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Effective counseling for resistant teen


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 The thing is too, you do always want to minimize attention to unwanted behavior, and maximize attention to desired behavior.  The 3 baskets is automatically going to decrease attention to everything in basket 3, and that is just -- a principle that is supposed to be good to follow.  

I think it seems a little like -- your time is so taken up with negative interactions that are necessary, there is no time or energy left for positive interactions.  I totally get that.  I have felt like that before, too.  My husband has an easier time but I address things he doesn't, and he doesn't have to address some things because I am addressing them.  So it is easier for him to only address big things once in a while, and the rest of the time just be a pretty fun dad.  

There are also times where there are things that I overlook to have things go better, but in practice this means there are times I pick up after people who should be picking up after themselves.   Which -- I can't do TOO much without becoming resentful.  But I can do it on days I think there is more stress around, without always doing it.  

It is hard sometimes to do things for kids without them taking it for granted, though, and expecting it to be done for them.  But I think I do best when most of the time I expect it, and once in a while I do it for them, and it is to be nice, not because I am a door mat.  

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For some things though my mindset needs to be "I'm doing an intervention here, people," and not "oh, I am just letting this go and letting that go, sigh, I hate this, this is not how I want things to be going."  

It is also potentially humiliating or sending a poor message to siblings to ignore some Basket 3 things, but -- I think it can be worth it anyway.  I think it is a balance and I think that can be a reason to put things in Basket 2, or a reason to give siblings some extra privilege.  And/or explain to siblings you are really trying to have improvement.  

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Thanks, Lecka -- that is all so helpful. I have the Explosive Child book by Greene somewhere.

All that you have said there makes sense to me, and it's the kind of thing that would be helpful for the counselor to say to me, but he hasn't. He is young. It's hard to tell ages, but he seems to be around 30 to me, so he can't have been in practice for very long at his age. And he's not a parent yet (he is engaged). I have wondered if it would help more to have someone with more experience, but I also value that DS likes him, so I don't want to be quick to change.

There is another name I have of a counselor that we haven't contacted yet. We chose this one, because he is connected to an autism center, and because he is a guy, and DS wanted a male, and the other person whose name was given to us is a woman. But I do have this other person that I could contact and ask some questions.

Having a top three things to work on would be helpful. I think N has ideas of his own, but when he talks to me, the conversation is always, "How did this week go?" which means that we end up talking about random things that happened. This Wednesday, my conversation with N went better, and I think it's because I kind of skirted that question and turned the conversation toward one of my big concerns, instead. Inspired by some things from this thread, I asked if we could look at DS's goals, because there was one of his self-made goals related to getting along with siblings that I would not really have set as a goal, because it didn't reflect a main problem at home (I think DS made up that goal, because he didn't know what else to work on, and that's fine -- it was a starting place). Anyway, I said that since this area was not really a big problem, maybe we could use it to help DS get a "win" quickly and achieve a goal and have a positive thing happen that way.

N agreed, and that seemed to go well with DS in their time together, because N was able to show him the goal and talk about how there has been some improvement. And N and I talked about other things related to increasing the positive interactions that we have with DS. Which was good.

So I think I can be more direct with N about what we want. And I like the idea of a Top 3 list of agreed upon goals. The current goals in DS's plan were set by DS and agreed to by me, but they aren't the things that I would have said are the biggest issues. That's fine -- it's good to work on things that DS is interested in working on. The thing is, that I think that DS just made up some goals without really caring about them, because he was put on the spot to say something. It's still okay to work on those things and for DS to learn that making a goal and working toward it is helpful.

But I think that I can also clarify with N what our family goals are, and that would help. I think that if my goals and DS's goals don't match, that we need to acknowledge that and have a plan to be working on both over time.

N has read all of DS's past evaluations, and we had an intake meeting with him, and so on, but it's hard for anyone to get a picture of what DS is like, just from meeting DS, because DS is so different at home than he is anywhere else. He really has two personas. With non-related adults, he is quiet and withdrawn and is hard to talk to, and he just sits there being calm and quiet, and you would get a sense that he is a hard nut to crack, because he will answer, "no," or "I don't know," to every question.

And so the first step is to establish rapport and get him willing to participate. Which is a goal of it's own that could take a very long time!!! In the meantime, as a parent, I see all of this other problematic stuff. But the counselor will not hear anything about it unless I bring it up, so I am still building a picture for N about what things are like. But a lot of the things I have to say are so negative, because I have to bring up the hard things, or why else bother to go to counseling? And even with all of the problematic things that I bring up, it is only a drop in the bucket of what we have to work on.

So I agree that it would help for DH and me to come up with a Top 3 concerns list.

 

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I think it helps so much to have a shorter list.  It is easier to see progress too, and not always be caught up in "all the problems."  

Right now -- I have no idea if the counselor would say -- he thinks doing the checklist intervention is more important, or listening to him play music.  Does he think one of those will have greater benefit right now?  Are they both at the top of the list?

It is easy to focus more on more concrete things where you can SEE things happening.  Things where it is more "well, we're doing this, hoping for some growth, but it's hoping for some growth to happen over time," is a lot harder sometimes.  

I think it can also be good to consider how progress will be measured, and have at least one thing that will be obvious and be GOOD and be something that parents will like and improve the child's life (which I think teaching a skill or reducing conflict would both improve a child's life, if there's nothing more practical)..... and also have some long-term "we hope this drip-drip-drip works out."  Because the drip-drip is so important and needs to be prioritized, but if that is all there is, then it's hard to stay motivated for it.  Ideally things are contributing both ways, but I think if there is a big thing that seems like it is going to be "drip, drip," it's important to do it but not have that be a place to look for for results.  Because -- it's hard to get results from some things, you just hope they help over time.  And then with other things, it can be easier to see progress and have positive feelings and motivation for everyone, from that.  

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For me -- for some things that are drip-drip-drip, my motivation comes from hearing about a kid where "we went over this concept in different ways over 3 years and then he got it and it really made a difference!"  Well -- that is really motivating but it's also "I hope this works out."  Edit:  Really, it is inspirational.  I benefit a lot from being inspired by what other people are doing.  

I think some important, desirable things are just intrinsically going to be that way.  

But then there needs to be something that is going to go well sooner!  

Edited by Lecka
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I am late to discussion and didn’t read every post— maybe this has been asked and answered already:

For something like breakfast could you either give him a choice as for little kids?

or some compromise like a breakfast smoothie or shake?  Compromising so he gets some good nutrition that you want, but doesn’t have to actually eat as he wants

 

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I found Howard Glasser, Barry Kaufman, Peter Breggin, and “Celebrate Calm” type approaches helpful—as well as Ross Greene who I saw mentioned above.    We may have just had a change due to some maturity at 17, but I think also some different approaches I have been trying have helped.  

I also wonder if maybe you could use some nutrients like B vitamins, inositol, NAC, D3, K2-4, Bacopa, and/or omega 3 fatty acids, etc, to help him so that he could be on fewer/less pharmaceuticals that make him not feel hungry? 

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20 hours ago, Pen said:

I am late to discussion and didn’t read every post— maybe this has been asked and answered already:

For something like breakfast could you either give him a choice as for little kids?

or some compromise like a breakfast smoothie or shake?  Compromising so he gets some good nutrition that you want, but doesn’t have to actually eat as he wants

 

Yes, we've tried things like this. He's been drinking smoothies, but has just decided he doesn't like them any more, so he is rejecting that idea. He's tricky that way. He's had a lot of options and has options every day, but he rejects things, even if he has been agreeable to them previously.

I think my next plan is to teach him how to make scrambled eggs (he is also behind on cooking skills, so this would be beneficial in more than one way), but he doesn't have much time before the bus arrives in the mornings, so eggs would be a two-step plan -- cracking and scrambling them the night before, so they are ready to put in the pan in the morning. There are some ready-to-pour cartons of egg mixture that we could buy, but I'd prefer him to learn the traditional way first. He does like eggs, at least for now.

He will also sometimes eat leftovers, and he likes things like frozen meatballs. We always stock yogurt, and string cheese, and cereals that he likes, and right now he will drink Carnation Instant Breakfast sometimes.

Arguing about what he is willing to eat, even when he has a lot of options that he likes, is an almost daily thing. Sigh. We're working on it.

We are seeing a new person for meds, and getting him to a place where he can eat more is one of the goals. It's a good idea to ask her about supplements and having his vitamin levels checked.

Edited by Storygirl
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Could food Battle be over a night before decision for following day?  

Is there anything that could go to school with him for a snack a bit later?

what about a healthy breakfast cookie with best (healthiest tolerable) sweetener you can find, packed with nuts, maybe made with whole egg or at least whites, maybe raisins or similar, something he’d like perhaps a small amount of chocolate chips?  (That was my own frequent grab and go breakfast part of childhood, mostly eaten on bus or first recess).  Which he could make or help make on weekends ? 

Or a fruit and yogurt parfait waiting in fridge?

my son likes leftovers especially of sausage patty meat or quesadillas as breakfast

We used to make breakfast burritos on weekend and freeze to reheat for week ahead.  Can’t recall what went in.  I think egg, cheese, some sort of meat, but that wasn’t all...

 

 

I think it’s really hard to eat when not hungry, or for some people if feeling anxious the eating feeling shuts down.  And trying to get food down when throat or tummy don’t feel like it can make it feel worse.  

 

Maybe use Cronometer app to log what he eats and he could see for himself what he’s low on?

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Yup, we've considered or tried most of those ideas, except for a breakfast cookie. When we've had him pick things the night before, he rejects his own idea in the morning anyway. He won't eat anything at school, but we always send him with a lunch anyway. He either brings his lunch home uneaten or gives it away to friends. He won't do any nutrition monitoring for himself -- it would just be a new thing for him to argue with us over. It's not a bad idea for him to learn the skill of considering his nutrition, so that when he is an adult on his own, he can do it, but he is resistant to me teaching him just about anything, so it would not solve the battles.

Thanks for the ideas! We have two main problems intersecting in the mornings -- the appetite issues plus the opposition. So it almost doesn't matter what food we have on offer; he will reject it, even if it is something that he likes. We do have a few mornings where he will pick and eat something without arguing, but they are few, and on those days, he always argues about other things anyway.

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I have felt better about my interactions with the counselor, based on some of the suggestions in this thread, over the past two weeks. I think there is still potential for this counselor to work for DS, even though I think that working with someone who has more experience might be more effective. The last couple of talks I've had with the counselor (I talk with him each week) have gone better, because of how I have approached things. Which is okay, as long as we feel we are making some progress, but I wish that I didn't feel that I had to direct things so much and had a counselor who was more adept. This guy is very nice, and his advice has been fine but nothing I haven't heard before, so far. I think that having a rapport with DS is important, though, and there is no guarantee that we would find that with someone else if we try to switch, so we will give it more time.

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1 hour ago, Storygirl said:

Yup, we've considered or tried most of those ideas, except for a breakfast cookie. When we've had him pick things the night before, he rejects his own idea in the morning anyway. He won't eat anything at school, but we always send him with a lunch anyway. He either brings his lunch home uneaten or gives it away to friends. He won't do any nutrition monitoring for himself -- it would just be a new thing for him to argue with us over. It's not a bad idea for him to learn the skill of considering his nutrition, so that when he is an adult on his own, he can do it, but he is resistant to me teaching him just about anything, so it would not solve the battles.

Thanks for the ideas! We have two main problems intersecting in the mornings -- the appetite issues plus the opposition. So it almost doesn't matter what food we offer; he will reject it, even if it is something that he likes. We do have a few mornings where he will pick and eat something without arguing, but they are few, and on those days, he always argues about other things anyway.

 

How about if you ask therapist if he could take over the nutrition/eating problem.  Ask if he could be the teacher and coach on nutrition for your son.  

Have some measurable baselines.  Like weight not to drop below thus and such, some vitamin status blood tests not to fall below thus and such...   Work it out with therapist coach (and doctors). 

And then you back off.  You follow therapist’s lead, for example not requiring breakfast eating and not battling over it anymore.  See what happens.  probably cannot You evaluate therapist entirely anyway unless you are willing to try his ideas 

If your son has an IEP and sped teacher get work on nutrition and proper eating into that also, so that school becomes part of his coaching on that and you can step away from that.

Do try reading or watching videos of some of Howard Glasser etc I mentioned above post.  That group tends to be in agreement with what your son’s therapist has apparently suggested: That you back off from the food battle.    All battles, really.  

And shift to noticing the child especially when he’s calm and engaged in something...   and sometimes magical things happen.  

Maybe Sometimes they don’t.

 But sometimes they do.  

(And short of hospitalization for feeding with a tube or something like that, a Battle over breakfast isn’t something you are likely to win without harming your parent - child relationship. )

In fact, it might be helpful to ask the therapist if he is familiar with and what he thinks about Howard Glasser and the Nurtured Heart approach or what approach he finds best...

 

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Also on something like eating there may be a very viscous cycle where you son not eating causes you to feel anxious and worried, then pushing your son to eat causes him to react with stress.  Stress increases feelings of not being able to get a bite down.  Him not eating increases your own stress.  You catastrophize in your own mind that not eating breakfast will cause him to ... not do well in school... ultimately to be jobless, homeless, under a bridge...    So you up your level of pushing.  His throat squeezes tighter and his tummy knots more.  So you feel even more worry and fear for his future...  maybe he won’t even be able to find a bridge to live under...  

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Yeah, I have a child who has never eaten in the mornings, even as a baby/ toddler.  She ate lunch when homeschooling and when she was at Catholic school, but when she started at the public school, she began refusing.  She isn't on any appetite lowering meds; she's just picky and doesn't like sandwiches or easy to pack foods for lunch and didn't like the food sold at the school.  So she literally wouldn't eat until after school, like 4 pm or so.  It was terrible, but it absolutely was not worth fighting with her about, even though I'm certain it contributed to her depression/ anxiety.   I'm never going to win food battles without serious loss of relationship, and keeping relationship is my number one goal.  But that kind of thing varies on personalities of parents and kids, parenting philosophy, etc.  

For what it's worth, though, my kids were not at all picky until we moved in with my mother in law when they were 2 and almost 4.  I refused to fight with them about food, and while they definitely fasted at times, they ate a very wide variety of foods when they did eat.  We really had no feeding problems, until my mother in law decided every bad mood or toddler act of defiance was because of low blood sugar and started literally force feeding them.  We were living in her house, and while I said I didn't approve, I can't win against my mother in law.  My voracious, "I'd like a big bowl of broccoli for lunch" kids suddenly became picky and what they were willing to eat shrank from "anything except fish and parsnips" to like five foods.  Oldest is slightly less picky than she was at four, but not a lot more.  I'm pretty convinced fighting about food is what caused it.  

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Thanks for your thoughts! I'm probably not going to get to a place where I am comfortable with him only eating between the hours of 5pm and 8pm each day. I'm just not. And if there are no battles over breakfast, the morning battle will just switch to be about something else. So for now DH and I are holding our ground, and we feel comfortable with that decision, though we still look for ways to improve things.  He's been losing weight continuously this year -- even over the last month --  even though we encourage him to eat by providing foods that he likes. He has a few foods that he dislikes, but is overall not a picky eater and will eat what everyone else has at dinnertime, so general pickiness is not his specific problem.

It's okay to me if the counselor and I do not see eye to eye on this one issue, because we have a ton of other things to work on. And I am a parent, and the counselor is not, and some things just are differences in parenting, and that's okay. I just don't want the counselor to undermine our parenting decisions with the things that he says to DS, by, for example, encouraging DS to try to convince us that he doesn't have to eat.

The breakfast thing really was just an example of something the counselor did that I didn't appreciate. I appreciate all of your thoughts. We've really worked through this in a lot of different ways already.

 

Edited by Storygirl
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22 minutes ago, Storygirl said:

Thanks for your thoughts! I'm probably not going to get to a place where I am comfortable with him only eating between the hours of 5pm and 8pm each day. I'm just not. And if there are no battles over breakfast, the morning battle will just switch to be about something else. So for now DH and I are holding our ground, and we feel comfortable with that decision, though we still look for ways to improve things.  He's been losing weight continuously this year -- even over the last month --  even though we encourage him to eat by providing foods that he likes. He has a few foods that he dislikes, but is overall not a picky eater and will eat what everyone else has at dinnertime, so general pickiness is not his specific problem.

It's okay to me if the counselor and I do not see eye to eye on this one issue, because we have a ton of other things to work on. And I am a parent, and the counselor is not, and some things just are differences in parenting, and that's okay. I just don't want the counselor to undermine our parenting decisions with the things that he says to DS, by, for example, encouraging DS to try to convince us that he doesn't have to eat.

The breakfast thing really was just an example of something the counselor did that I didn't appreciate. I appreciate all of your thoughts. We've really worked through this in a lot of different ways already.

 

I would not be comfortable with the not eating and losing weight either, starving brains do not function well--things can get really wacky when a brain is not getting the nutrition it needs 

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Yeah, in your particular issue, where the issue isn’t really about food but about opposition, you might as well have the battle over breakfast.  Our general parenting philosophy is rooted in making very, very few demands.   That’s actually why we sent them to school, was because all the demands we had to make was bad for the relationship.  But my kids are easy going by nature and generally make good decisions, so we have that luxury.  And actually losing weight is a different situation than ours, where she only at after 4 pm but ate a LOT (and sometimes pretty late at night, too), so she wasn’t losing weight. I wouldn’t be okay with not eating when there’s evidence of harm.   If you have to argue, might as well argue about breakfast as anything else.  That’s at least predictable.  

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16 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Have have you tried double dinners? Early (3pm) and regular?

He won't eat much after school. Sometimes he will eat his leftover school lunch, but usually not. By dinnertime (5:30ish), he is hungry but sometimes will only eat part or a small serving of his supper. He eats a second time around 8 or 8:30, and he will finish his supper if needed, plus have something else in addition to that.

So he eats two meals in the evenings, but only within a window between 5:30 and 9:00. After 9, he is getting ready for bed, and before 5ish, he is not hungry yet.

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On 1/22/2020 at 7:55 AM, Storygirl said:

We did some counseling when DS15 was younger, and we are trying again, after it was suggested that it could be helpful by the psych who did his ASD evaluation last summer. I'm not convinced that we are seeing any progress. I'm also feeling that we are still at the beginning -- we started around the beginning of the school year -- and haven't given it enough time yet. On the other hand, if we aren't making progress, perhaps it's a sign that we should consider looking for a different counselor.

I really don't know how to judge this or make this decision.

What DS15 needs is to be able to change some of his thinking and work on managing his emotions. But he doesn't have a desire to change in these ways. How does a counselor make progress when they first have to convince the person that they have things that they should be working on?

We had a concern about counseling being effective when the person is not on board with the process, so we emphasized with the counselor that we thought the first step was for him to work on bonding with DS, so that DS would not mind going there and would be a willing participant. DS does like his counselor and has not complained about going (except for one comment this morning, when I reminded him that we are going after school), and that alone is a big success. But we are at a point now where having DS be willing to go is no longer a sufficient goal.

There are plenty of things to work on, but the counselor has a hard job. First, DS clams up and doesn't talk, so filling an hour of talk therapy time can be a challenge. The counselor asked DS to write about what is going well or poorly each day in a notebook and bring it with him, so that DS could look at his notes and have something to talk about. Which is a basically good idea, except that DS does not do this on his own and hates writing and thinking and talking about anything in this way, so I have to remind him to do it, and he hates doing things that I ask him to do, so we have not managed to do it consistently. I need to come up with a better system for getting the notebook done. Which is fine. It's just that I feel that makes me responsible for DS's efforts, instead of him taking responsibility and owning it. Which I think is needed for counseling to be effective.

So the counselor has me go in to his office for the first 15 or 20 minutes to talk about how things are going, while DS waits in the waiting room, then we switch, and I wait while DS goes in. Because DS doesn't talk, I can see that this is helpful. But it has created a weird dynamic, I think. I'm not sure that what I talk about is related to what DS and the counselor talk about. They do come out together to the waiting room, so that the counselor can do a 30 second wrap up discussion with me before we leave, and usually what he says has nothing to do with what I talked about at the beginning. So there is a kind of disconnect, where I lay out some problems, I think that maybe they will talk about them, but then the thing that DS is supposed to work on is not related to that.

I could say some more specifics, but I'll leave that for a follow up post and try to keep this OP more general.

The other thing is that DS does not take ownership of his own behavior and how it affects others. A very basic root issue, related in big part to his problems with Theory of Mind / perspective taking. So DS does want changes to happen, but he wants DH and me to change. The counselor, I guess (based on a conversation I finally had with him about this), is trying to get DS to work on negotiating and learning how to compromise. So when DS says that we make him do something he doesn't like (like studying), the counselor's response is for DS to talk to us about doing less studying. DS comes out of the session and will say later, "N says that you guys make me study too much, and I should only have to do 10 minutes of this and not 20" or similar. Which is frustrating, because it undermines what we are trying to do at home (DS has LDs and is a poor student, and we have had a lot of academic issues this year, so we are trying to build up more studying stamina, not reduce it).

I brought that issue up with the counselor, and he said he was trying to help with negotiating skills and was not intending to undermine parental authority. There are other things like this that we discussed -- the studying thing is just one topical example, but there have been other times that DS has said, "N says that you shouldn't be supervising me so much on this," etc.

So it turns out (big surprise) that N is actually telling DS things in counseling about ways that DS should be stepping up his efforts to prove to us that he can be more responsible and needs less oversight. DS just ignores the part that requires any effort from him, and he is taking away as the message that we need to change our parenting, but he is not working on changing any of his own behavior.

In the meantime, in my talks with N, I will talk about how hostile DS can be to us verbally (lots of arguing, demanding, telling us we are idiots, etc), and N coaches me (in a mild way; N is extremely mild mannered) on things like "When DS yells, try not to yell back, but lower your voice instead. Which is really hard to do, but can be effective." Fine! This is good advice.

But the overall take-away message so far is that DH and I need to change some parenting (not debating that we can learn new things, but we are not the root source of the problem), but that DS just gets to sit in the counselor's office for awhile each week and then come home and be the same as always without trying to do better.

Because DS really doesn't care to do better.

I suggested to the counselor that I come in at the end of the meeting instead of the beginning, so that after N and DS talk about for the goals for the week or agree on what DS should work on, I can be in the room to know how that discussion went. So that I can follow up on it with DS on at home better. So that DS knows that I know what N said, instead of having to take DS's word on it. And so that if N proposes something to DS that I disagree with or see that there will be problems executing, that I have a chance to contribute to the discussion.

Two weeks ago, I expressed some of this frustration to N. I had written down some notes ahead of time, as I prepared what to say, and N asked to see my notes, so I had the receptionist make a copy for him. N agreed that DS was focusing only on what N was saying that parents should change, instead of areas where DS should be stepping up. He agreed that it might help for us to have a group discussion at the end of the session to help us all be on the same page each week. N was surprised that DS was claiming that N was saying we needed to back off in parenting. He said that he had been trying to get DS to step up in effort, so that DH and I could step back in supervision, and he seemed really surprised that DS would leave off his part of what he was supposed to do when DS would convey to us what he was being told in counseling.

Last week, I had a headache, so DH went instead, and N didn't call DH in at the end, as we had decided the week before. I will see what happens today when I am there. DH came away from his time at the beginning of the session feeling like the things that N suggests to us as parents is too vanilla and generic. I can see why he feels that way, and I have felt the same. However, I also think that what N has suggested to me so far has lined up with what I would expect a counselor would say, so that his advice to us as parents is not wrong. Maybe it is not recognizing the intensity of our situation, though.

DS seems content to go and absorb a message that he should get to be more independent now and that we should back off. He is not learning, so far, anything about how to modify his own behavior.

And he doesn't want to modify his own behavior. We are the ones who want those things to change. So I am just pondering how counseling can be effective for a teen who doesn't want to change.

 

If DS is not willing to work on behaviors, then what is the point of the counseling?

I didn't read the comments, so I apologize for that. Just curious if you've ever read anything by Dr. Ross Greene? His books were pretty world changing for me.

I see it was mentioned. Nevermind! I will add that it doesn't have to involve a LOT of talking. Sometimes just the "lens change" as a parent is enough to make a breakthrough with a kid. 

Edited by popmom
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I think things have been going a bit better. Not that DS15 is himself improving or making changes. Yet (I can still hope). But I decided to just unload some of my concerns to the counselor awhile back (I may have written about that in a post, can't remember now, and I'm not going to sift through and look for it right now), and I feel like the counselor and I are more on the same page now.

He also told me that I don't have to make DS write in his notebook and bring it in. We were still having trouble making that happen, since it depended upon me to make it happen, and DS was resistant.

The truth is, I think, that there are many things that DS is just not going to be able to change, either because he doesn't want to, or because he cannot understand the benefit or need of working on them. I'm working through the idea that counseling might be helpful, even if change does not really occur. I know that I can help me to have someone who knows DS and whom I can talk to. So far I have not received any new or earthshaking advice, but it can be helpful to be reminded of things that I already know, or things that I know but that are not natural for me to DO, even if they may be helpful for me to do.

I've been pondering whether, because of this, it would be helpful to add some family counseling on for DH and me. I think it would be helpful, but there is the matter of the cost and the scheduling. I have two kids in counseling now, and it is already $$$ monthly, and our family schedule with four teens is pretty packed. For now, I think we will stick with what we are doing. I may ask soon if we can switch DS's appointments to every other week. I think there is benefit to still going, but if we could halve the cost, it would not be a bad idea. As long as I am the main one benefiting and DS spends most of his time with the counselor being quiet, I'm thinking that twice a month might be sufficient. We will see.

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