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@ElizabethB There is a study I saw currently being done on D3 which I am afraid is going to turn out suggesting Vitamin D is not useful because they are using 1) a bolus 25,000IU dose on people already sick when it has already been shown that consistently regular dosing is what makes a significant difference in other respiratory illnesses; and 2) 25,000iu is probably too low to bring levels up to helpful with an infection already present (when I had low levels I needed more than one 50,000iu bolus just to get out of deficient range—and I was still far from what I would later learn is more optimal) and 3) iirc the comparable controls seem to be getting other treatments like hydroxychloroquine; etc

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1 minute ago, Pen said:

@ElizabethB There is a study I saw currently being done on D3 which I am afraid is going to turn out suggesting Vitamin D is not useful because they are using 1) a bolus 25,000IU dose on people already sick when it has already been shown that consistently regular dosing is what makes a significant difference in other respiratory illnesses; and 2) 25,000iu is probably too low to bring levels up to helpful with an infection already present (when I had low levels I needed more than one 50,000iu bolus just to get out of deficient range—and I was still far from what I would later learn is more optimal) and 3) iirc the comparable controls seem to be getting other treatments like hydroxychloroquine; etc

Yes, the respiratory study found that only daily or weekly doses were helpful, not bolus doses.  But, what to do with people who need D levels up fast?  I don't know.  

Normally, better weather leads to people outside more, with people staying inside more there is even more need for vitamin D awareness.

The most important D data point currently that I know of:

Dr. Erik Hermstad has found an interesting correlation with Vitamin D levels and case severity with his patients. He tweeted (@EHermstad) 

"Does an adequate vitamin D level protect against some of the cytokine storm we're seeing with COVID-19?  I don't know.  I just haven't seen any vitamin D levels in the 40's or higher yet on ANY patient I've admitted with it.  I'd be interested to see if others are seeing the same."

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20 minutes ago, ElizabethB said:

Yes, the respiratory study found that only daily or weekly doses were helpful, not bolus doses.  But, what to do with people who need D levels up fast?  I don't know.  

 

It might need to be bolus or several bolus to get it up fast, then regular to maintain it. But I am afraid the study was set up very badly.  If it shows a positive result for the D that will be extra promising for the D because it almost looks like it was deliberately set up to give a negative result.  If they are only giving one 25k iu bolus they at least need testing to show that brought the D level up to normal— at least in blood, though it may not have time to get well distributed to lung etc when someone is already sick 

ETA: each 1000k brings the D level up ~ 10 units on the UK / most of Europe type measurement system (nmols, I think, my brain not working well right now ) where I think good level  is at least above 60(nmol ?)  and up to 100 certainly seems safe in studies I have read. So it might be more like at least 3 25Kiu boluses needed in close succession, and then maintenance dose. They aren’t doing either what seems to be high enough bolus nor maintenance thereafter.  

 I can sometimes knock out a cold that is just starting with a bolus, but then need to be sure to go to a high maintenance dose for awhile or it just seems to stave off the cold briefly. And I think some people who take C for immunity help have said if they stop suddenly they become more vulnerable . 

 

Edited by Pen
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I think trying to assess people for basic nutrients, vitamins and minerals status would be helpful.  Not just Vitamin D.  We know that runs low in many people in modern society.  

But also perhaps some people seem to be helped by zinc because they are low in zinc.

etc. 

I think nursing home populations, inner city populations, jails, etc are likely to have people especially low on various nutrients, vitamins, minerals etc. 

 

Which may play a big role in immune functioning as well as cognitive, mood, behavior etc. 

 

https://thehammockllc.com/how-food-affects-behavior/

 

Food and Behavior - A Natural Connection https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00875H66Q/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_55ZMEbH54V6FD

 

The low low levels of nutrition found to affect behavior almost certainly would also affect immunity, whether amongst school kids, prisoners, nursing home residents, or the population at large

Edited by Pen
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re declining rates of growth in new cases, vs declining cases:

2 hours ago, square_25 said:

I've been watching the COVID tracking project. I think about the only states whose case load is going down are the states that are honest-to-goodness hunkered down for a while now. So Washington and a few of the Northeastern states, I think. Maybe Michigan? Everyone else is having the death numbers sloowly tick up. So, a small R0, but one that's greater than 1. 

 

Definitions and de facto vs de jure hunker-downs vary a bit... but... I believe my CT county (Fairfield) is the largest hot spot in the NE outside of NYC, and we've been substantively hunkered down for just about as long/ intensively as NYC.  

And though thanks to that hunkered-down our rate of growth has definitely peaked; and we're now cautiously optimistic now that CT hospitals / ventilators / PPE / medical personnel will *not* be as overwhelmed as NYC has been and we earlier feared we would be...

... the absolute number of cases still rises every day. New cases > recovered cases every.single.day.

And we're six weeks in, the same basic timetable as NYC (to which many people in the county used to commute daily).  

Other regions to which the virus came later could not possibly have peaked yet.

 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Pen said:

@ElizabethB in case u missed this, or for anyone else interested:  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5402701/

 

will return to add another link I posted upthread later

 

The video/slide show https://www.vitamindservice.de/coronavirus-e

also can’t find them now, but info on other fat soluble vitamins to go with the D3 for safety 

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1 hour ago, Pen said:

 

It might need to be bolus or several bolus to get it up fast, then regular to maintain it. But I am afraid the study was set up very badly.  If it shows a positive result for the D that will be extra promising for the D because it almost looks like it was deliberately set up to give a negative result.  If they are only giving one 25k iu bolus they at least need testing to show that brought the D level up to normal— at least in blood, though it may not have time to get well distributed to lung etc when someone is already sick 

ETA: each 1000k brings the D level up ~ 10 units on the UK / most of Europe type measurement system (nmols, I think, my brain not working well right now ) where I think good level  is at least above 60(nmol ?)  and up to 100 certainly seems safe in studies I have read. So it might be more like at least 3 25Kiu boluses needed in close succession, and then maintenance dose. They aren’t doing either what seems to be high enough bolus nor maintenance thereafter.  

 I can sometimes knock out a cold that is just starting with a bolus, but then need to be sure to go to a high maintenance dose for awhile or it just seems to stave off the cold briefly. And I think some people who take C for immunity help have said if they stop suddenly they become more vulnerable . 

So can someone who understands D dosing help out a bit? I have no idea what my or dh's D levels were or are, and no way at this point to figure it out. I figured it was probably lowish, because winter and northern latitudes.

So since around the beginning of March, we've been taking a vitD3 with 2000iu, plus a multi that has another 400.  We were also taking a packet a day of Emergen-C, till now the ones without added D. But we've now switched over to the immune support kind that has 1000iu of D, so I've discontinued the extra D pill. Do you think that we should have been brought up to healthier levels enough by now, and this is fine for maintenance,  or should we still add a 2000iu pill some days? I know it's possible too take too much D, so I didn't want to overdo, either.

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This interactive map with graphs from NYT is pretty useful. You can look at countries. For US, you can look at state and drill down to county. The state level has that critical new cases reported bar graph with a line graph overlay of 7 day average which is really helpful if you are looking at the trend line which is one of the gating criteria for the US reopening plan. This is not available for county level data though.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/world/coronavirus-maps.html

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8 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

So can someone who understands D dosing help out a bit? I have no idea what my or dh's D levels were or are, and no way at this point to figure it out. I figured it was probably lowish, because winter and northern latitudes.

So since around the beginning of March, we've been taking a vitD3 with 2000iu, plus a multi that has another 400.  We were also taking a packet a day of Emergen-C, till now the ones without added D. But we've now switched over to the immune support kind that has 1000iu of D, so I've discontinued the extra D pill. Do you think that we should have been brought up to healthier levels enough by now, and this is fine for maintenance,  or should we still add a 2000iu pill some days? I know it's possible too take too much D, so I didn't want to overdo, either.

2000 a day is winter maintenance for most, not a build up dose, and you lose D during the winter if not taking D, so if he was low before March, 2000 a day is maintaining that low dose for most people.  I need 30,000 a week for maintenance, 50,000 a week for fast build up, 40,000 a week for slower build up, it varies how much people need.  He is probably low enough to take 4,000 a day for a week or two, get the levels tested during that period.  If you get your D from the sun, your body adjusts better to prevent overdose.

How to get D from sun safely, sun angle must be 50 degrees or higher to work:

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/vitamin-d-from-sun

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15 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

So can someone who understands D dosing help out a bit? I have no idea what my or dh's D levels were or are, and no way at this point to figure it out. I figured it was probably lowish, because winter and northern latitudes.

So since around the beginning of March, we've been taking a vitD3 with 2000iu, plus a multi that has another 400.  We were also taking a packet a day of Emergen-C, till now the ones without added D. But we've now switched over to the immune support kind that has 1000iu of D, so I've discontinued the extra D pill. Do you think that we should have been brought up to healthier levels enough by now, and this is fine for maintenance,  or should we still add a 2000iu pill some days? I know it's possible too take too much D, so I didn't want to overdo, either.

 

I cannot advise anyone else what to do, obviously.  Probably there should be an “ask your own  pcp” proviso.

 I can’t do it now but will later tell you my own logic. If I haven’t by mid day tomorrow tag me to remind me.  I have a bunch of stuff happening on home front to try to juggle! 

 

If I remember and can fit it in while watering plays or something like that, I will!!!

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@Matryoshka 

my amount before CV19 was 4000iu daily.

my maximum amount during CV19 is 15,000 IU per day.  As per study linked above.

 

 We live in a place where we get basically zero from sun aiding in conversion of cholesterol to D. (Probably people trying to avoid cholesterol is another issue for D synthesis in addition to sun) .  Some days I miss it but the 15k most days would help keep my level up. 

 

Im saving because the site isn’t working well for me today and keeps deleting my attempts to post or signing me out repeatedly.  I’ll either add more as an edit or quote myself. 

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@Matryoshka can’t edit right now either so just added posts on D

A British Medical Journal iirc suggested that daily D at only around [.   1000 IU ? 4000 IU?   ] was better for influenza immunity.  But I do not Recall whether cohorts were similar for the higher and lower doses.

If self selected, people taking more may have had other health issues that would both be reason to take extra D and make them more susceptible to influenza. 

4000-5000 IU per day is an amount I would like my son to take.  He clearly seems better in many ways with that.  He is a teen and makes his own decisions.

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3 minutes ago, Pen said:

@Matryoshka

Skin color matters in ability to convert cholesterol to D even if there is enough sun.  Darker has harder time than fair. 

And possibly People trying to eat low cholesterol affects vitamin D status too. 

We are pasty people here, but live fairly far north, in New England.  I do not try to eat low cholesterol, but I don't eat a lot of eggs or shellfish or a ton of meat (though we do eat some lean meat, and I do eat some butter and cheese).  My blood cholesterol was borderline high for a bit, but last year I lost 40 lbs and started exercising more regularly and last I checked it was in a healthy range.  Dh on the other hand has always had naturally low cholesterol levels without trying.

But I'm hearing that I could add that 2000iu back in (which would total 3400iu/day with the other supplements) without having to worry about overdose, at least?

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On 4/17/2020 at 8:47 AM, kdsuomi said:

It's fine if you think it was bungled in February. However, we were also basing our early response off of flat out lies. If you only look at one side of that, you're still being very partisan. 

Arctic is talking about now. Everything bad has to be the fault of one party or one person and everything good is attributed to one party. It happens all the time. As I've said, I think my governor is a crackpot, but I think he's done a decent job with this situation. Would I vote for him? Absolutely not. Will I blame everything on him and not give him credit for anything because of that? Absolutely not. 

While I voted for my governor, I haven’t been very impressed by her response overall. however, I am very thankful she doesn’t say or tweet inappropriate, embarrassing, bullying, and divisive things almost daily. she is mature and thoughtful. I have no problem saying that some governors in the other party have done a better job than her or that the feds have done some things right. I truly can’t comprehend how anyone thinks our current president is the type of mature, responsible leader we need at a time like this. He is not just another Democrat or another Republican. he is fundamentally different than any president in our lifetime. He is treated differently because he is different. One need only look at his twitter feed to witness how he has debased the presidency. Maybe if people stopped trying to defend the indefensible, our country could be more united.

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4 hours ago, Pen said:

 

1 hour ago, Matryoshka said:

We are pasty people here, but live fairly far north, in New England.  I do not try to eat low cholesterol, but I don't eat a lot of eggs or shellfish or a ton of meat (though we do eat some lean meat, and I do eat some butter and cheese).  My blood cholesterol was borderline high for a bit, but last year I lost 40 lbs and started exercising more regularly and last I checked it was in a healthy range.  Dh on the other hand has always had naturally low cholesterol levels without trying.

But I'm hearing that I could add that 2000iu back in (which would total 3400iu/day with the other supplements) without having to worry about overdose, at least?

 

Well, I am not able to take responsibility for what you would worry about.  😊 Nor can I give medical advice.  

Ideal I think would be if you could get actual levels tested for your family members. Rather than guessing.  (Lab Corps seems to do these well.) In a pandemic though that may not be a present good option.  I decided I would rather not be exposing my family to lab test environments at this time. 

The article in the top link found doses of 15,000IU / day of vitamin D3 to be safe.  And Thus between 10,000IU -15,000 IU daily (though occasionally missing a day entirely) is basically what I am doing for myself as an adult (along with the other vitamins that help balance it — K2, E and preformed A most particularly K2–so that calcium stays in bones and teeth where it belongs) during pandemic in a non sunny environment.  My son is taking less than that.  

If I were me in the situation I understand you to be in, and during a largely respiratory  pandemic, not only would I personally myself feel comfortable with 3400IU daily, or for a normal 12yo boy,   I would be concerned that it might still be rather lower than optimal until summer sun exposure were possible. 

Again will probably add a link shortly

 

 

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21 minutes ago, square_25 said:

Another antibody study, this time out of Chelsea, Massachusetts, which has a serious outbreak: 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8232857/One-people-Massachusetts-study-tested-positive-COVID-19-antibodies.html

This one got a stunning rate of positive cases, which is 30%. And they randomly sampled on the street (good for them!), so I do not have serious criticisms of this study. If anything, their numbers are perhaps too large, because people walking around are MORE likely to be positive.

 

U mean because they aren’t isolating? 

 

Quote

So the actual number is probably smaller. 

Chelsea has had 41 deaths that been officially recorded so far -- the actual number may very well be considerably bigger. To borrow a phrase Cuomo keeps using, deaths are a "lagging indicator" -- the people dead right now represent the infection rate from a few weeks ago. To be conservative, say that a few weeks ago the infection rate was 15% (that is again likely to be an upper bound given doubling rates.) The total number of people in Chelsea is 40,000 and 15% of that is 6,000. That means that a relatively conservative estimate of the IFR would be 

41/6,000 = 0.68%. 

These kinds of numbers are what make me rather suspicious of the Stanford study. The IFR in the Germany study was 0.37%, by the way. So I'm really seeing a lot of answers that are centering on about half a percent (@TracyP, I think you called this correct and I slightly overestimated!)  

 

Were they using an antibody test very specific for CV19 /SARS-COV-2 virus ?    Or might they be picking up other coronavirus? Like past coronavirus common colds.

Edited by Pen
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@Matryoshka

https://vitamindwiki.com/Loading+Dose+of+Vitamin+D

 

Part of articles list from above link:

 

 

Graph from the last link:

Note: 4000IU per day took around 6 months to get above 40ng/ml dose that some doctors seem to indicate they aren’t seeing hospital level CV19 patients .  2000IU per day never gets that high.  3,333IU per day only does so (on graph below that is for the study — irl it probably would do so at some point a little after the 4000IU dose but never reach the more optimal 60ng/ml level) after an enormous high loading dose.  (And I would *not* personally feel comfortable with a big loading dose like that outside of physician oversight.) 

 

 

Response with 400,000 IU loading dose @ is.gd/7DayVitD
 

Edited by Pen
Graph and comments about graph added
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1 minute ago, kand said:

University of Washington has a new antibody test coming out for public use this week that has a 100% sensitivity and 99.6% specificity. They tested 300 samples of blood that were all drawn last fall before coronavirus was circulating, and it didn’t turn up any (false) positives. 

 

How do you sign up?

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3 minutes ago, square_25 said:

 

Yes, because they aren't isolating. 

I didn't look at the actual study -- I assume everyone is trying to use very specific antibody tests. If you take a look and find out more information, let me know!

The thing is that here, a false positive rate of even 5% would make a very minimal difference to my calculations. So if the test's specificity was like the Stanford tests, the numbers are fairly reliable. That's because 5% is a small fraction of our total positives here (30%) but would dwarf the puny 1.5% in the Santa Clara sample.

 

Well, I know our very own @sassenach was going to get antibody tested, but then did not when she realized that it wasn’t sufficiently specific to SARS-COV-2 

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12 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

You know, interestingly, ds' mood has picked up since I started him on Vit D. 

Which means I can get him outdoors into the sunshine for more Vit D.

Yes, even if it isn't helpful for Coronavirus (and I would be surprised if it isn't), good levels are linked to a lot of favorable outcomes.

Edited by ElizabethB
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8 minutes ago, whitehawk said:

98% no symptoms, that is very high.  They show the prisoners outside in the video...I wonder how much outside time they get and if their vitamin D levels are higher than average.

ETA: looks like 1 hour per day in prison yard if this is true of that specific prison. https://www.doc.state.nc.us/DOP/HOURS24.htm

Edited by ElizabethB
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1 hour ago, Pen said:

 

Well, I know our very own @sassenach was going to get antibody tested, but then did not when she realized that it wasn’t sufficiently specific to SARS-COV-2 

There are a number of private companies (over 70 I heard) that are offering "junk" covid19 testing. I would be leery of any place that is offering serology testing to the general public as of today. There are quality tests out there, though. I think (hope?) that these studies are using accurate tests. Their studies are pointless otherwise, and they must know that.

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20 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

You know, interestingly, ds' mood has picked up since I started him on Vit D. 

Which means I can get him outdoors into the sunshine for more Vit D.

 

Vitamin D is known to impact mood, energy, cognitive functioning and even muscles as well as of course bones . 

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4 minutes ago, whitehawk said:

 

I read an article, either on FoxNews.com or in the Google Feed on my phone, that in Chelsea (?) MA they did a random survey with people on the street. They tested about 200 people. 1/3 of them tested positive. The test required a drop of blood and was anonymous, so then they could not notify the people who tested positive.

I believe it is in the air and/or water.

Here in Colombia, we have a population of approximately 50 million people. As I type this, they are showing 166 deaths. One of them was within a few miles of our house. A few days ago.

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20 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

You know, interestingly, ds' mood has picked up since I started him on Vit D. 

Which means I can get him outdoors into the sunshine for more Vit D.

I started taking D for other reasons, but I have not suffered from SAD for over 6 years - since I began taking it. I always wonder if it is the Vit D that helps me out.

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4 minutes ago, square_25 said:

I'd be curious if they stayed symptom-free. 

And I would guess on average, prisoners do not get THAT much time outside? Or am I off-base here? 

I looked it up, it looks like 1 hour outside per day. https://www.doc.state.nc.us/DOP/HOURS24.htm

I couldn't find average time for an average American, but found an article that said that 1/4 of the population almost never goes outside. (40% are D deficient, so that tracks fairly well, a few more go a bit more than that.  Some who go out more will be wearing sunscreen, which limits vitamin D production.)

Edited by ElizabethB
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2 minutes ago, TracyP said:

I started taking D for other reasons, but I have not suffered from SAD for over 6 years - since I began taking it. I always wonder if it is the Vit D that helps me out.

 

There are lots of studies that show vitamin D helps alleviate depression 

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Just now, Pen said:

 

There are lots of studies that show vitamin D helps alleviate depression 

I started taking it after reading a study out of Finland saying that Vit D was as effective as a vaccine in preventing the flu. It wasn't until this thread that I realized all the benefits. Thanks to all you guys with the Vit D info!!!

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On 4/16/2020 at 10:28 AM, Spryte said:


  I did some digging, and a week ago our state’s health dept refused to release names of facilities with positive cases, unless they specifically had the permission of the facility.  (Sigh)  

I just realized that my state, California, has a list of facilities with positive cases https://www.cdph.ca.gov/Programs/CID/DCDC/Pages/COVID-19/SNFsCOVID_19.aspx

"

Skilled Nursing Facilities: COVID-19

NOTE: This data is comprised of a point in time snapshot of the 86% of SNFs who reported their data within the last 24 hours.  There are 1224 Skilled Nursing Facilities in California and 258 have reported having one or more COVID-19 case by either a resident or a health care worker as of April 17, 2020.

Facility Name

County

Sum of Staff COVID-19 Positive Count

Sum of Patients COVID-19 Positive Count

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20 hours ago, square_25 said:

I've been watching the COVID tracking project. I think about the only states whose case load is going down are the states that are honest-to-goodness hunkered down for a while now. So Washington and a few of the Northeastern states, I think. Maybe Michigan? Everyone else is having the death numbers sloowly tick up. So, a small R0, but one that's greater than 1. 

 

How do you get into the state by state tracking?

 

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12 hours ago, Lanny said:

 

I read an article, either on FoxNews.com or in the Google Feed on my phone, that in Chelsea (?) MA they did a random survey with people on the street. They tested about 200 people. 1/3 of them tested positive. The test required a drop of blood and was anonymous, so then they could not notify the people who tested positive.

I believe it is in the air and/or water.

Here in Colombia, we have a population of approximately 50 million people. As I type this, they are showing 166 deaths. One of them was within a few miles of our house. A few days ago.

They had an epidemiologist on the radio yesterday and mentioned water as being a potential concern for some countries.

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12 hours ago, StellaM said:

Summary of a new study into children and Covid 19 - I don't have the skills to evaluate it, so just posting it here for interest, not as a recommendation!

https://neurosciencenews.com/covid-19-children-16197/?fbclid=IwAR0qtPxJTkbBlQHTg6zBUQeT0NCPKMjJpSp9Z9YIxbZvqJKXiO742RRV8BQ

 

Me either but for one thing it looks like they are assuming that if there’s 74 cases of ICU in kids there must be 176,190 infections in kids.  But it’s all based off the Chinese data so I think I’d view it with caution given how unreliable the figures seem to be.

The concerns about keeping kids isolated in hospital or managing caregivers And about managing isolating kids at home are legitimate.  

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12 hours ago, Lanny said:

 

I read an article, either on FoxNews.com or in the Google Feed on my phone, that in Chelsea (?) MA they did a random survey with people on the street. They tested about 200 people. 1/3 of them tested positive. The test required a drop of blood and was anonymous, so then they could not notify the people who tested positive.

I believe it is in the air and/or water.

Here in Colombia, we have a population of approximately 50 million people. As I type this, they are showing 166 deaths. One of them was within a few miles of our house. A few days ago.

 

I think we pretty much know (even if based off SARS1 / MERS research)  that it can survive for some time in both air and water.  Longer in cold water.

Did you see the reports on the choir practice where everyone was careful to not hug etc, yet many got sick?  And about the bus in China where surveillance footage showed contagion through air at much farther  than 6feet?

And if water disinfection is inadequate, I expect that would be a problem even for respiratory transmission, plus we don’t know for sure that it could not transmit otherwise.  As much as aerosol plumes are a problem when flushing in terms of infectious fecal matter, if it’s in the water itself that could be an issue every time the toilet is flushed regardless of whether last user is infected.  And could be a problem when tap is turned on or from shower etc. 

 

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Update from Israel: 13,362 cases, 171 deaths.  Curve is bent, active cases are declining.

The government -- well, Netanyahu, but that's a whole 'nother story --  slightly relaxed the strict lockdown last night.  It's still far more stringent than anything in the US (eg., we are now allowed to go 500 meters from home for exercise, up from 100 meters) but there's quite a lot of anxiety, esp from public health folks, that it's too soon and there is going to be a spike in new cases in a couple of weeks.   Small business owners have been protesting, not to reopen but to get more financial support from the government.  

Israel has been doing a lot of testing but almost certainly not as much as they should be doing to really get out of this.  I'm fairly confident they'll get there eventually, but the process of moving forward is such a mess.  

Edited by JennyD
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5 minutes ago, square_25 said:

 

I wouldn't go off of SARS1/MERS research because those were such different viruses... for one thing, they were way more lethal. Or is there a good biological reason that they should behave similarly in air and water despite different actions in humans? 

I think there's really good evidence of airborne contagion for this virus, though. 

 

Until new research is done specific to SARS-CoV-2, we (humans, epidemiologists, OSHA, etc) tend to rely a great deal on what is known from SARS1, MERS and other coronaviruses with regard to disinfection and matters related to disinfection.  

The basic nature of a coronavirus, how it is encapsulated for example, does tend to suggest similar survival in water would be expected until shown otherwise.

(otoh if it was laboratory manipulated to be different than typical coronaviruses that could be way off) 

maybe tagging @maize she’ll have more to contribute 

 

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2 hours ago, Pen said:

 

Until new research is done specific to SARS-CoV-2, we (humans, epidemiologists, OSHA, etc) tend to rely a great deal on what is known from SARS1, MERS and other coronaviruses with regard to disinfection and matters related to disinfection.  

The basic nature of a coronavirus, how it is encapsulated for example, does tend to suggest similar survival in water would be expected until shown otherwise.

(otoh if it was laboratory manipulated to be different than typical coronaviruses that could be way off) 

maybe tagging @maize she’ll have more to contribute 

 

Unfortunately there is still a lot we don't know about this virus.

There is not, at this point, evidence that food or drink represent a major infection route for this virus. Certainly I would not worry about it being in the water supply--there would have to be some massive source of water contamination for any viral particles to not be extremely diluted; the goal is not actually to prevent exposure to even a single viral particle at any point, it is rare for any virus to cause infection with such low exposure.

Here's an article that discusses what we currently do and do not know (unfortunately we don't know much yet) about infectious dose for this virus:

https://theconversation.com/what-we-do-and-do-not-know-about-covid-19s-infectious-dose-and-viral-load-135991

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3 minutes ago, maize said:

Unfortunately there is still a lot we don't know about this virus.

There is not, at this point, evidence that food or drink represent a major infection route for this virus. Certainly I would not worry about it being in the water supply--there would have to be some massive source of water contamination for any viral particles to not be extremely diluted; the goal is not actually to prevent exposure to even a single viral particle at any point, it is rare for any virus to cause infection with such low exposure.

Here's an article that discusses what we currently do and do not know (unfortunately we don't know much yet) about infectious dose for this virus:

https://theconversation.com/what-we-do-and-do-not-know-about-covid-19s-infectious-dose-and-viral-load-135991

 

Just in case you missed this, water issue was raised by Lanny, who is in Colombia, South America.  It has been years since I lived in South America, but at least at that time, water contamination and illness from contaminated water were frequent serious issues.

Actually, where I now live in USA, local surface water sources probably have a lot of giardia, cryptosporidium, etc.    Municipal water adds a lot of chlorine.  We use Berkey or boiling. 

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9 minutes ago, Pen said:

Just in case you missed this, water issue was raised by Lanny, who is in Colombia, South America.  It has been years since I lived in South America, but at least at that time, water contamination and illness from contaminated water were frequent serious issues.

Actually, where I now live in USA, local surface water sources probably have a lot of giardia, cryptosporidium, etc.    Municipal water adds a lot of chlorine.  We use Berkey or boiling. 

Exposure to the virus from water via breathing in aerosolized virus (I've seen mentioned breaking waves or flushing toilets) is one thing. But I've never heard of any virus of any kind that is transmitted via *drinking* water? All the stuff I can think of that's transmitted that way is bacterial.  Seems even less likely for a respiratory virus. Am I forgetting one (or more)?

I think 'contaminated water' as far as disease vectors is virtually always bacterial or one-celled eukaryotic organisms. Things that are alive and can reproduce and multiply in water. Viruses can't. 

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2 hours ago, Matryoshka said:

Exposure to the virus from water via breathing in aerosolized virus (I've seen mentioned breaking waves or flushing toilets) is one thing. But I've never heard of any virus of any kind that is transmitted via *drinking* water? All the stuff I can think of that's transmitted that way is bacterial.  Seems even less likely for a respiratory virus. Am I forgetting one (or more)?

I think 'contaminated water' as far as disease vectors is virtually always bacterial or one-celled eukaryotic organisms. Things that are alive and can reproduce and multiply in water. Viruses can't. 

Viruses can be a problem in fecally contaminated drinking water, especially those that cause diarrhea

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4482390/

So far has not been shown to happen with coronaviruses though not impossible in areas with high fecal contamination in water.

When I lived in South America we drank distilled water. 

In areas where tap water is generally potable I do not expect covid-19 transmission via tap water to be an issue.

 

 

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15 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

Exposure to the virus from water via breathing in aerosolized virus (I've seen mentioned breaking waves or flushing toilets) is one thing. But I've never heard of any virus of any kind that is transmitted via *drinking* water? All the stuff I can think of that's transmitted that way is bacterial.  Seems even less likely for a respiratory virus. Am I forgetting one (or more)?

I think 'contaminated water' as far as disease vectors is virtually always bacterial or one-celled eukaryotic organisms. Things that are alive and can reproduce and multiply in water. Viruses can't. 

 

We are seeing some CV19 that seems to be showing up in a gastrointestinal form, at least initially.

Lots if viruses can be waterborne.  Polio, for example, not probably as a drinking problem, but pools were a major problem in epidemics.

“re Waterborne Viruses a Particular Concern?

It is well known that bacteria are major causes of diarrhea transmitted through unsafe drinking water. What is less appreciated are viruses in these same drinking water sources and their impact on human health. Water-transmitted viral pathogens that are classified as having a moderate to high health significance by the World Health Organization (WHO) include adenovirus, astrovirus, hepatitis A and E viruses, rotavirus, norovirus and other caliciviruses, and enteroviruses, including coxsackieviruses and polioviruses [5]. Also, viruses that are excreted through urine like polyomaviruses [5] and cytomegalovirus [6] can potentially be spread through water. Other viruses, such as influenza and coronaviruses, have been suggested as organisms that can be transmitted through drinking water, but evidence is inconclusive [5].”

 

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