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5 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

But the problem even with that is that it’s a snapshot of one day (Or period of testing). I keep hearing about people who have tested negative but who have still had it and have subsequently died (without going back out into the community). So maybe some get false negatives?  And because we’re still in an active pandemic, unless you can put people in a bubble (because even with social distancing there is some spread) it just seems like no numbers are going to be definitive until the very end because this isn’t a controlled situation. 
 

Speaking of controls, does anyone know if all the tests being used around the world are the same in what and how they test and in accuracy and in sensitivity (so some might detect it earlier)?  

Yes I agree.  Tested today doesn’t mean clear in two weeks.  And no the tests aren’t the same.  One caution I’ve seen mentioned about South Korea’s testing numbers is a lot of false positives.  And part of the driver behind China not counting asymptomatic cases was false positives as well I think.

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1 minute ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

 

Is that not true everywhere?  I think this disease is going to hit lower income people the hardest in many ways, because their jobs are more likely to essential like grocery store clerks, and also more likely to be at risk. because they're less able to stockpile, and have fewer economic savings to get them through, etc . . . It's a horrible situation for everyone, but clearly some groups will be hit harder than others.  

Or am I missing something, and grocery stories in NZ or AUS are closed, or being staffed by well to do people?  

Yes it’s true here.  Woolworths are looking at installing screens over all the checkout workers.

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3 minutes ago, lewelma said:

I am starting to think that only upper and middle class people in America are going into lockdown. There are a ton of poorly paid workers serving all the people in isolation.  DH was just talking to his mom on the phone, and she said that in Ohio she can still order home delivery from restaurants and stuff from Amazon.  So you have chefs, delivery people, amazon warehouse people, and grocery store check out staff still working and serving the people who have the means to stay at home and avoid exposure.  I feel really yucky about this.

 

Me too. And grocery store, warehouse and delivery people don't have masks or gloves unless they're providing their own. I read an article by a UPS worker who said in the warehouse where he works, only one sink was working in the restroom, and there was a 50/50 chance you'd find soap. 

It also really bothers me how stimulus checks in the US are going to people who don't need them. Rather than sending checks to most Americans, funds should be targeted to people who have lost income.

How is it working in NZ in terms of grocery stores and delivery services?

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1 hour ago, DoraBora said:

From a Forbes article about current situation in NY:  (Savoring small blessings is good for the weary soul.)

Surprising fact: Though the rate of infection in New York is still doubling, it is doing so at a slower pace, Cuomo said again on Saturday. The number of ICU admissions fell slightly, as did the number of new hospitalizations. ICU admissions were down to 172 yesterday—the lowest level since earlier this week and down from 374 a day before. Patients who have been newly hospitalized also decreased to 847, down from over 1,000 during the two days previously. “I wouldn’t put too much stock in any one number—the overall trend is still up, but you could argue that the trend is slowing,” Cuomo said of the data.

 

Also though there have been reports of people dying in before they could get seen or get a bed, so I guess that helps decrease new hospitalization numbers. 

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I go back and forth on continuing to get groceries delivered because I do feel rotten about it. In the end, I feel we're all safer the less people there are going so I'm still having them delivered. I am tipping way more than usual though and only choosing delivery early in the morning so hopefully less people and stores have just been cleaned.

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4 minutes ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

 

Is that not true everywhere?  I think this disease is going to hit lower income people the hardest in many ways, because their jobs are more likely to essential like grocery store clerks, and also more likely to be at risk. 

 

I remember seeing photos from Wuhan of delivery workers in full protective gear. Employers here should be providing protection for public-facing employees like grocery and delivery workers. Of course, that brings us to the question of shortages of PPE, and why we weren't preparing as a nation back in January.

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35 minutes ago, square_25 said:

So... I have a question. Does anyone have any theories about WHY New York wound up as such a hot spot? 2 weeks ago, we weren't first in deaths or cases or anything in the US. I know this is a dense place, but some place (like South Korea) are also dense. We weren't particularly late to shut schools, compared to numbers of cases and deaths. So what gives? 

South Koreans were fearful from the Diamond Princess horror. Asia has gone through enough respiratory epidemics to freak out internally. People are buying and wearing masks. Hospitals were getting ready after the first supercluster from the church cult happened. 

New York airport is a major transit hub. 3M and Honeywell should have ramp up production of PPE when masks were sold out at the end of January because there is demand. Same for ventilators and test kits. You (general) have people evacuated from Diamond Princess to US. That was the time to ramp up preparations.

What help South Korea, Hong Kong and Taiwan is that preparing for epidemic won’t cause mass hysteria. There was panic buying of essentials but their government would not be blamed for estimating for worst case scenario.  They would be blamed for underestimating.

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Workers in “essential services” span broad income ranges from minimum hourly wage to much higher salaries. 
Feb 20, 2020 · Data based off of GlassDoor and Indeed.com shows that the average OTR UPS driver earns $27.83 an hour, while the average FedEx truck driver earns $22.83 an hour. The total compensation for a FedEx driver is $47,492 a year, while UPS pays their drivers significantly more at $57,866 a year on average.
The average Cashier - Grocery Store salary in California is $34,733 as of January 20, 2020, but the range typically falls between $30,205 and $38,273.
 

Cashier - Grocery Store Salary in California | Salary.com

 

 

Doctors, of course are generally higher earning, though many not nearly so high earning as lots of people think.  

 

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I've been ordering almost everything online -- including groceries -- for several years now, so that part doesn't seem different for me. I am tipping much more than usual because I do feel that the drivers deserve hazard pay and because it is taking longer in stores than normal (although our Costco order today was really quick, and this was on a Saturday -- and our shopper actually scored both paper towels and disinfecting wipes!!). But, we do have the driver leave everything outside, so we have no contact. I don't know; I am morally torn. I am an asthmatic, so I don't want to risk it, but I have a single mom friend who is a gig worker and does these deliveries. I gave her an N95 mask, some hand sanitizer, and some gloves to help her be safer, but even with the expanded unemployment, she wouldn't be able to afford life in San Diego if she quit. Our COL is just too high here.  But, now with the schools closed, she is having to drag her kid around on deliveries. Normally, we would watch him for her, but we can't right now. I wish I could do more to help her. 😞  

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9 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

Also though there have been reports of people dying in before they could get seen or get a bed, so I guess that helps decrease new hospitalization numbers. 

Yes, there have been reports.  I kind of wonder why Gov Cuomo hasn't touched on that -- or at least I haven't been able to find a comment on it. 

He tweeted just a couple of hours ago that New York hospitals will not force any woman to give birth alone.  "Not now.  Not ever." 

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18 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Yes it’s true here.  Woolworths are looking at installing screens over all the checkout workers.

 

17 minutes ago, Acadie said:

 

Me too. And grocery store, warehouse and delivery people don't have masks or gloves unless they're providing their own.

 
Went to Costco this morning to get fish and pork. The staff were provided with gloves and there were screens at checkout counters to protect the cashiers. 

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1 minute ago, Arcadia said:

 

 
Went to Costco this morning to get fish and pork. The staff were provided with gloves and there were screens at checkout counters to protect the cashiers. 

Our Safeway grocery store has screens at checkout counters to protect the cashiers.  Some have masks and gloves and some don't.  I don't know if that is by choice or not.  (ie. I don't know if the masks and gloves are provided by the grocery store if they bring them from home.)

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38 minutes ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

ETA:  I wonder what @Tap is hearing.  Isn't she a pharmacist?  What are they predicting as far as medication shortages?

One thing I haven’t heard anyone mention is the supply status of  drugs required to sedate and paralyze patients while they are intubated and on ventilators. Those will be in short supply soon if not already. 

2 hours ago, Pen said:

 

10 Point Plan

Governor Cuomo announced the "New York State on PAUSE" executive order, a 10-point policy to assure uniform safety for everyone.

The 10-point NYS on PAUSE plan is as follows: 

  1. Effective at 8PM on Sunday, March 22, all non-essential businesses statewide will be closed;
  2. Non-essential gatherings of individuals of any size for any reason (e.g. parties, celebrations or other social events) are canceled or postponed at this time;
  3. Any concentration of individuals outside their home must be limited to workers providing essential services and social distancing should be practiced;
  4. When in public individuals must practice social distancing of at least six feet from others;
  5. Businesses and entities that provide other essential services must implement rules that help facilitate social distancing of at least six feet;
  6. Individuals should limit outdoor recreational activities to non-contact and avoid activities where they come in close contact with other people;
  7. Individuals should limit use of public transportation to when absolutely necessary and should limit potential exposure by spacing out at least six feet from other riders;
  8. Sick individuals should not leave their home unless to receive medical care and only after a telehealth visit to determine if leaving the home is in the best interest of their health;
  9. Young people should also practice social distancing and avoid contact with vulnerable populations; and
  10. Use precautionary sanitizer practices such as using isopropyl alcohol wipes

I’m a bit shocked some these weren’t already in place. NV has had most of these beginning March 17. 

1 hour ago, Arcadia said:

@CuriousMomof3@Jean in Newcastle@Pawz4me

https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/health/demand-for-lupus-drug-also-used-to-treat-covid-19-skyrockets/2263445/
“When President Donald Trump announced the medication hydroxychloroquine was a game-changer in treating COVID-19 patients, demand for the prescription drug skyrocketed.

Now a San Diego, California woman who uses the medication to treat her lupus can’t get her prescription refilled.

When Micaela Jimenez came to the pharmacy at the Kaiser Permanente in Rancho Bernardo, her prescription was denied. She’s worried about when and if she’ll get the medication that keeps her lupus from flaring up.

Since her diagnosis about seven years ago, Jimenez has relied on hydroxychloroquine to keep her healthy.

“It prevents me from having flares, it can do awful things depending on what that flare wants to do at any point. It can attack any organ,” Jimenez explained.

Her prescription is so essential, doctors kept her on the medication when she was pregnant with her now 6-month-old son.

NBC 7 found out some Kaiser Permanente patients received a letter saying the medication was being saved for critically-ill COVID-19 patients.

Jimenez did not get the letter, but she did try to contact her doctor and hasn’t heard back.

 “It’s literally just waiting for that house of cards to fall,” she said.

NBC 7 reached out to Kaiser Permanente and received this statement about hydroxychloroquine prescriptions not being filled:

“These drugs were identified as having a potential beneficial impact in the treatment of some severely sick COVID-19 patients who are hospitalized, which has caused demand to rise dramatically. Supplies from drug manufacturers have not caught up.”

The statement goes on to say Kaiser is working to continue filling current prescriptions. But, until supplies can be increased only 14-day refills will be given.”

 

My gov restricted it’s use so it can’t be covid related to preserve supply. 

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7 minutes ago, square_25 said:

Yeah, I think you're right. I wonder if people were waiting for a more coordinated federal response? They probably shouldn't have been. 

I think healthcare is more fragmented in the US. My county reacted before the state as it’s a hotspot. Still my county has to deal with quite a few providers e.g. Kaiser Permanente, Sutter Health, Stanford Healthcare. They have to put out an order before private labs submit the testing results to them. That to me is weird because in an epidemic, private practice would usually submit data to the regional govt coordinating body. 

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1 hour ago, square_25 said:

So... I have a question. Does anyone have any theories about WHY New York wound up as such a hot spot? 2 weeks ago, we weren't first in deaths or cases or anything in the US. I know this is a dense place, but some place (like South Korea) are also dense. We weren't particularly late to shut schools, compared to numbers of cases and deaths. So what gives? 

I don't know.  I wonder how on earth Italy become one.  Dr. Fauci theorizes it was because of the very large number of Chinese tourists, who seeded the virus in multiple spots in that country. 

I think the epicenter in SK was Daegu, which is quite a bit smaller than NYC.  Your city has large airports, people coming in from all over the world, tons of wonderful (and crowded) sights to see.   

It's so hard to predict how things will play out.  Even as recently as ten days ago(!), Gov Cuomo didn't think NY would get to a state-wide shelter in place order. 

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13 minutes ago, square_25 said:

I was wondering this yesterday. Link? 

From the Wall Street Journal:

WASHINGTON— President Trump ordered General Motors Co. to sharply ramp up the production of ventilators to treat coronavirus patients, turning to a wartime presidential power that he had been reluctant to use.

Mr. Trump on Friday invoked the Defense Production Act, or DPA, which dates back to the Korean War and gives the president powers to require businesses to produce goods tied to national defense. For weeks he had said that the threat of invoking the DPA was sufficient. Previously he likened using the DPA to nationalizing American business. He reversed course Friday, saying GM was “wasting time” in negotiations with the federal government.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/trump-lashes-out-at-general-motors-over-ventilators-11585327749

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I think NYC has become so bad for a variety of reasons:

-There's a lot of international travel and some of the busies international airports. It's not just about tourists coming in but the travel of New Yorkers themselves.

-Dense housing/high population

- High public transit usage

- possibly some super spreaders

-delay in school and other closings

 

 

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15 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Our Safeway grocery store has screens at checkout counters to protect the cashiers.  Some have masks and gloves and some don't.  I don't know if that is by choice or not.  (ie. I don't know if the masks and gloves are provided by the grocery store if they bring them from home.)

Our Safeway has the screens, too.  They also have large stickers on the floor to remind people to stay six feet apart.  (The reminders only work if people are paying attention, though.  There was a woman behind me this morning who was talking on her phone and getting rather too close to me, backing into other customers, etc.  She only had two items.  I had to ask her several times to please go ahead of me (because she was busy with her phone call).  I would normally do that anyway, to be kind, but I'll confess that I really just wanted her GONE.

I need to be patient.  😐

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Quote

I’m a bit shocked some these weren’t already in place. NV has had most of these beginning March 17. 

 

Those delaying days may be one part of why NY is having such a bad problem early.  You are lucky your Governor took action earlier IMO. 

 

 

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The raw ingredient for hydroxychloroquine is mostly made in India, which has stopped its export. Teva (Israel) is sending extra to the us right now, but it is name brand Plaquenil. Hydroxychloroquine generic 30 day supply is normally under $20. Same in non-generic is $550-600 (verifiable on good rx, fwiw). Make of that what you will.

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6 hours ago, Arcadia said:

“Thousands of employees for grocery delivery service Instacart are planning to strike Monday, arguing that they deserve hazard pay and personal protective equipment such as masks and gloves during the coronavirus pandemic.
http://nbcbay.com/PPOCBHQ”

Are they employees or independent contractors?  I thought they work when they want? 

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10 minutes ago, matrips said:

Are they employees or independent contractors?  I thought they work when they want? 

The in-store shopper is an employee.

https://shoppers.instacart.com

Full-Service Shopper

Shop and deliver orders

  • Independent contractor
  • Access to a car required
  • Choose hours that work for you
  • Shop and deliver orders
View More Details

In-Store Shopper

Shop orders within a store

  • Part-Time Employee
  • No vehicle required
  • Flexible schedule
  • Shopping only
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22 minutes ago, matrips said:

Are they employees or independent contractors?  I thought they work when they want? 

 

Complicated question, actually. They were all independent contractors until recently. CA passed a controversial law called AB5, which was intended to give more protections to gig workers by making them employees. Under the new law, Instacart would likely have to classify them as employees, but I still don't know that they are. https://www.bizjournals.com/sanfrancisco/news/2020/02/25/instacart-loses-key-court-fight-in-ab-5-gig-worker.html

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1 hour ago, square_25 said:

Yeah, I think you're right. I wonder if people were waiting for a more coordinated federal response? They probably shouldn't have been. 

Or waiting for WHO to think it serious enough to declare a pandemic.  They didn’t do that until March 11.

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Just now, Terabith said:

How is lockdown going?  How is your son and his quarantine?

His self isolation is over TODAY!  But of course now the entire country is in self-isolation. Haha.

So here in NZ, we can only shop at our local grocery store and pharmacy, and we can go for walks in our local area.  We are not allowed to drive except to the local grocery store and pharmacy.  There is NO carry out food of any sort available, there is also no online shopping of any sort except groceries because all transport is for essential services only. So we are hunkering down in a 600sq foot apartment with three rooms with 2 teens and 2 parents working from home and heading into winter.  Good thing we like each other! 

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Just now, HeighHo said:

That's a bit of propaganda.  The middle class is mostly at work in essential industries at the worksite, with re-arranged work rules and hours, or they are working out of the home as much as possible or because they are on fourteen day isolation due to symptoms or travel. 

The folks delivering Meals on Wheels and the JCC Senior/shut in meals are also middle class retirees. 

My neighbor owns his restaurant.  He is happy to provide takeout and he's rearranged the kitchen and staffing to keep as many employed as he can while observing the distancing and sanitation. Folks are ordering because they trust that his employees won't be at work sick and will continue to observe social distancing at home....and it does reduce their odds..they would encounter many more people at the grocery store than are handling the food at the restaurant.

I'm glad to hear that.  Here in NZ, we have fewer low end people working because there is no online shopping (except groceries although even that has been cut by some stores) and there are no restaurants operating. Without these 2 industries, there are no chefs, wait-staff, Amazon store workers, or delivery people out and about.  All people staying home because of job cuts are getting about $500/week in wage subsidy. People who are working from home do not.  It is just interesting to see how the two governments are doing things differently. 

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1 hour ago, Acadie said:

How is it working in NZ in terms of grocery stores and delivery services?

No delivery services.  Even online grocery shopping in drying up because they can't find people willing to do the job.  They stay home and stay safe and get a wage subsidy.

The clerks at the grocery stores now are required to have a very high plexiglass shield between them and the customers.  Any cash purchases must be a self check out as clerks are not allowed to touch  money.  All the stock boys have gloves and welder's helmets that completely cover their faces.  Only 100 people are allowed in a typical grocery store at any one time and only 1 person per family can shop. 

Pharmacies are only allowing 1 person in the store at a time and the clerk at our store had a proper mask.

The buses are running on a reduced schedule for essential workers and for those who can't otherwise get to their grocery store. The bus drivers I have seen have masks. 

We have no online services and we have no restaurants in operation right now. 

We have no domestic flights or intercity travel allowed. No driving is allowed unless it is to your local store. 

I have actually just found out that NZ is a producer of masks!

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There is some indication that NZ can actually *eradicate* the virus in the next 6 weeks.  But at that point I am not clear what we do. The world gets herd immunity (and lots of people die) and we do what?  Stay in our bubble and wait for a vaccine that may or may not happen? Keep the borders shut for how long?  Or let the population get it very very slowly -- like over 3 years so we don't overwhelm the system?  And if so, how do we manage that?  In and out of self-isolation as we allow some people to get it over time?  I'm just not clear on the longer term plan. 

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7 minutes ago, square_25 said:

Also, I'm jealous of your competent leadership. 

People are starting to worry about Jacinda. Since coming into office, she has had to deal with

1) having a baby

2) The Christchurch mass shootings

3) A volcanic eruption

4) A pandemic

That is a lot to handle in 2.5 years.  She is looking kind of haggard. 

 

Edited by lewelma
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37 minutes ago, Happymomof1 said:

Everyone is talking about NYC, but Detroit is really suffering right now.  I'm part of another board and a nurse there has been talking about how awful it is and how they are out of ventilators.

https://www.bridgemi.com/michigan-health-watch/detroit-hospital-warns-some-coronavirus-patients-may-not-get-ventilators

That’s because Cuomo wanted them ALL. 🙄

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