wuhan - coronavirus

[Arcadia]

😢https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/world/pandemic-spells-death-sentence-for-india-s-non-virus-patients-12634956
“Pandemic spells death sentence for India's non-virus patients

NEW DELHI: Liver patient Shahjahan's family feared the worst when a New Delhi public hospital told her to leave because her bed was needed in a coronavirus unit.

The 40-year-old mother had been on a ventilator with an acute infection for almost two weeks when she left Lok Nayak hospital on Tuesday night (Apr 7).

She died at her family home in Delhi the next morning. Other hospitals had turned her away because of the pandemic.

"The authorities just left her to die. Even when they referred us to another hospital, they refused to give us an ambulance," said Mohammad Khalid, a relative of Shahjahan.

The capacity of medical facilities around the world has been stretched by the surge of COVID-19 patients as outbreaks worsen in many countries.

It can cause people with other life-threatening diseases to miss out on vital care - especially in places like India, where healthcare systems are shakier.

Dozens of people with serious medical conditions are camped outside India's national medical institute in tents set up by the Delhi government.

Many of them had travelled from other cities for now-cancelled appointments and cannot go back due to transport restrictions under the nationwide lockdown that began on March 25.

Outpatient departments at the All India Institute of Medical Sciences (AIIMS) closed, forcing cancer patients and others with deadly ailments to take shelter in a grimy pedestrian subway and under canvas.

Though aid groups have provided some food and medicine, it had been 12 hours since Saryu Das had eaten when AFP met him.

SUBWAY DEATH

His son, who had mouth cancer, lay on a thin mattress with his face covered by a scarf. Flies hovered around him. Four days later, he died.

Waste littered the subway floor that is now home to more than 10 families unable to get back to their hometowns, with the mattresses so close that social distancing was impossible.

The AIIMS did not immediately respond to requests for comment on the death and the patients outside. But hospitals across the vast country of 1.3 billion people have been put on alert and its virus death toll is now above 280.

When Prime Minister Narendra Modi announced the lockdown, he gave millions of Indians taking life-saving drugs only four hours' notice.

Amulya Nidhi, a health activist based in Madhya Pradesh state, told AFP the government knew that vulnerable patients - including those with silicosis and tuberculosis, which kills tens of thousands each year in India, as well as pregnant women - were at risk.

"I'm getting distress calls from across India over access to basic medicines and treatment," said Nidhi.”

[redmom3]

FYI—In Peak Prosperity’s latest  video he shows some indication of a “pseudo frostbite” being a COVID Symptom.

 

[Ausmumof3]

Tasmania’s Premier closes hospitals

ABC News: Matt Wordsworth

Peter Gutwein has announced the North West Regional Hospital and North West Private Hospital in Burnie will close because of the coronavirus outbreak.

      

All staff and their households will go into quarantine.

     

That’ll involve more than 1,000 people.

     

Of the 133 cases in Tasmania, 61 linked to the north-west coast, 35 are health care workers at the hospitals.

 

Staff and their household members will be required to quarantine for 14 days, from their last shift.

     

The hospitals will be closed for a deep clean.

     

There will also be broader restrictions on the north-west community.

   

"We’re sorry that we've needed to do this but at the end of the day we need to get on top of this," Mr Gutwein said.

[Ausmumof3]

No new cases in my state today.

glad for some good news.

[JennyD]

Israel is up to 10,878 cases, 103 deaths.  We have been on partial lockdown for 4 weeks and complete lockdown for 2.5 weeks.  The growth in new cases is slowing gradually but also steadily.  Clearly we are going to be at this for a while.

Israel has a young population -- median age 30 -- and I think that is really saving the country's (non-kosher) bacon, deaths-wise.  And the ultra-Orthodox areas that have been by far the hardest hit have an even younger median age; in some cities half the population is under the age of 18.

There are a lot of plans for reopening the country circulating around, some of them straight-up bananas.  Let's divide the country into two groups, and each one goes out on alternating weeks!  Or everyone goes out for two days, then we're all locked down for 10!  

It's all very messy and chaotic (Israel) but It looks like ultimately the country is going to wind up with (1) expanded testing, if they can manage it, (2) geographically-based restrictions; and (3) a super-gradual resumption of economic activity, spread out over many months.  So far the economic fallout is being dealt with primarily through the unemployment system, but obviously there will have to be much more intervention.  No idea what the plan is for the tourism sector and El Al, which are just obliterated.

I have been wondering how other countries are dealing with infections among military personnel, though?  Soldiers have been infected here and while they are all young obviously it's a huge potential threat to military readiness.  Controlling the spread in the IDF has been a major priority.

 

Edited April 12, 2020 by JennyD

[Penguin]

7 hours ago, Pen said:

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/how-sweden-and-denmark-represent-opposite-scandinavian-covid-19-responses

 

The difference between the Swedish approach and the Danish approach is vast.

Denmark is reopening K through 5 schools next week with some new protective measures in place, one of which is the instruction to keep the kids outside as much as possible.

[Arcadia]

@TCB@Plumhttps://www.latimes.com/science/story/2020-04-05/viagra-discovery-could-treat-coronavirus-patients
 

“At hospitals in Boston, Alabama, Louisiana, Sweden and Austria, researchers have launched a clinical trial to test inhaled nitric oxide in patients with mild to moderate cases of COVID-19. The trial will test whether the gas can drive down the number of patients who end up needing breathing assistance from a mechanical ventilator, a piece of equipment that’s in critically short supply. 

For about 30 minutes two or three times a day, study participants assigned to the trial’s active arm will inhale a high dose of nitric oxide through a mask. A control group will go without the gas.

In Italy, where the gas was used under more haphazard conditions, the treatment appeared to dramatically boost oxygen levels in the blood of COVID-19 patients, said Dr. Lorenzo Berra, the critical-care specialist at Massachusetts General Hospital who is leading the new trial. But it’ll take more rigorous testing to clarify how much nitric oxide helps, he said. 

A proposed second trial, still under scrutiny by a research panel at Massachusetts General Hospital, would enroll healthcare workers who are routinely exposed to patients with COVID-19 and are themselves at high risk of infection. For 10 to 15 minutes at the start and end of every shift, doctors and nurses would tug on a handheld device and inhale a high dose of nitric oxide.”

 

Edited April 12, 2020 by Arcadia

[73349]

DS did have a rash on the back of one hand, inexplicably, for a couple of days when he had cold symptoms. Interesting.

 

[Pen]

1 hour ago, Arcadia said:

@TCB@Plumhttps://www.latimes.com/science/story/2020-04-05/viagra-discovery-could-treat-coronavirus-patients
 

“At hospitals in Boston, Alabama, Louisiana, Sweden and Austria, researchers have launched a clinical trial to test inhaled nitric oxide in patients with mild to moderate cases of COVID-19. The trial will test whether the gas can drive down the number of patients who end up needing breathing assistance from a mechanical ventilator, a piece of equipment that’s in critically short supply. 

For about 30 minutes two or three times a day, study participants assigned to the trial’s active arm will inhale a high dose of nitric oxide through a mask. A control group will go without the gas.

In Italy, where the gas was used under more haphazard conditions, the treatment appeared to dramatically boost oxygen levels in the blood of COVID-19 patients, said Dr. Lorenzo Berra, the critical-care specialist at Massachusetts General Hospital who is leading the new trial. But it’ll take more rigorous testing to clarify how much nitric oxide helps, he said. 

A proposed second trial, still under scrutiny by a research panel at Massachusetts General Hospital, would enroll healthcare workers who are routinely exposed to patients with COVID-19 and are themselves at high risk of infection. For 10 to 15 minutes at the start and end of every shift, doctors and nurses would tug on a handheld device and inhale a high dose of nitric oxide.”

 

 

👍

This sounds remarkably promising!!!

 

[TCB]

58 minutes ago, whitehawk said:

DS did have a rash on the back of one hand, inexplicably, for a couple of days when he had cold symptoms. Interesting.

 

It is fairly common to get a rash as a result of a virus. When I did a telephone triage job for a while I spoke to many people for whom this seemed to be the probable origin of their rash. 

[Corraleno]

The PM of Sint Maarten: "Simply. Stop. Moving. If you don't have the type of bread you like in your house, eat crackers! If you don't have crackers, eat cereal!"

This is the kind of leadership we need — a mom who has had ENOUGH and is like "don't make me count to 3...!" 😂

 

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

1 hour ago, Corraleno said:

The PM of Sint Maarten: "Simply. Stop. Moving. If you don't have the type of bread you like in your house, eat crackers! If you don't have crackers, eat cereal!"

This is the kind of leadership we need — a mom who has had ENOUGH and is like "don't make me count to 3...!" 😂

 

 

Gave me goosebumps and tears.  Amazing, rallying, no-nonsense speech!  

[Pen]

1 hour ago, Corraleno said:

The PM of Sint Maarten: "Simply. Stop. Moving. If you don't have the type of bread you like in your house, eat crackers! If you don't have crackers, eat cereal!"

This is the kind of leadership we need — a mom who has had ENOUGH and is like "don't make me count to 3...!" 😂

 

 

Would love to see that on some of the other threads too (endgame,  one’s about people getting antsy...) 

[SeaConquest]

A little late, but re shingles, one way to tell it apart from other rashes is that shingles follows along nerve paths (dermatomes), instead of being diffuse.

The back is a common location. You can see how the rash is following along a nerve path, which is why shingles is so painful.

https://www.nhsdirect.wales.nhs.uk/shingles?locale=en 

[Ausmumof3]

China has imposed restrictions on the publication of academic research on the origins of the novel coronavirus, according to a central government directive and online notices published by two Chinese universities, that have since been removed from the web.

Under the new policy, all academic papers on COVID-19 will be subject to extra vetting before being submitted for publication.

Studies on the origin of the virus will receive extra scrutiny and must be approved by central government officials, according to the now-deleted posts.

A medical expert in Hong Kong who collaborated with mainland researchers to publish a clinical analysis of COVID-19 cases in an international medical journal said his work did not undergo such vetting in February.

The increased scrutiny appears to be the latest effort by the Chinese government to control the narrative on the origins of the coronavirus pandemic, which has claimed more than 100,000 lives and sickened 1.7 million people worldwide since it first broke out in the Chinese city of Wuhan in December.

Since late January, Chinese researchers have published a series of COVID-19 studies in influential international medical journals.

Some findings about early coronavirus cases - such as when human-to-human transition first appeared - have raised questions over the official government account of the outbreak and sparked controversy on Chinese social media.

And now, Chinese authorities appear to be tightening their grip on the publication of COVID-19 research.

Chinese President Xi Jinping visits the Chuanshan port area of the Ningbo-Zhoushan Port in east China's Zhejiang Province. Credit: Ju Peng/AP

A Chinese researcher who spoke on condition of anonymity due to fear of retaliation said the move was a worrying development that would likely obstruct important scientific research.

“I think it is a coordinated effort from (the) Chinese government to control (the) narrative, and paint it as if the outbreak did not originate in China,” the researcher told CNN.

“And I don’t think they will really tolerate any objective study to investigate the origination of this disease.”

CNN has reached out to China’s foreign ministry for comment.

Increased scrutiny

According to the directive issued by the Ministry of Education’s science and technology department, “academic papers about tracing the origin of the virus must be strictly and tightly managed.”

The directive lays out layers of approval for these papers, starting with the academic committees at universities.

They are then required to be sent to the education ministry’s science and technology department, which then forwards the papers to a task-force under the State Council for vetting.

Only after the universities hear back from the task-force can the papers be submitted to journals.

Other papers on COVID-19 will be vetted by universities’ academic committees, based on conditions such as the “academic value” of the study, and whether the “timing for publishing” is right.

Medical workers from China’s Jilin Province react as they prepare to return home after Wuhan’s 11-week lockdown. Credit: Ng Han Guan/AP

The directive is based on instructions issued during a March 25 meeting held by the State Council’s task-force on the prevention and control of COVID-19, it said.

The document was first posted Friday morning on the website of the Fudan University in Shanghai, one of China’s leading universities.

When CNN called a contact number left at the end of the notice, a staff member of the education ministry’s science and technology department confirmed they had issued the directive.

“It is not supposed to be made public - it is an internal document,” said the person, who refused to reveal his name.

A few hours later, the Fudan University page was taken down.

The China University of Geoscience in Wuhan also posted a similar notice about the extra vetting on COVID-19 papers on its website.

The page has since been deleted, but a cached version of it remains accessible.

Additional checks

The Chinese researcher who spoke to CNN said the notice was issued a few days ago, adding that only COVID-19 research was subject to the additional checks.

David Hui Shu-cheong, a respiratory medicine expert at the Chinese University of Hong Kong, said he did not encounter any additional vetting when he and a team of mainland Chinese researchers published a clinical analysis of COVID-19 cases in the New England Journal of Medicine in February.

“The process was really simple then,” he told CNN over the phone.

Hui said he was still revising the draft of the paper until 3 am on the day it was due for submission, and the paper was sent to the NEJM by midday.

“There was completely no restriction at all,” he said.

“I don’t know if it is because some researchers published something that is considered sensitive domestically in China. (I’m) not sure if it is because of the controversy about the origin of the virus later, and the non-sensitive stuff becomes sensitive too.”

Origin of the virus

In late December, Wuhan reported the first cases of the coronavirus, linked by authorities to a seafood market in the city.

Scientists in China and the West have said the virus is likely to have originated in bats and jumped to humans from an intermediate host - just like its cousin that caused the SARS epidemic in 2002 and 2003.

However, parts of Chinese social media and even the country’s government appear to have launched a concerted campaign to question the origin of the virus.

Chinese officials and state media have repeatedly stressed that there has been no conclusion on the exact origin of the virus.

Last month, Zhao Lijian, a spokesperson of the Chinese Foreign Ministry, promoted a conspiracy on Twitter that the virus had originated in the US and was brought to China by the US military.

In China, research papers on the coronavirus are already subjected to layers of vetting after they are submitted to Chinese academic journals, according to an editor at a Chinese medical journal.

[BeachGal]

On 4/11/2020 at 6:16 AM, TravelingChris said:

I really, really hope it is a dead virus vaccine because otherwise,  myself and a lot of other high risk people will not be able to get the vaccine.

 

Vaccine development has changed quite a bit in the past decade or so. Using inactivated or weakened viruses is considered an old approach. According to what I’ve been reading, it will very likely (almost certainly) not be used for the Covid vaccine. 

[mommyoffive]

https://time.com/5819755/fauci-rolling-reentry-economy-may-coronavirus/

[Arcadia]

@mathnerd@TCB@wathe@Alice@BeachGal@TravelingChris

http://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2020/03/covid-19-can-coexist-with-other-respiratory-viruses.html

“COVID-19 patients often infected with other respiratory viruses, preliminary study reports

About 1 in 5 people with COVID-19 are also infected with other respiratory viruses, according to a preliminary analysis led by Ian Brown, MD, a clinical associate professor of emergency medicine at the Stanford School of Medicine.

In addition, the analysis found that about 1 in 10 people who exhibit symptoms of respiratory illness at an emergency department, and who are subsequently diagnosed with a common respiratory virus, are co-infected with the COVID-19 virus.

The findings challenge the assumption that people are unlikely to have COVID-19 if they have another type of viral respiratory disease.

“Currently, if a patient tests positive for a different respiratory virus, we believe that they don’t have COVID-19,” said Nigam Shah, MBBS, PhD, associate professor of medicine and of biomedical data science at the medical school. “However, given the co-infection rates we’ve observed in this sample, that is an incorrect assumption.”

Accurate and rapid testing for SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19, is necessary to identify those who are infected and slow the spread of the disease. Understanding the likelihood of co-infection is an important step in this process. 

“Hospitals don’t have unlimited access to COVID testing,” Brown said. “In some cases, a patient with respiratory symptoms may first be tested for a non-COVID virus. If there is a diagnosis of influenza or rhinovirus, or other respiratory virus, a hospital may discharge the patient without COVID testing, concluding that the alternative diagnosis is the reason for the symptoms.”

Brown and his colleagues analyzed 562 people recently tested for COVID-19 at Stanford Health Care’s Marc and Laura Andreessen Emergency Department. Forty-nine of those people tested positive for infection with SARS-CoV-2.

Of the 562 people, 517 were also tested for the presence of other common respiratory viruses, such as influenza A and B, respiratory syncytial virus, rhinovirus, adenovirus and several types of pneumonia. One hundred and twenty seven received a positive result for one of these other respiratory viruses. 

Of the people tested for both SARS-CoV-2 and other respiratory viruses, eleven people — or about 22% of the 49 confirmed COVID-19 cases and 8.7% of the 127 people with other respiratory viruses — were found to be co-infected with both kinds of viruses.

The researchers shared their findings March 18 on Medium.com, an online publishing platform, at the request of the California Department of Public Health.”

findings Medium link https://medium.com/@nigam/higher-co-infection-rates-in-covid19-b24965088333

[Pen]

27 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

@mathnerd@TCB@wathe@Alice@BeachGal@TravelingChris

http://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2020/03/covid-19-can-coexist-with-other-respiratory-viruses.html

“COVID-19 patients often infected with other respiratory viruses, preliminary study reports

About 1 in 5 people with COVID-19 are also infected with other respiratory viruses, according to a preliminary analysis led by Ian Brown, MD, a clinical associate professor of emergency medicine at the Stanford School of Medicine.

In addition, the analysis found that about 1 in 10 people who exhibit symptoms of respiratory illness at an emergency department, and who are subsequently diagnosed with a common respiratory virus, are co-infected with the COVID-19 virus.

The findings challenge the assumption that people are unlikely to have COVID-19 if they have another type of viral respiratory disease.

“Currently, if a patient tests positive for a different respiratory virus, we believe that they don’t have COVID-19,” said Nigam Shah, MBBS, PhD, associate professor of medicine and of biomedical data science at the medical school. “However, given the co-infection rates we’ve observed in this sample, that is an incorrect assumption.”

Accurate and rapid testing for SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19, is necessary to identify those who are infected and slow the spread of the disease. Understanding the likelihood of co-infection is an important step in this process. 

“Hospitals don’t have unlimited access to COVID testing,” Brown said. “In some cases, a patient with respiratory symptoms may first be tested for a non-COVID virus. If there is a diagnosis of influenza or rhinovirus, or other respiratory virus, a hospital may discharge the patient without COVID testing, concluding that the alternative diagnosis is the reason for the symptoms.”

Brown and his colleagues analyzed 562 people recently tested for COVID-19 at Stanford Health Care’s Marc and Laura Andreessen Emergency Department. Forty-nine of those people tested positive for infection with SARS-CoV-2.

Of the 562 people, 517 were also tested for the presence of other common respiratory viruses, such as influenza A and B, respiratory syncytial virus, rhinovirus, adenovirus and several types of pneumonia. One hundred and twenty seven received a positive result for one of these other respiratory viruses. 

Of the people tested for both SARS-CoV-2 and other respiratory viruses, eleven people — or about 22% of the 49 confirmed COVID-19 cases and 8.7% of the 127 people with other respiratory viruses — were found to be co-infected with both kinds of viruses.

The researchers shared their findings March 18 on Medium.com, an online publishing platform, at the request of the California Department of Public Health.”

findings Medium link https://medium.com/@nigam/higher-co-infection-rates-in-covid19-b24965088333

 

Thanks.  My state requires someone to be sick enough to need to be in hospital, the required testing for other viruses first, and only allows a SARS-CoV-2 test if other tests are negative. 

[kbutton]

32 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

http://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2020/03/covid-19-can-coexist-with-other-respiratory-viruses.html

“COVID-19 patients often infected with other respiratory viruses, preliminary study reports

 I need to be sure DH sees this. He's never bought the line that co-infection was unlikely. 

[Ausmumof3]

Wapo

Trump retweets call to fire Anthony Fauci after the coronavirus expert says earlier measures "could have saved lives"

[Bootsie]

23 hours ago, Penguin said:

The difference between the Swedish approach and the Danish approach is vast.

Denmark is reopening K through 5 schools next week with some new protective measures in place, one of which is the instruction to keep the kids outside as much as possible.

The differences in the approaches are drastic, but it appears that both countries have seen a doubling in cases about every 10 days, with about twice as many cases at 10 days ago and 4 times as many cases since March 25

[TravelingChris]

11 hours ago, BeachGal said:

 

Vaccine development has changed quite a bit in the past decade or so. Using inactivated or weakened viruses is considered an old approach. According to what I’ve been reading, it will very likely (almost certainly) not be used for the Covid vaccine. 

The newest vaccine to come out was the Shingrix, which is not a live vaccine and actually much better at protecting people from shingles than the original, live virus shingles vaccine.

[TravelingChris]

2 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Wapo

Trump retweets call to fire Anthony Fauci after the coronavirus expert says earlier measures "could have saved lives"

Number one=-  Washington Post has been a highly unreliable newspaper for reporting on inside administration details,  They have reported on firings of people that have not happened so many times, reported so-called inside scoops that turned out to be the exact opposite of a policy,  reported misleading reports of policy that are so misleading that people panic but the policy is a slight tweak that should have no one panicking at all (something like Trump is cutting all funding for blank when in reality, his proposed budget is calling for a slightly smaller increase in budget like instead of a 10% raise in budget for a coming year a 9.5% increase), etc, etc.  

Number two=== Fauci was one of the people who could have saved lives and isn't doing it.  He kept spouting the lies that it wasn't airborne until last week or end of the week before.  He also kept discouraging the hydroxychloroquine/zinc/Z-pack combo, although it is saving lives.  

[Ausmumof3]

8 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

Number one=-  Washington Post has been a highly unreliable newspaper for reporting on inside administration details,  They have reported on firings of people that have not happened so many times, reported so-called inside scoops that turned out to be the exact opposite of a policy,  reported misleading reports of policy that are so misleading that people panic but the policy is a slight tweak that should have no one panicking at all (something like Trump is cutting all funding for blank when in reality, his proposed budget is calling for a slightly smaller increase in budget like instead of a 10% raise in budget for a coming year a 9.5% increase), etc, etc.  

Number two=== Fauci was one of the people who could have saved lives and isn't doing it.  He kept spouting the lies that it wasn't airborne until last week or end of the week before.  He also kept discouraging the hydroxychloroquine/zinc/Z-pack combo, although it is saving lives.  

I understand they are quite left wing.  I did check the @trump account and found the retweet though so I think it’s true though maybe not with the level of weight given.  I don’t know much about Fauci except he seemed to be widely praised here earlier.  I don’t know about the chloroquine thing.  I think they were discouraging people here from going crazy buying up on it because it was causing shortages for people who rely on it aside from the Covid thing but I need to check that because it’s a while ago I read it.

[Paige]

45 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

 

Number two=== Fauci was one of the people who could have saved lives and isn't doing it.  He kept spouting the lies that it wasn't airborne until last week or end of the week before.  He also kept discouraging the hydroxychloroquine/zinc/Z-pack combo, although it is saving lives.  

It's not a lie if you believe it to be true. It's a mistake. I think there's so much confusing data with covid and everything is so new that it is unsurprising if we are finding out new info daily. At first people thought it wasn't spread person to person, turns out that was wrong. People thought it wasn't airborne, or that asymptomatic people weren't contagious; they were wrong. But that doesn't mean people were lying- they were just wrong. 

As far as potential drugs...we still don't know if they work. The evidence is conflicting. That's all Dr Fauci said. He said some evidence said it worked, and some said it had no effect, and it was too soon to know. I don't think it should be promoted as the first line drug when there's others that have also shown promise. We won't know which is best unless they are all trialed.

[Pawz4me]

57 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

Number one=-  Washington Post has been a highly unreliable newspaper for reporting on inside administration details,  They have reported on firings of people that have not happened so many times, reported so-called inside scoops that turned out to be the exact opposite of a policy,  reported misleading reports of policy that are so misleading that people panic but the policy is a slight tweak that should have no one panicking at all (something like Trump is cutting all funding for blank when in reality, his proposed budget is calling for a slightly smaller increase in budget like instead of a 10% raise in budget for a coming year a 9.5% increase), etc, etc. 

He retweeted. That is an undeniable fact. I mean unless he deleted it (he often does go back and delete controversial things) then it's still there for anyone who wants to look. And even if he did delete it I'm sure there are plenty of screenshots.

[TravelingChris]

Trump was praising Hydroxychloroquine and nobody can be crazy buying it except medical doctors because it  (and the more dangerous, chloroquine) are prescription only drugs.  Fauci was wanting long, double blind studies.  There are so many medicines in the US being widely used by doctors for another reason that has never been subject to any study.  I take Trazadone for sleep- never tested.  I originally started taking hydroxychloroquine for Sjogren's - never tested but it was tested for RA and also lupus, I believe.  My kids took clonidine for ADHD- at that point not tested though over twenty years later it has been.  I just read an article last week about how a cancer drug that is injected into the eye is reversing macular degeneration-  also not tested but widely used.  That article cited the quote The perfect is the enemy of the good.  Fauci is wanting the perfect world where we double blind test,  

As to Trump's tweets and retweets-  you may not have noticed it since you are in Australia but he often tweets or retweets threats, etc, but uses them in a psychological way-  his end result is much more moderate.  

[TravelingChris]

1 minute ago, Pawz4me said:

He retweeted. That is an undeniable fact. I mean unless he deleted it (he often does go back and delete controversial things) then it's still there for anyone who wants to look. And even if he did delete it I'm sure there are plenty of screenshots.

As I stated in the above post, he tweets and retweets stuff all the time and his policies and decisions very often differ from those.  Is he angry with Dr. Fauci- probably- is he going to fire him-- probably not.  And if all a newspaper is doing is publishing tweets and retweets of people- that really isn't investigating, is it?

[Ausmumof3]

3 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

As I stated in the above post, he tweets and retweets stuff all the time and his policies and decisions very often differ from those.  Is he angry with Dr. Fauci- probably- is he going to fire him-- probably not.  And if all a newspaper is doing is publishing tweets and retweets of people- that really isn't investigating, is it?

I’ve seen it from a couple of sources now so I suspect it’s going to be a story.  But I’ll be happy to be wrong.

[TravelingChris]

11 minutes ago, Paige said:

It's not a lie if you believe it to be true. It's a mistake. I think there's so much confusing data with covid and everything is so new that it is unsurprising if we are finding out new info daily. At first people thought it wasn't spread person to person, turns out that was wrong. People thought it wasn't airborne, or that asymptomatic people weren't contagious; they were wrong. But that doesn't mean people were lying- they were just wrong. 

As far as potential drugs...we still don't know if they work. The evidence is conflicting. That's all Dr Fauci said. He said some evidence said it worked, and some said it had no effect, and it was too soon to know. I don't think it should be promoted as the first line drug when there's others that have also shown promise. We won't know which is best unless they are all trialed.

I never said that Fauci lied though I have a suspicion that all the meds on top lied about airborne transmission in order to save the masks for the health care workers and thereby not have an even worse tragedy where so many medical personnel die that even more civilians die.  That would have caused a greater death rate so I understand it but also think that it contributed to the death rate in the minority communities where a higher number work 2 jobs, etc, and didn't have the time or energy to be looking up photos of everyone face masked in numerous countries.

[Pawz4me]

1 minute ago, TravelingChris said:

As I stated in the above post, he tweets and retweets stuff all the time and his policies and decisions very often differ from those.  Is he angry with Dr. Fauci- probably- is he going to fire him-- probably not.  And if all a newspaper is doing is publishing tweets and retweets of people- that really isn't investigating, is it?

??? Why do you believe that everything a newspaper publishes has to be investigative in nature? That's a unique POV.

I agree that he's probably not going to fire Fauci. People respect Fauci too much. His knowledge, intellect and popularity (trustworthiness in recent polling) is no doubt very threatening to Trump's ego. But he's wily, and he realizes that firing Fauci wouldn't be helpful to him in November.

[Ausmumof3]

12 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

Trump was praising Hydroxychloroquine and nobody can be crazy buying it except medical doctors because it  (and the more dangerous, chloroquine) are prescription only drugs.  Fauci was wanting long, double blind studies.  There are so many medicines in the US being widely used by doctors for another reason that has never been subject to any study.  I take Trazadone for sleep- never tested.  I originally started taking hydroxychloroquine for Sjogren's - never tested but it was tested for RA and also lupus, I believe.  My kids took clonidine for ADHD- at that point not tested though over twenty years later it has been.  I just read an article last week about how a cancer drug that is injected into the eye is reversing macular degeneration-  also not tested but widely used.  That article cited the quote The perfect is the enemy of the good.  Fauci is wanting the perfect world where we double blind test,  

As to Trump's tweets and retweets-  you may not have noticed it since you are in Australia but he often tweets or retweets threats, etc, but uses them in a psychological way-  his end result is much more moderate.  

https://www.wsj.com/articles/trump-claim-that-malaria-drugs-treat-coronavirus-sparks-warnings-shortages-11584981897?redirect=amp#click=https://t.co/9yJT0PvyCi
 

I think the crazy buying is happening in other countries where presumably it doesn’t need a script.  Note I’m not blaming trump for that or anything - preppers were trying to source it before his comments - I’m just saying it was something that happened.

[Sneezyone]

4 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

I never said that Fauci lied though I have a suspicion that all the meds on top lied about airborne transmission in order to save the masks for the health care workers and thereby not have an even worse tragedy where so many medical personnel die that even more civilians die.  That would have caused a greater death rate so I understand it but also think that it contributed to the death rate in the minority communities where a higher number work 2 jobs, etc, and didn't have the time or energy to be looking up photos of everyone face masked in numerous countries.

 

I agree with you that masking should have been encouraged (of the civilian kind, cloth, whatnot) from the beginning. I do not think that kind of messaging would have been allowed b/c it is inconsistent with the incessant push to get back to normal and/or create the appearance of normal. Masked people raise alarms. Masked people indicate all is not well. Masked people shame the unmasked and make them feel bad. I do not agree, however, that the lack of masking is why marginalized people are dying at higher rates. Systemic inequality is the cause of that. Poor/inadequate leadership is the reason they were exposed in the first place.

[Ausmumof3]

17 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

As I stated in the above post, he tweets and retweets stuff all the time and his policies and decisions very often differ from those.  Is he angry with Dr. Fauci- probably- is he going to fire him-- probably not.  And if all a newspaper is doing is publishing tweets and retweets of people- that really isn't investigating, is it?

It’s probably a bit political but to me if someone whose the elected leader of a country tweets stuff that should represent their actual views.  I realise that hasn’t been the case but it seems kinda crazy.  That he can tweet or say whatever and not really mean it.

im not really left wing or anything I’m all over the shop politically.  A lot of American politics just don’t seem to make much sense from here.

[Sneezyone]

7 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

It’s probably a bit political but to me if someone whose the elected leader of a country tweets stuff that should represent their actual views.  I realise that hasn’t been the case but it seems kinda crazy.  That he can tweet or say whatever and not really mean it.

im not really left wing or anything I’m all over the shop politically.  A lot of American politics just don’t seem to make much sense from here.

 

It doesn't make much sense up close either.

[Pawz4me]

9 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

It’s probably a bit political but to me if someone whose the elected leader of a country tweets stuff that should represent their actual views.  I realise that hasn’t been the case but it seems kinda crazy.  That he can tweet or say whatever and not really mean it.

im not really left wing or anything I’m all over the shop politically.  A lot of American politics just don’t seem to make much sense from here.

I'm trying to avoid being too political, and there's certainly a lot I'd like to say. But to stay rather neutral -- he likes to float trial balloons. So he retweets or hints about something in another way and waits to see how the public responds. He draws back on some of his more outrageous things when the negative reeaction is too much. Now I could opine about the reasons he does that, but  . . . probably too political other than to say it's ultimately about self preservation. Not that that's unusual for any politician. But the trial balloons are often very good insight into what he'd really like to do, whether he follows through or not.

[Ausmumof3]

1 minute ago, Pawz4me said:

I'm trying to avoid being too political, and there's certainly a lot I'd like to say. But to stay rather neutral -- he likes to float trial balloons. So he retweets or hints about something in another way and waits to see how the public responds. He draws back on some of his more outrageous things when the negative reeaction is too much. Now I could opine about the reasons he does that, but  . . . probably too political other than to say it's ultimately about self preservation. Not that that's unusual for any politician. But the trial balloons are often very good insight into what he'd really like to do, whether he follows through or not.

Yeah that makes sense.  

[SKL]

1 hour ago, TravelingChris said:

Number one=-  Washington Post has been a highly unreliable newspaper for reporting on inside administration details,  They have reported on firings of people that have not happened so many times, reported so-called inside scoops that turned out to be the exact opposite of a policy,  reported misleading reports of policy that are so misleading that people panic but the policy is a slight tweak that should have no one panicking at all (something like Trump is cutting all funding for blank when in reality, his proposed budget is calling for a slightly smaller increase in budget like instead of a 10% raise in budget for a coming year a 9.5% increase), etc, etc.  

Number two=== Fauci was one of the people who could have saved lives and isn't doing it.  He kept spouting the lies that it wasn't airborne until last week or end of the week before.  He also kept discouraging the hydroxychloroquine/zinc/Z-pack combo, although it is saving lives.  

I had also heard F. has conflicts of interest that had people calling for his removal last week if not earlier.

[Arcadia]

58 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Yeah that makes sense.  

FYI Singapore govt does “test balloons”, similar concept. Plenty caught for breaking social distancing rules too despite fines. 
Data for cases is cut at noon but information is out sometimes pass midnight. The later the daily press release the higher the case numbers according to the local public who are tracking press releases (quite obvious trend though).

ETA:

Trend holds true 😛

“BREAKING: Singapore reports 386 new COVID-19 cases in its highest daily increase yet, and its 9th death from the disease.” https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/singapore/covid19-coronavirus-singapore-new-cases-clusters-moh-12636840

Edited April 13, 2020 by Arcadia

[TCB]

52 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

I'm trying to avoid being too political, and there's certainly a lot I'd like to say. But to stay rather neutral -- he likes to float trial balloons. So he retweets or hints about something in another way and waits to see how the public responds. He draws back on some of his more outrageous things when the negative reeaction is too much. Now I could opine about the reasons he does that, but  . . . probably too political other than to say it's ultimately about self preservation. Not that that's unusual for any politician. But the trial balloons are often very good insight into what he'd really like to do, whether he follows through or not.

I am starting to think it's more like some kind of negotiating tactic. I think he uses tactics that he feels have proved useful to him his whole life, and they probably have. I personally like things to be much more straight forward and direct, but I'm sure I probably wouldn't survive in politics because of that. 

[Paige]

1 hour ago, TravelingChris said:

I never said that Fauci lied...

You said he repeated a lie...

I feel it is a little harsh to call it a lie when most experts were probably doing their best with the limited knowledge they have. Whether it’s Fauci or the people he quoted- chances are they were just wrong rather than malicious. If he knew it was airborne and said it wasn’t, or had been told or seen reliable reports that it was airborne and continued to downplay the risk, however, it would have been lying and dangerous. 
 

My problem with hydroxycholoroquine isn’t that there are no studies but that there are conflicting studies and anecdotes and there are other potential drugs. If you are going to believe the anecdotal evidence it works, you have to also consider the cases where it hasn’t worked and the anecdotal evidence for other drugs. 

Putting all our eggs in the hydroxychloroquine basket seems foolish. I’d like to see them say that there are many potential treatments being investigated and have the FDA allow many or all of them to be used (obvi not all on the same patient) including hydroxychloroquine. I don’t want to throw it out but I don’t want to depend on it either. There’s some aids antiviral that’s shown promise along with others I don’t recall because their names blend together in my mind. I think people would be more hopeful if all of these promising treatments were discussed during the press conferences instead of just one.
 

 

[Corraleno]

1 hour ago, TravelingChris said:

Trump was praising Hydroxychloroquine and nobody can be crazy buying it except medical doctors because it  (and the more dangerous, chloroquine) are prescription only drugs. 

 

"Four more state pharmacy boards have followed Ohio's lead and taken steps to block pharmacists from excessively dispensing two drugs touted as possible COVID-19 treatments, as both drugs are already in shortage.  Utah, Idaho, Texas and Nevada have all moved to block unnecessary prescriptions of chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine, both designed to treat malaria but commonly used to treat autoimmune diseases such as lupus and rheumatoid arthritis. Physicians were found to be writing prescriptions for themselves and their families to stockpile the drugs, and both are already in shortage. Texas also limited prescriptions of the antibiotic azithromycin and another malaria drug, mefloquine, according to the Times.  It seems like people are trying to start hoarding these medications just like they've been hoarding toilet paper and water," Allison Benz, executive director of the Texas State Board of Pharmacy, told KXAN, an NBC affiliate in Austin, Texas." Article here

"Ohio doctors are obtaining so many prescriptions of a possible coronavirus treatment for themselves, their families, their colleagues and their friends that it’s wiping out the supply for everybody else — including people with lupus who will become more susceptible to the virus without their usual medication." Article here

“People are losing their minds about this product,” said Brian Brito, president of SMP Pharmacy Solutions in Miami. “We’re selling so much of this stuff and people are just stockpiling it prophylactically if anybody in their family gets sick — they’re just holding on to it. Brito said his pharmacy had about 800 tablets on Monday and were nearly sold out in about an hour. One doctor called and asked for 200 tablets, but the company refused. “He was a little upset about it but he understood and he went quickly from 200 to 42 tablets, which is essentially treating two people,” Brito said. “So yeah, they’re stockpiling it.”  Article here

[mumto2]

I don’t consider that the US has put all it’s eggs in the hydroxichloriquine (sp) basket by any means.  It’s promising, it’s somewhat known, it has other purposes.......I am sure it can be donated somewhere for malaria treatment.  I thought ramping production of it up was smart.  Why wait....now could save lives. One life saved is not a waste.  Is it right to stockpile it individually at this point, no............a side comment.......I do wish we had bought our travel pack of it the pharmacist offered when we picked up our Tamiflu last summer in the U.K. before traveling to the US tor Uni.  We skipped it because we were going to the US......it was common enough to be over the counter almost in the U.K.......you call a help line and get a prescription for travel meds then talk to the pharmacist who directs you to what you need.
 

Supposedly the U.K. is starting production of the untested Oxford vaccine........simply so it will be ready to use if it works.  Good common lifesaving sense......

[Corraleno]

1 hour ago, SKL said:

I had also heard F. has conflicts of interest that had people calling for his removal last week if not earlier.

Care to provide any links? All I can find are conspiracy theories that Fauci is in some kind of pact with Gates (who wants to implant us all with microchips via vaccine), and Fauci is discouraging chloroquine in order to help Gates get his scary vaccines approved as early as possible.

[TCB]

35 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

 

"Four more state pharmacy boards have followed Ohio's lead and taken steps to block pharmacists from excessively dispensing two drugs touted as possible COVID-19 treatments, as both drugs are already in shortage.  Utah, Idaho, Texas and Nevada have all moved to block unnecessary prescriptions of chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine, both designed to treat malaria but commonly used to treat autoimmune diseases such as lupus and rheumatoid arthritis. Physicians were found to be writing prescriptions for themselves and their families to stockpile the drugs, and both are already in shortage. Texas also limited prescriptions of the antibiotic azithromycin and another malaria drug, mefloquine, according to the Times.  It seems like people are trying to start hoarding these medications just like they've been hoarding toilet paper and water," Allison Benz, executive director of the Texas State Board of Pharmacy, told KXAN, an NBC affiliate in Austin, Texas." Article here

"Ohio doctors are obtaining so many prescriptions of a possible coronavirus treatment for themselves, their families, their colleagues and their friends that it’s wiping out the supply for everybody else — including people with lupus who will become more susceptible to the virus without their usual medication." Article here

“People are losing their minds about this product,” said Brian Brito, president of SMP Pharmacy Solutions in Miami. “We’re selling so much of this stuff and people are just stockpiling it prophylactically if anybody in their family gets sick — they’re just holding on to it. Brito said his pharmacy had about 800 tablets on Monday and were nearly sold out in about an hour. One doctor called and asked for 200 tablets, but the company refused. “He was a little upset about it but he understood and he went quickly from 200 to 42 tablets, which is essentially treating two people,” Brito said. “So yeah, they’re stockpiling it.”  Article here

This is something to not be proud of with my fellow healthcare people. I can understand why they may want to do this, but it is something that we have to fight against our natural desires and let our better selves come through. Stockpiling for people that aren't even sick yet or may not get sick when people that already are won't be able to get the medication is not a nice thing at all. I guess I should also say, easier for me to say when I don't have the ability to write prescriptions anyway, but it really isn't a nice thing no matter what.

[livetoread]

54 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

Ish. He actually responded to it in a way that undermined the original tweet and called it fake news. The original tweet was a congresswoman saying that.  For accuracy.

I don’t understand your argument here. Maybe you could elaborate? The original tweet (by a candidate for congress who lost in a primary in Pelosi’s district) was angry at Fauci for saying that more lives would have been saved if social distancing had happened. Trump seemed to agree with her tweet, saying he had done the China ban early and called it fake news. Are you saying he was calling the candidate’s comment fake news? Because I read it to say that Fauci’s comment was fake news and he was agreeing with the candidate.

Editing to add, I don’t want to argue the point, just want to make sure I understand your point. We can interpret his tweets differently!

Edited April 13, 2020 by livetoread

[Pen]

Could someone pull up the thread I started that though it says “no politics”  in title would be a better place for politics than this thread?

The last couple of pages seem to be remarkably civil considering the discussion content.   Nonetheless, I fear they may go beyond the WTM no politics board rules and I don’t want moderators to shut down this thread. 

[Arcadia]

Vietnam 🙂

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-vietnam-riceatm/rice-atm-feeds-vietnams-poor-amid-virus-lockdown-idUSKCN21V0GQ

“HO CHI MINH CITY (Reuters) - A Vietnamese entrepreneur in Ho Chi Minh City has invented a 24/7 automatic dispensing machine providing free rice for people out of work following an ongoing nationwide lockdown to curb the spread of the novel coronavirus. 

Vietnam has reported 262 COVID-19 cases, and no deaths so far, but as a result of a 15-day social distancing programme that began on March 31 many small businesses have been shuttered and thousands of people temporarily laid off from work. 

Nguyen Thi Ly’s husband was among those who have lost their job. 

“This rice ATM has been helpful. With this one bag of rice, we can have enough for one day,” said the 34-year-old mother of three children. “Now, we only need other food. Our neighbors sometimes gave us some leftover food, or we have instant noodles.” 

The machine distributes a 1.5kg (3.3lb) bagful of rice from a small silo to waiting workers, many of whom are street sellers or people who earned a living from cash-in-hand jobs like housekeeping or selling lottery tickets. 

Hoang Tuan Anh, the businessman behind the idea, had initially donated a batch of smart doorbells to hospitals in Ho Chi Minh City before turning his technological expertise to food distribution. 

Similar ‘rice ATMs’ have been set up in other big cities like Hanoi, Hue and Danang, according to state media. 

Employees monitoring the rice ATM declined to comment, but Anh told state media he wanted people to feel they still had access to food and resources, despite the current economic difficulties they found themselves in. 

“I refer to this machine as a ‘rice ATM’ because people can withdraw rice from it, assured that there are still good people out there who want to give them a second chance,” he said. 

While many in the Communist-ruled country can rely on a social safety-net, and the government has introduced a stimulus package designed to help society’s most vulnerable, some people living on the margin, like Ly and her family, have not received enough support.”

Edited April 13, 2020 by Arcadia
Removed photo caption

[Carrie12345]

Thrilled to see that NY, NJ, CT, PA, RI, and DE (I think that’s everyone) have joined forces to work on an “opening” plan together, with public health being the priority.  We have so much traffic flow between us, it really needs to be a joint effort. Today, each of the governors sounded like they were in no rush to risk the progress made.