pattern with coughing is that if I sit still and stay quiet, I don't cough; if I'm talking or moving at length, I cough (same indoors and outdoors, morning and evening, hungry and full, etc.). A bit of cardiomyopathy had crossed my mind before I started getting better, but that shouldn't disappear for 3 weeks and reappear. I don't have a peak flow meter, but a pulse ox has never shown me less than 98, usually 99, no matter how bad it's gotten.

When this all began, way back, did you ever (even intermittently) run a high fever?  Or was it always low?  Asking because of the vector borne illness question above.  Maybe rule out Babesia, too.

Sounds more like CV, though.

We have friends who have been terribly ill for 8+ weeks.  It’s CV19, but no hospital time.  Your symptoms sound so similar. You are longer than that though, right?  And were well (or at least improving) before this relapse?

I hope you get some answers and relief soon.

[73349]

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Edited October 2, 2020 by Carolina Wren

[Pen]

2 hours ago, whitehawk said:

Symptoms since June 5: intermittent elevated temperature (still not over 100F, ETA: currently 99.3 F or 37.39C, while my normal is ~97.5F), fatigue, cough with exertion (including talking while seated). I haven't had a high resting heart rate again, as far as I've noticed. Those few weeks without the cough were so nice. I have a telemed appointment with a PA Friday morning; the doctor apparently is only there on Tuesdays and Wednesdays and is booked for this week.

The doc has said she believes it's C19. Previous blood test ruled out inflammation, liver issues, I'm not sure what else (and the meds I tried before should have ruled out asthma, allergies, and bacterial infection). I think Lyme is flatly impossible given my symptoms (no joint pain, for example), and when and how it started (like a cold, at the same time that DS had all the same symptoms except the cough, and not after spending time outside).

 

Lack of being outside and start like a cold at same same time as son do suggest virus, not Lyme. (Not everyone gets joint pain with Lyme.)

2 hours ago, whitehawk said:

No flags for other conditions that I'm seeing (she asked about changes in appetite, for example).

I looked at clinicaltrials.gov last night and it does not appear that *anyone anywhere* is working on people who have already had mild symptoms for an extended time.

Before I relapsed, my hypothesis was that I just needed to re-grow respiratory cells, and that's why it took so long to stop coughing. I really did return gradually and gently to a more normal activity level, and DH was still making dinner, emptying the dishwasher, and taking care of the kitty litter. I only do my own laundry, not DH's or DS's. I made no effort to exercise beyond a three-block amble after dinner, and my doc had encouraged me to be active as tolerated.

 

Suggestion: Cut whatever you tried by at least ~ 2/3 when next starting...  1/3 laundry. 1 block amble.  You seem to have been more active than tolerated .  Maybe only 1/2 block amble. 

 

Have you tried whatever home care for cv19 you can do such as home care part of MATH protocols?

 

Have you tried zinc plus Quercetin, Vitamin C or Vitamin D?  Elderberry? NAC?  Etc?  ( I sometimes can get rid of a virus with a big dose of D. )  

 

Lung supportive herbs? Olive oil?

 

 

 

 

[Pen]

10 minutes ago, whitehawk said:

Never over 99.9F, where the threshold of what's a true fever is generally considered 100F (~37.8 C). And truly, I'm indoorsy, not even a gardener at all (to my neighbors' disappointment).

I looked back at my calendar, and we went for a walk outside the aquarium Feb. 28, for maybe half an hour--winter here, so with long pants and jackets on. I'm not seeing any other time we went into a forest this year; we were busy. We do check for ticks, as DS was bitten by a Lone Star tick in I think 2013 (no ill effects, fortunately), and I'm from the area from which Lyme Disease gets its name.

By contrast, among the three of us, we were in 17-22 different indoor locations (depending on where DH ate lunch) in the area, excluding home, between March 1-7, and we know community transmission of C19 was taking place in our area by February 26. For one thing, I was trying to get all our errands done before we had a big outbreak.

I  was sick from March 9 until about May 15 (but the symptoms that were just like a cold, such as sore throat and stuffy nose, were gone within 14 days; DS was only sick ~11 days).  68 days. So this is why I supposed I mostly needed to make new cells to replace damaged ones.

From May 16 through June 4, I was improving and feeling really well, more energy and no coughing and no fast pulse, with only a high temperature May 24. Roughly 21 days well.

Now I've been feeling ill again for 5 days.

 

 

Not sure what lung cell new cell growth time is, but it seems like 21 days would have been enough if that were it.

could this be a completely different thing? Rather than relapse?

 

or you may have virus in you that goes into and out of dormant mode    

[73349]

 

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Edited October 2, 2020 by Carolina Wren

[Pen]

2 minutes ago, whitehawk said:

 

 

Ones you migh have around for cooking reasons could be oregano, sage, mint, oregano, maybe rosemary, licorice (real herb, not candy).

you might have others growing around you possibly — like where I am plantain leaf, lobelia, and Oregon grape are local possibilities.

Cinnamon, ginger, turmeric maybe — I haven’t looked specifically about lung support. 

 

I’d look at Nitric Oxide Breathing/ humming approaches too. And I might do some resting in sun and as much greenery if possible, weather and living circumstances permitting. 

 

If coughing were not productive I’d probably use cough drops. 

Zinc in a good form like piccolinate, glycinate etc, with Quercitin because zinc seems so very specific to inactivating Coronaviruses—***but only if along with an ionophore like HCQ or Quercitin.  Quercitin can be helpful in itself. 

[BeachGal]

On 6/7/2020 at 11:30 AM, Pen said:

Do you know of NAC dangers?

I thought it was quite a safe supplement at ~1000mg /day.  

 

For something like Covid, it's probably very safe if taken for even a few years. However, it can also cause problems, most likely when it's taken as a supplement for very long periods of time. Here's a blog entry by Derek Lowe about NAC that explains the pros and cons of what is known about it (for now):

https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2019/10/04/n-acetyl-cysteine-a-warning-shot

For Covid prevention, though, my family and I are definitely taking it. And if we get Covid, we will be taking NAC for at least three months after because the infection appears to "keep something going" even once the virus clears. Maybe the immune system is damaged in some way and struggles to get back to normal? That might explain the multiple-relapse cycles that some people are experiencing.

It really looks like the virus is causing clots in multiple ways. That is not good and not easy to treat. It is looking like a therapeutic (bigger) dose is the way to go for people who are getting intubated. Heparin might not be the ideal choice either. Probably a more powerful drug. I forget the name of it. The weird, atypical clotting that they're seeing is worrisome.