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24 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:


I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again, some communities are disproportionately  affected by ‘Preexisting’ conditions that make their deaths justifiable to too many people. That same apathy and lack of care about SYSTEMIC failures in health care access, medical treatment, social capital and stress that’s has led to these increased numbers of ‘preexisting’ conditions in the first place. It’s shameful. These people are not disposable and so are the people who minimize their loss.

One thing I hope happens as a result of this horrific situation is that people will finally understand the value of a national health care system. I see the Brits cheering their NHS, the prime minister praising the NHS... and I just really want to have that here, too. 

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DS got home 3 hours ago!  ❤️❤️

Update-  my youngest is not only short of breath, coughing, dizzy, nausaues, and with headache-  she is also confused.  I called our doctor and talked with him and she is going to be going to the ER.

That's not a blanket right.  If my religion required human sacrifice, I can't practice it.  If my religion required sexual assault, I can't practice it. Freedom of religion isn't a blanket right

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Just now, Mainer said:

One thing I hope happens as a result of this horrific situation is that people will finally understand the value of a national health care system. I see the Brits cheering their NHS, the prime minister praising the NHS... and I just really want to have that here, too. 

I don't.  This is the same NHS which has wanted to do nothing and let the chips fall as they may because of a lack of resources.  But that is all I will say because of the "no politics" rule. 

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15 hours ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

 

I don't know why the death of people with preexisting conditions is less alarming, or worthy of reaction, than the death of people without.  Can you help me understand where you're coming from? 

People with preexisting condition are always at greater risk for anything due to their decrease/compromised immune systems.  I am *not* saying that it isn't heartbreaking that these people are dying.  The high percentage of people with chronic diseases is absolutely alarming.

Where I'm coming from: I have a long family history, on both sides, of autoimmune diseases, a few specific cancers, diabetes, high blood pressure, and high cholesterol.  The medical system where I live (America) gives medication (or radiation/chemo/surgery for the cancers) for all of those diseases.  After decades, none of my grandparents have ever gotten off of any daily treatment.  They eat a typical American diet.  They go to several different doctors every month and pop whatever pills their doctors tell them to.  My parents started taking a different approach about ten years ago when my mom was diagnosed with cancer.  She already had an autoimmune disease and was a smoker with prediabetes.  Instead of following a path that most Americans take, she overhauled her lifestyle.  Within three months, her doctor was amazed at her results: autoimmune disease in remission, cancer not detected, no longer prediabetic, and overall health sharply increased. My dad got off of high blood pressure and thyroid medications.  They have stayed that way for the past ten years.  After seeing her results, my family started taking better care of ourselves.  My autoimmune disease, the same kind my mom had, went into remission.  If what science is uncovering about epigenetics is correct, hopefully my children will never express the genetic diseases .  We no longer need any prescriptions or OTC medications and we rarely get sick.  Immune systems are made to fight off anything attacking it. Fully functioning immune systems do this quite well.  I think of it like a car: If you drive a car and never take care of it, it's going to break down and not work properly.  If neglected for too long, something disastrous, like a tire flying off, will happen and then you get into an accident.  Who is to blame for the accident?

 

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Just now, hopeallgoeswell said:

People with preexisting condition are always at greater risk for anything due to their decrease/compromised immune systems.  I am *not* saying that it isn't heartbreaking that these people are dying.  The high percentage of people with chronic diseases is absolutely alarming.

Where I'm coming from: I have a long family history, on both sides, of autoimmune diseases, a few specific cancers, diabetes, high blood pressure, and high cholesterol.  The medical system where I live (America) gives medication (or radiation/chemo/surgery for the cancers) for all of those diseases.  After decades, none of my grandparents have ever gotten off of any daily treatment.  They eat a typical American diet.  They go to several different doctors every month and pop whatever pills their doctors tell them to.  My parents started taking a different approach about ten years ago when my mom was diagnosed with cancer.  She already had an autoimmune disease and was a smoker with prediabetes.  Instead of following a path that most Americans take, she overhauled her lifestyle.  Within three months, her doctor was amazed at her results: autoimmune disease in remission, cancer not detected, no longer prediabetic, and overall health sharply increased. My dad got off of high blood pressure and thyroid medications.  They have stayed that way for the past ten years.  After seeing her results, my family started taking better care of ourselves.  My autoimmune disease, the same kind my mom had, went into remission.  If what science is uncovering about epigenetics is correct, hopefully my children will never express the genetic diseases .  We no longer need any prescriptions or OTC medications and we rarely get sick.  Immune systems are made to fight off anything attacking it. Fully functioning immune systems do this quite well.  I think of it like a car: If you drive a car and never take care of it, it's going to break down and not work properly.  If neglected for too long, something disastrous, like a tire flying off, will happen and then you get into an accident.  Who is to blame for the accident?

 

Oh for Pete's sake.  Good for you.  But I eat an excellent diet (Paleo, gluten free, dairy free, lots of whole foods, plants heavy), I go to Naturopathic doctors and I have still had chronic pain and illness for 30 years.  This oversimplification is like a slap in the face. 

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9 minutes ago, hopeallgoeswell said:

People with preexisting condition are always at greater risk for anything due to their decrease/compromised immune systems.  I am *not* saying that it isn't heartbreaking that these people are dying.  The high percentage of people with chronic diseases is absolutely alarming.

Where I'm coming from: I have a long family history, on both sides, of autoimmune diseases, a few specific cancers, diabetes, high blood pressure, and high cholesterol.  The medical system where I live (America) gives medication (or radiation/chemo/surgery for the cancers) for all of those diseases.  After decades, none of my grandparents have ever gotten off of any daily treatment.  They eat a typical American diet.  They go to several different doctors every month and pop whatever pills their doctors tell them to.  My parents started taking a different approach about ten years ago when my mom was diagnosed with cancer.  She already had an autoimmune disease and was a smoker with prediabetes.  Instead of following a path that most Americans take, she overhauled her lifestyle.  Within three months, her doctor was amazed at her results: autoimmune disease in remission, cancer not detected, no longer prediabetic, and overall health sharply increased. My dad got off of high blood pressure and thyroid medications.  They have stayed that way for the past ten years.  After seeing her results, my family started taking better care of ourselves.  My autoimmune disease, the same kind my mom had, went into remission.  If what science is uncovering about epigenetics is correct, hopefully my children will never express the genetic diseases .  We no longer need any prescriptions or OTC medications and we rarely get sick.  Immune systems are made to fight off anything attacking it. Fully functioning immune systems do this quite well.  I think of it like a car: If you drive a car and never take care of it, it's going to break down and not work properly.  If neglected for too long, something disastrous, like a tire flying off, will happen and then you get into an accident.  Who is to blame for the accident?

 

I come from a long line of people who are overweight and have very unhealthy diets yet live well into their 90s with zero health issues. I think there is quite a bit more to it than you think.

I've chosen for my little family to eat better and exercise but I don't for one second think we're healthy just because of that because I just have to look at the rest of my family who is also doing just fine but choosing differently.

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9 minutes ago, hopeallgoeswell said:

People with preexisting condition are always at greater risk for anything due to their decrease/compromised immune systems.  I am *not* saying that it isn't heartbreaking that these people are dying.  The high percentage of people with chronic diseases is absolutely alarming.

Where I'm coming from: I have a long family history, on both sides, of autoimmune diseases, a few specific cancers, diabetes, high blood pressure, and high cholesterol.  The medical system where I live (America) gives medication (or radiation/chemo/surgery for the cancers) for all of those diseases.  After decades, none of my grandparents have ever gotten off of any daily treatment.  They eat a typical American diet.  They go to several different doctors every month and pop whatever pills their doctors tell them to.  My parents started taking a different approach about ten years ago when my mom was diagnosed with cancer.  She already had an autoimmune disease and was a smoker with prediabetes.  Instead of following a path that most Americans take, she overhauled her lifestyle.  Within three months, her doctor was amazed at her results: autoimmune disease in remission, cancer not detected, no longer prediabetic, and overall health sharply increased. My dad got off of high blood pressure and thyroid medications.  They have stayed that way for the past ten years.  After seeing her results, my family started taking better care of ourselves.  My autoimmune disease, the same kind my mom had, went into remission.  If what science is uncovering about epigenetics is correct, hopefully my children will never express the genetic diseases .  We no longer need any prescriptions or OTC medications and we rarely get sick.  Immune systems are made to fight off anything attacking it. Fully functioning immune systems do this quite well.  I think of it like a car: If you drive a car and never take care of it, it's going to break down and not work properly.  If neglected for too long, something disastrous, like a tire flying off, will happen and then you get into an accident.  Who is to blame for the accident?

 

Well...bless your heart.

Of course, lifestyle choices can and do play a part in overall health and the management of disease. You do realize,  I hope, that for many people, making the right choices (assuming they had the resources and information to make and act on those choices) does not guarantee a medication-free life. One can do everything "right" and still get cancer. Or autoimmune issues. And, heaven forbid, if someone's situation precludes having those right choices available to them.

One thing I've learned in my life is that it's easy to be confident about one's own circumstances and efforts until, suddenly, you no longer can. Yes, we need to pay attention to maintaining health. But getting ill does not equal having ignored what one should do.

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11 minutes ago, Mainer said:

I see the Brits cheering their NHS, the prime minister praising the NHS... and I just really want to have that here, too. 

thousands of American health care providers from all over the country are rushing in droves to NY city to lend a hand to the beleaguered doctors and nurses there, many have quit their current jobs to be in NY, many work without proper PPE - I think that this is one of the most unselfish and heroic acts I have seen so far in this crisis. So many states who themselves have infections are donating their ventilators to NYC so that they could get a handle on this crisis, for which I cheer for the states who are willing to stick their necks out for their fellowmen. There is a lot of good in this country and we could all cheer for them even if it is not an organized event on a nationally televised level. 

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2 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Oh for Pete's sake.  Good for you.  But I eat an excellent diet (Paleo, gluten free, dairy free, lots of whole foods, plants heavy), I go to Naturopathic doctors and I have still had chronic pain and illness for 30 years.  This oversimplification is like a slap in the face. 

I am sorry to hear that.  I definitely did not mean that to be a slap in the face.  I am a numbers and big-picture person who doesn't get caught up on outliers.  Yes, outliers are there, but not everything fits neatly into a box.  There have been numerous scientific studies that have been published, just since I've started digging into it ten years ago, showing how diet and lifestyle changes can not only help a person feel better, but make a person healthier.  Nothing works for an entire population, even modern medicine.  Best wishes on your journey.

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People who had asthma as children and haven't had issues in years/decades are being lumped in as preexisting conditions. There's a lot of generally healthy people who have had a condition that has never before put them in the at risk category who are getting really sick or dying. 

My only behavioral risk for my generally mild asthma is picking the wrong parents. Not a smoker, not overweight, never been around a significant amount of 2nd hand smoke, healthy, mostly plant based diet, no allergies, mostly lived outside of cities/high pollution areas...it's honestly offensive to suggest it's my fault. I guess my kids' who were premature have themselves to blame too. No, I didn't do anything wrong to cause them to be premature except to find myself pregnant with multiples. 

I don't think we are unusual and we are not at elevated risk for almost anything else. 

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3 minutes ago, hopeallgoeswell said:

I am sorry to hear that.  I definitely did not mean that to be a slap in the face.  I am a numbers and big-picture person who doesn't get caught up on outliers.  Yes, outliers are there, but not everything fits neatly into a box.  There have been numerous scientific studies that have been published, just since I've started digging into it ten years ago, showing how diet and lifestyle changes can not only help a person feel better, but make a person healthier.  Nothing works for an entire population, even modern medicine.  Best wishes on your journey.

I think you might be stuck in an echo chamber if you think Jean is an outlier.

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15 minutes ago, hopeallgoeswell said:

People with preexisting condition are always at greater risk for anything due to their decrease/compromised immune systems.  I am *not* saying that it isn't heartbreaking that these people are dying.  The high percentage of people with chronic diseases is absolutely alarming.

Where I'm coming from: I have a long family history, on both sides, of autoimmune diseases, a few specific cancers, diabetes, high blood pressure, and high cholesterol.  The medical system where I live (America) gives medication (or radiation/chemo/surgery for the cancers) for all of those diseases.  After decades, none of my grandparents have ever gotten off of any daily treatment.  They eat a typical American diet.  They go to several different doctors every month and pop whatever pills their doctors tell them to.  My parents started taking a different approach about ten years ago when my mom was diagnosed with cancer.  She already had an autoimmune disease and was a smoker with prediabetes.  Instead of following a path that most Americans take, she overhauled her lifestyle.  Within three months, her doctor was amazed at her results: autoimmune disease in remission, cancer not detected, no longer prediabetic, and overall health sharply increased. My dad got off of high blood pressure and thyroid medications.  They have stayed that way for the past ten years.  After seeing her results, my family started taking better care of ourselves.  My autoimmune disease, the same kind my mom had, went into remission.  If what science is uncovering about epigenetics is correct, hopefully my children will never express the genetic diseases .  We no longer need any prescriptions or OTC medications and we rarely get sick.  Immune systems are made to fight off anything attacking it. Fully functioning immune systems do this quite well.  I think of it like a car: If you drive a car and never take care of it, it's going to break down and not work properly.  If neglected for too long, something disastrous, like a tire flying off, will happen and then you get into an accident.  Who is to blame for the accident?

 

 

I think there is a lot to say for what you wrote above. I am managing my own autoimmune situation primarily with foods, and secondarily with vitamins and supplements. 

At the same time, not everything is directly the fault of people who have problems. Sometimes someone else crashes their car into ours, for example, using your analogy.

Perhaps we live in a toxic area, perhaps we are exposed to high levels of a contagious illness...and could not reasonably avoid it.  

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Just now, mathnerd said:

thousands of American health care providers from all over the country are rushing in droves to NY city to lend a hand to the beleaguered doctors and nurses there, many have quit their current jobs to be in NY, many work without proper PPE - I think that this is one of the most unselfish and heroic acts I have seen so far in this crisis. So many states who themselves have infections are donating their ventilators to NYC so that they could get a handle on this crisis, for which I cheer for the states who are willing to stick their necks out for their fellowmen. There is a lot of good in this country and we could all cheer for them even if it is not an organized event on a nationally televised level. 

Of course - I wasn't saying that our doctors and nurses around the country aren't heroic. I am constantly blown away by the sacrifices our medical personnel are making for their fellow citizens. It's incredible. I was just expressing my opinion that I wish our country could have one medical system, to make coordination between hospitals easier, to make insurance less confusing for everyone, etc. I'm not extremely informed about the nitty gritty of other countries' universal health systems, but I feel like we could do so much better if things were more streamlined. And if everyone was just enrolled in health insurance because they... are citizens.

A close friend of mine just went through some major health crises. She had to deal with doctors from multiple specialties, coordinate sending records between offices, realizing a couple times that the medications prescribed to her by different doctors actually had serious side effects when put together... etc. I don't understand why my non-medical friend had to be the one doing that. It was so hard for her to do while being extremely sick. And that's with great insurance.

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25 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Oh for Pete's sake.  Good for you.  But I eat an excellent diet (Paleo, gluten free, dairy free, lots of whole foods, plants heavy), I go to Naturopathic doctors and I have still had chronic pain and illness for 30 years.  This oversimplification is like a slap in the face. 

 

I disagree that its oversimplification, but  I would amplify the genetic component and the nutrition component of her solution. I ate well, organic, nutritiously and so forth...but it wasn't enough because of the epigenetics.  I have a much better life thanks to a local doctor and Anne Wojicicki's work...but if I ignored my epigenetics, and just ate what people think is nutritious, I'd be dead. Because of my genetics, I have to take certain extremely cheap supplements. My body will never be able to synthesize enough vitamin D and B12 even if I eat all day long sitting in the tropical sun naked.  And I'm not an outlier, the current estimate is over 25% of the population have genetic variations that affect their ability to methylate.  I'm thankful those supplements exist.  I also have to not consume any folic acid...which is very hard since the U.S. has added folic acid to the food supply and put it in the prenatals.  There are other genetic cases...the Mennonites for example hired a professional to solve Maple Syrup Urine Disease..built a research lab, funded etc.  It would be nice if the U.S. would at least screen everyone for Vitamin D level once in their lives and get that problem solved rather than let people with genetic variants proceed to much worse outcomes.  

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7 minutes ago, mathnerd said:

thousands of American health care providers from all over the country are rushing in droves to NY city to lend a hand to the beleaguered doctors and nurses there, many have quit their current jobs to be in NY, many work without proper PPE - I think that this is one of the most unselfish and heroic acts I have seen so far in this crisis. So many states who themselves have infections are donating their ventilators to NYC so that they could get a handle on this crisis, for which I cheer for the states who are willing to stick their necks out for their fellowmen. There is a lot of good in this country and we could all cheer for them even if it is not an organized event on a nationally televised level. 

 

Nowadays we could probably somehow organize our own cheer for the heroes event and stitch together short film snips or still photos into a YouTube .   We probably have a bunch of people in various places right on this thread. 

I think it would be wonderful!!!

 

I don’t have the skills, but I bet someone has a tech oriented kid who does!   @dmmetler ‘s daughter maybe ? I can’t recall who else has very tech savvy teens or young adults. 

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PM announced yesterday on her daily press conference that NZ will be doing batch testing to identify community spread.  Apparently, you can swab 50 people and run them all together in the lab, then only individually test those 50 people if the group result is positive.  This is an efficient way to use lab resources when the percent of the population that is infected is so low. We are capable of doing 6000 tests per day, so with 50 people batches, the limiting factor would be how many swabs we have, which is currently 100K in the country with 250K on the way. This is such an obvious approach, but I hadn't thought of it. 🙂

 

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I'm registered with the US embassy, so they are currently sending me daily updates as to travel. NZ borders are closed to foreigners, but the Ministry of Foreign Affairs are making transit agreements with many countries so that kiwis can get home. You let my people transit, and I'll let yours. So apparently now Americans stuck in the Pacific Islands can get home using NZ for transit.  I was pretty horrified by the unaccompanied minors statement at the bottom.  I hadn't considered that possibility.

U.S Consulate General Auckland

Traveling Through New Zealand Updates 

 After announcing yesterday, 7 April, that transit through New Zealand will be permitted for foreigners in the Pacific Island countries, the government of New Zealand issued additional guidance to consider as you prepare to travel. 

 Transit Visas Not Required 

 If you are transiting through New Zealand from a Pacific Island country en route to your final destination, you will not need a transit visa or NZeTA approval so long as you meet the other required conditions, which are that you: 

  • remain airside and cannot enter New Zealand; 
  • have a maximum 10-hour window to depart on your onward flight; 
  • have no COVID-19 symptoms, especially no fever (a temperature check may be undertaken); 
  • have had no close contact with a suspected or confirmed COVID-19 case; 
  • are not be awaiting a COVID-19 test result; 
  • have confirmation from your airline that you will be permitted to board for the entire journey; 
  • have confirmation prior to boarding that your destination country will permit arrival (note: this is not a problem if you are a U.S. citizen going directly back to the United States with no stopovers/layovers); and 
  • confirmed and ticketed flights for the full journey. 

No exceptions to these rules will be considered, such as lay-overs over 10 hours in length or requiring an overnight-stay or longer. If you are in this position, please e-mail AucklandACS@state.gov with your name, flight information, current location, and contact details. 

 Unaccompanied Minor Travel 

The Ministry of Education has been working with other New Zealand agencies, schools and education agents to provide guidance on how international students, and in particular those under 18, might access commercial or repatriation flights home. 

Edited by lewelma
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2 hours ago, Matryoshka said:

But on the other hand, NYC ambulance calls for heart-related events have been turning out fatal at 10x the rate over a year ago (was 20-something a day last year, since the lockdown it's been about 200-something a day).  I had been thinking that maybe this was some other complication of the virus, but if there's a similar decline in hospital, it does stand to reason that people aren't going in until it's too late: 

 

I just read an article--and now don't know where it was 😞 --that doctors are seeing heart failure a lot, and are trying to figure out how the virus is related; i.e., they think someone is having a heart attack and has blocked arteries, only to take them in and there are no blockages and a positive covid test. They are currently sharing information to try to figure out if the virus is directly attacking the heart or ?? (I was quickly scanning, and I'm not sure I caught all that correctly, but I found it a sad but interesting twist.)

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9 minutes ago, square_25 said:

I’ve heard of someone in the US (?) doing this, but I don’t remember where. It’s an excellent (and well-known) technique that works well when the rates are low.

It looks like we peaked 3 days ago, but they obviously want to collect more data.  The exit date for minimum lockdown is still 2 weeks away, and we are now at 50 cases per day out of 4.8 million people (we peaked at 89). 

In sad news, 2 of our nursing homes have cases, so it will be interesting to see how many more ICU cases we get.  Currently there have been a total of 8 in ICU over the last 2 weeks (3 have gotten better, 1 died, and 4 still in ICU). This is very low percentage for the 1200 cases identified, which as we discussed before, is likely due to locking down our elderly early and having >50% of cases due to overseas travel so younger people. Now that it has hit 2 nursing homes (each care for 50 people, but only 6 and 16 are currently testing positive), these ICU numbers will likely go up.  They have moved half of the residents out of the nursing homes to be cared for elsewhere, and have put infectious disease experts on location to make sure that everything possible is being done.  We will see. Crossing fingers.

ETA: these two nursing homes were identified with contact tracing before anyone was sick, so they caught them very early.

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49 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

Nowadays we could probably somehow organize our own cheer for the heroes event and stitch together short film snips or still photos into a YouTube .   We probably have a bunch of people in various places right on this thread. 

I think it would be wonderful!!!

 

I don’t have the skills, but I bet someone has a tech oriented kid who does!   @dmmetler ‘s daughter maybe ? I can’t recall who else has very tech savvy teens or young adults. 

People in NY clap for the Heroes every night.  People here across the country on the West Coast do the same.  There are YouTubes, Memes etc. that all thank the heroes. 

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And just to give you a feel for how the contact tracing works, one of the nursing homes is in the Ruby Princess cruise ship cluster.  The Ruby Princess left  Australia (with apparently some positive cases) for a 2 week cruise of NZ.  On their 8th day, they landed in Napier, and a van driver, interpreter, and tour guide got it from interacting with passengers, but didn't know it at the time. When the cruise ship got back to Australia a few days later, they found that lots of people were sick. So the contact tracing started in NZ, where they tested all NZers in direct contact with the passengers, and found the van driver, interpreter, and tour guide. They then traced those people's close contacts, and tested them, which is how they found the mother of the van driver had it, at which point they tested all the residents of the nursing home. The Ruby Princess is now the largest cluster in Australia causing 300+ cases and 11 deaths; but only a small cluster here in NZ but with deaths likely coming. What is great about contact tracing is that it identifies people before they have symptoms, so have less time to infect others. 

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34 minutes ago, square_25 said:

 

And I have a kid who largely exists on hazelnut butter sandwiches, fruit, and milk (very picky eater.) She also has a serious sweet tooth. 

She has no allergies, no respiratory issues, and no tendency to being overweight. Yes, it's partially lifestyle, but partially, it's just the cards you're dealt. 

 

Or... it may actually not be that unhealthy if it’s decent bread, plus basically nuts and fruits and milk if she’s not intolerant to any of that. 

 

(Also Even if it is a bad diet, some people  may be able to get away with eating poorly indefinitely and remain healthy.  But for many it may catch up with them at some point.) 

 

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2 hours ago, Sneezyone said:


I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again, some communities are disproportionately  affected by ‘Preexisting’ conditions that make their deaths justifiable to too many people. That same apathy and lack of care about SYSTEMIC failures in health care access, medical treatment, social capital and stress that’s has led to these increased numbers of ‘preexisting’ conditions in the first place. It’s shameful. These people are not disposable and so are the people who minimize their loss.

I am not sure why you quoted me when you posted this.  In my saying that I am surprised at how different people's experiences with death are, I in no way was implying that people are disposable.  I was not intending to minimize anyone's loss or justify any deaths.  I was simply reporting my experiences.  

I do think people's experiences, however, impact how much they see death as a part of life, or how surprised they are when they experience it.  I just walked by a house which has a date from the 1600s on it.  There is also a religious panting and the words (when translated approximate) "Holy Mary, watch over this house, field, and barns, and protect it from weather, sickness, and attack".  I think people who experience seeing things like that on a daily basis view life as more fragile (and less predictable) and out of their control.

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19 minutes ago, square_25 said:

 

A good friend who is running the COVID unit in her hospital told me they rewrote their protocols yesterday, subject to further change of course. MDs across the US are communicating directly with each other, adapting their practices, and finding new and better ways to help patients. 

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🙂  @vonfirmath @Æthelthryth the Texan Texas https://abc7news.com/6087033/

“The brothers transformed their small batch distillery into a massive sanitizer operation.

As most small business owners closed their doors, these guys increased hours. They are now operating 24 hours a day, seven days a week.

They hired 30 furloughed bartenders to help bottle, package and distribute bottles to the public for free.

"This is a way for us to kind of get on the front lines and fight this thing with the rest of Houston," said Chris.

Being on the front lines, serving and giving back all comes naturally for these Iraq War veterans.

"Definitely being in those high pressure situations kind of helps with what we're doing today," said Travis.

That training and service prepared them for a very big call from Texas Children's Hospital, which was running low on its supply and in need.

"And then they said, 'Well, we need 6,100 gallons to get us through six months,' and I'm like, 'Okay, that's a lot of vodka basically in my terms,'" said Chris.

It's the biggest order the distillers have received yet, and one Chris could not turn down.

"So we called them back and said we're going to do it. We're going to do it on donation," Chris said. "We're just going to take care of you guys."

Chris explained that it is the least he can do for the doctors and nurses he credits with saving his daughter's life.

Three years ago, she came down with the flu and her health deteriorated after also contracting croup.

"It's where they're constantly gasping for air, it's a really horrible thing for a parent to deal with," explained Chris.

After a week in the hospital, he says she was released, but only for the infection to get worse.

"I remember... we took her back down and she had to go into the ICU at Texas Children's, and that was very scary," he said.

His 2-year-old spent another week in the ICU.

Chris watched the health care professionals work around the clock to keep her breathing.

"When you see them with crash carts and hooking them up to all these tubes and wires, and she's crying and there's nothing you can do, but they did it. They were her parent that day. And they took care of her."

He hopes this hand sanitizer will protect those same nurses, doctors and medical staff as they continue their work to save children.

It's hand sanitizer, bottled by furloughed employees, packaged at no profit, by two veterans, signing up to help on the front lines again.”

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Don’t we all live imperfect lives and do things that aren’t optimally healthy anyway? It’s easy to pick reasons for why someone is responsible for whatever bad happens but the reality is that it’s still luck.
 

People with COPD from smoking will still recover from covid. People who eat nothing but Dingdongs and Doritos can still recover. Nobody deserves it. Maybe I don’t run a mile a day while my very overweight friend runs 5. Maybe there’s more to people than their bad habits. Maybe the person with heart disease is the most fantastic teacher! Maybe the health nut kicks his dog. I regret detailing why I’m not a stereotypical high risk for asthma person because it really doesn’t matter and much of it isn’t anything I did anything special to achieve. 
 

I agree the typical American and American diets could be healthier but in many ways we are healthier than our ancestors who survived the common diseases of today when they were novel.

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42 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

I am not sure why you quoted me when you posted this.  In my saying that I am surprised at how different people's experiences with death are, I in no way was implying that people are disposable.  I was not intending to minimize anyone's loss or justify any deaths.  I was simply reporting my experiences.  

I do think people's experiences, however, impact how much they see death as a part of life, or how surprised they are when they experience it.  I just walked by a house which has a date from the 1600s on it.  There is also a religious panting and the words (when translated approximate) "Holy Mary, watch over this house, field, and barns, and protect it from weather, sickness, and attack".  I think people who experience seeing things like that on a daily basis view life as more fragile (and less predictable) and out of their control.

 

It was a jumping off point not about you, specifically. There's a certain resignation about the deaths of people with 'preexisting conditions' that fails to appreciate or understand the increased toll on specific communities that are already overrepresented in a variety of negative social outcomes, health, wealth, income, respect, opportunity, etc. All of these things are connected. None of these deaths had to happen, are necessary, or deserved.

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1 hour ago, Jaybee said:

I just read an article--and now don't know where it was 😞 --that doctors are seeing heart failure a lot, and are trying to figure out how the virus is related; i.e., they think someone is having a heart attack and has blocked arteries, only to take them in and there are no blockages and a positive covid test. They are currently sharing information to try to figure out if the virus is directly attacking the heart or ?? (I was quickly scanning, and I'm not sure I caught all that correctly, but I found it a sad but interesting twist.)

There is some evidence that some patients develop what appears to be a viral cardiomyopathy from having the virus. I read a dr in Seattle’s account and he said they had had the experience, a number of times, where the patient seemed to be recovering and their lungs improving, when suddenly their heart function would drastically deteriorate and they would develop a ventricular arrhythmia, have a cardiac arrest and die.

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6 minutes ago, kdsuomi said:

Stanford Medicine is doing a study to see if COVID-19 has been in CA much longer than the first confirmed case, which is what so many here suspect. https://www.ksbw.com/article/new-study-investigates-californias-possible-herd-immunity-to-covid-19/32073873?fbclid=IwAR1EGneaA6t7K7fQlhWbkKVzjxy087UjLLy2mB34LViXRxc-Nni1MMa2Aho#

I am 95% sure that I (and many others in my circle) got it in January/early February. Because of where I live, the circles of people I move around in, because of who spread the covid19-like symptoms in January, because of the severity of the illness which spread immediately to my entire family, and because of the many people around me who got it at the same time, I have the same hypothesis as well. I plan get an immunity test whenever it is available.

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3 hours ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

 

But people like you, who are diagnosed, and find a solution, are still considered pre-existing in this count.  So, if you got COVID, and died, then people on this thread would say we shouldn't overreact to that because, after all, you weren't a healthy person.  That is true, but that is out of ignorance as opposed to malice.  My body chem is nothing like it was when my condition deteriorated.  I have a friend who is 95 and had breast cancer discovered in her late 50s.  People will say its pre-existing if she dies of covid 19 despite never having a recurrence in 40 years.  She'll laugh and say its old age...if it was really was cancer, covid19 would be the least of her concerns.  Someone has to do the science.

One of my kids has asthma.  At the point he was diagnosed, he was a two month old who had only ever eaten breastmilk.  So, even if you believe that his diagnosis is someone's fault, you can't possibly believe it was his fault.  Since then, we've taken a lot of steps to keep that under control.  We've made environmental changes to reduce his exposure to allergens.  We have no carpets, HEPA filters in multiple places in the house, shower before bedtime, etc . . .  I put a lot of effort into making sure his diet his healthy (and his siblings').  He gets a ton of exercise.  And his lung function is excellent.  No one would say "Oh that's a sick kid".  He's still a kid with a preexisting condition, and according to people on this thread, if he dies it won't be as bad as if his youngest brother dies.

 

Its very easy to declare someone 'the other'; makes it really easy to justify turning one's back. Trouble is the numbers are huge.  I'll bet there are people who have underlying conditions that survived, but no one is including those data points, just as they aren't quantifying cases resulting from nursing home poor practices, clusters due to religious practices, tenement like housing conditions and cases that are health care workers.  Remember when they were saying it was age....until they started having age 90+ walk out of the Italian hospitals?  They might as well sort by hair color.  We need people who can do the science and get to the root cause  What we have now is like saying the biggest risk factor for cancer is being overweight...well, yeah, that's a cop out.  We know from research that cancer under 50 is genetic, but despite all the cures we still turn our backs on the families and stick the victims with the costs, rather than including them as part of the human race and split the cost equally.

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1 hour ago, Jaybee said:

I just read an article--and now don't know where it was 😞 --that doctors are seeing heart failure a lot, and are trying to figure out how the virus is related; i.e., they think someone is having a heart attack and has blocked arteries, only to take them in and there are no blockages and a positive covid test. They are currently sharing information to try to figure out if the virus is directly attacking the heart or ?? (I was quickly scanning, and I'm not sure I caught all that correctly, but I found it a sad but interesting twist.)

And this is one reason why we don’t have a complete picture of what this novel illness is doing. We may find out that the death rate is higher in certain demographics than we even knew. 

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30 minutes ago, mathnerd said:

I am 95% sure that I (and many others in my circle) got it in January/early February. Because of where I live, the circles of people I move around in, because of who spread the covid19-like symptoms in January, because of the severity of the illness which spread immediately to my entire family, and because of the many people around me who got it at the same time, I have the same hypothesis as well. I plan get an immunity test whenever it is available.

 

I hope you will let us know results!!!

 

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40 minutes ago, TCB said:
1 hour ago, Jaybee said:

I just read an article--and now don't know where it was 😞 --that doctors are seeing heart failure a lot, and are trying to figure out how the virus is related; i.e., they think someone is having a heart attack and has blocked arteries, only to take them in and there are no blockages and a positive covid test. They are currently sharing information to try to figure out if the virus is directly attacking the heart or ?? (I was quickly scanning, and I'm not sure I caught all that correctly, but I found it a sad but interesting twist.)

There is some evidence that some patients develop what appears to be a viral cardiomyopathy from having the virus. I read a dr in Seattle’s account and he said they had had the experience, a number of times, where the patient seemed to be recovering and their lungs improving, when suddenly their heart function would drastically deteriorate and they would develop a ventricular arrhythmia, have a cardiac arrest and die.

 

We had a relatively near area case that presented as a heart attack.

 Rumor is that because it seemed to be “just “ heart attack not respiratory sickness EMT people didn’t have full PPE. 

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50 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

I hope you will let us know results!!!

 

Oh, I will. My DH cannot wait to get the test because he was the worst affected in my family and he now figures that he could go back to his workplace immediately if he had the antibodies (he can do his job more effectively if he were let into his workplace as there is a hands-on component to it with specialized equipment).

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This is an absolutely gut-wrenching, heartbreaking FB post from a nurse.  Please send this to any friends or relatives who are claiming that hospitals are mostly empty, or it's not has bad as the media are portraying it, or we should just let a few "old people" die so we don't wreck the economy.... 


I haven't posted a true update in days because I could not find anything positive to say. I tried since Thursday to change my perspective and be a ray of light in this dark time, but I just keep being beat down. I have never seen anything like this before, never taken care of someone that is so healthy but at the same time so deathly sick. I've been working in a makeshift ICU for days now because there were no other nurses to staff the area. There are not enough staff even though we get new people daily, not enough experienced staff (because who on earth can be experienced for this level of sick?!), not enough supplies. I can't count the times I have heard "well we could try and do this but we don't have this". I'm not an ICU nurse at all, but neither is hardly anyone else working these units now.

I've told Julio Macias 2 days in a row that I want to come home. But he talks me back off the edge each time because he knows how much I would regret leaving because at this point anybody at all helps. So I'm still here. Day 11 is done. Of course we can't share patient info, but being in an ICU setting I am keeping my same patients day after day until they die.

No one has left our unit yet except in a body bag.

I've struggled to find my purpose being here, but strangely enough Julio knew why before I ever did. I have been translating Spanish for days for these people, in my own broken Spanish because anything is better than them understanding nothing. I've seen patients arrive on our unit not yet sedated or vented but in extreme respiratory distress and beyond frightened. I have explained what COVID is doing to their body, what the risks are of being intubated vs not, and I have listened as these people have called their family members for the very last time prior to being intubated. If I can leave here with anything at all, I can know that I helped give them those last moments with their family.

After they are sedated, their personal belongings are still there. Their phones still ring. That's the worst is listening to the phones ring knowing someone is calling and praying they will answer just one more time.

These people are not old. They are young. Many with no medical problems. Strong people, physically fit. One who even worked 5 jobs at a time until Covid ravaged his body. This virus kills people. They all die at some point, it's just been a game of seeing how long we can keep them half alive. I feel like our efforts are futile, but I still try so hard and get so upset because I know that if it were Julio or anyone in my family laying there I would want the same done. When their bodies finally give up fighting, we place them in a body bag.

I've seen hundreds of people die as a nurse, but they are usually surrounded with loved ones or we give family time to see them to say their goodbyes. Not with COVID. There is no closure for anyone in this. I can't explain to you how bad this hurts, how real this is, and how afraid I am knowing that it could get like this in my own hometowns. I can't make you guys do anything, but I am literally begging you to listen to us healthcare workers and take this seriously. My heart hurts so bad tonight for these families who have lost people entirely too soon, for those who are sick and absolutely terrified, and for all of us who will surely have some form of PTSD after this is over.

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8 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

One of the worst things about this virus is that it's made clear just how many people are prepared to write off others, and blame them for their own illnesses, as if illness is an individual character flaw.

Like you, my illness is not 'lifestyle acquired'...but even if it was, to blame the individual is a vast over-simplification of a complex set of interactions.

People don't make 'choices' in a vacuum. 

 

I can't parse out what in my life is "my fault" and what isn't.  I mean, we all make a mix of choices.  Obviously I believe in healthy choices.  I wouldn't make the good diet choices that I make if I didn't.  I wouldn't push myself to exercise especially when chronic pain means that it's not "no pain, no gain" but "more pain when you push until you push too much and then it's so much pain that you just can't stand it any more".  I can't blame my parents.  My dad's family all live into their 90's.  My mom is 95 and still going strong.  They fed me right and exercised me.  When I got sick at at 21 (ish) I wasn't overweight.  I walked miles a day.  I ate a mix of good and bad food but didn't have a diet of Twinkies or anything.  I didn't smoke, do drugs.  I had quit drinking by then.  (Perhaps someone wants to blame my drinking in my teens? )

I have had people blame me for my health all my adult life.  They throw diets and herbs and essential oils and supplements at me and when they aren't the magical elixir then it's obviously something I've done to sabotage things or to make myself ill to begin with.

But guess what, despite chronic illness my kids have benefited from my being their mom (even if my teen won't admit it right now).  The kids I've taught over the years have benefited.  The people I have ministered to have benefited.  My husband has benefited.  The non-profit that I run has benefited.  Not saying that any of these people in my life would say that I was perfect or anything.  I'm not.  Just saying that my chronically ill self hasn't been this boil on the backside of life and that my life has had some impact on the world.  And I'm not alone in this.  I know a lot of people all over the world and while some people are lovelier than others, they all have value. 

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We're straying from the purpose of this thread with this unpleasant, little, rabbit trail. 

If anyone needs to talk about pre-existing conditions, keep it impersonal, please. Nobody should be feeling the need to justify their existence.

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3 hours ago, square_25 said:

 

Yep, there's clapping at 7 pm where I am :-). 

 

3 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

It's 8 pm here!

 

Don't forget the howling!

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43 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

Yes. It's not new, just exposed.

I think it's part of the human condition. It isn't necessarily writing other people off, it is...preventing panic or anxiety by rationalizing why something like that won't happen to me. It is callous when the reasoning it won't happen to me that I'm crowing about applies to someone else in the same room, but I don't think that people mean to say others are expendable because of whatever the reasoning is.

If you read The Right Stuff by Tom Wolfe about test pilots in the '50s and '60s it talks about this concept a lot. A lot of those guys died testing rockets and whatnot, but when someone in the squadron died, one of the other guys would always pipe up with,  "Well, of course he crashed; he didn't do X when he was supposed to," or, "if he hadn't panicked and done Y he would have been fine." When you say it out loud in front of the guy's widow it is horrible, versus saying it in a meeting discussing how to avoid the problem in the future. I think here sometimes it's trickier; discussing these risk factors for death from covid is clinical and self-protective but you're still talking about it in front of the widow, so it is harsh or comes off as uncaring. I am confident, or would rather give the benefit of the doubt, that when people say stuff along those lines they aren't saying those people are expendable or not valuable. I think some of it is clinical discussion and some of it is people wanting to feel like it can't happen to them (which honestly might be necessary to get through the day).

 

ETA: Typing this while Rosie posted. It took me awhile to consider it and type it up so I'm not deleting, but I understand if a mod feels they need to. 

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Worldometers numbers indicate that US deaths will surpass Spain's tonight (not that either country is capturing them all), maybe Italy's in two more days. Frustrating, because we didn't make rapid, well-organized use of information that would have helped.

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5 hours ago, bolt. said:

That's hard to hear, but I'm doing math... five employees have confirmed cases... they are obviously not supposed to come to work... but, also, neither is anyone who had direct contact with them. In a care facility of 90 beds, what kind of staff numbers would it have? I think that "Stay home if you were anywhere near 'these five people' in the last two weeks."  is the right message, but I can also see why it would easily lead to almost the entire staff saying, "Yes, I'm supposed to stay home because I saw 'so-n-so' in an elevator last week."

The quotes seem to cast the staff as slackers who are choosing to stay home (of their own will) out of self-preservation while the elderly go without care. That's unlikely. I think probably they were nearly all plausibly-exposed to the confirmed cases, which means staying home is right, not wrong. And so is relocating the patients to where they can receive care.

This is what happened in Spain.  Army ended up going into a nursing home and finding dead people. It turned out that almost the entire staff were sick or quarantined so the patients had effectively been abandoned.  

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5 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

I don't.  This is the same NHS which has wanted to do nothing and let the chips fall as they may because of a lack of resources.  But that is all I will say because of the "no politics" rule. 

We have the weird situation here where private hospitals were actually looking at having to lay off health care workers . The cancellation of all elective surgery effects them much more than the public system.  I think the latest I heard the public system were going to handle Covid and the private would handle non Covid stuff so they are effectively working together.

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3 hours ago, TCB said:

There is some evidence that some patients develop what appears to be a viral cardiomyopathy from having the virus. I read a dr in Seattle’s account and he said they had had the experience, a number of times, where the patient seemed to be recovering and their lungs improving, when suddenly their heart function would drastically deteriorate and they would develop a ventricular arrhythmia, have a cardiac arrest and die.

I wonder if this links to the blood think linked up thread 

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11 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I wonder if this links to the blood think linked up thread 

I am guessing that it could be a disease-induced version of takotsubo cardiomyopathy. It's usually stress-induced, but the stressor can be a physical one. It can cause death and arrhythmia, but when it doesn't, recovery is usually complete. 

 

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😞 Alameda County, California 

https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2020/04/08/coronavirus-update-85-people-east-bay-nursing-homes-6-dead/

“HAYWARD (CBS SF) — Alameda County health officials reported Wednesday a growing outbreak of coronavirus infections among staff and residents at two senior care facilities in Hayward and Castro Valley, leading to six deaths.

Gateway Care & Rehabilitation Center in Hayward currently has 59 people infected with COVID-19 – 35 residents and 24 staff, according to Alameda County Public Health Department spokesman Neetu Balram. Six of the infected residents have died.

East Bay Post-Acute Healthcare Center in Castro Valley currently has nine residents and 17 staff members who have contracted the novel coronavirus, said Balram. There have been no deaths attributed to the illness at the Castro Valley facility.

Health officials announced the outbreak on Tuesday, originally saying 12 healthcare professionals and nine patients at the center had tested positive. One of the patients had been hospitalized while the other eight were isolated at the center. The infected staff members were isolating at home with mild symptoms.

Balram said Wednesday the new infection count among the two care centers may be updated and should be considered a “point-in-time” count.”

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21 minutes ago, square_25 said:

I think it actually was in NY first. The percentage of CA’s tests coming back positive doesn’t support this hypothesis, either.

By the way, the Hoover Institute is not affiliated with the med school, so I’m not sure why they are getting involved.

They seem to have a rather intense interest in getting the economy reopened ASAP. They published the absurd essays (which are still up) by Richard Epstein, who predicted that deaths in the US would not exceed 500, and then when we passed that number like 2 days after he published the article, he claimed he "meant" to say the maximum would be 5,000. He is still claiming that it's no worse than the flu, and insists that it will become much less lethal very quickly because that's how viruses work. (He is a law professor with no background in medicine or even biology.) He is very much in favor of letting the old & infirm, who aren't productive workers anyway, die to avoid crashing the markets and tanking the economy. His essays have reportedly had a significant impact on administration policy. And the person from the Hoover Institute that was interviewed in that linked article, Victor Davis Hanson, is even less qualified — he is a military historian and professor of classics!

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31 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I wonder if this links to the blood think linked up thread 

I’ve been wondering that too.

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2 minutes ago, square_25 said:

I would really like people who say things like this to at least grapple with the significant risks to 50+ year olds. I understand that appeals to our common humanity don't seem to be working, but it's not even the case that we'd only be losing the "old and infirm." 

The second death in my state yesterday was a 62 year old woman.  According to the health minister she had a mild pre existing condition as would be expected of most 62 year olds.  

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