Advice needed

[dodgeat2]

Hello 🙂 I am in my first year of homeschooling. I have four children aged 6, 4, 2, and 12 months. I went to school for K-8 teaching and worked as an Ed. Tech and 5th Grade English Language Arts teacher before having children.

My questions only pertain to my son who turned six in August. We are calling him Kindergarten for our state requirements, but I have been using first grade material. He learned to read with 100 Easy Lessons as a 4 year old and has the vocabulary, oral language, reading fluency and comprehension of a 3rd/4th grade student. He began to use the correct pencil grip and form large letters last summer right around his sixth birthday... He now can print well but does not have much endurance for writing.

I have mostly been using Memoria Press materials with him this school year. I am on this forum because some of these materials have been leading me to questions about how I want to teach him in this stage of his education.

I have been reading The Well Trained Mind. I love these quotes and I am hoping someone can help me make sure I am interpreting them correctly.

In reference to the Grammar Stage: "Let the child delve deep. Let him read, read, read. Don't force him to stop and reflect on it yet. Don't make him decide what he likes and doesn't like about ancient Rome; let him wallow..." (pg. 23)

"Narration removes the need for comprehension questions. Instead of learning to complete fill-in-the-blank questions, the child uses all his mental faculties to understand, remember, and relate the main points of a story". (pg. 59).

Am I interpreting The WTM book correctly in thinking that Susan and Jessie would be against literature guides with many written (or even orally done?) comprehension questions for young students? I hate to use the term "kill joy". If my son can have a discussion with me and I can know through narration or a summary that he knows what happened in the passage, couldn't we use copywork for writing practice? Is it necessary to link our literature study with our grammar/writing work at this early age?

The people on the Memoria Press forums are very helpful. Everyone makes the literature guides that MP sells sound so beautiful, simple, etc. I bought Storytime Treasures, their 1st grade set, and the problem is that my son was reading these books 2 years ago. He can answer the comprehension questions orally in full sentences in his sleep. He prefers to use a handwriting curriculum rather than use these guides as writing practice. I looked online at the 2nd grade literature guide samples... I know that the comprehension questions are supposed to be meaningful, teach them to form a sentence, etc...It seems like they are useful for a certain student, but not my son. I think we could use our time doing something so much more productive for him. The MP guides are very pretty and the people are helpful, but when I actually open some of the student books, I have been very let down.

My other question is about CLE Math. I have been using Rod and Staff but it is not working for us. We have used Singapore but it is not enough review for my son. I like that the Singapore method uses the Conceptual-Pictorial-Abstract method of teaching. I was a little concerned that Rod and Staff goes right to memorization and places SO much emphasis on memorizing facts before it seems like the student has been directed to spend time using manipulatives. I am also concerned with the lack of practice with strategies such as number line, counting on.

Is CLE math different in these specific areas? We will be starting about half way through the 100 level, I believe.

 

[Momto6inIN]

1 hour ago, dodgeat2 said:

If my son can have a discussion with me and I can know through narration or a summary that he knows what happened in the passage, couldn't we use copywork for writing practice?

 

Absolutely 🙂

I do use a very select few lit guides in middle school - but only because I think it's good practice for them to do some independent output on their reading before getting into lit analysis essays in high school, not as a means of testing comprehension. They are almost never necessary in elementary school at all. My kids just read 🙂

I don't know anything about CLE, so hopefully someone else can chime in there. Welcome to hs'ing!

 

[8filltheheart]

I can share my experience as someone who also has a background in education.  The most important thing I ever did for our homeschool was forget absolutely every single thing I learned about teaching in a ps. 😉

For perspective, I am the exact opposite of a MP teacher.  With my little kids, I don't use any textbook type curriculum other than a math book.  In 25+ yrs of homeschooling, my kids have never filled in a single worksheet assigned by me.  Literature, history, science......I cover all of those with my young kids through reading and discussion. We read together, go on rabbit trails, stop and talk and maybe drop whatever we were reading to find out answers to questions that come up.  Nothing is open this, do that, move on to do this, do that. 

Copywork is for learning how to write complete sentences, simple grammar and mechanics, etc. At 6, it is short and simple, maybe a couple of sentences.

With my kids, I don't let ability influence output expectations; it is easy to succumb to output expectations that exceed their age.  Just bc they can doesn't mean they should. 6 is young.  Homeschooling is an endurance endeavor. Moms are not the only ones who burn out.  Kids can definitely be burned out by too high of expectations.  I have a couple of very gifted kids, but my rule of thumb is about an hour of academics/grade level until middle school.  So, k and 1st is around an hr, maybe and hour and a half, 2nd= 2 to 2 1/2 hrs, etc.  Middle school is around 6-8 hrs and high school 7-9 hrs.  Not pursuing long days when they were little has not meant not reaching high levels of academic achievement.  Quite the contrary, actually.  By letting them be kids and just doing our own (non-textbook) thing, they have moved through materials at their own natural progression and encouraged strong interests driven by their own internal motivation.

 

[dodgeat2]

Thank you, everyone!

8FilltheHeart, do you have to show progress to your state/district? How do you show evidence of progress/student work in those subjects in which you do reading and discussion only? How do you select the literature/science/history books you use, and do you buy them or get them from a library? So, do you just use copywork for handwriting and grammar? Have you used the WTM First Language Lessons? I am using that right now and my son seems to like it.

Paradox5, I am Catholic and have decided that BJU is not an option for us due to some of their statements and materials they publish. I am sure that is mostly the same with CLE but I haven't found anything blatant yet. I have ordered CLE and will try it. With Rod and Staff, it was a lot of problem sets, and I would just assign him less problems. 

Thank you for the other recommendations! I will look into your GT ideas.

[Elizabeth86]

11 hours ago, dodgeat2 said:

Hello 🙂 I am in my first year of homeschooling. I have four children aged 6, 4, 2, and 12 months. I went to school for K-8 teaching and worked as an Ed. Tech and 5th Grade English Language Arts teacher before having children.

My questions only pertain to my son who turned six in August. We are calling him Kindergarten for our state requirements, but I have been using first grade material. He learned to read with 100 Easy Lessons as a 4 year old and has the vocabulary, oral language, reading fluency and comprehension of a 3rd/4th grade student. He began to use the correct pencil grip and form large letters last summer right around his sixth birthday... He now can print well but does not have much endurance for writing.

I have mostly been using Memoria Press materials with him this school year. I am on this forum because some of these materials have been leading me to questions about how I want to teach him in this stage of his education.

I have been reading The Well Trained Mind. I love these quotes and I am hoping someone can help me make sure I am interpreting them correctly.

In reference to the Grammar Stage: "Let the child delve deep. Let him read, read, read. Don't force him to stop and reflect on it yet. Don't make him decide what he likes and doesn't like about ancient Rome; let him wallow..." (pg. 23)

"Narration removes the need for comprehension questions. Instead of learning to complete fill-in-the-blank questions, the child uses all his mental faculties to understand, remember, and relate the main points of a story". (pg. 59).

Am I interpreting The WTM book correctly in thinking that Susan and Jessie would be against literature guides with many written (or even orally done?) comprehension questions for young students? I hate to use the term "kill joy". If my son can have a discussion with me and I can know through narration or a summary that he knows what happened in the passage, couldn't we use copywork for writing practice? Is it necessary to link our literature study with our grammar/writing work at this early age?

The people on the Memoria Press forums are very helpful. Everyone makes the literature guides that MP sells sound so beautiful, simple, etc. I bought Storytime Treasures, their 1st grade set, and the problem is that my son was reading these books 2 years ago. He can answer the comprehension questions orally in full sentences in his sleep. He prefers to use a handwriting curriculum rather than use these guides as writing practice. I looked online at the 2nd grade literature guide samples... I know that the comprehension questions are supposed to be meaningful, teach them to form a sentence, etc...It seems like they are useful for a certain student, but not my son. I think we could use our time doing something so much more productive for him. The MP guides are very pretty and the people are helpful, but when I actually open some of the student books, I have been very let down.

My other question is about CLE Math. I have been using Rod and Staff but it is not working for us. We have used Singapore but it is not enough review for my son. I like that the Singapore method uses the Conceptual-Pictorial-Abstract method of teaching. I was a little concerned that Rod and Staff goes right to memorization and places SO much emphasis on memorizing facts before it seems like the student has been directed to spend time using manipulatives. I am also concerned with the lack of practice with strategies such as number line, counting on.

Is CLE math different in these specific areas? We will be starting about half way through the 100 level, I believe.

 

What is it with MP?  It totally draws me in with all those lovely books and then it sucks the joy out it.  

[Elizabeth86]

10 hours ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

I can share my experience as someone who also has a background in education.  The most important thing I ever did for our homeschool was forget absolutely every single thing I learned about teaching in a ps. 😉

For perspective, I am the exact opposite of a MP teacher.  With my little kids, I don't use any textbook type curriculum other than a math book.  In 25+ yrs of homeschooling, my kids have never filled in a single worksheet assigned by me.  Literature, history, science......I cover all of those with my young kids through reading and discussion. We read together, go on rabbit trails, stop and talk and maybe drop whatever we were reading to find out answers to questions that come up.  Nothing is open this, do that, move on to do this, do that. 

 

 

Trying not to hijak this thread, but I'm curious how long you take this read and discuss approach.  I'm working on relaxing my homeschool and I think this sounds like a great plan for little kids, I just feel unsure how long it is good to do this for?  When do they stop being little kids and get textbooks?  I know there is no set rule, I'm just curious what your "rule" is.  

[8filltheheart]

We have moved a lot over our yrs of homeschooling and every state has their own laws.  I always comply with the laws of the state where we live, but I do not alter my approach or my educational philosophy. Just bc you have to demonstrate progress does not mean it has to replicate a traditional ps approach.  I present what we are doing in academic terms and incorporate samples that demonstrate progression through my stated goals/objectives.  Book titles with copywork selections, pictures,  simple timelines/illustrations, etc all show progress.  It doesn't have to be a workbook with x# of pages completed.

Your questions are great and topics we have discussed at length on the forums. Briefly, I do not accept the premise that ps's have the correct answer to scope/sequence/educational methodology.  Since you were a 5th grade English teacher, I will be very upfront and state that I believe that today's standards of writing for 5th graders are completely inappropriate.  Instead of expecting 5th graders to write essays, I teach my kids solid basic writing skills that can be used as the underlying structure for any form of writing.  We focus on the skeletal structure that all good writing possesses and then develop the skills that are the flesh that modifies function and style.  I have never found a writing program that I like, so I have come up with my own method of teaching across curriculum that has worked well with my children.  (Yrs ago I wrote a fairly in depth description here (it encompasses 2 sequential posts) 

 

Literature/science/history selections are not parent controlled.  I work with my kids to design courses around subjects that interest them.  We meet during the summer and decide on general themes.  Then I make general selections and form a general scope/sequence with long lists of possible resources. I am not wedded to selections and we often go off on long rabbit trails and then eventually meander back to our general theme.  For example, this yr my 4th grader and I are reading the Chronicles of Narnia.  Along with that study, we are doing English history.  During our reading of various books, some topics have come up that have led to getting more books to dig deeper into topics than I had originally intended (for example, we spent weeks reading about the Magna Charta and later Joan of Arc.  I hadn't intended to spend that much time on either one.)  Science topics sometimes coincide with our other studies (oceanography, cartography, sailing, etc), but sometimes life brings up topics that swerve us off that path for awhile (this yr we took a major detour through Noble Prize discoveries in science and medicine b/c we started talking about immunizations and antibiotics.).

Writing takes place across curriculum all the way through high school graduation.  So, my 4th grader is working on simple reports or "chpt books."  My 8th and 12th graders' writing assignments rotate through their literature, science, and history topics.  Starting in 3rd grade, I select topics from what they are studying, have them do additional research on the topic, and write a report (when they are younger) or research paper or essay when they are older.

There are some wonderful threads that have been written over the yrs.  Here are couple that might be inspiring:

https://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/193372-the-breadth-vs-depth-question/

https://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/359457-how-does-one-provide-a-classical-education-circe-institute-lovers/

 

Edited January 19, 2020 by 8FillTheHeart

[8filltheheart]

43 minutes ago, Elizabeth86 said:

Trying not to hijak this thread, but I'm curious how long you take this read and discuss approach.  I'm working on relaxing my homeschool and I think this sounds like a great plan for little kids, I just feel unsure how long it is good to do this for?  When do they stop being little kids and get textbooks?  I know there is no set rule, I'm just curious what your "rule" is.  

 

Until graduation??  I really don't use textbooks for most subjects.  For the most part, we read and discuss.  Subjects where I do use textbooks are math, some of our foreign language studies, and high school science (though I have created an ecology course that doesn't use a textbook).  Reading whole books on various topics, watching Great Courses lectures and/or documentaries, writing papers, and discussing what we are doing represents the core of most of their coursework during high school.

FWIW, I absolutely disagree with the sentiment "When do they stop being little kids and get textbooks?" b/c I disagree that textbooks are always the best sources of information or for learning.  Textbooks are predigested information that has been preselected and filtered as a textbook committee's preferred body of knowledge.  There is nothing inherently superior about a textbook.  Trade books/whole books on subjects written by authors who are experts or passionate about a field are often superior resources.  In addition, students have to read the material and decide for themselves what is the key information.  Processing a large body of information and synthesizing it down into key points is a valuable skill (one completely lacking in ps textbook focused methodologies.) 

My older kids create their own notes of what they read.  Some use their own system.  Some use something similar to Cornell Notes.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsR-10piMp4  (We do not do written narration.  My kids discuss with me and create their notes as summaries.)

High school science is the one area where textbooks have priority in our homeschool.  There is way too much information/application/problem sets for me to figure out any other efficient means of teaching.  But until high school credit worthy courses, whole books are the way we go. 

 

 

Edited January 19, 2020 by 8FillTheHeart

36 minutes ago, Elizabeth86 said:

What is it with MP?  It totally draws me in with all those lovely books and then it sucks the joy out it.  

I love MP, but much of what I love are the people there.  I have tried full cores, but that didn’t work for me and my kids never fit in nicely without substitutions.  There is too much there for me to balance multiple children and I don’t give tests outside of spelling and Latin to my kids until at least middle school.  I love their Latin form series and I really like their classical studies offerings.  Both of those are products that I haven’t found elsewhere for that age range.  We read and discuss the classical studies, go over the drill questions orally and call it good.  I think the trick with MP is not to feel that you have to fill in every question and know that even the teachers in their school don’t give all the crazy long tests as written.  Use what they have and make it your own.

To the OP, my youngest is much like yours...taught himself to read at 3 and we went through AAR by his 5th birthday.  Have you looked at Right Start math?  My kids and I have all really enjoyed that program.  At the lower levels it has very little writing involved.  We are Catholic as well so I never considered BJU either.

[dodgeat2]

19 minutes ago, Mom2mthj said:

I love MP, but much of what I love are the people there.  I have tried full cores, but that didn’t work for me and my kids never fit in nicely without substitutions.  There is too much there for me to balance multiple children and I don’t give tests outside of spelling and Latin to my kids until at least middle school.  I love their Latin form series and I really like their classical studies offerings.  Both of those are products that I haven’t found elsewhere for that age range.  We read and discuss the classical studies, go over the drill questions orally and call it good.  I think the trick with MP is not to feel that you have to fill in every question and know that even the teachers in their school don’t give all the crazy long tests as written.  Use what they have and make it your own.

To the OP, my youngest is much like yours...taught himself to read at 3 and we went through AAR by his 5th birthday.  Have you looked at Right Start math?  My kids and I have all really enjoyed that program.  At the lower levels it has very little writing involved.  We are Catholic as well so I never considered BJU either.

I have looked at Right Start but it seems expensive and I am a little apprehensive about non traditional methods and my ability to easily teach them....I will do a little more research into it. How has Right Start been for you to teach?

Aside from learning styles, how much of learning is tied to writing? One thing the MP people seem to stand by is that children learn/retain information by writing it down. I wonder if this is scientifically true in general and how much learning styles come into play. 

[8filltheheart]

40 minutes ago, dodgeat2 said:

I have looked at Right Start but it seems expensive and I am a little apprehensive about non traditional methods and my ability to easily teach them....I will do a little more research into it. How has Right Start been for you to teach?

Aside from learning styles, how much of learning is tied to writing? One thing the MP people seem to stand by is that children learn/retain information by writing it down. I wonder if this is scientifically true in general and how much learning styles come into play. 

My experience with my kids is that discussion combined with their notes and papers has been enough for long-term memory. It hasn't taken studying for tests or typical school type assignments. (No notes required before middle school.)

[Farrar]

2 hours ago, dodgeat2 said:

I have looked at Right Start but it seems expensive and I am a little apprehensive about non traditional methods and my ability to easily teach them....I will do a little more research into it. How has Right Start been for you to teach?

Aside from learning styles, how much of learning is tied to writing? One thing the MP people seem to stand by is that children learn/retain information by writing it down. I wonder if this is scientifically true in general and how much learning styles come into play. 

Right Start is scripted. You won't have trouble teaching it unless you have trouble allocating time to teach it or organize the materials (which are real concerns - you have littles and it's a time consuming, but excellent, program). There is written practice, but also really good manipulatives. There are clear lessons. The focus is on the learning, not the written output.

As to writing... I think *some* kids do take in content without writing. I think focusing on the written output as the only form of output is a big mistake. Discussions and experiences and so forth can be just as key. However, the writing part - taking notes, doing outlining, writing summaries, and eventually writing essays, writing detailed answers, writing lab reports, taking tests, etc. are key for most kids, not just for skills but also for content. However, for early elementary, I think that doesn't need to be a part of your thinking at all. In my experience, schools tend to think that if students aren't doing those things, then they can't be learning so even for kids who are just learning to write, they look for ways to show of physical products as evidence. For early elementary school, the only arena where kids really need to be physically writing is for learning handwriting. Some other output can be good too - art (which is great for small motor skills), and fun projects, and you writing down the little stories they tell, and sometimes math or other worksheets are good too... but really, it doesn't need to be the focus. After all, most kids can't really write much for awhile. And you can focus on the input - talking about the books you read, taking nature walks, watching fun educational shows together, making things, cooking together, allowing time for play. And then, at some point, it starts to shift slowly toward more written output... but not until late elementary or well into middle school sometimes, which is fine. And you can still think about some things as being more input driven. I have some courses for my high schoolers that are high on input and low on any written output, where discussion and readings are more key.

In terms of textbooks, they can be a dirty word in homeschooling, but textbooks can be a great resources, especially as you get to the higher grades. Often, intro or remedial level college textbooks for high school or even middle school, depending on the student, can be the best basis for a curriculum. But also, they never become a true necessity. You can use other books, other bases of curriculum and learning.

44 minutes ago, Farrar said:

Right Start is scripted. You won't have trouble teaching it unless you have trouble allocating time to teach it or organize the materials (which are real concerns - you have littles and it's a time consuming, but excellent, program). There is written practice, but also really good manipulatives. There are clear lessons. The focus is on the learning, not the written output.

I would agree with this.  Right Start isn’t something you will spend 10 minutes on and then hand it off although it does get closer to that as the kids get older.  I never intended to hand off early elementary math so it really isn’t as big a time commitment as some make it seem.  I have a master’s in mechanical engineering and I have learned things in teaching my kids and I like how it explains some things I do that I didn’t explicitly know I was doing.  The lessons are clear and aren’t too long, but you do have to commit to playing games and/or the practice sheets or you will be disappointed.   Right Start is a big investment up front (but so was Saxon which I tried with my oldest), but there isn’t much added from year to year.  My older kids have moved onto algebra without issues...well, no issues if you don’t count my son who would rather day dream than do math, but that isn’t Right Start’s fault.

[dodgeat2]

18 hours ago, Mom2mthj said:

I would agree with this.  Right Start isn’t something you will spend 10 minutes on and then hand it off although it does get closer to that as the kids get older.  I never intended to hand off early elementary math so it really isn’t as big a time commitment as some make it seem.  I have a master’s in mechanical engineering and I have learned things in teaching my kids and I like how it explains some things I do that I didn’t explicitly know I was doing.  The lessons are clear and aren’t too long, but you do have to commit to playing games and/or the practice sheets or you will be disappointed.   Right Start is a big investment up front (but so was Saxon which I tried with my oldest), but there isn’t much added from year to year.  My older kids have moved onto algebra without issues...well, no issues if you don’t count my son who would rather day dream than do math, but that isn’t Right Start’s fault.

Can you tell me about how long it would take per day to complete Right Start in levels A or B? 

[wathe]

I love 8's approach, and I use a similar one for the subjects I am strong in.  For subjects I'm weaker in (history, grammar, teaching reading) I do use texts, but they are for me, not the kids.  I need guidance on  what to teach and how to do it.  I've used children's lit guides for myself, to help me engage in more meaningful discussion of what we are reading.

I used first edition because that was what was available when I started and I never upgraded.  My level A was 77 lessons, some of which were spread over a couple of day.  I believe the second edition cleaned that up into more equal length lessons.  During level A I never went more than about 20 minutes because that was about the extent of their attention span.  We still finished in less than a year.  The exception would be if they really liked the game and wanted to play multiple times.  Level B was a bit longer and sometimes we would play the game later in the day.  I like to finish a lesson a day, but I quit when it feels like I am losing them.  Better a short time every day, then a session that is too long.  We always do some math in the summer so I am not too concerned about finishing a book exactly in a school year.  

[medawyn]

13 hours ago, dodgeat2 said:

Can you tell me about how long it would take per day to complete Right Start in levels A or B? 

 

It takes my current K student somewhere between 15-20 minutes per lesson in RightStart A.  Her older brother was a bit quicker, but he was also an older K.  The lessons in B were about the same length for him.  The games can push a lesson longer, if it's a game they enjoy.

For reference, I also have four, and we're exactly a year ahead of you with almost 7 (in Feb), 5, 3, and 2 (on Wednesday!).  For RightStart, I have everything organized into a file box.  The manuals/worksheets I'm currently using + the game manual are in file folder in the back.  Dry erase boards and abacus slide right in front, and I have two small boxes holding the rest of the manipulative in the very front.  Almost everything fits in one box, and certainly everything I grab on a daily basis.  I flip through the lessons on Sunday evening to make sure I don't need to prepare anything else (rare), and we're ready to go for the week. 

And to speak to your other question, I do no worksheets or textbooks for literature (or any subject) with either my 1st grader or my K student.  My oldest in an advanced reader, and he reads what he wants from a "school list" I have given him (and truly what he wants outside of school time).  He starts by reading aloud to me for 5-8 minutes to work on fluency and then reads independently for 20 minutes while I work with his sister.  For literature, I don't have him narrate until the next day, when he fills me in on what I missed in the story.  I specifically work on narration with other subjects - usually history or science - and I let him know that he will be required to produce an oral narration before I read the relevant section of the text.  

His only writing is copywork.  I use copywork to discuss grammar and mechanics, any spelling issues that might pop up, observations about the writing itself, and penmanship.

Honestly, as someone who came from classroom teaching experience (five years in 2nd grade, and five years in 8th grade LA), I'm thrilled to ditch the lit guides and move strictly to rich conversations about what we are reading.

[Xahm]

If you like the methods of Singapore but find there isn't enough practice, have you looked into the additional books? I think there's one for extra practice, one with extra word problems, and one with challenging problems, or something like that. I'm afraid we don't use it, so I'm basing that of recommendations I've read here before. (We use mostly Math Mammoth and Beast Academy currently)