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3 minutes ago, lewelma said:

I know all lockdowns are different, is anyone else in a lockdown with a 'bubble' concept? NZ has asked each of us to identify our bubble - a small group of people who physically interact but don't come in contact with others.  So our bubble includes our family of 4 and our 65 year old neighbor, but not his partner who lives across town. The Prime Minister's bubble includes her partner, toddler, the Finance Minister, and 4 staff members. The Finance Minister and staff members' families are NOT included in this bubble, so they will only be interacting by video. The Nursing Homes are considered a bubble, so staff have moved in voluntarily and are only interacting with their families by video.  I've also read about a group house for 22 university students acting as a bubble.  If they are dating anyone outside this bubble, they can only meet by video. Basically, bubbles do NOT overlap.

This seems such an obvious idea to us since it was implemented 10 days ago, but when we have discussed it with family living in various states in the USA, it was not a concept that they were familiar with.  

 

We haven't done it. I think the reason for it is that we never had the chance to do containment at all -- due to the ridiculously low levels of testing, it hasn't been possible to find ALL the cases anywhere. Tragically, NY started ramping up its testing abilities before they had found cases, but by the time we had found cases, there were ACTUALLY lots of cases we hadn't found due to, again, ridiculously low testing. 

I think it's an excellent concept for containment. 

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DS got home 3 hours ago!  ❤️❤️

Update-  my youngest is not only short of breath, coughing, dizzy, nausaues, and with headache-  she is also confused.  I called our doctor and talked with him and she is going to be going to the ER.

That's not a blanket right.  If my religion required human sacrifice, I can't practice it.  If my religion required sexual assault, I can't practice it. Freedom of religion isn't a blanket right

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15 minutes ago, lewelma said:

The peer-reviewed articles linked to above stated 5-7 months for a late, loose lockdown, and 6-7 weeks for a early, tight lock down.  

This is not boding well for universities in the USA reopening for the fall semester, as American has opted for the first option. 

Yeah, this is where we should have done this IN FEBRUARY. People who were really worried about the economy should have thought about that, shouldn't they have? 

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Just now, CuriousMomof3 said:

 

How are people in NZ getting food?

We can go to the grocery store but can't interact with anyone.  Staff wear masks, we wash hands, and do 2 meter physical distancing, only 100 people allowed in the store at a time (and these are very big grocery stores). 

The groceries have prioritized delivery to bubbles who contain an at-risk person.

When I talked to my dad about the Jacinda's bubble, he said, "but what about her staff's family?" And he was really surprised that they were excluded from the bubble. From his point of view (and he has taught a class in public health called "plagues and politics" so knows a thing or two), people can physically isolate, but yet the bubbles interact by a person or two crossing into different bubbles, and thus linking them together and lessening the impact of lockdowns. 

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2 minutes ago, lewelma said:

I know all lockdowns are different, is anyone else in a lockdown with a 'bubble' concept? NZ has asked each of us to identify our bubble - a small group of people who physically interact but don't come in contact with others.  So our bubble includes our family of 4 and our 65 year old neighbor, but not his partner who lives across town. The Prime Minister's bubble includes her partner, toddler, the Finance Minister, and 4 staff members. The Finance Minister and staff members' families are NOT included in this bubble, so they will only be interacting by video. The Nursing Homes are considered a bubble, so staff have moved in voluntarily and are only interacting with their families by video.  I've also read about a group house for 22 university students acting as a bubble.  If they are dating anyone outside this bubble, they can only meet by video. Basically, bubbles do NOT overlap.

This seems such an obvious idea to us since it was implemented 10 days ago, but when we have discussed it with family living in various states in the USA, it was not a concept that they were familiar with.  

 

We have no such thing here because most of us still come into contact with so many others. Like, I would love for our bubble to include my kids' best friend, but his mom drives an Uber/Lyft and does deliveries for Uber Eats, Instacart, etc. So, there's no way, I am having my kids play with her kid when his mother is in contact with the public like that. Likewise, we run a marine business that is still considered essential because we fix marine vessels. My husband has contact (as little as possible in person, and taking a ton of precautions) with our independent contractors, our clients, marina personnel, and our suppliers. So, I could also understand from her perspective why she wouldn't want her kid to play with mine (she isn't as strict as me and has suggested that our kids play together). So, the U.S. has left much to individual discretion, and has rolled all of this out across 50 states in a piecemeal and ridiculously haphazard fashion, all in the name of federalism, which is just one of the many reasons why some states will end up doing much better than others/why so many people will die per capital in some states vs others. Yay America! 

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I read a very similar article behind a paywall in The Telegraph yesterday and just spotted it in the Daily Mail.....yes I know but the main bits are identical, the mail is just significantly longer with pictures.  Since the main points are the same I am linking the one everyone can read......... a team of German researchers are doing research in the hardest hit part of Germany to try and figure out in real life how the virus is spreading.  They have tested doorknobs, animal fur etc in patients homes and found no virus on those surfaces.  At this point they are concluding only person to person but very early.  
 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8182767/Scientist-casts-doubt-coronavirus-spread.html

Interesting and somewhat calming......that said neither Dh or I plan to stop wearing gloves to open Amazon packages. 😉 My hand washing protocols are still in place , it’s just made me feel a bit less stressed about one mistake and someone touches their face and infects us all! 

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3 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

MA just today announced they were going to start rigorous contact tracing.  A little late, I'd think, but better than not doing it at all?

 

I don't think it's too late. You're locked down, right? That means at some point you expect to have cases start dropping, too. And it'd be good to ramp up the ability to figure out how to operate amidst this. 

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5 minutes ago, square_25 said:

 

We haven't done it. I think the reason for it is that we never had the chance to do containment at all

Seems to me that it has to do with making the lockdown actually effective, regardless of when it is implemented.  I'm sure there is some sort of graph theory that could study this (just a small project to keep your mind busy 🙂 ).  If 1% of our bubbles overlap (NZ) vs 50% overlap because the concept has not even been explained to the public (USA), the length of the lockdown would be dramatically different, regardless of the starting point.. 

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1 minute ago, mumto2 said:

I read a very similar article behind a paywall in The Telegraph yesterday and just spotted it in the Daily Mail.....yes I know but the main bits are identical, the mail is just significantly longer with pictures.  Since the main points are the same I am linking the one everyone can read......... a team of German researchers are doing research in the hardest hit part of Germany to try and figure out in real life how the virus is spreading.  They have tested doorknobs, animal fur etc in patients homes and found no virus on those surfaces.  At this point they are concluding only person to person but very early.  
 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8182767/Scientist-casts-doubt-coronavirus-spread.html

Interesting and somewhat calming......that said neither Dh or I plan to stop wearing gloves to open Amazon packages. 😉 My hand washing protocols are still in place , it’s just made me feel a bit less stressed about one mistake and someone touches their face and infects us all! 

 

Ooooh, super interesting. There's SO MUCH we don't know yet. 

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3 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

 

We have no such thing here because most of us still come into contact with so many others. Like, I would love for our bubble to include my kids' best friend, but his mom drives an Uber/Lyft and does deliveries for Uber Eats, Instacart, etc. 

Ah, well in NZ all of those services are considered nonessential, so are not in operation. 

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1 minute ago, lewelma said:

Seems to me that it has to do with making the lockdown actually effective, regardless of when it is implemented.  I'm sure there is some sort of graph theory that could study this (just a small project to keep your mind busy 🙂 ).  If 1% of our bubbles overlap (NZ) vs 50% overlap because the concept has not even been explained to the public (USA), the length of the lockdown would be dramatically different, regardless of the starting point.. 

 

I've certainly been using this idea. But I think that things are just FRANTIC here, at least in NY. So really everyone is told to keep their bubbles to their family, as much as possible, except for people in essential jobs. 

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Just now, lewelma said:

Ah, well in NZ all of those services are considered nonessential, so are not in operation. 

What is in operation? I know around here, transit workers and probably taxis are working, but they really are essential in NYC... 

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Just now, square_25 said:

What is in operation? I know around here, transit workers and probably taxis are working, but they really are essential in NYC... 

Grocery stores (100 person limit) and pharmacies (1 person limit) and dairy's (1 person limit)

Hospitals (but not GPs -- all virtual)

Police

Trucking, ferries and docks to transport essential goods (food and medicine)

No retail online stores except liquor 🙂 

No restaurants, no carry out either

Buses for essential workers or people with no other way to get to the grocery store.  They are now free, the driver has a mask (we do have a lot of masks here), and I've never seen more than 5 people on a bus at a time.

Online office supplies (but you can only order if you are an essential store)

Online computers/communication equipment (but only for job purposes)

Our local gin distillery is open because it is now making hand sanitizer!

The N95 mask manufacturer!!

The aluminium smelter because it would take way way too much power to shut down and restart

That is about all I can come up with.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, lewelma said:

Grocery stores (100 person limit) and pharmacies (1 person limit) and dairy's (1 person limit)

Hospitals (but not GPs -- all virtual)

Police

Trucking, ferries and docks to transport essential goods (food and medicine)

No retail online stores except liquor 🙂 

No restaurants, no carry out either

Buses for essential workers or people with no other way to get to the grocery store.  They are now free, the driver has a mask (we do have a lot of masks here), and I've never seen more than 5 people on a bus at a time.

Online office supplies (but you can only order if you are an essential store)

Online computers/communication equipment (but only for job purposes)

Our local gin distillery is open because it is now making hand sanitizer!

The N95 mask manufacturer!!

The aluminium smelter because it would take way way too much power to shut down and restart

That is about all I can come up with.

 

 

 

Yeah, that sounds excellent for containment. I really wish NY got its testing up before this hit... I know I keep harping on it, but really, they had the right idea. They were ramping up testing before they knew of a single case. All for naught.

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Total US deaths doubled again today. We’ve been maintaining a pretty steady rate of increase. 😞

U.S. Deaths
 
April 3 7400 3 days to double (7296)
March 31 3900 3 days to double (3648)
March 28 2200 3 days to double (1824)
March 25 1030 2 days to double (912)
March 23 550 3 days to double (456)
March 20 250 3 days to double (228)
March 17 110 3 days to double (114)
March 14 57
 
(based on worldometers data)
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1 hour ago, lewelma said:

I know all lockdowns are different, is anyone else in a lockdown with a 'bubble' concept? NZ has asked each of us to identify our bubble - a small group of people who physically interact but don't come in contact with others.  So our bubble includes our family of 4 and our 65 year old neighbor, but not his partner who lives across town. The Prime Minister's bubble includes her partner, toddler, the Finance Minister, and 4 staff members. The Finance Minister and staff members' families are NOT included in this bubble, so they will only be interacting by video. The Nursing Homes are considered a bubble, so staff have moved in voluntarily and are only interacting with their families by video.  I've also read about a group house for 22 university students acting as a bubble.  If they are dating anyone outside this bubble, they can only meet by video. Basically, bubbles do NOT overlap.

This seems such an obvious idea to us since it was implemented 10 days ago, but when we have discussed it with family living in various states in the USA, it was not a concept that they were familiar with.  

This is I think what I was trying to get at when I suggested people choose one friend or family for exercise and indoor play dates as long as that family will also stick to the one friend-family rule.  

for us because dh is in a role that’s still deemed essential work and places him in contact with a lot of people I think we need to isolate a bit more seriously.  I have seen my sis once and grocery shopped that’s it.  I don’t want to risk passing on something he picked up.

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33 minutes ago, lovelearnandlive said:

Total US deaths doubled again today. We’ve been maintaining a pretty steady rate of increase. 😞

U.S. Deaths
 
April 3 7400 3 days to double (7296)
March 31 3900 3 days to double (3648)
March 28 2200 3 days to double (1824)
March 25 1030 2 days to double (912)
March 23 550 3 days to double (456)
March 20 250 3 days to double (228)
March 17 110 3 days to double (114)
March 14 57
 
(based on worldometers data)

Lockdown measures take 12-14 days to really take effect.  Italy has started to see decline in new cases about two weeks in.  Although that was after the stricter lockdown measures not the soft version they started with.    I hope US will start seeing that in zones that locked down harder in a week or so?

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1 hour ago, square_25 said:

 

Ooooh, super interesting. There's SO MUCH we don't know yet. 

Hmm weird.  Both a shopping centre and MacDonald near the airport here have had cases which I’m presuming most likely link to the airport outbreak.

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Bubbles.

No. 

It would be nice to have something like that . 

My son (only child) had worked out getting together with just one friend, but unfortunately without a bubble concept, one friend meant also his family and all contacts of his family and all their contacts, on and on.

 

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13 hours ago, square_25 said:

 

Because we have a DRASTIC shortage of equipment. I doubt more than 5% (being generous, 20%) of the masks are going elsewhere, because that would be an immense quantity of masks. Doctors and nurses are having to reuse PPE. There's NO WAY that tracking down the ones that are being sold on the black market is going to solve the problem. What would solve the problem is finding more equipment. 

Yes, anyone caught doing this should be punished severely. But given that the federal government could be ramping up PPE production and is not, and given that we will NOT have enough masks even if we find every single criminal that has done this, that's just a distraction. 

I saw one nurse interviewed that said shortages went back to last year.  So not just the pandemic causing the issue.  😞

From everything I read online - years of cdc/hhs guidelines for pandemic preparedness guidelines for state and health systems and employers- the guideline is 6-8weeks of supplies and to have your distributors/suppliers lined up etc.  They went over scenarios of hoarding and price gouging and how much better and cheaper it is to prepare before time.  That states would be expected to be mostly self-reliant in a national pandemic.  I’ve even seen calculators online to determine how much ppe/masks//gloves etc you would need. So I’m thinking that many (some? Idk)  states and local governments or hospitals did not follow through on the planning recommendations, and that is why there is such a drastic shortage. 😦That 6-8 week supply would have bought time for manufacturing to ramp up replacements.  Many lessons being learned a very hard way and hurting many innocent people. 😞  

That said, I’m glad to see they’re cracking down on price gouges and hoarders.  Every bit helps at this point.  What a hard time for our healthcare workers.  They are phenomenal.

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1 hour ago, lewelma said:

I know all lockdowns are different, is anyone else in a lockdown with a 'bubble' concept? NZ has asked each of us to identify our bubble - a small group of people who physically interact but don't come in contact with others.  So our bubble includes our family of 4 and our 65 year old neighbor, but not his partner who lives across town. The Prime Minister's bubble includes her partner, toddler, the Finance Minister, and 4 staff members. The Finance Minister and staff members' families are NOT included in this bubble, so they will only be interacting by video. The Nursing Homes are considered a bubble, so staff have moved in voluntarily and are only interacting with their families by video.  I've also read about a group house for 22 university students acting as a bubble.  If they are dating anyone outside this bubble, they can only meet by video. Basically, bubbles do NOT overlap.

This seems such an obvious idea to us since it was implemented 10 days ago, but when we have discussed it with family living in various states in the USA, it was not a concept that they were familiar with.  

I think this is what was mentioned before in this thread - having one family to be in contact with, and that family also commits to only being in contact with yours. Ah, it was brought up when the subject of play dates came up.

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1 hour ago, mumto2 said:

I read a very similar article behind a paywall in The Telegraph yesterday and just spotted it in the Daily Mail.....yes I know but the main bits are identical, the mail is just significantly longer with pictures.  Since the main points are the same I am linking the one everyone can read......... a team of German researchers are doing research in the hardest hit part of Germany to try and figure out in real life how the virus is spreading.  They have tested doorknobs, animal fur etc in patients homes and found no virus on those surfaces.  At this point they are concluding only person to person but very early.  
 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8182767/Scientist-casts-doubt-coronavirus-spread.html

Interesting and somewhat calming......that said neither Dh or I plan to stop wearing gloves to open Amazon packages. 😉 My hand washing protocols are still in place , it’s just made me feel a bit less stressed about one mistake and someone touches their face and infects us all! 

On the flip side it would mean all the world health organisation emphasis on hand washing instead of mask wearing was just plain wrong.  Which is kind of depressing because they’ve been pushing it hard for six weeks or so.

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10 minutes ago, Renai said:

I think this is what was mentioned before in this thread - having one family to be in contact with, and that family also commits to only being in contact with yours. Ah, it was brought up when the subject of play dates came up.

So individuals are thinking about it, but it is not any stated government policy. I thought with 50 states, there might be one that clarified what a lockdown actually looks like to be the most effective. 

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6 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

On the flip side it would mean all the world health organisation emphasis on hand washing instead of mask wearing was just plain wrong.  Which is kind of depressing because they’ve been pushing it hard for six weeks or so.

Yep, the WHO being wrong is possible.....all I could think of was the choirs, the close contact spread in Taxis etc that we know is happening might just indicate these initial results might be right.  I like that they are testing in real living conditions not labs.   One thing I know the Telegraph article mentioned ( sort of skimmed the Mail) was a drinking game with shared glasses in large groups was played in Italy by the skiers.  This Researcher felt that was the point that spread the virus from there all over........

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2 minutes ago, mumto2 said:

Yep, the WHO being wrong is possible.....all I could think of was the choirs, the close contact spread in Taxis etc that we know is happening might just indicate these initial results might be right.  I like that they are testing in real living conditions not labs.   One thing I know the Telegraph article mentioned ( sort of skimmed the Mail) was a drinking game with shared glasses in large groups was played in Italy by the skiers.  This Researcher felt that was the point that spread the virus from there all over........

Yeah interesting and so much could play into it.  The sick couple that went to the auction here don’t appear to have caused new cases (unless there is a hidden train of transmission that’s been missed).  It may also depend how far into the illness people are as to what level of shedding is going on and whether people are experiencing the gastro symptoms.  It may also depend on effectiveness of cleaning protocols in the homes of the infected people.  (Ie. Could be the German thoroughness and efficiency)

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4 minutes ago, lewelma said:

So individuals are thinking about it, but it is not any stated government policy. I thought with 50 states, there might be one that clarified what a lockdown actually looks like to be the most effective. 

I know my family is including our neighbor in our circle as far as being willing to suspend distancing with if needed.  We are it for her too.  That said only hubby has been in her house etc........unfortunately she may have really hurt herself yesterday, back injury, might be a ruptured disc.  Sort of taking this day by day in case she needs medical care..  She does have an adult son in area but believe his job is essential so he has been staying away intentionally. 

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6 hours ago, square_25 said:

 

That sounds lovely. If only I didn't have to make the trade between ordering food online and not going out and getting veggies... it's been a while since I've been able to grab veggies from Whole Foods. 

 

We are blessed to have InstaCart here.  I used it last night for the first time and at 8am a delivery from Sprouts was on my doorstep!  Fresh veggies, chicken, and ice cream 🙂

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https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-04/qantas-confirms-50-staff-including-pilots-have-coronavirus/12121522?pfmredir=sm
 

adelaide airport linked cluster with Qantas is now up to 50 including pilots and cabin crew.  Some are international but were using all the correct controls.  Doesn’t look good for Qantas given they disciplined someone for speaking out about safety concerns about the protective measures for coronavirus.  I’m also wondering if this may be widespread through other airports but detected here due to a bit more testing going on.

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2 hours ago, lewelma said:

I know all lockdowns are different, is anyone else in a lockdown with a 'bubble' concept? NZ has asked each of us to identify our bubble - a small group of people who physically interact but don't come in contact with others.  So our bubble includes our family of 4 and our 65 year old neighbor, but not his partner who lives across town. The Prime Minister's bubble includes her partner, toddler, the Finance Minister, and 4 staff members. The Finance Minister and staff members' families are NOT included in this bubble, so they will only be interacting by video. The Nursing Homes are considered a bubble, so staff have moved in voluntarily and are only interacting with their families by video.  I've also read about a group house for 22 university students acting as a bubble.  If they are dating anyone outside this bubble, they can only meet by video. Basically, bubbles do NOT overlap.

This seems such an obvious idea to us since it was implemented 10 days ago, but when we have discussed it with family living in various states in the USA, it was not a concept that they were familiar with.  

 

I think the bubble concept must be the part of the instructions they are attempting to transmit telepathically. Because only a rare few tend to comprehend the concept. 🙄

Seriously, it takes a bubble. You are fortunate NZ leaders are actually taking the time to go explain it clearly to the population. 

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I also don’t think our gov are going for the bubble concept at all.  They are going for a hardcore lockdown on social or recreation activity with relatively free flow on economic activity. 

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5 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I also don’t think our gov are going for the bubble concept at all.  They are going for a hardcore lockdown on social or recreation activity with relatively free flow on economic activity. 

 

I was being facetious above, because I am frustrated that people (not most on board here) can’t seem to understand the importance of reducing contacts as much as possible. 

Truth be told, I think across the US, leaders were trying to squeak the best out of both worlds - lowering spread and preserving the economy - so we didn’t tackle this hard and fast. 

And we seem to have many more people involved in essential businesses. So some folks just have to go out. 

Edited by Seasider too
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OMG, did you guys just see that America stole 200,000 masks that Germany had bought and paid for?!?! Apparently produced in China by 3M, and stolen at transit in Thailand. 😞 

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6 minutes ago, lewelma said:

OMG, did you guys just see that America stole 200,000 masks that Germany had bought and paid for?!?! Apparently produced in China by 3M, and stolen at transit in Thailand. 😞 

RFI is reporting that the US bought ones intended for France as they sat on the tarmac.

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16 minutes ago, lewelma said:

OMG, did you guys just see that America stole 200,000 masks that Germany had bought and paid for?!?! Apparently produced in China by 3M, and stolen at transit in Thailand. 😞 

3m said they didnt have a record of an order by China. 

https://www.wsj.com/articles/germany-cries-foul-over-berlin-bound-masks-diverted-to-u-s-11585943440?

There has been mention of a lot of black market deals going on, which the administration is trying to stop.  i haven't found much information on that as of yet. 

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😞 News link https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/coronavirus/contra-costa-county-issues-mass-isolation-and-quarantine-order-for-confirmed-cases/2267324/

Press release https://813dcad3-2b07-4f3f-a25e-23c48c566922.filesusr.com/ugd/84606e_b15289a73ac5441b874199b4459170bd.pdf

Contra Costa County Issues Mass Isolation and Quarantine Order for Confirmed Cases

A mass isolation and quarantine order for residents with novel coronavirus and their close contacts was issued Friday by Contra Costa County Health Officer Dr. Chris Farnitano.

The order is intended to slow the spread of COVID-19, protect those most vulnerable and keep the county's health care workers from being overwhelmed, Farnitano said.

"The county's public health system no longer has the capacity to individually notify and track everyone with COVID-19 and their close contacts who may have been exposed to the virus," officials said in a news release.

The county, which had no cases at the beginning of March, has seen the count grow to 307 confirmed cases and five deaths as of Friday.

"We've reached a critical point in the COVID-19 crisis here in Contra Costa," Dr. Farnitano said. "Our resources are stretched extremely thin and business as usual is not an option. We believe this mass order is a creative and effective way of getting the job done to keep the sick isolated from others."”

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40 minutes ago, lewelma said:

OMG, did you guys just see that America stole 200,000 masks that Germany had bought and paid for?!?! Apparently produced in China by 3M, and stolen at transit in Thailand. 😞 

 

The president invoked a power that he's allowed to invoke which basically says the government can force American companies to make certain products that are then to be used by the U.S. It's not considered stealing, and people have been complaining for weeks for him to use this power. Now that he is, people have problems with it. 

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58 minutes ago, lewelma said:

OMG, did you guys just see that America stole 200,000 masks that Germany had bought and paid for?!?! Apparently produced in China by 3M, and stolen at transit in Thailand. 😞 

 

16 minutes ago, kdsuomi said:

 

The president invoked a power that he's allowed to invoke which basically says the government can force American companies to make certain products that are then to be used by the U.S. It's not considered stealing, and people have been complaining for weeks for him to use this power. Now that he is, people have problems with it. 

The President invoked the Defense Production Act, which allows the administration to force a company to prioritize the U.S. government over competing orders.

The administration is invoking the law to compel 3M to send to the United States masks made in factories overseas and to stop exporting masks the company manufactures in the United States.

- Copied from WaPo.

(slang for invocation of DPA is "nationalization" of a private company, though it is not technically considered that)

Under the DPA law, the U.S. government can make contracts with companies and "require acceptance and performance of such contracts" to prioritize the production of "scarce and critical material."

Edited by mathnerd
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I got my info from the New Zealand media.  So it is definitely not playing well here, legal or no in the US.

Is it legal from the point of view of international trade? Is US is repaying Germany? 

Under the DPA law, the U.S. government can make contracts with companies and "require acceptance and performance of such contracts" to prioritize the production of "scarce and critical material."

This sounds like future contracts.  Are they allowed to force the breaking of current contracts? And apparently they did not give Germany any notice.  I'm sorry, but that is seriously not cool. Aren't the US and Germany allies?

Edited by lewelma
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7 minutes ago, lewelma said:

I got my info from the New Zealand media.  So it is definitely not playing well here, legal or no in the US.

Is it legal from the point of view of international trade? Is US is repaying Germany? 

 

 

This sounds like future contracts.  Are they allowed to force the breaking of current contracts? And apparently they did not give Germany any notice.  I'm sorry, but that is seriously not cool. Aren't the US and Germany allies?

 

https://theintercept.com/2020/04/01/coronavirus-medical-supplies-export/

the common USA view is that selling/sending critically needed supplies overseas when US doctors and nurses are dying and first responders are out of commission sick and on quarantines (and also perhaps dying) due to lack is seriously uncool

other places apparently had already closed down their own supplies that they needed much earlier 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/daviddisalvo/2020/03/30/i-spent-a-day-in-the-coronavirus-driven-feeding-frenzy-of-n95-mask-sellers-and-buyers-and-this-is-what-i-learned/

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There's a pretty huge difference between placing an order and ordering a company to produce PPE for US purposes and doing what he did, which was essentially stealing orders on their way to Germany and Canada that had been paid for and promised.  (Which, not only had he not invoked the Defense Act until Thursday, but he hadn't placed orders.)  The first is completely legitimate.  The second is basically an act of piracy.  Very uncool.  

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I have been reading for weeks about various European countries taking each other's shipments of PPE at borders.  The worst one, to me, was Germany supposedly stealing a shipment paid for by Italy when Italy was at the worst of their crisis and Germany was well off, infection wise.

I'm not sure how much of it is true and how much is export controls to preserve their own supply with huge global demand. The reporting may be biased and inflammatory as well.  I didn't link any of the stories since I wasn't sure of their accuracy or sourcing, but I saw dozens of stories along these lines involving several different countries.

I think in the future every country will want to make sure they have local manufacturing for this essentials, because there are obviously problems when huge global demand hits at once and everyone is trying to look out for their own country's interest. (Although people tend to forget after a few years...)

Edited by ElizabethB
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2 hours ago, mathnerd said:

 

The President invoked the Defense Production Act, which allows the administration to force a company to prioritize the U.S. government over competing orders.

The administration is invoking the law to compel 3M to send to the United States masks made in factories overseas and to stop exporting masks the company manufactures in the United States.

- Copied from WaPo.

(slang for invocation of DPA is "nationalization" of a private company, though it is not technically considered that)

Under the DPA law, the U.S. government can make contracts with companies and "require acceptance and performance of such contracts" to prioritize the production of "scarce and critical material."

And this is why I don’t support foreign ownership of significant assets in our country.  But no gov ever seems to go with that.  Mega farms, power networks, ports go to the highest bidder.

i don’t blame America for doing what they can to look after their own citizens but it will cause a problem.  

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2 hours ago, lewelma said:

I got my info from the New Zealand media.  So it is definitely not playing well here, legal or no in the US.

Is it legal from the point of view of international trade? Is US is repaying Germany? 

 

 

This sounds like future contracts.  Are they allowed to force the breaking of current contracts? And apparently they did not give Germany any notice.  I'm sorry, but that is seriously not cool. Aren't the US and Germany allies?

It’s being reported the same way here.

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Sorry, sounds like my comments are political. I'm not in the American news, and didn't/don't understand their laws/politics. NZ is exporting masks to those who need them, but obviously that is because we are in a better position. I'm so sorry, everyone, for what you are going through. There are no clear ethical decisions in this horrific situation. 😞 

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I love the concept of bubbles! I don’t know anyone local that doesn’t have at least 1 household member with an essential job though, which pops it right there. My household has essential volunteers who haven’t really had prolonged contact with anyone so far, but that could happen at any time, making us un-bubble worthy.

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10 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

I love the concept of bubbles! I don’t know anyone local that doesn’t have at least 1 household member with an essential job though, which pops it right there. My household has essential volunteers who haven’t really had prolonged contact with anyone so far, but that could happen at any time, making us un-bubble worthy.

Not how bubbles actually work here. For the people in your bubble, you can be closer than 2 meters to, you can share a toilet and kitchen with them, and you don't have to wear protective gear around them. When you go work in an essential service, your employer is required to give you protective gear or have you 2 meters away from other employees/customers.  People you work with are not in your bubble.

The idea of the bubble is to keep *close* interactions in clearly-defined separate units and to not allow them to overlap.  This is the core feature of our lockdown.

Edited by lewelma
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43 minutes ago, lewelma said:

Not how bubbles actually work here. For the people in your bubble, you can be closer than 2 meters to, you can share a toilet and kitchen with them, and you don't have to wear protective gear around them. When you go work in an essential service, your employer is required to give you protective gear or have you 2 meters away from other employees/customers.  People you work with are not in your bubble.

The idea of the bubble is to keep *close* interactions in clearly-defined separate units and to not allow them to overlap.  This is the core feature of our lockdown.

I’m not really sure how that’s different from what I’m imagining, but it doesn’t apply to me, so I won’t worry about it to much, lol.

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3 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

I’m not really sure how that’s different from what I’m imagining, but it doesn’t apply to me, so I won’t worry about it to much, lol.

haha.  I'm just fascinated by how different lockdowns work as they all have similar names but appear to be very very different. 

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1 hour ago, lewelma said:

Sorry, sounds like my comments are political. I'm not in the American news, and didn't/don't understand their laws/politics. NZ is exporting masks to those who need them, but obviously that is because we are in a better position. I'm so sorry, everyone, for what you are going through. There are no clear ethical decisions in this horrific situation. 😞 

 

I’m not sure if it’s wrongly political in the usual sense of troubles on these forums.  

But I think Maybe we should at least move it over to the companion thread I had started for “discussion.” So if it becomes lengthy and vehement it isn’t leading this thread astray.  

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