Jump to content

Menu

Recommended Posts

As a constitutionalist & a big proponent of privacy, the actions taken by the federal government and the use of tech data to fight the spread of COVID-19 sadden and worry me. Yet, they offer hope that less people will be infected, sicken, and die.

The governor of my state (Nebraska) just finally announced state-wide directed health measures (his version of a lockdown). He's been phasing them in by region/county from the bigger population centers and harder hit regions for the last two weeks or so while asking the whole state to observe physical distancing & voluntary shutdown of non-essential businesses. In a reminder of what those instructions are, he shared this about the actions of the people of the state over the last two weeks as collected by Google (using phone location data, I assume).

These numbers don't really make sense (24% decrease in hours at work but only a 8% increase in time in your neighborhood?). I guess the park info explains it? The local mayor just closed down all playgrounds & public parks in my tiny rural town, but did leave the walking trails open.

My state has done very limited testing so far. We have a lot of travel through our state but are mostly rural. Our biggest population center is barely a million people, so lots of room to spread out. Our peak will likely be shifted later than other areas.

Quote

There has been a 34% decline in visits to retailers and restaurants, an 18% decline in visits to transit stations, and a 24% decrease in hours spent in the workplace.

Meanwhile, there has been an 8% increase in hours spent in residential areas.  This indicates that people are spending more time at home.

There has been a 109% increase in visits to parks.

Edited by RootAnn
Wonky quote format ...
  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 16.7k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

  • Ausmumof3

    3226

  • Pen

    2458

  • Arcadia

    1337

  • prairiewindmomma

    305

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

DS got home 3 hours ago!  ❤️❤️

Update-  my youngest is not only short of breath, coughing, dizzy, nausaues, and with headache-  she is also confused.  I called our doctor and talked with him and she is going to be going to the ER.

That's not a blanket right.  If my religion required human sacrifice, I can't practice it.  If my religion required sexual assault, I can't practice it. Freedom of religion isn't a blanket right

Posted Images

27 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

When that is the message, however, and then citizens are being castigated for being confused on the severity or significance of the threat, that’s where I take issue.  

Except that wasn't the point of the article you linked.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, regentrude said:

As I wrote in another post just now:

my sister is a doctor in a major university hospital in Germany (so no small rural hospital). All she has had for weeks now to wear into the OR is one simple cloth mask she has to take home every night after her shift, and wash and boil or steam iron to sterilize it, so she can wear this mask again the next day. 
A cloth mask that is soaked after a couple of hours  (which is normally a complete no-no), but she has to wear all day.

They do not have enough paper towels in the scrub room for doctors and nurses to dry their hands.

 

All around bad.   Tragic. 

My sister and bil are surgeons in USA (big city hospital, but not teaching center) and don’t have adequate equipment either . 

However, they have so far been a little luckier that almost everything they normally do has been shut down completely. (Not so good for the patients.)  And my sister’s area of expertise tends not to be needed if everyone is staying home and not needing trauma repairs.  So they are mostly at home with their little kids, and hoping the children don’t end up orphans.  

 

  • Sad 5
Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, square_25 said:

That would be interesting. Probably largely automated, I would guess? I don't know a ton about this. This would probably make things more expensive, yes? 

Maybe as “expensive” as when I was a kid in the 70s/80s before my country of origin let a lot more foreign workers into factories to lower cost of production. While reducing labor cost is one factor, the countries holding the raw materials are still at an advantage manufacturing wise.
My neighbors who were my parent’s age went from getting a low wage at manufacturing plants to a much lower wage at fast foods, and the retail price didn’t go down with lower cost, company profits went up. 

  • Like 8
Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Pen said:

All around bad.   Tragic. 

My sister and bil are surgeons in USA (big city hospital, but not teaching center) and don’t have adequate equipment either . 

However, they have so far been a little luckier that almost everything they normally do has been shut down completely. (Not so good for the patients.)  And my sister’s area of expertise tends not to be needed if everyone is staying home and not needing trauma repairs.  So they are mostly at home with their little kids, and hoping the children don’t end up orphans.  

My sister is an anethesiologist, so she is needed for any kind of surgery and would be needed in the ICU when they have to put patients on ventilators. She has been lucky so far because she can still perform "normal" surgeries (while all elective surgeries are canceled, cancer or appendixes don't care about the stay at home order)  and it's not yet all-hands-on-deck in the ICU.

Edited by regentrude
  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, square_25 said:

It's not an about face. It's called "learning about the problem," which is a big part of science. You can't overreact to every single virus coming out of China, or our country would be at a permanent standstill. You learn more information, you cope, you adjust. The problem with the US response was that it didn't act on information known in any kind of reasonable way. We had all of February to prepare. 

Here's an interview from back in January: 

https://www.voanews.com/episode/china-coronavirus-outbreak-4172351

He literally says "Right now, the risk is low, but it could change if we get human to human transmission, so we have to take it very seriously." He also says it could turn into a pandemic. 

 

I think If we had ordered a stop to all overseas shipments in February when we appeared to have almost no cases while other countries were already having trouble, that too would have been strongly criticized no doubt.  Instead of an analogy to theft of TP it would have been analogized to hoarding unneeded TP. 

 

  • Like 9
  • Sad 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

Remember the caterwauling about closing down travel?  Yeah.

 

And also if DPA had been invoked before people saw USA cases in 100,000 range and started clamoring for it, I think that would have created huge fears of government tyranny, a belief that something most Americans still seemed to regard as a mild unimportant flu like illness, was being used as an excuse for wrongful government action.

I expect in my blue state area there would have been many protest marches at close quarters causing even worse early viral spread. 

 

  • Like 6
Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, square_25 said:

OK, maybe early March would have been fine for that. Obviously there are trade-offs here. 

But I think getting an idea of how big the stockpile is and starting to ramp up PPE production (which, at that point, may have simply involved giving big contracts to companies voluntarily) is a no-brainer. 

 

Sure.  Lots of things might have been much better if only ___ had been done ___.   (Probably.  Though actually we don’t know for certain ever what would have happened if some different choices had been made at past moments.) 

What did you think in early March? Still were going on play dates or similar right? 

Whatever happened in early March that cannone changed now. 

We are now at this moment.  But you (and all the pundits and all of us) now have the luxury of 20-20 hindsight.   And it is way easier even now to argue about the past than to make a good decision for this moment. Especially a good decision in bad circumstances. 

 

Btw, I know it is largely rhetorical, but since rhetoric can start to be believed by one’s own mind, I don’t believe your  7year old can actually organize this situation better than the powers that be are managing, extremely flawed job of it that they are doing, notwithstanding.   That’s an emotional feeling you have, but not even for the most brilliant well organized 7 year old would that be real. 

  • Like 4
  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, square_25 said:

OK, but I do tend to talk about what needs to be done moving forward. Some of the things I'm mentioning were things I was talking about before they happened. 

Specifically, I want them to invoke the DPA to mass-produce PPE like now.

 

They are. 

 

  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

https://www.battelle.org/newsroom/news-details/battelle-deploys-decontamination-system-for-reusing-n95-masks
 

I know that Batelle’s sterilization machine was referred to before. It is now being assembled in my state (and a couple of others) for immediate use.  

  • Like 12
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, square_25 said:

That would be interesting. Probably largely automated, I would guess? I don't know a ton about this. This would probably make things more expensive, yes? 

“In 2011, after the H1N1 pandemic ended, we had to lay off 150 people,” he recalls. “One hundred fifty people that saved a lot of hospitals from closing their doors were rewarded by losing their jobs. And that's not going to happen again.”

Full article (there was another similar one I couldn't find that said that the masks were about 5x more expensive to make in the US than in China.)

ETA: It also talks about them ramping up production, although the other more recent article I couldn't find talks about it more.

https://www.wired.com/story/surreal-frenzy-inside-us-biggest-mask-maker/

Edited by ElizabethB
  • Like 1
  • Sad 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Except this may be more akin to the situation where there’s only one oxygen mask and you’re deciding who gets it.  Not a good place to be globally.  

There is nothing about where we are globally that could be called a “good place”.   There will be ruffled feathers and I think think is a good example of why closer attention should be paid to where important items are being produced.  I hope that lesson won’t be forgotten once the crisis has passed.  I don’t know all the details of the shipment to Germany, but it may be that they were not that company’s to sell to that buyer when the deal was made.  Things to be thankful for...that I am not the one negotiating all these deals.  I can barely keep my house clean without making people mad.

  • Like 8
  • Sad 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Spain has just passed Italy in number of cumulative cases according to worldometer. 

Spain's death toll is currently about 3,600 less than Italy's.

  • Confused 1
  • Sad 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

For anyone interested, in accordance with our governor's directives to expand our healthcare workforce, the California Board of Registered Nursing has agreed to temporarily decrease our direct patient care requirements from 75% to 50%, so we can use simulations/mannequins and move forward with our programs (and get others graduated). Hopefully, we will hear something from our state nursing director this week and get moving again on the clinical portion of our courses soon. Most other states have already moved to do similarly (California being a hold out).

As I mentioned a few days ago, our governor also created the California Health Corps to recruit health professionals (including nursing students) to assist with the surge of patients. I nervously filled out the application and am waiting to be contacted to see what, if anything, I am able to do. Depending on where they are in school, nursing students will be able to work as either nursing assistants, LPNs, or as RNs on an emergency basis (without having to first pass the licensing exam). Many of the folks in my cohort also filled out apps, but we are not sure where they will place us because we did our skills check off for the RN required level of skills, but didn't yet complete our clinical hours for that level, so who knows. Now, I just need to get off my sorry butt and pass my didactic classes. So, no more procrastinating!! 🙂 

Edited by SeaConquest
  • Like 13
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Mom2mthj said:

But wouldn’t the droplets from coughs and sneezes land on your hands which people promptly put to their face?  I think there is a difference between hands and general surfaces/packages sitting on a truck for hours being the main means of transmission.  Also, we are learning more about this new virus all the time so I don’t think the previous advice was wrong, but we have have learned more so they are adding recommendations rather than changing.

I had assumed the advice was linked to touching stuff then touching your face.  Here in Aus there’s been advice about pushing elevator buttons with your knuckle etc.  

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

I see a huge difference between saying, "We will no longer export this product," (after fulfilling already placed orders) and seizing shipments on the way to a place.  I also do not understand telling states to bid against each other and the federal government bidding against them.  I don't understand why the federal government needs PPE or ventilators if it's not for the people in states (or territories or DC).  Who is it for then???  I'm quite sure that square's 7 year old could organize this better than it is being organized.  

Also, it's important to note that the US seized this order after not even not only not invoking the Defense Production Act but not even PLACING ORDERS.  

Edited by Terabith
  • Like 6
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Except this may be more akin to the situation where there’s only one oxygen mask and you’re deciding who gets it.  Not a good place to be globally.  

 

Alas. Yes. I agree. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, Mom2mthj said:

There is nothing about where we are globally that could be called a “good place”.   There will be ruffled feathers and I think think is a good example of why closer attention should be paid to where important items are being produced.  I hope that lesson won’t be forgotten once the crisis has passed.  I don’t know all the details of the shipment to Germany, but it may be that they were not that company’s to sell to that buyer when the deal was made.  Things to be thankful for...that I am not the one negotiating all these deals.  I can barely keep my house clean without making people mad.

No kidding.  Our pm is not my favourite person but I feel kind of sorry for him right now.  

  • Like 2
  • Sad 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, Terabith said:

I see a huge difference between saying, "We will no longer export this product," (after fulfilling already placed orders) and seizing shipments on the way to a place.  I also do not understand telling states to bid against each other and the federal government bidding against them.  I don't understand why the federal government needs PPE or ventilators if it's not for the people in states (or territories or DC).  Who is it for then???  I'm quite sure that square's 7 year old could organize this better than it is being organized.  

Also, it's important to note that the US seized this order after not even not only not invoking the Defense Production Act but not even PLACING ORDERS.  

I also see a difference between not allowing products that were manufactured in the US to leave the country, versus seizing shipments that were manufactured in China and legally sold to a 3rd country.  France is also claiming that US buyers stole a desperately needed shipment bound for France by paying three times the price, in cash, while the plane sat on the tarmac in Shanghai. That's just slimy. We are basically stealing orders from countries that planned better than we did, in order to cover up just how disorganized and screwed up the US response has been. 🤬

Edited by Corraleno
  • Like 2
  • Sad 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, regentrude said:

I only saw the radio report, not a scientific study. He did not give details.
They started this week conducting a detailed study in the town that is one of the epicenters, but results are not yet available.

 

Maybe scientific study will come out so that we can read it. 

Culturing the virus might also have issues if the human cells I presume are being used for the culture medium are more or less susceptible to being infected by the virus.  And the in vitro culture may not be same as what happens if someone breathes the virus on into real lungs. 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

I also see a difference between not allowing products that were manufactured in the US to leave the country, versus seizing shipments that were manufactured in China and legally sold to a 3rd country.  France is also claiming that US buyers stole a desperately needed shipment bound for France by paying three times the price, in cash, while the plane sat on the tarmac in Shanghai. That's just slimy. We are basically stealing orders from countries that planned better than we did, in order to cover up just how disorganized and screwed up the US response has been. 🤬

 

I am pretty sure I have seen reverse asserted also — maybe in Forbes? Or USA Today ? Can’t recall.  That foreign entities outbid US entities trying to get supplies. 

 

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, square_25 said:

But the DPA was only invoked for ventilators.  I don't know the status on those, but I'd be interested if you know.

The news from 5 days ago from here said that NZ was trying to purchase 200 ventilators and had to be 'wily' to get them because the USA was attempting to buy 100,000 which was the entire annual world-wide production.  

When the government spokesman said 'wily' that got us thinking.  Perhaps it is not about have the money to purchase, perhaps now it is about having something the other wants in *trade*. So NZ will sell you N95 masks if you sell us ventilators.  My guess is that this will become more and more common.  Something in trade in addition to the $$.  Unfortunately, not all countries have something to trade that is in huge demand in a pandemic. 

Edited by lewelma
  • Like 2
  • Sad 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

I am pretty sure I have seen reverse asserted also — maybe in Forbes? Or USA Today ? Can’t recall.  That foreign entities outbid US entities trying to get supplies. 

 

Outbidding another country on a contract for a future order is one thing, stealing an order that had already been contracted and was in the process of fulfillment is another.

  • Like 4
  • Sad 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

If you follow the FEMA FB page you can see where some of the stockpile is going. 


Tuesday

We are currently coordinating flights from Asia to deliver medical equipment and supplies for COVID-19 relief as part of Project AirBridge.

On Sunday, 130,000 N95s masks, 1.8 million face masks and gowns, 10.3M gloves and thousands of thermometers arrived at JFK Airport.

Yesterday, over 15 million gloves arrived to Chicago, IL to distribute to counties with critical medical needs. 

More flights are planned to arrive daily. All supplies will be provided first to medical distributors in areas of greatest need, then into the broader U.S. supply chain. Prioritization will be given to hospitals, health care facilities, and nursing homes around the country.

Learn more: fema.gov/coronavirus

Tuesday

We deployed Incident Management Assistance team members to support the Navajo Nation, the largest land-based tribal nation currently experiencing the highest number of COVID-19 cases.

The Arizona National Guard set up 50 hospital beds in a Chinle medical facility. They also sent medical professionals to Tuba City to continue to assess the medical needs of the community.

Public assistance is available to tribal governments and can be requested by notifying FEMA regional offices. To learn more about the process, visit: https://www.fema.gov/news-release/2020/03/26/coronavirus-covid-19-fema-assistance-tribal-governments

Wednesday 

This week, FEMA continues to support states and territories across the nation in taking active measures to fight #COVID19:

🔹 The Liacouras Center in Philadelphia was transformed into a medical care site with supplies provided by FEMA, U.S. Department of Health and Human Services and CDC. 

🔹 Soldiers from the 627th Army Hospital based in Fort Carson, Colorado are setting up the CenturyLink Field Event Center to treat patients without COVID-19 & help Puget Sound area hospitals.

🔹 Hawaii received a shipment of personal protective equipment yesterday, which is being sorted and distributed to help care for patients locally and in the Northern Mariana Islands (CNMI), Guam, and American Samoa.

🔹 Stacks of supplies were also delivered to a warehouse in Carson City, Nevada. We worked with the state to distribute PPE to nearby areas.

Thursday 

International flights bringing critical medical supplies continue daily as part of Project Air Bridge. 

The cargo on these flights is first sent by medical distributors to priority counties identified by FEMA and U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. The remainder is infused into the broader U.S. supply chain. 

Flights are added daily to bring medical resources to our healthcare facilities across the nation. Recently, flights landed in:

🔹 Miami, FL with 43,000lbs of surgical gowns

🔹 Los Angeles, California with 13 million gloves

🔹 Chicago, Illinois with 17.8 million gloves

🔹 Columbus, Ohio with 12.5 million gloves

Learn more about the response efforts at: fema.gov/coronavirus

 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

I also see a difference between not allowing products that were manufactured in the US to leave the country, versus seizing shipments that were manufactured in China and legally sold to a 3rd country.  France is also claiming that US buyers stole a desperately needed shipment bound for France by paying three times the price, in cash, while the plane sat on the tarmac in Shanghai. That's just slimy. We are basically stealing orders from countries that planned better than we did, in order to cover up just how disorganized and screwed up the US response has been. 🤬

But was the company that did the manufacturing US owned?  I’m not arguing with you just trying to understand the implications of this kind of action.  Our power network is majority owned by a Hong Kong based company.  I’m going to post what’s a ridiculous scenario; If there was somehow a sudden shortage of power poles around the world could they technically come and dig the power pole up from outside my house and take it to Hong Kong?  Or would they be illegal?

a more realistic example is a lot of massive farms in Aus are being bought by foreign investors.  When older farming families want to sell out there’s rarely enough money locally to outbid foreign investors.  In the (scarily possibile) scenario that there is a global food shortage does Australia have any say as to whether that food produced on Australian soil by a foreign owned country actually leaves its shore or not?

  • Like 3
  • Sad 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Ausmumof3 said:

But was the company that did the manufacturing US owned?  I’m not arguing with you just trying to understand the implications of this kind of action.  Our power network is majority owned by a Hong Kong based company.  I’m going to post what’s a ridiculous scenario; If there was somehow a sudden shortage of power poles around the world could they technically come and dig the power pole up from outside my house and take it to Hong Kong?  Or would they be illegal?

a more realistic example is a lot of massive farms in Aus are being bought by foreign investors.  When older farming families want to sell out there’s rarely enough money locally to outbid foreign investors.  In the (scarily possibile) scenario that there is a global food shortage does Australia have any say as to whether that food produced on Australian soil by a foreign owned country actually leaves its shore or not?

The masks were manufactured in China by a US-owned company (3M). And I agree with you that the precedent this sets would be very concerning for the future, if products — including food — produced by foreign-owned businesses could be seized by those foreign governments if they chose. More than 30 million acres of US farmland are owned by foreign companies and investors. Smithfield Foods, the largest pork producer in the world, is Chinese owned. If the US can seize masks manufactured in China and sold to Europe, then what's to stop the Chinese from seizing food and other goods produced in the US if there's a shortage of those things? 

  • Like 3
  • Sad 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

But was the company that did the manufacturing US owned?...If there was somehow a sudden shortage of power poles around the world could they technically come and dig the power pole up from outside my house and take it to Hong Kong?  

As for international companies and power over national supplies, we have sad news here in NZ.

Bauer, a German company, owns all of our national news magazines (we have 4 - The Listnener, North and South, Woman's Day, and Next).  They chose to close up shop and stop all production last week.  They would not take a government subsidy, and they tried to sell them to the government for 1$ but apparently they had massive debt and a huge retirement debt. The government did not feel it should be the owner of the news, so didn't take on the debt and take them over. People here are very sad.  These are not just *some* magazines, they are *all* of our magazines. Bauer was clearly already in a poor position going into the pandemic, but advertising has dried up due to Covid19 and they don't expect it will ever recover to pre Covid19 levels.  So they have just shut down our cultural heritage. Would this be the same if it was a NZ company?  I just don't think so.  

  • Like 1
  • Sad 9
Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

But was the company that did the manufacturing US owned?

 

Not sure.  I think it has mostly been an issue with 3M which is a US based corporation. But I don’t know details for shipments in question.

certainly not “US owned “ in literal sense of a government owned company. Not like a communist country might literally own everything 

6 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

 I’m not arguing with you just trying to understand the implications of this kind of action.  Our power network is majority owned by a Hong Kong based company.  I’m going to post what’s a ridiculous scenario; If there was somehow a sudden shortage of power poles around the world could they technically come and dig the power pole up from outside my house and take it to Hong Kong?  Or would they be illegal?

a more realistic example is a lot of massive farms in Aus are being bought by foreign investors.  When older farming families want to sell out there’s rarely enough money locally to outbid foreign investors.  In the (scarily possibile) scenario that there is a global food shortage does Australia have any say as to whether that food produced on Australian soil by a foreign owned country actually leaves its shore or not?

 

Yes. Potentially that would probably be legal if it is their power pole.

It is quite frightening. We also have much land on west coast of US bought up by Chinese entities, and similar in other parts of US with other countries predominant.   There’s a big question about US versus China (etc) rights to it.   Some countries have significant limits on purchase of land etc by foreign governments, businesses and nationals.  I guess Australia and USA don’t so much. 

Possibly eminent domain laws would allow a certain amount of control.

 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
  • Sad 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, lewelma said:

As for international companies and power over national supplies, we have sad news here in NZ.

Bauer, a German company, owns all of our national news magazines (we have 4 - The Listnener, North and South, Woman's Day, and Next).  They chose to close up shop and stop all production last week.  They would not take a government subsidy, and they tried to sell them to the government for 1$ but apparently they had massive debt and a huge retirement debt. The government did not feel it should be the owner of the news, so didn't take on the debt and take them over. People here are very sad.  These are not just *some* magazines, they are *all* of our magazines. Bauer was clearly already in a poor position going into the pandemic, but advertising has dried up due to Covid19 and they don't expect it will ever recover to pre Covid19 levels.  So they have just shut down our cultural heritage. Would this be the same if it was a NZ company?  I just don't think so.  

All our little local newspapers just closed as well.  Now I’m curious to check who owned them.

edited to add looks like they were owned by News Corp Australia. (Subsidiary arm of news Corp)

I am glad we have the ABC as a bit of a counterbalance to the for profit news though I wouldn’t want to see all news gov owned.

Edited by Ausmumof3
Link to post
Share on other sites

@Ausmumof3@Pen 

Don’t know where Holland America are going to house these passengers in Atlanta and San Francisco. Coral Princess is another mess.

https://www.businessinsider.com/holland-america-florida-ships-zaandam-rotterdam-flight-details-2020-4

“In its approved plan, Holland America included information on what will be done for any guests "whose home countries will not accept inbound citizens."

"These guests will be flown on the Atlanta or San Francisco charter flights on Friday," the document said.”

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article241768491.html

“Two people have died aboard the Coral Princess, which docked in Port Miami Saturday morning and began to unload people shortly after. 

Miami-Dade Mayor Carlos Gimenez said two people were taken from the ship to Larkin Community Hospital. Two others are being sent to Tampa for treatment. During an online press conference, Gimenez offered condolences to family members of two passengers who died aboard the Princess. “It’s heart-breaking news,” he said.”

  • Sad 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

@TCB@Pen@mathnerd  explains about the prone position being used in hospitals in the last two paragraphs 

https://www.nbcbayarea.com/investigations/hospitals-running-short-of-key-ventilator-drug/2267317/?_osource=SocialFlowFB_BAYBrand

““It’s another shortage of concern,” said UCSF pulmonologist John Balmes, about the two scarce paralytic drugs, cisatracurium and rocuronium. Both help those patients with acute respiratory distress syndrome, ARDS, efficiently use the flow of oxygen while ventilators are keeping them alive. 

Jennifer Esteen, a San Francisco General psychiatric nurse and union organizer, confirms the shortages at SF General, where a dozen patients are in the intensive care unit and nine are currently on ventilators.

“They are not in an emergency today, but given the rate of admissions,” Esteen says, “and need for ventilators increasing,  they are expecting to have an increase of these drugs that go with people being on ventilators.”

University of Utah adjunct professor Erin Fox, who tracks drug shortages nationwide, says that rocuronium was short even before the COVID-19 outbreak. Also running short, she says, are sedatives used during the intubation process to put patients on ventilators –  with the three most used being midazolam, propofol and fentanyl.  

“All those medicines, we need more than we have ever needed before … we need a huge surge of these,” she says. “So just like people are talking about we need more masks, we need more ventilators -- you actually can’t make a ventilator work for a patient unless you have the sedatives and the paralytic agents that you need.” 

Dr. Balmes said the paralytic drugs serve to immobilize skeletal muscles so patients with ARDS need less oxygen to survive, given the syndrome deprives them of oxygen as fluid fills their lungs. 

“It makes it harder to treat severe COVID-19 ARDS” without the drugs, he said. “It’s already hard enough because these patients are very sick.”

Balmes said the only option doctors may be left with is placing patients prone on their stomach, which helps to restrict their natural breathing while they are sedated. 

But that process is labor intensive, requires specially designed beds, and is difficult to perform when hospitals are trying to care for so many patients at once, authorities say. Several patients at SF General have been treated by being placed in the prone position.”

  • Like 3
  • Sad 4
Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

@Ausmumof3@Pen 

Don’t know where Holland America are going to house these passengers in Atlanta and San Francisco. Coral Princess is another mess.

https://www.businessinsider.com/holland-america-florida-ships-zaandam-rotterdam-flight-details-2020-4

“In its approved plan, Holland America included information on what will be done for any guests "whose home countries will not accept inbound citizens."

"These guests will be flown on the Atlanta or San Francisco charter flights on Friday," the document said.”

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article241768491.html

“Two people have died aboard the Coral Princess, which docked in Port Miami Saturday morning and began to unload people shortly after. 

Miami-Dade Mayor Carlos Gimenez said two people were taken from the ship to Larkin Community Hospital. Two others are being sent to Tampa for treatment. During an online press conference, Gimenez offered condolences to family members of two passengers who died aboard the Princess. “It’s heart-breaking news,” he said.”

Nsw police were running their biggest ever peace time operation today to restock and refuel cruise ships so they can leave.   They called it operation nemesis.  Which seemed... appropriate.

  • Like 1
  • Haha 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

@TCB@Pen@mathnerd  explains about the prone position being used in hospitals in the last two paragraphs 

https://www.nbcbayarea.com/investigations/hospitals-running-short-of-key-ventilator-drug/2267317/?_osource=SocialFlowFB_BAYBrand

““It’s another shortage of concern,” said UCSF pulmonologist John Balmes, about the two scarce paralytic drugs, cisatracurium and rocuronium. Both help those patients with acute respiratory distress syndrome, ARDS, efficiently use the flow of oxygen while ventilators are keeping them alive. 

Jennifer Esteen, a San Francisco General psychiatric nurse and union organizer, confirms the shortages at SF General, where a dozen patients are in the intensive care unit and nine are currently on ventilators.

“They are not in an emergency today, but given the rate of admissions,” Esteen says, “and need for ventilators increasing,  they are expecting to have an increase of these drugs that go with people being on ventilators.”

University of Utah adjunct professor Erin Fox, who tracks drug shortages nationwide, says that rocuronium was short even before the COVID-19 outbreak. Also running short, she says, are sedatives used during the intubation process to put patients on ventilators –  with the three most used being midazolam, propofol and fentanyl.  

“All those medicines, we need more than we have ever needed before … we need a huge surge of these,” she says. “So just like people are talking about we need more masks, we need more ventilators -- you actually can’t make a ventilator work for a patient unless you have the sedatives and the paralytic agents that you need.” 

Dr. Balmes said the paralytic drugs serve to immobilize skeletal muscles so patients with ARDS need less oxygen to survive, given the syndrome deprives them of oxygen as fluid fills their lungs. 

“It makes it harder to treat severe COVID-19 ARDS” without the drugs, he said. “It’s already hard enough because these patients are very sick.”

Balmes said the only option doctors may be left with is placing patients prone on their stomach, which helps to restrict their natural breathing while they are sedated. 

But that process is labor intensive, requires specially designed beds, and is difficult to perform when hospitals are trying to care for so many patients at once, authorities say. Several patients at SF General have been treated by being placed in the prone position.”

 

What has happened to opiates or opioids seized as “illegal drug trade” drugs I wonder.  

Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

@TCB@Pen@mathnerd  explains about the prone position being used in hospitals in the last two paragraphs 

https://www.nbcbayarea.com/investigations/hospitals-running-short-of-key-ventilator-drug/2267317/?_osource=SocialFlowFB_BAYBrand

““It’s another shortage of concern,” said UCSF pulmonologist John Balmes, about the two scarce paralytic drugs, cisatracurium and rocuronium. Both help those patients with acute respiratory distress syndrome, ARDS, efficiently use the flow of oxygen while ventilators are keeping them alive. 

Jennifer Esteen, a San Francisco General psychiatric nurse and union organizer, confirms the shortages at SF General, where a dozen patients are in the intensive care unit and nine are currently on ventilators.

“They are not in an emergency today, but given the rate of admissions,” Esteen says, “and need for ventilators increasing,  they are expecting to have an increase of these drugs that go with people being on ventilators.”

University of Utah adjunct professor Erin Fox, who tracks drug shortages nationwide, says that rocuronium was short even before the COVID-19 outbreak. Also running short, she says, are sedatives used during the intubation process to put patients on ventilators –  with the three most used being midazolam, propofol and fentanyl.  

“All those medicines, we need more than we have ever needed before … we need a huge surge of these,” she says. “So just like people are talking about we need more masks, we need more ventilators -- you actually can’t make a ventilator work for a patient unless you have the sedatives and the paralytic agents that you need.” 

Dr. Balmes said the paralytic drugs serve to immobilize skeletal muscles so patients with ARDS need less oxygen to survive, given the syndrome deprives them of oxygen as fluid fills their lungs. 

“It makes it harder to treat severe COVID-19 ARDS” without the drugs, he said. “It’s already hard enough because these patients are very sick.”

Balmes said the only option doctors may be left with is placing patients prone on their stomach, which helps to restrict their natural breathing while they are sedated. 

But that process is labor intensive, requires specially designed beds, and is difficult to perform when hospitals are trying to care for so many patients at once, authorities say. Several patients at SF General have been treated by being placed in the prone position.”

This plus vent shortage (eta plus the PPE required to intubate, the danger to HCW during intubation), plus the struggle to get intubated patients off the ventilator is why many are looking at how to avoid intubation completely through high oxygen nasal cannula, non-invasive ventilation helmets, positive airway pressure units, and anything else they can figure out to avoid it. 

You have a 50/50 chance to get off of a ventilator once put on. (see MedCram #49) 

Edited by Plum
  • Sad 5
Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

@Ausmumof3@Pen 

Don’t know where Holland America are going to house these passengers in Atlanta and San Francisco. Coral Princess is another mess.

https://www.businessinsider.com/holland-america-florida-ships-zaandam-rotterdam-flight-details-2020-4

“In its approved plan, Holland America included information on what will be done for any guests "whose home countries will not accept inbound citizens."

"These guests will be flown on the Atlanta or San Francisco charter flights on Friday," the document said.”

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article241768491.html

“Two people have died aboard the Coral Princess, which docked in Port Miami Saturday morning and began to unload people shortly after. 

Miami-Dade Mayor Carlos Gimenez said two people were taken from the ship to Larkin Community Hospital. Two others are being sent to Tampa for treatment. During an online press conference, Gimenez offered condolences to family members of two passengers who died aboard the Princess. “It’s heart-breaking news,” he said.”

 

Sounds like they are trying to fly them to wherever “home” is via charter flights , so maybe  they are to be housed in whatever home they normally would reside in?  Unless Country that’s home has a quarantine facility ready? 

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Arctic Mama said:

Square, 

That’s what I said.  The change happened but the lag in understanding of the severity, especially within the public, was very understandable.  The messages being sent among the task force and advisory counsel drastically changed in tone too.  There has been much criticism about the response, but the fact is the ever changing data and adjustments to it are to be expected instead of criticized. 
 

The retrospective is good for data moving forward, but it’s easy to criticize with the benefit of hindsight and not really productive to assessments moving forward.  Again, the problem is not what was done, and when, so much as whether the feds and states corrected course when the situation changed and they understood it better.  I’d say many states and our feds have actually done well with course correction, even if it wasn’t as fast as many would have liked to see.  
 

They are being responsive the input and data and expert review, trying to fix holes when found, and cam the nation while letting people know the seriousness at the same time.  That is an almost impossible situation and one where not everyone will be happy no matter what is decided upon, especially with the baked in hatred with this administration that sometimes clouds fairness.

Baked in hatred? Anyone following tweets and statements from our leader who is not appalled, embarrassed, aghast, and worried is a huge puzzlement to me. Speaking of Germany, again, a model of excellence and wonderful contrast. I’m guessing Merkel doesn’t have an unqualified SIL leading much of Germany’s response.

  • Like 10
  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Pen said:

 

Sounds like they are trying to fly them to wherever “home” is via charter flights , so maybe  they are to be housed in whatever home they normally would reside in?  Unless Country that’s home has a quarantine facility ready? 

I read it as those countries has closed inbound flights so these passengers would have to be “quarantined” in Atlanta and San Francisco. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Arctic Mama said:

You don’t seem a ramping up? Multiple companies have converted facilities or are in process and at least three companies are being leaned on to switch over production with threat of the defense production act. Which, is better than forcing them into it, from a liberty standpoint. 
 

There is still a lag, but it’s being worked on.  I’d like to hear better numbers of he current shortage compared to need, though.

We’re still barely testing in my state, despite being one of the earliest states with a confirmed case. Of the seven people from five families I know who likely had it, none could get tested. 

  • Sad 5
Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

I read it as those countries has closed inbound flights so these passengers would have to be “quarantined” in Atlanta and San Francisco. 

 

Mhmm.  IDK? 

I thought it sounded like charter flights were arranged for passengers to be repatriated back to UK, Australia, or other cities in US, etc.  But it might be the way you thought.

Dont most countries still allow their own citizens to return home?

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Frances said:

We’re still barely testing in my state, despite being one of the earliest states with a confirmed case. Of the seven people from five families I know who likely had it, none could get tested. 

How awful.  😞 We are currently at a capacity of 6000 tests/day, and only 3000 are being used. Now that we have excess capacity, they are planning a randomized testing regime to evaluate community spread. 

  • Like 9
Link to post
Share on other sites

Has this been posted?  Google tracking of movement by country, and by state within USA. It does not show good compliance with lockdown requirements in the US in any state. Compare the stats to any country with a strict lockdown.

Square, what needs to be focused on *right now* is compliance with clear and strict lockdown rules. 

https://www.google.com/covid19/mobility/

  • Like 7
  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, Pen said:

Mhmm.  IDK? 

I thought it sounded like charter flights were arranged for passengers to be repatriated back to UK, Australia, or other cities in US, etc.  But it might be the way you thought.

Dont most countries still allow their own citizens to return home?

 

I am not sure about "most countries" allowing their own citizens to return home. Colombia, during this crisis, will only allow Colombian citizens who are residents of Colombia, or, aliens like me, who are  permanent residents and actually live here, to enter Colombia.

However...   The airports in  Colombia are closed to International flights and I believe that approximately 90% of Domestic flights have been cancelled.

And then, if one can enter Colombia, assuming they are not coming from a country that is prohibited, due to high incidence of Covid-19, they would need to do a Quarantine or "Shelter in Place" for approximately 14 days.  

I believe that many countries have imposed laws similar to those here in Colombia. My wife told me a few days ago that she read or heard that Colombia is ranked #3 in the steps they have taken to reduce the number of Covid-19 cases/deaths and my belief is that is quite possibly true.

The "humanitarian" flights that the U.S. Embassy has arranged for stranded tourists, in the emails about them, they indicate that one cannot buy Food or Water (bottled) in El Dorado airport in Bogota.  I think it is almost desterted except for those occasional flights, or charter flights. I believe the Cargo flights are arriving and departing normally.

  • Like 1
  • Sad 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Pen said:

 

Sounds like they are trying to fly them to wherever “home” is via charter flights , so maybe  they are to be housed in whatever home they normally would reside in?  Unless Country that’s home has a quarantine facility ready? 

No, there is a list of the other flights they are putting international passengers on, which will be going to Canada, France, Germany, and the UK. The part Arcadia quoted applies to passengers whose home countries will not accept them — those passengers are being put on the flights with US passengers to SF and Atlanta, but there is no information in the report about what will happen to them after that. 

 In its approved plan, Holland America included information on what will be done for any guests whose home countries will not accept inbound citizens. These guests will be flown on the Atlanta or San Francisco charter flights on Friday, the document said.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
51 minutes ago, Pen said:

I thought it sounded like charter flights were arranged for passengers to be repatriated back to UK, Australia, or other cities in US, etc.  But it might be the way you thought.

Dont most countries still allow their own citizens to return home?

Yes, most citizens are allowed in, but there is no way to get to there. In NZ 100,000 tourists were stranded here because when the lockdown was announced, it gave only 48 hours notice before NO internal travel would be allowed.  Although you could illegally drive to Auckland to catch an international flight (if you could get one during that time), if you were in the South Island, you had 48 hours to get a ferry or airplane before they were stopped. 

Seven days into the lockdown, the government has finally allowed tourists to take internal flights IF you could show that they were flying home out of Auckland. And Air NZ was chartering special internal flights just for this purpose.  In addition, there is a real problem for tourists from Europe getting home.  There are simply NO transit lounges that are open, and the flight is too long to do in one hop.  So NZ, Germany, and the UK  have worked with the Doha airport to allow transit to get these people home. Sounds like they are going to try to get the job done in the next 2 weeks through charter flights.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, this is disappointing if it holds true...

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/27/opinion/coronavirus-trump-testing-shortages.html

In three to four weeks, there will be a major shortage of chemical reagents for coronavirus testing, the result of limited production capacity, compounded by the collapse of global supply chains when the epidemic closed down manufacturing in China for weeks.

 

... any public health response that counts on widespread testing in the United States is doomed to fail. No one planned on the whole world experiencing a health conflagration of this magnitude at once, with the need to test many millions of people at the same time. Political leaders and talking heads should stop proffering the widespread-testing option; it simply won’t be available.

 

  • Sad 12
Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...