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5 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

A doctor named David Sinclair I think was posting similar on Twitter a couple of weeks ago.  He believes that is why the chloroquine is effective.  I don’t understand the science but he seemed to think it would also explain why it’s harder on people with diabetes.  I’ll see if I can find the thread.

 

March 14th https://mobile.twitter.com/davidasinclair/status/1238972087395659778

“new work out of China yesterday says COVID-19 might also involve abnormal blood production. CoV genes 1 & 8 are predicted to interfere with heme, the red compound in blood, by kicking out the iron. Would explain why chloroquine seems effective as a treatment #CoronaVirusUpdate

“Chloroquine is predicted to prevent orf1ab, ORF3a and ORF10 from attacking heme (red in red blood cells) and inhibit the binding of ORF8 to heme. Although 99% of the virus is seemingly stable, what's disturbing is ORF 1 and 8 are mutating the fastest...”

ETA:

“It may explain why diabetics and elderly are more susceptible. Blood sugar levels usually increase as we get older, increasing the amount of glycated hemoglobin (HbA1c) (I've tweeted about this before). The authors suggest these people would be more susceptible to because...”

“...the virus could more easily disrupt the heme in red blood cells. If so, the virus is very smart: it destroys the lung so patients can't take up oxygen AND reduces the body's ability to carry oxygen. (For this & other reasons, you should eat healthily the next 2 years)..”

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DS got home 3 hours ago!  ❤️❤️

Update-  my youngest is not only short of breath, coughing, dizzy, nausaues, and with headache-  she is also confused.  I called our doctor and talked with him and she is going to be going to the ER.

That's not a blanket right.  If my religion required human sacrifice, I can't practice it.  If my religion required sexual assault, I can't practice it. Freedom of religion isn't a blanket right

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12 minutes ago, itsheresomewhere said:

All 4H activities, fair etc are cancelled here through the end of August.  Since our university is part of our 4H through the extension, it makes me wonder if they are not planning for in person fall classes. 

Today ours cancelled everything through July 31. Made me a little hopeful that they are planning on classes on campus in the fall.

Two local universities have announced postponing commencement to August. That gave me a little hope too. 

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38 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

The dude flew halfway around the world to lecture a bunch of sick sailors about doing their duty while calling their former CO whom he fired naive or stupid for letting his letter leak to the media while speaking on the shipwide PA. Gotta at least admire his chutzpah were it not for his lack of self awareness.

I have also noticed that the navy is mighty quiet about who approved or insisted on that port call in Vietnam.

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10 minutes ago, Terabith said:

Yeah, that's the biggest issue.  Lots of folks in their 30s and 40s not doing well.

Something to note: Americans aren't very healthy (https://www.cdc.gov/chronicdisease/resources/infographic/chronic-diseases.htm).  Looking at the summary from NYC, approximately .08% and .03% of the people in the 18-44 and 45-64, respectively, have no underlying conditions (that does not include the few with pending results).  How does that compare to other illnesses?  How many people in America usually die from lower respiratory infections/pneumonia/influenza every year ( https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/leading-causes-of-death.htm#publications) ? How often do people in those age ranges succumb to other viral or bacterial infections?  I have found that putting things into perspective during this time helps with not overreacting. 

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8 minutes ago, hopeallgoeswell said:

Something to note: Americans aren't very healthy (https://www.cdc.gov/chronicdisease/resources/infographic/chronic-diseases.htm).  Looking at the summary from NYC, approximately .08% and .03% of the people in the 18-44 and 45-64, respectively, have no underlying conditions (that does not include the few with pending results).  How does that compare to other illnesses?  How many people in America usually die from lower respiratory infections/pneumonia/influenza every year ( https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/leading-causes-of-death.htm#publications) ? How often do people in those age ranges succumb to other viral or bacterial infections?  I have found that putting things into perspective during this time helps with not overreacting. 

I don't think it's overreacting to say that it's alarming that so many people under 60 are succumbing to this.  I'm 43.  Other than accidents and a couple of people with cancer (mostly children), I have not known anyone under 60 who died in my life.  I've known a few people who had cancer in middle age, but they've all beaten and lived with it.  Certainly, I know people DO die under 60, but I do not think that most Americans are so unhealthy that they're dying of viral or bacterial infections all the time.  I mean, folks my age, especially with younger kids, certainly get sick with strep throat or bronchitis or even pneumonia, but they get BETTER the vast majority of the time.

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1 hour ago, EmseB said:

The dude flew halfway around the world to lecture a bunch of sick sailors about doing their duty while calling their former CO whom he fired naive or stupid for letting his letter leak to the media while speaking on the shipwide PA. Gotta at least admire his chutzpah were it not for his lack of self awareness.

I have also noticed that the navy is mighty quiet about who approved or insisted on that port call in Vietnam.


For real. You didn’t expect those sailors to record you? I saw in a report today that the person who approved the port call was, as expected, very senior. Crickets from the flags.

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2 hours ago, itsheresomewhere said:

All 4H activities, fair etc are cancelled here through the end of August.  Since our university is part of our 4H through the extension, it makes me wonder if they are not planning for in person fall classes. 

We just got this notice today too.   Cancelling the entire summer seems like such a big deal.  It didn't seem so bad when things were closing down for a couple weeks or a month.  That's FIVE months of things being cancelled.  

Our governor also shut down all state and county parks today because too many people were having large gatherings.  

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@Ausmumof3@StellaM@Melissa in Australia@lewelma@kiwik

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/world/covid-19-uruguay-australia-new-zealand-greg-mortimer-12620210

“MONTEVIDEO: Uruguay said on Tuesday (Apr 7) it has authorised a humanitarian flight to evacuate Australian and New Zealand passengers stranded on a coronavirus infected cruise ship.

About 128 of the 217 people on board the Australian-owned Greg Mortimer, including passengers and crew, have tested positive for the deadly virus.

Six of those have been taken off suffering from a "life-threatening" illness for treatment in the capital Montevideo.

The plight of the Greg Mortimer is the latest affecting the global cruise industry, which has seen vessels refused entry to ports and others locked down after new-coronavirus cases were confirmed onboard during the pandemic.

The cruise ship's owner, Aurore Expeditions, has "contracted a medical plane ... to repatriate the Australian and New Zealander passengers", Uruguay's foreign ministry said, adding that the plane had been given permission to arrive on Thursday.

About 100 Australians are aboard, and negotiations were underway to allow the New Zealanders to fly with them, Aurore said.

The Airbus A340 plane contracted to fly the Aussies and Kiwis home "is configured with medical facilities aboard... to look after the health and security of everyone", said Aurore.

The plane will carry passengers who test both positive and negative for the virus.

...

As for the European and American passengers on the Greg Mortimer, they must "wait until they test negative" before organising their repatriation via Sao Paulo, the company said.”

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1 hour ago, hopeallgoeswell said:

Something to note: Americans aren't very healthy (https://www.cdc.gov/chronicdisease/resources/infographic/chronic-diseases.htm).  Looking at the summary from NYC, approximately .08% and .03% of the people in the 18-44 and 45-64, respectively, have no underlying conditions (that does not include the few with pending results).  How does that compare to other illnesses?  How many people in America usually die from lower respiratory infections/pneumonia/influenza every year ( https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/leading-causes-of-death.htm#publications) ? How often do people in those age ranges succumb to other viral or bacterial infections?  I have found that putting things into perspective during this time helps with not overreacting. 

Honestly I think you will find not a lot do usually. Even during H1N1 we only lost a very few in that age range where I work.

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@mathnerd

https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/coronavirus/bay-area-healthcare-workers-say-wearing-scrubs-in-public-sparks-fear/2269070/

“Some doctors and nurses in the Bay Area said they have to watch what they wear when they are in public. NBC Bay Area has learned that the healthcare workers' scrubs are becoming a stigma.

"We have had some nurses that have said anecdotally that they've been at the grocery store, or somewhere else, after they left work, and although people are grateful, they don't want them around them in their scrubs because they fear they're carrying COVID-19," said Mark Brown, chief nursing officer at San Jose's Good Samaritan Hospital.

Nurses at another South Bay hospital shared the same story of scrubs triggering fear.

"It definitely doesn't help when it comes to all the stress they're dealing with, but there is more education that needs to go on," Brown said. "It's nobody's fault. It's a new thing. It's a novel coronavirus."

Brown said his staff is now allowed to shower and change into civilian clothes at the hospital so they can go home without worrying about the negative public reaction.

"Doing our part when it comes to giving them our scrubs so they can go home in normal clothes and not have to worry about the scarlet letter attached to them, or bringing it home to their families," Brown said.

Brown also said looking at all the data, there is little concern of infection from hospital scrubs, but he understand the public fear.”

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Bno:  12,469 Americans died over the course of 1 year during the H1N1 flu pandemic in 2009. In just over 5 weeks, coronavirus has been linked to nearly 13,000 deaths in the U.S

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18 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

@mathnerd

https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/coronavirus/bay-area-healthcare-workers-say-wearing-scrubs-in-public-sparks-fear/2269070/

“Some doctors and nurses in the Bay Area said they have to watch what they wear when they are in public. NBC Bay Area has learned that the healthcare workers' scrubs are becoming a stigma.

"We have had some nurses that have said anecdotally that they've been at the grocery store, or somewhere else, after they left work, and although people are grateful, they don't want them around them in their scrubs because they fear they're carrying COVID-19," said Mark Brown, chief nursing officer at San Jose's Good Samaritan Hospital.

Nurses at another South Bay hospital shared the same story of scrubs triggering fear.

"It definitely doesn't help when it comes to all the stress they're dealing with, but there is more education that needs to go on," Brown said. "It's nobody's fault. It's a new thing. It's a novel coronavirus."

Brown said his staff is now allowed to shower and change into civilian clothes at the hospital so they can go home without worrying about the negative public reaction.

"Doing our part when it comes to giving them our scrubs so they can go home in normal clothes and not have to worry about the scarlet letter attached to them, or bringing it home to their families," Brown said.

Brown also said looking at all the data, there is little concern of infection from hospital scrubs, but he understand the public fear.”

Similar issues reported here in Aus

they also have an adopt a health care worker campaign going on where people offer to grocery shop etc for nurses/doctors who are working overtime due to covid19

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Just now, square_25 said:

Yeah, I think H1N1 wound up with a CFR less than that of the usual flu. Although of course, not having immunity is still a problem. But then they had effective antivirals, too, I think? 

I don’t really remember.  It didn’t end up being a huge thing here though there were a few unexpected deaths.

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5 minutes ago, square_25 said:

Yeah, I think H1N1 wound up with a CFR less than that of the usual flu. Although of course, not having immunity is still a problem. But then they had effective antivirals, too, I think? 

And a vaccine by October. We went into the local school and vaccinated hundreds of kids.

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23 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

Brown also said looking at all the data, there is little concern of infection from hospital scrubs, but he understand the public fear.”

Our local area is not to surge level yet, and my DH showers and changes before coming home, and he segregates all his work laundry to be washed separately. He's been encouraged to from the get go. With PPE shortages, I don't understand how going out in public in scrubs AFTER work can be particularly safe. And while he does get pretty close to some patients and does some direct care, he's not a nurse that would be giving even more direct care. Someone enlighten me. 

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1 minute ago, kbutton said:

Our local area is not to surge level yet, and my DH showers and changes before coming home, and he segregates all his work laundry to be washed separately. He's been encouraged to from the get go. With PPE shortages, I don't understand how going out in public in scrubs AFTER work can be particularly safe. And while he does get pretty close to some patients and does some direct care, he's not a nurse that would be giving even more direct care. Someone enlighten me. 

We are wearing hospital scrubs to look after Covid patients. If we are working in the non Covid section we wear our own scrubs as normally would. I wear my own scrubs in to work, if I’m on the Covid end I change into hospital ones. At the end of the day I change back into mine. I take my shoes off outside my car, put them in a bag in the back and put on different shoes to drive home. When I get home I go in the basement, own scrubs off and straight in the washing machine and then shower. I don’t stop on my way home, even for gas, because nurses in scrubs have been verbally abused and threatened in a town not far from here.

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1 minute ago, TCB said:

We are wearing hospital scrubs to look after Covid patients. If we are working in the non Covid section we wear our own scrubs as normally would. I wear my own scrubs in to work, if I’m on the Covid end I change into hospital ones. At the end of the day I change back into mine. I take my shoes off outside my car, put them in a bag in the back and put on different shoes to drive home. When I get home I go in the basement, own scrubs off and straight in the washing machine and then shower. I don’t stop on my way home, even for gas, because nurses in scrubs have been verbally abused and threatened in a town not far from here.

That makes more sense. 

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25 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

https://amp.scmp.com/news/china/science/article/3078840/coronavirus-low-antibody-levels-raise-questions-about?__twitter_impression=true
 

maybe concerning.  Research from China is showing some recovered patients have very low antibody levels, raising concerns about reinfection and possibility of an effective vaccine.

Quoting myself because I’ve been thinking about this.  It looks like the lower antibodies were mostly in younger people. So maybe we will have a vaccine for the more at risk older people even if it’s less effective in the younger population.  And is there a reason why older people seem to have a stronger immune system reaction and is that good or bad?

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1 hour ago, square_25 said:

Yeah, I think H1N1 wound up with a CFR less than that of the usual flu. Although of course, not having immunity is still a problem. But then they had effective antivirals, too, I think? 

I got H1N1.  I have never ever been so sick.  I was in bed for a full month (30 full days) and ended up with a sinus infection, lung infection, and eye infections, as the bacteria moved in due to my weakened state.  I also got a torn esophagus that took 9 months to heal.  I was 39 with no risk factors.    

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10 hours ago, Corraleno said:

I don't think you can extrapolate patterns like that based on a small number of random emails sent to one person.

 

Fair enough.

 I do still think different regions of USA have different predominant modes.  

10 hours ago, Corraleno said:

I think being concerned about planning and wanting to see some decent data modeling is much more a function of individual personality and circumstances. Some people are planners and some are more go-with-the-flow.

 

I have tended to be a planner.

My planning for this event is to anticipate longer rather than shorter. 

10 hours ago, Corraleno said:

People who have/had important plans and activities that have been postponed are going to be more anxious about knowing when those things can resume than those whose plans are more flexible or easy to reschedule. For me, personally, it doesn't much matter whether restrictions lift in two weeks or 6 months, but that difference would literally be life-altering for DS, and having a "best estimate based on what we know now" is far less anxiety-inducing than "we have no idea."

 

It is quite life altering for my 18 yo also. 

I don’t think 2 weeks is realistic. 

 

If people would do very hard core proactive Stay Home, if at all possible, so we could have a Hammer and Dance approach, I think 4 more weeks might be a possibility.

If people won’t very proactively cooperate with that, and even do more than the legal requirements if they are able to do so , then I think we might be looking at something more like 6 months with significant restrictions

Unfortunately even just from reading on the Covid19 threads on WTM, let alone what is in News Coverage I doubt there’s enough willingness to Stay Home in many countries  without fairly Draconian measures to enforce it.  I wish it were otherwise.  I don’t know if that will mean that there do end up being draconian enforcement measures in most parts of world, or whether that will mean a much longer drawn out half arsed measured restrictions approach instead of a short Hammer approach, and then a more extended Dance.  

The only place(s) I’m hearing about the necessary sort of cooperation is NZ.  And to some degree South Korea other than that mega church debacle. 

Personally, I don’t think “peaks” etc are as relevant as when

1) antibody testing might become widely available and used, and it becomes determined that there is already widespread immunity

and/or 

2) very effective treatments are widely available 

and /or 

3) Safe and effective vaccines might be widely available 

and /or

4 ) substantial natural immunity is achieved as evidenced by an end of new cases that continues as restrictions are carefully lifted (that is if antibody testing doesn’t work so that irl actual immunity has to be relied upon) 

 

 

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55 minutes ago, square_25 said:

Ugh. That sounds awful!! Sorry to downplay  it — I was just going off official stats. Sounds like there was more to it than that!

All good.  I was just thinking that young people do get very sick from these things, it is just not statistically likely.  I remember talking about it years later, and my mom was horrified "why didn't you call me, I would have come down to help out."  But you see, I was too sick to call anyone.  And at the time I was homeschooling my 5 and 8 year olds, and someone asked me what *they* did for that month.  Well, I have no idea.  I was too sick to watch kids. In fact, I was too sick to really care about anything. And strangely, no one else in the house got it.

Edited by lewelma
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Just now, CuriousMomof3 said:

 

What does bno stand for?

 

Breaking news online  - is a bit of a backyard news organisation but they seem to always check sources etc. and not post conspiracy - so I just tag so people know where I’m getting it from and how reliable it’s likely to be. 

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26 minutes ago, square_25 said:

That’d be my assumption. Especially combined with all the deaths at home...

 

I think that not going to hospital due to fear is definitely happening. 

Also on less disturbing side: perhaps being more careful and cautious about what is done— not (except stressed essential workers overdoing it) going out and trying to chop wood to exhaustion, mow the lawn on hot day in blazing sun...

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In re mixed messages and people not knowing what to do— I don’t know if this was already posted or not. And maybe even if it was, it is a good reminder. 

[Note: the linked article is from March 15, so some is out of date, as to level of legal physical closeness in the public arena,  but the overall message remains the same now as then, and people still seem confused or in some cases deliberately disobeying.

As article was written bars, restaurants, and I think also schools in NYC were still open. Orders to close schools came out that day, and bars and restaurants (except takeout maybe?) came out the next day...I think.

And I guess the situation in New York City shows some of the results of still having so much open as recently as March 15.]

The takeaway is:

” 

No Matter What Some Public Officials Say, the Message You Need to Hear Is “Stay Home”

Mixed messaging from all levels of government is putting Americans at risk and will speed the spread of the coronavirus. No matter what politicians say, public health experts agree. Stay home, even if you feel fine.“

 

https://www.propublica.org/article/no-matter-what-some-public-officials-say-the-message-you-need-to-hear-is-stay-home/amp

Edited by Pen
Added note to clarify article date so as not to have people be confused
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41 minutes ago, Pen said:

In re mixed messages and people not knowing what to do— I don’t know if this was already posted or not. And maybe even if it was, it is a good reminder. 

The takeaway is:

” 

No Matter What Some Public Officials Say, the Message You Need to Hear Is “Stay Home”

Mixed messaging from all levels of government is putting Americans at risk and will speed the spread of the coronavirus. No matter what politicians say, public health experts agree. Stay home, even if you feel fine.“

 

https://www.propublica.org/article/no-matter-what-some-public-officials-say-the-message-you-need-to-hear-is-stay-home/amp

Definitely a good message! But I was about to lose my mind reading the link, because I didn't realize how old it was (March 15). Please tell me NYC bars and restaurants are closed now. I am shocked that they weren't yet closed on the 15th... but until I saw the date, I thought my head might explode, lol.

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8 minutes ago, TracyP said:

Definitely a good message! But I was about to lose my mind reading the link, because I didn't realize how old it was (March 15). Please tell me NYC bars and restaurants are closed now. I am shocked that they weren't yet closed on the 15th... but until I saw the date, I thought my head might explode, lol.

 

Lol I’ll go make that clear in my post!

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9news Aus - Spain's death toll up by 757 amid data concerns

By Associated Press 

The Spanish coronavirus death toll has risen by another 757 fatalities over the past 24 hours and 6180 new infections have been confirmed, health authorities have said.

Both figures were slightly higher than yesterday's, when the first increase in five days was explained by a backlog of test results and fatalities that had gone unreported over the weekend.

But doubts about the statistics are being heard louder as fresh data starts to emerge.

Authorities have already acknowledged that a scarcity of testing kits and a bottleneck in the number of tests that laboratories can conduct on a daily basis are giving an underestimated contagion tally, which rose to 146,000 on Wednesday. 

Health Minister Salvador Illa said Tuesday that his department can only account for those who die and were tested. There have been few instances of post-mortem testing.

 

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10 hours ago, Arcadia said:

“Some doctors and nurses in the Bay Area said they have to watch what they wear when they are in public. NBC Bay Area has learned that the healthcare workers' scrubs are becoming a stigma.

This is also true where dd is. They have been instructed to wear their street clothes for their own protection. 

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10 minutes ago, square_25 said:

They've been closed for a very long time. They closed shortly after the 15th. 

 

😉 I am sure it seems like ages for people there! 😉

I am not sure though that just barely over 3 weeks is a “very long time” in terms of virus mitigation...    

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14 hours ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

 

I don't know why the death of people with preexisting conditions is less alarming, or worthy of reaction, than the death of people without.  Can you help me understand where you're coming from? 

 

I'm not the person you asked, but I hear this in my area .....most people are of limited resources and they feel 'you make your bed, you lie in it'...in other words, a person with a pre-existing condition often has a doctor that has been telling them for years to lose the weight, stop smoking, moderate the alcohol, eat nutritiously, brush & floss, and get a half hour of exercise daily.   Many of these people sneered at the doctor and yolo'd.  Those that write them off have no wish to bankrupt their families to do heroic measure to make sure these people don't die of one thing, only to die of something else three days later.  For ex, if you've gone with a friend to radiation treatments for cancer, you might have noticed some of the patients are in their late 90s and clearly dying of organ failure, but kept alive by machines...the radiation treatment is going to extend the time they can stay tethered to the machines. To working people with limited resources, that's money that could be used for something more important that is an immediate need.  They do not want to do the ROI in any circumstance that would show a small investment now can stave off a large cost later.  You might have heard Diane Sawyer about 9 years ago doing that type of analysis on breast cancer screening as a push back to those that wanted to sacrifice a significant number of women.

  No offense intended here to anyone's personal circumstances.

Edited by HeighHo
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Maine schools just officially announced they will be closed for the remainder of the school year. It’s not a surprise, but still tough to hear. 😞 

Grades for 4th quarter are pass/fail. SATs will not be given. All Maine colleges and universities have waived SATs for admission for the current junior class, and it sounds like that will be the case all over the country. Idk how it might affect international admittance, but since UK cancelled their A Levels and France cancelled their equivalent, I assume future opportunities won’t be negatively impacted.

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https://abc7news.com/6086403/

“DALLAS -- Hundreds of Southwest Airlines employees have tested positive for COVID-19, the airline's union said Tuesday.

TWU Local 556, the union for Southwest Airlines flight attendants, told WFAA-TV in Dallas that at least 600 employees tested positive.

The company, however, denies that, and released the following statement:

"Currently, far less than 1% of more than 60,000 Southwest Airlines Employees have tested positive for the coronavirus (COVID-19).

The safety and well-being of Southwest's employees and customers is our uncompromising priority, and Southwest continues to implement measures to maintain our aircraft cabins, airport locations, and work centers to the highest standards, while following all CDC guidelines, during this unprecedented time."


This comes hours after American Airlines announced a number of its flight attendants also tested positive for COVID-19.”

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8 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Suifenhe, a small city in northeast China on the border with Russia, has been put on lockdown due to cases of coronavirus- bno

Chinese in Russia are going back to China in droves by three entry ways, Suifenhe being one of the three.  Also, it is rumored that Russia is kicking them out, but my friend in Guangzhou said the Chinese voluntarily return to China. I've seen videos of them taking huge long distance buses to the three entry points into China. 

Guangzhou originally planned to open up schools, but since there is now another outbreak, they are delaying the school opening now. 

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@mathnerd 

Fremont, Alameda County https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/east-bay/50k-masks-seized-in-fremont-warehouse-raid/2269345/
“State investigators raided three different locations in Alameda County Tuesday, seizing stockpiles of medical masks doctors and nurses desperately need during this coronavirus pandemic. 

About 20 California Department of Justice agents walked in and out of a warehouse just off Warm Spring Boulevard in Fremont seizing N95 masks that a man now under investigation, claims he was selling to nonprofits.

“They took my computers, cell phone, everything,” said the man, who chose to remain anonymous.

He said he started selling masks about a month ago, claiming to have a business license from Wyoming and a seller's permit from California.

He said agents confiscated 50,000 masks, including 1,000 N95s.

“I bought the mask for $3.60 each mask, and sold them for $2.50,” he said. “For some, I make profits for others I lose money.”

He claims he bought the masks on eBay before mask sellers were shut down.

The Attorney General’s office confirmed they executed search warrants at three locations in Alameda County seizing N95 respirators, surgical masks and other items, but didn’t offer other details.”

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15 hours ago, hopeallgoeswell said:

Something to note: Americans aren't very healthy (https://www.cdc.gov/chronicdisease/resources/infographic/chronic-diseases.htm).  Looking at the summary from NYC, approximately .08% and .03% of the people in the 18-44 and 45-64, respectively, have no underlying conditions (that does not include the few with pending results).  How does that compare to other illnesses?  How many people in America usually die from lower respiratory infections/pneumonia/influenza every year ( https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/leading-causes-of-death.htm#publications) ? How often do people in those age ranges succumb to other viral or bacterial infections?  I have found that putting things into perspective during this time helps with not overreacting. 

Yikes. It’s the “well they were probably sick in some way anyway “ fallacy. Darwinism at its finest?  

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9 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/06/well/live/coronavirus-doctors-hospitals-emergency-care-heart-attack-stroke.html?auth=login-email&login=email
 

this is weird

hospitals are seeing a decline in heart attacks and strokes.  The most concerning explanation is people just not seeking care out of fear.  

But on the other hand, NYC ambulance calls for heart-related events have been turning out fatal at 10x the rate over a year ago (was 20-something a day last year, since the lockdown it's been about 200-something a day).  I had been thinking that maybe this was some other complication of the virus, but if there's a similar decline in hospital, it does stand to reason that people aren't going in until it's too late: 

 

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😞  Riverside county, California https://abc7news.com/health/covid-19-84-residents-evacuated-from-socal-nursing-home/6086909/

“RIVERSIDE, Calif. -- More than 80 patients were being evacuated from a nursing home in Riverside on Wednesday morning after employees of the facility "did not show up to care for sick patients two days in a row," health officials said in a statement.

The 84 patients will be moved from Magnolia Rehabilitation and Nursing Center, which has about 90 beds, to other health care locations throughout the county, the news release from the Riverside County Public Health Department said.

Riverside University Health System and Kaiser Permanente sent 33 licensed vocational nurses and registered nurses to care for the residents after only one of the facility's nursing assistants showed up to work, according to the statement.

There are 34 confirmed cases of the novel coronavirus among the residents and five among employees, officials said.”

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1 minute ago, Terabith said:

I don't think it's overreacting to say that it's alarming that so many people under 60 are succumbing to this.  I'm 43.  Other than accidents and a couple of people with cancer (mostly children), I have not known anyone under 60 who died in my life.  I've known a few people who had cancer in middle age, but they've all beaten and lived with it.  Certainly, I know people DO die under 60, but I do not think that most Americans are so unhealthy that they're dying of viral or bacterial infections all the time.  I mean, folks my age, especially with younger kids, certainly get sick with strep throat or bronchitis or even pneumonia, but they get BETTER the vast majority of the time.

I think it is overreacting to say that around one percent of the total death rate being in healthy people under 65 is alarming, especially when we don't know how many cases there are total, both symptomatic and asymptomatic.  No healthy person you have known has died from an illness, but what about the rest of the population?  I'm 37 and know of one healthy child who got sick suddenly and died.  I know of a few healthy adults who have gotten sick and died. A person's little bubble does not make a complete data set. 

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4 minutes ago, hopeallgoeswell said:

I think it is overreacting to say that around one percent of the total death rate being in healthy people under 65 is alarming, especially when we don't know how many cases there are total, both symptomatic and asymptomatic.  No healthy person you have known has died from an illness, but what about the rest of the population?  I'm 37 and know of one healthy child who got sick suddenly and died.  I know of a few healthy adults who have gotten sick and died. A person's little bubble does not make a complete data set. 

It is amazing to me how different people's experiences can be.  When I went to college, I was amazed at how many people had never been to a funeral.  When I had a doctor asking about family medical history and if anyone had died younger than 65, I realized it was a much shorter list to start with who had lived to be 65.  

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15 hours ago, square_25 said:

Here's our friendly local NY perspective. I found it shattering: 

https://public.flourish.studio/visualisation/1741938/

I've posted it before, but I think it bears repeating. 

Thank you for re-posting that.  I hadn't seen it yet.  You are in the middle of that, so it must be very real and all-encompassing for you.  Are all the numbers like that everywhere else in the world, though?  To take one data point and use it for all observations and then all future predictions isn't scientific.  NY has just over 6,000 deaths.  CA has just over 400.  Both have extremely large cities, both went on lockdown on the same day.  Is it not fair to say that NYC has some factors that are contributing to the rapid rise that aren't seen in most other parts of the world?

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2 hours ago, Bootsie said:

It is amazing to me how different people's experiences can be.  When I went to college, I was amazed at how many people had never been to a funeral.  When I had a doctor asking about family medical history and if anyone had died younger than 65, I realized it was a much shorter list to start with who had lived to be 65.  


I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again, some communities are disproportionately  affected by ‘Preexisting’ conditions that make their deaths justifiable to too many people. That same apathy and lack of care about SYSTEMIC failures in health care access, medical treatment, social capital and stress has led to these increased numbers of ‘preexisting’ conditions in the first place. It’s shameful and so are the people who minimize their loss. These people are not disposable .

Edited by Sneezyone
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1 hour ago, Jean in Newcastle said:
16 hours ago, hopeallgoeswell said:

Something to note: Americans aren't very healthy (https://www.cdc.gov/chronicdisease/resources/infographic/chronic-diseases.htm).  Looking at the summary from NYC, approximately .08% and .03% of the people in the 18-44 and 45-64, respectively, have no underlying conditions (that does not include the few with pending results).  How does that compare to other illnesses?  How many people in America usually die from lower respiratory infections/pneumonia/influenza every year ( https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/leading-causes-of-death.htm#publications) ? How often do people in those age ranges succumb to other viral or bacterial infections?  I have found that putting things into perspective during this time helps with not overreacting. 

Yikes. It’s the “well they were probably sick in some way anyway “ fallacy. Darwinism at its finest?  

 

I have known of a couple of fairly young people irl who died of hospital acquired infections.  One was definitely not respiratory, the other started with a badly broken arm, and somehow surgery to set the bone led to infection, then death fairly quickly  in a relatively young and apparently healthy man (a dad at school when my son was in brick and mortar kindy). I had assumed the infection started in the arm and became systemic, but I don’t actually know.   

Hospital acquired infection turns out to be fairly common as in this news bulletin related to Oregon hospitals, but same is true elsewhere too. 

https://www.klcc.org/post/hospitals-arent-safe-you-might-think

 

(I have to say that even aside from CV19, I am kind of wigged out by scrubs being worn here and there. As far as I recall, my family members in medicine changed out into regular clothing  at hospital or at least removed an outer lab coat layer. ) 

 

That said, the deaths and extended illnesses from CV19 are extreme and unprecedented for my personal lifetime of experience—including time overseas with physician parents who were working with at risk populations where illnesses  like cholera and yellow fever were endemic. 

 

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45 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

😞  Riverside county, California https://abc7news.com/health/covid-19-84-residents-evacuated-from-socal-nursing-home/6086909/

“RIVERSIDE, Calif. -- More than 80 patients were being evacuated from a nursing home in Riverside on Wednesday morning after employees of the facility "did not show up to care for sick patients two days in a row," health officials said in a statement.

The 84 patients will be moved from Magnolia Rehabilitation and Nursing Center, which has about 90 beds, to other health care locations throughout the county, the news release from the Riverside County Public Health Department said.

Riverside University Health System and Kaiser Permanente sent 33 licensed vocational nurses and registered nurses to care for the residents after only one of the facility's nursing assistants showed up to work, according to the statement.

There are 34 confirmed cases of the novel coronavirus among the residents and five among employees, officials said.”

That's hard to hear, but I'm doing math... five employees have confirmed cases... they are obviously not supposed to come to work... but, also, neither is anyone who had direct contact with them. In a care facility of 90 beds, what kind of staff numbers would it have? I think that "Stay home if you were anywhere near 'these five people' in the last two weeks."  is the right message, but I can also see why it would easily lead to almost the entire staff saying, "Yes, I'm supposed to stay home because I saw 'so-n-so' in an elevator last week."

The quotes seem to cast the staff as slackers who are choosing to stay home (of their own will) out of self-preservation while the elderly go without care. That's unlikely. I think probably they were nearly all plausibly-exposed to the confirmed cases, which means staying home is right, not wrong. And so is relocating the patients to where they can receive care.

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3 minutes ago, bolt. said:

 

The quotes seem to cast the staff as slackers who are choosing to stay home (of their own will) out of self-preservation while the elderly go without care. That's unlikely. I think probably they were nearly all plausibly-exposed to the confirmed cases, which means staying home is right, not wrong.

We have nurses strikes often enough that it isn’t unexpected but those usually have prior announcements. The news article however seems to suggest that the staff did not inform whoever in charge that they were going to self quarantine and not show up. 

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