annegables 515 Report post Posted January 15 My son is almost finished with AoPS geometry (he did their pre-alg and alg) and will be starting Number Theory and Counting and Prob which will take us till about next fall. I dont want to continue with AoPS (unless someone can talk me out of it!). He is great at math and wants to go into the sciences, but he is not a pure math kid. And he enjoys math, but it isnt his complete passion. My concern is continuing with AoPS will be unnecessarily miserable moving forward (he has enjoyed AoPS thus far). However, I was perusing Larson's Alg2 book and it looks like my son know 90% of the book from other courses he has done (AoPS, Dreambox to the end, and Khan Academy). Same with Lial Intermediate Alg. Is there something I am missing? I am betting that if I gave him the chapter reviews right now, he would ace them (he has a memory like a steel trap). Is there another curriculum I should consider? There is no way my son would consent to doing review for months on end just for the sake of checking a box. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites

forty-two 2,469 Report post Posted January 15 23 minutes ago, annegables said: I am betting that if I gave him the chapter reviews right now, he would ace them (he has a memory like a steel trap). My thought is to do just that. Figure out what publisher/author/series you want to use, get their Alg 2 book, and have him go through the chapter reviews. If he indeed aces the review, then he's "tested out" of that chapter. If he only misses a few topics and aces the rest, have him just do those sections. If he's not solid on several topics, have him do the whole chapter. That way he can get what he needs without a ton of review, and be ready for the next math book in the series. It doesn't surprise me at all that a kid who's done all the AOPS Alg book has mostly mastered the "usual" Alg 2 content. (IIRC doing chs 1-7 of AOPS Introductory Alg covers all the "usual" Alg 1 topics, and the rest of the book moves into typical "Alg 2" topics.) 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites

TracyP 2,927 Report post Posted January 15 He is doing well with AoPS and likes it.... I would not change programs as long as that continues to be the case. If it ain't broke don't fix it, ya know? If you do decide to switch - Over the years many people have given credit for Alg 1 and 2 for kids who complete the entire AoPS intro book. That used to even be the rec on the AoPS forum, though I think the've moved away from that. It is no surprise that your kiddo has mastered the majority of what most publishers consider Alg 2. Also, Lial's Intermediate Algebra is somewhat light. My dd followed it up with a second Alg 2 program. I think you are on the right track looking for more challenging programs. Foerester comes to mind. Iirc, it is half alg 2 and half trig so it should offer something new for your ds. 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites

TracyP 2,927 Report post Posted January 15 33 minutes ago, forty-two said: ...snip... (IIRC doing chs 1-7 of AOPS Introductory Alg covers all the "usual" Alg 1 topics, and the rest of the book moves into typical "Alg 2" topics.) You would have to go at least through Ch. 10, better yet Ch. 14 for Alg 1. FWIW... 🙂 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites

annegables 515 Report post Posted January 15 39 minutes ago, TracyP said: He is doing well with AoPS and likes it.... I would not change programs as long as that continues to be the case. If it ain't broke don't fix it, ya know? If you do decide to switch - Over the years many people have given credit for Alg 1 and 2 for kids who complete the entire AoPS intro book. That used to even be the rec on the AoPS forum, though I think the've moved away from that. It is no surprise that your kiddo has mastered the majority of what most publishers consider Alg 2. Also, Lial's Intermediate Algebra is somewhat light. My dd followed it up with a second Alg 2 program. I think you are on the right track looking for more challenging programs. Foerester comes to mind. Iirc, it is half alg 2 and half trig so it should offer something new for your ds. I kind of agree with not switching programs. My concern is that I have heard that the intermediate levels for AoPS (Alg2 and up) ramp up with difficulty and get deep into the theoretical. Another option is to get AoPS Alg2 and just not go as in depth. I recognize this is almost blasphemy, but I dont want to burn my kid out. I picked up the Lials book a few years ago thinking it was Alg1 (I had no idea what Intermediate Alg was at the time). I flipped through it recently and it covered almost everything my kid has done. I got the Larson book to compare thinking that there would be a ton of new stuff in it, and there just wasnt. (Note, I am referring to new stuff for my kid, not necessarily between the books). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites

annegables 515 Report post Posted January 15 I just realized that my memories of taking Alg2 are probably my memories of pre-calc/trig. 🙄 Why the second half of AoPS alg is considered Alg2 makes so much sense to me now. I kept looking for trig and pre-calc and didnt find it. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites

EKS 12,551 Report post Posted January 15 Lial Intermediate Algebra is Algebra 1 with a few extra topics thrown in. Take a look at Derek Owens. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites

TracyP 2,927 Report post Posted January 15 (edited) You might want to check out this thread to see how to pick and choose from AoPS Intermediate. https://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/361425-aops-or-college-algebratrig/?do=findComment&comment=3744226 Specifially the post by Kathy in Richmond Edited January 15 by TracyP added info 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites

square_25 1,090 Report post Posted January 15 5 hours ago, annegables said: I kind of agree with not switching programs. My concern is that I have heard that the intermediate levels for AoPS (Alg2 and up) ramp up with difficulty and get deep into the theoretical. Another option is to get AoPS Alg2 and just not go as in depth. I recognize this is almost blasphemy, but I dont want to burn my kid out. I picked up the Lials book a few years ago thinking it was Alg1 (I had no idea what Intermediate Alg was at the time). I flipped through it recently and it covered almost everything my kid has done. I got the Larson book to compare thinking that there would be a ton of new stuff in it, and there just wasnt. (Note, I am referring to new stuff for my kid, not necessarily between the books). I've been teaching Intermediate Algebra, and I wouldn't say it goes deep into the theoretical. We do, of course, do proofs, but I think often thinking out the reasoning behind the reasoning behind a proof helps with the understanding that allows you to do other things. The thing I worry about more with AoPS is going too fast, when it's going over new material. But if he's enjoying AoPS, I'd stick to it. 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites

annegables 515 Report post Posted January 16 5 hours ago, TracyP said: You might want to check out this thread to see how to pick and choose from AoPS Intermediate. https://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/361425-aops-or-college-algebratrig/?do=findComment&comment=3744226 Specifially the post by Kathy in Richmond Dumb question - how are you able to find these threads??? I feel like I search and never come up with the good stuff. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites

mmasc 2,408 Report post Posted January 16 5 hours ago, EKS said: Lial Intermediate Algebra is Algebra 1 with a few extra topics thrown in. Take a look at Derek Owens. I think this is the book Jann in TX for myhomeschoolmathclass uses for Algebra 2. Is it not Algebra 2??? @EKS @Jann in TX Share this post Link to post Share on other sites

EKS 12,551 Report post Posted January 16 1 minute ago, mmasc said: I think this is the book Jann in TX for myhomeschoolmathclass uses for Algebra 2. Is it not Algebra 2??? @EKS @Jann in TX Jann in TX and I disagree about this point. Here is a comparison between Lial Intermediate Algebra and Derek Owens' Algebra 2 that I posted originally in this thread: DO has a much more extensive and conceptual treatment of graphing throughout the course, specifically how graphs of various functions are shifted up, down, left, right, scaled, and flipped. This is stressed over and over again whereas Lial mentions it in passing two times. DO has a fuller discussion of complex numbers (including a bit of history), which includes graphing complex numbers in the complex plane and determining their absolute value. DO discusses factoring polynomials MUCH more extensively than Lial does. Lial rehashes how to factor quadratics and then touches on factoring sums and differences of cubes and that is it. DO introduces the remainder theorem, synthetic division, and the rational zeros theorem to deal with higher degree polynomials. DO's treatment of polynomials in general is far superior to Lial. He discusses the end behavior of polynomial functions, repeated roots and what they mean graphically. Eventually students are able to find the roots of functions like f(x)=x^4-5x^3-15x^2-5x-26. DO has a more extensive and conceptual discussion of e. DO has a more extensive and conceptual treatment of graphing rational functions, including a detailed discussion of how to find vertical, horizontal, and oblique asymptotes. Lial mentions vertical and horizontal asymptotes almost as an afterthought and only for very easy functions such as f(x)=2/(x-1) whereas DO talks about functions like f(x)=(x^2+x-6)/(2x+4). DO has a more extensive and conceptual treatment of conic sections. DO includes a chapter on sequences and series, and Lial does not. DO includes two chapters on trigonometry (intro to trig and graphs of trig functions), and Lial does not. Lial Intermediate Algebra repeats a whole lot of what is in Lial Introductory Algebra. If Introductory Algebra were also light, I would understand. But it's not--it is equivalent to DO's Algebra I course. 2 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites

square_25 1,090 Report post Posted January 16 2 minutes ago, EKS said: Jann in TX and I disagree about this point. Here is a comparison between Lial Intermediate Algebra and Derek Owens' Algebra 2 that I posted originally in this thread: DO has a much more extensive and conceptual treatment of graphing throughout the course, specifically how graphs of various functions are shifted up, down, left, right, scaled, and flipped. This is stressed over and over again whereas Lial mentions it in passing two times. DO has a fuller discussion of complex numbers (including a bit of history), which includes graphing complex numbers in the complex plane and determining their absolute value. DO discusses factoring polynomials MUCH more extensively than Lial does. Lial rehashes how to factor quadratics and then touches on factoring sums and differences of cubes and that is it. DO introduces the remainder theorem, synthetic division, and the rational zeros theorem to deal with higher degree polynomials. DO's treatment of polynomials in general is far superior to Lial. He discusses the end behavior of polynomial functions, repeated roots and what they mean graphically. Eventually students are able to find the roots of functions like f(x)=x^4-5x^3-15x^2-5x-26. DO has a more extensive and conceptual discussion of e. DO has a more extensive and conceptual treatment of graphing rational functions, including a detailed discussion of how to find vertical, horizontal, and oblique asymptotes. Lial mentions vertical and horizontal asymptotes almost as an afterthought and only for very easy functions such as f(x)=2/(x-1) whereas DO talks about functions like f(x)=(x^2+x-6)/(2x+4). DO has a more extensive and conceptual treatment of conic sections. DO includes a chapter on sequences and series, and Lial does not. DO includes two chapters on trigonometry (intro to trig and graphs of trig functions), and Lial does not. Lial Intermediate Algebra repeats a whole lot of what is in Lial Introductory Algebra. If Introductory Algebra were also light, I would understand. But it's not--it is equivalent to DO's Algebra I course. Personally, I'd expect all of the things you list from an Algebra 2 class. This makes Lial sound too light to me. (And you'll need quite a few of those topics in calculus, if that's where you're headed.) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites

TracyP 2,927 Report post Posted January 16 16 minutes ago, annegables said: Dumb question - how are you able to find these threads??? I feel like I search and never come up with the good stuff. Well, in this case I remembered exactly what I was looking for so I was able to google: AoPS precalculus KathyinRichmond site:welltrainedmind.com That was a pretty targeted search. The only advice I can offer is make sure you are including site:welltrainedmind.com in your search if you aren't already. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites

annegables 515 Report post Posted January 16 4 minutes ago, TracyP said: Well, in this case I remembered exactly what I was looking for so I was able to google: AoPS precalculus KathyinRichmond site:welltrainedmind.com That was a pretty targeted search. The only advice I can offer is make sure you are including site:welltrainedmind.com in your search if you aren't already. Thank you!!! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites

square_25 1,090 Report post Posted January 16 As for searching, I will sometimes search by the author, and that works better than just a random search. Or I'll only search in the titles. But perhaps just using Google is a good idea, lol. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites

Mom2mthj 140 Report post Posted January 16 21 hours ago, TracyP said: He is doing well with AoPS and likes it.... I would not change programs as long as that continues to be the case. If it ain't broke don't fix it, ya know? If you do decide to switch - Over the years many people have given credit for Alg 1 and 2 for kids who complete the entire AoPS intro book. That used to even be the rec on the AoPS forum, though I think the've moved away from that. It is no surprise that your kiddo has mastered the majority of what most publishers consider Alg 2. Also, Lial's Intermediate Algebra is somewhat light. My dd followed it up with a second Alg 2 program. I think you are on the right track looking for more challenging programs. Foerester comes to mind. Iirc, it is half alg 2 and half trig so it should offer something new for your ds. I am still a bit confused about what AoPS intermediate algebra is if their intro algebra book covers traditional algebra 1 and 2 topics. I have their intro algebra book on my kitchen table that I checked out on inter library loan yesterday. My son is in chapter 7 of Foerster Algebra 1 and I keep hearing lots about AoPS so I wanted to check it out for comparison purposes. My daughter loves Foerster and is working her way through the algebra 2/trig book....I expect her to finish in a couple of months. Kolbe says a student can move from that book into calculus and the veritas Press precalculus class appears to use the algebra 2 book for precalculus, but I still feel a bit uneasy about skipping precalculus. What precalculus topics should I be looking to be sure she has completed before starting calculus? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites

TracyP 2,927 Report post Posted January 16 1 hour ago, Mom2mthj said: I am still a bit confused about what AoPS intermediate algebra is if their intro algebra book covers traditional algebra 1 and 2 topics. I have their intro algebra book on my kitchen table that I checked out on inter library loan yesterday. My son is in chapter 7 of Foerster Algebra 1 and I keep hearing lots about AoPS so I wanted to check it out for comparison purposes. My daughter loves Foerster and is working her way through the algebra 2/trig book....I expect her to finish in a couple of months. Kolbe says a student can move from that book into calculus and the veritas Press precalculus class appears to use the algebra 2 book for precalculus, but I still feel a bit uneasy about skipping precalculus. What precalculus topics should I be looking to be sure she has completed before starting calculus? AoPS isn't a traditional program, so I think it is hard to put it into the traditional sequence. A kid who completes the series may have a typical sounding transcript, but they will have covered *far more* than is typical. That makes it hard to compare. I haven't used AoPS at the intermediate level, but my understanding is that it covers topics from alg 2, alg 3 (college alg), competition math, and some precalculus. HTH! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites

RootAnn 11,673 Report post Posted January 16 @Mom2mthj In my experience, PreCalc overs some of the same topics as Alg 2 w/Trig (Foerster), but more in depth. So, my DD did PreCalc with another text after Foerster's Alg 2 book. She found that the 2nd time through cemented the initial exposure & gave her a better grasp of trig. It isn't that you need to have touched on certain topics; it is that you need to be comfortable with them at more than a surface level. I personally wouldn't go straight to Calc after Foerster's Alg 2 book. If you want to see scope/sequence, check out Derek Owens Alg 2 vs PreCalc. Some of the same things are covered, but PreCalc will cover them in more depth. AoPS, as others have said, doesn't have the same scope/sequence as "traditional" texts. If you aren't using it, I wouldn't compare with it. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites

Mom2mthj 140 Report post Posted January 16 1 hour ago, RootAnn said: @Mom2mthj In my experience, PreCalc overs some of the same topics as Alg 2 w/Trig (Foerster), but more in depth. So, my DD did PreCalc with another text after Foerster's Alg 2 book. She found that the 2nd time through cemented the initial exposure & gave her a better grasp of trig. It isn't that you need to have touched on certain topics; it is that you need to be comfortable with them at more than a surface level. I personally wouldn't go straight to Calc after Foerster's Alg 2 book. If you want to see scope/sequence, check out Derek Owens Alg 2 vs PreCalc. Some of the same things are covered, but PreCalc will cover them in more depth. AoPS, as others have said, doesn't have the same scope/sequence as "traditional" texts. If you aren't using it, I wouldn't compare with it. Thanks for the advice. My daughter has no intention of switching to AoPS, but with three other kids coming down the pike I have been trying to figure out what AoPS is doing that some kids are willing to spend 2+ hours a day on math. I think the number theory book sounds interesting if for no one other than me. I just couldn’t seem to figure out the intro vs intermediate algebra compared to normal textbooks. Honestly, when looking at community college math offerings for my daughter I am still confused about where a class like college algebra fits in, but that is beyond this discussion. As to the original question of switching, I generally adhere to the philosophy of if it isn’t broken, don’t fix it. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites

annegables 515 Report post Posted January 16 Dumb question. If one does Foersters, where does one get the solutions without spending a fortune? I have found Larson's online, but not Foersters. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites

mathnerd 3,556 Report post Posted January 16 5 hours ago, TracyP said: AoPS isn't a traditional program, so I think it is hard to put it into the traditional sequence. A kid who completes the series may have a typical sounding transcript, but they will have covered *far more* than is typical. That makes it hard to compare. I haven't used AoPS at the intermediate level, but my understanding is that it covers topics from alg 2, alg 3 (college alg), competition math, and some precalculus. HTH! I did a chapter-by-chapter comparison of the typical textbook used by the local private schools to AOPS curriculum last year (Brown, Dolciani Classic Alg 2) and found that AOPS covers a few of the topics that the other book covers in the Intermediate Algebra text. So, in order to match the local school offerings in terms of topics covered, a student using AOPS would have to complete Alg B (Intro to Alg text's latter half) as well as some chapters of AOPS Intermediate Alg text. Hope that I made sense typing that out! Intermediate algebra goes into topics which are not featured in the typical high school texts, but, learning those makes the student highly prepared for pre-calc and calculus. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites

Jann in TX 2,865 Report post Posted January 16 20 hours ago, mmasc said: I think this is the book Jann in TX for myhomeschoolmathclass uses for Algebra 2. Is it not Algebra 2??? @EKS @Jann in TX Yes, Lial Intermediate Algebra IS Algebra 2. It flows very nicely into Lial Pre-Calculus-- a leading college-level text. I rather students be SOLID in their algebra foundation than have them rush into higher level topics just to say that their program is 'more advanced'... this does not mean better student understanding! A student who is SOLID in their algebra will be prepared to take on Pre-Calculus when they are enrolled in Pre-Calculus... Algebra 2 has always had fewer 'new' concepts compared to other levels of high school math. One can review Algebra 1 and then take it deeper (building strong foundation) or one can move through that quickly and add in topics from the NEXT LEVEL sooner... I consider DO's Algebra 2 to be 'honors'-- it covers quite a bit of Pre-Calc (the topics mentioned in another post are covered thoroughly in the Lial Pre-Calc text-- good thing, because they are Pre-Calculus topics! The majority of Algebra 2 students are NOT honor's level students. They can still go on to become rocket scientists (I've had several!) Lial Intermediate Algebra's handling of Algebra 2 is still college prep! I personally am glad there is still a CHOICE in progression... it is not a one-size fits all thing. DO and AOPS are great options for students who NEED to be pushed (honors kids). Lial Intermediate (and other standard level Algebra 2 texts) have their place as well! 4 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites

mmasc 2,408 Report post Posted January 17 Thank you both for taking the time to type out the information. It was very helpful! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites

EKS 12,551 Report post Posted January 17 1 hour ago, Jann in TX said: I rather students be SOLID in their algebra foundation than have them rush into higher level topics just to say that their program is 'more advanced'... this does not mean better student understanding! I'd rather they get a second pass at some of the foundational concepts/procedures. 1 hour ago, Jann in TX said: I personally am glad there is still a CHOICE in progression... it is not a one-size fits all thing. I totally agree with this! I am currently using Lial Intermediate Algebra with an Algebra 2 student. We are going quickly through the review (which occasionally means finishing a whole chapter in a single lesson), and it is allowing me to determine and remediate his weaknesses before moving on to precalculus. The Lial texts are really, really good in many, many ways (not the least of which is solution manuals with virtually no errors!). But I think she dropped the ball in the Intermediate Algebra text with regard to new material. I suspect that this is because CCs want to move people as easily as possible to "college level" math (precalculus). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites

shelleysboys 23 Report post Posted January 17 I am so thankful for this conversation!!! My non math guy is doing DO geometry and I was thinking we were moving onto DO Algebra 2 cause I love the self paced but corrected by others - but reading all of this we need to do something else! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites

Jann in TX 2,865 Report post Posted January 17 10 minutes ago, EKS said: The Lial texts are really, really good in many, many ways (not the least of which is solution manuals with virtually no errors!). But I think she dropped the ball in the Intermediate Algebra text with regard to new material. I suspect that this is because CCs want to move people as easily as possible to "college level" math (precalculus). Could be-- but LOTS of homeschoolers like to rush their students into Pre-Calc and Calc too! I have a boat load of texts and have been teaching Algebra 2 for over 30 years...and the Lial program is pretty 'standard'... I would have liked a few more extra/optional topics at the end-- but not a deal breaker for me-- more than 90% of my students really really need the slower progression. We just finished a 'review' of polynomial division-- and today I supplemented with an intro to synthetic division and the remainder theorem (since we are also working with function notation)... it was a fun class. It is one of the FEW times I might supplement this program. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites

EKS 12,551 Report post Posted January 17 13 minutes ago, Jann in TX said: We just finished a 'review' of polynomial division-- and today I supplemented with an intro to synthetic division and the remainder theorem (since we are also working with function notation)... it was a fun class. It is one of the FEW times I might supplement this program. This, IMO, is a one of the huge omissions of the Lial text. 14 minutes ago, Jann in TX said: I have a boat load of texts and have been teaching Algebra 2 for over 30 years...and the Lial program is pretty 'standard'... It is not standard if you look at Common Core texts. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites

Mom2mthj 140 Report post Posted January 17 (edited) 4 hours ago, annegables said: Dumb question. If one does Foersters, where does one get the solutions without spending a fortune? I have found Larson's online, but not Foersters. Not sure which level of foerster’s you are looking for, but rainbow resource and Kolbe sell the solution manual for algebra 1 and 2. I think they were in the $60 range. If you are talking precalculus and calculus the publishers are different. Math without borders says the have video solutions for all assigned problems for all the levels. So for $89 you get lesson videos and solutions videos. It appears that Kolbe will give you a digital copy of the solutions if you are enrolled either single course or full enrollment for precalculus and calc. It looks like a new third edition precalculus solutions manual from the publisher is $162 which is very steep. Edited January 17 by Mom2mthj 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites

annegables 515 Report post Posted January 17 45 minutes ago, Jann in TX said: Could be-- but LOTS of homeschoolers like to rush their students into Pre-Calc and Calc too! I have a boat load of texts and have been teaching Algebra 2 for over 30 years...and the Lial program is pretty 'standard'... I would have liked a few more extra/optional topics at the end-- but not a deal breaker for me-- more than 90% of my students really really need the slower progression. We just finished a 'review' of polynomial division-- and today I supplemented with an intro to synthetic division and the remainder theorem (since we are also working with function notation)... it was a fun class. It is one of the FEW times I might supplement this program. This was something of my concern with bringing this up. I dont want to do pre-calc early (and my DS is already quite accelerated in math), but I didnt want to do an entire year of review that seemed like a waste of time for my kid. I want to push off precalc, not rush into it😁 That being said, the reason m we started homeschooling was to do math at an appropriate pace for my DS. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites

daijobu 4,046 Report post Posted January 17 On 1/15/2020 at 8:14 AM, annegables said: My son is almost finished with AoPS geometry (he did their pre-alg and alg) and will be starting Number Theory and Counting and Prob which will take us till about next fall. I dont want to continue with AoPS (unless someone can talk me out of it!). He is great at math and wants to go into the sciences, but he is not a pure math kid. And he enjoys math, but it isnt his complete passion. My concern is continuing with AoPS will be unnecessarily miserable moving forward (he has enjoyed AoPS thus far). I hear a lot that AoPS is only for future mathematicians, but I disagree. I think the problem solving skills are very helpful in college level engineering and science courses. And it's just good to be smart in something unrelated, even if you become an English major. Is your DS miserable or are you? On 1/15/2020 at 10:04 AM, annegables said: I kind of agree with not switching programs. My concern is that I have heard that the intermediate levels for AoPS (Alg2 and up) ramp up with difficulty and get deep into the theoretical. Another option is to get AoPS Alg2 and just not go as in depth. I recognize this is almost blasphemy, but I dont want to burn my kid out. I don't think this is blasphemy. I have a couple of students who want to use AoPS, but are on a tight schedule. We skip the challenge problems and anything with a star, so we can keep up the pace. Also, I think someone else linked to the "bare bones" precalculus, which will also save time. There's still plenty to enjoy. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites

RootAnn 11,673 Report post Posted January 17 (edited) 1 hour ago, shelleysboys said: I am so thankful for this conversation!!! My non math guy is doing DO geometry and I was thinking we were moving onto DO Algebra 2 cause I love the self paced but corrected by others - but reading all of this we need to do something else! If your ds is doing well in DO geometry, there is no reason not to continue with DO. If he's struggling/miserable, then there are other, easier options. Edited January 17 by RootAnn Tightened it up 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites

annegables 515 Report post Posted January 17 1 hour ago, daijobu said: I hear a lot that AoPS is only for future mathematicians, but I disagree. I think the problem solving skills are very helpful in college level engineering and science courses. And it's just good to be smart in something unrelated, even if you become an English major. Is your DS miserable or are you? I don't think this is blasphemy. I have a couple of students who want to use AoPS, but are on a tight schedule. We skip the challenge problems and anything with a star, so we can keep up the pace. Also, I think someone else linked to the "bare bones" precalculus, which will also save time. There's still plenty to enjoy. The last few chapters of geometry have just been a slog. And it might be because we are just sick of it. I have heard that some people are more algebra people and some are more geometry people. I thing he is the former. When I showed my son the Larson book he flipped through it for 30 seconds, closed it, and said, "I want to do AoPS Alg 2." 😂 I think we might skip the challenge/starred problems. He wants a challenge, just not an excruciatingly unnecessary (for him) amount. Your comment was very helpful, thank you. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites

square_25 1,090 Report post Posted January 17 15 minutes ago, annegables said: The last few chapters of geometry have just been a slog. And it might be because we are just sick of it. I have heard that some people are more algebra people and some are more geometry people. I thing he is the former. When I showed my son the Larson book he flipped through it for 30 seconds, closed it, and said, "I want to do AoPS Alg 2." 😂 I think we might skip the challenge/starred problems. He wants a challenge, just not an excruciatingly unnecessary (for him) amount. Your comment was very helpful, thank you. Geometry just gets... intricate towards the end, if I remember correctly! It mightn't be that he's getting sick of AoPS, per se: it might just be that he wants something less convoluted. Do you remember what the last few chapters are? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites

annegables 515 Report post Posted January 17 We just hit analytic geometry (ch17), which is a breath of fresh air, because it is familiar. Chs 13-16 were just unpleasant. I dont think they were necessarily too difficult (although each problem could take a while!), but after a while, finding so many obscure side lengths and figuring out the drawing to begin with was just a pain. Ch 13 is "Power of a Point", and chs 14-16 are 3D geometry, which sounds like fun, but was just a bit much. We are starting Counting and Probability in a few weeks and both of us are so glad that there are videos with the lessons. Thank God. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites

square_25 1,090 Report post Posted January 17 5 minutes ago, annegables said: We just hit analytic geometry (ch17), which is a breath of fresh air, because it is familiar. Chs 13-16 were just unpleasant. I dont think they were necessarily too difficult (although each problem could take a while!), but after a while, finding so many obscure side lengths and figuring out the drawing to begin with was just a pain. Ch 13 is "Power of a Point", and chs 14-16 are 3D geometry, which sounds like fun, but was just a bit much. We are starting Counting and Probability in a few weeks and both of us are so glad that there are videos with the lessons. Thank God. Yeah, that material is just rough! I think the 3D stuff doesn't have enough scaffolding, if I remember correctly, and Power of a Point is lovely if you're a contest person and have used it before, but otherwise just seems a bit mystifying and hard to remember. Counting and probability is just fun, in my experience :-). Videos or no videos, I think that stuff goes down easier for most kids. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites

annegables 515 Report post Posted January 17 35 minutes ago, square_25 said: Yeah, that material is just rough! I think the 3D stuff doesn't have enough scaffolding, if I remember correctly, and Power of a Point is lovely if you're a contest person and have used it before, but otherwise just seems a bit mystifying and hard to remember. Counting and probability is just fun, in my experience :-). Videos or no videos, I think that stuff goes down easier for most kids. Thank you! My kid is advanced in math, but is not at all a math contest person. The 3D stuff was interesting, but it seemed it got in the weeds pretty fast. Either that or we are just burned out on random shapes. Ch 18 is intro to trig. Ch 19 is problem solving strategies, which we are not doing. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites

8FillTheHeart 30,972 Report post Posted January 17 20 hours ago, Mom2mthj said: I am still a bit confused about what AoPS intermediate algebra is if their intro algebra book covers traditional algebra 1 and 2 topics. I have their intro algebra book on my kitchen table that I checked out on inter library loan yesterday. My son is in chapter 7 of Foerster Algebra 1 and I keep hearing lots about AoPS so I wanted to check it out for comparison purposes. My daughter loves Foerster and is working her way through the algebra 2/trig book....I expect her to finish in a couple of months. Kolbe says a student can move from that book into calculus and the veritas Press precalculus class appears to use the algebra 2 book for precalculus, but I still feel a bit uneasy about skipping precalculus. What precalculus topics should I be looking to be sure she has completed before starting calculus? I am going to echo @RootAnn's comment and say that I would not skip precal. (I have had 6 kids use Foerster's alg 2. 🙂 ) For perspective on Foersters vs. AoPS......keep in mind that I am not well-versed in math outside of my own experiences with my kids (who for the most part have been strong math students.....5 of the 6 graduated with a minimum of cal; my weakest math student only pre-cal.) My ds who is now a physics grad student completed Foerster alg 2 by early 2nd semester of 8th grade. He jumped into AoPS's spring intermediate alg course without any problems. He finished the rest of the AoPS sequence for the equivalent high school math courses. He loved AoPS's approach and it suited him perfectly. He would tell me when he was an UG (physics and math double major) that the skills he learned in AoPS were beneficial. My dd, who is 3 yrs younger than him and was as strong of a math student as he was in high school, had completed Foerster alg 1 when she succumbed to his pressure to try AoPS. She finished the Foerster book also early spring and took their alg 1 course spring semester. She, unlike her brother, did not like AoPS. She did not find the material at all difficult (it was review since she had already taken alg 1) and just thought the teaching style was not for her. She is not someone who wanted to spend hrs on math. She would rather have spent hrs translating languages than on math. Math she just wanted to be directly taught and then she would know how to apply it. FWIW, our oldest is a chemE. He used Foersters for alg and then either Larson or Sullivan for pre-cal/cal (can't remember anymore....he is 30 🙂 ). He was absolutely solidly prepared for engineering. I used to lament that he didn't get the opportunity to use AoPS, but after watching my 2 younger dd's (the one mentioned above and my 12th grader who is planning on pursuing meteorology), I don't anymore. My physics loving ds was a completely different student. He lives in his head and has theories bubbling constantly. He graduated from high school with stacks (we are talking several feet) of notebooks filled with thought experiments. He is still that way and is now studying cosmology (universe expanding, galaxy formation, seeing back in time....stuff I don't even understand 1% of what he is saying). My chemE ds has always been more of an applied math person....building, tinkering, etc. Even now he constantly spends his free time doing things like building an outdoor brick oven or furniture. Foersters provided a solid mathematical foundation for engineering. All's good. 2 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites

smileyme 3 Report post Posted January 21 On 1/15/2020 at 9:35 PM, mmasc said: I think this is the book Jann in TX for myhomeschoolmathclass uses for Algebra 2. Is it not Algebra 2??? @EKS @Jann in TX Where do we find Derek Owens? Looking for practice more on theory and proofing... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites

EKS 12,551 Report post Posted January 21 3 minutes ago, smileyme said: Where do we find Derek Owens? http://www.derekowens.com/ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites

skimomma 2,467 Report post Posted January 22 I was in this same position two years ago. Dd did AoPS through Intro to Geometry. It was tough at times and I thought I might lose my mind but she liked it and insisted on sticking with Int. Algebra after I had her look over several other texts. Two months in, we switched to Foerster. Apparently we hit her limit. She was still not happy to switch but we were so bogged down that I finally just made a decision. Foerster was a LOT of review so I started each chapter with the end of the chapter problems and decided whether to cover the whole chapter, parts, or none at all. We touched up some basics that needed more solidifying and new topics that had not been covered yet. It was very refreshing to have the time and space to do that. We finished well before the end of the year and spent the leftover time informally playing around with some sections from AoPS Int. Alg. Dd had to take fall semester off of math completely and is now dual-enrolled in a Pre-Calc class at a STEM university. She finds it extremely easy. She has been working ahead in the book as she has some planned interruptions later in the semester and claims most of it was covered in Foerster or AoPS books. She had to take the university math placement exam and placed well into Calc I but we choose Pre-Calc due to the break in math and because it is her first DE experience. I was honestly surprised as she did struggle with parts of AoPS. She could do almost none of the challenge problems without help and often had to take a second (or third or fourth) try at the review questions. Her practice ACT math score was also much higher than I expected. All that to say, that AoPS, even if it seemed to be a struggle, really gave my dd a leg up. She is considering a STEM path and I was a bit concerned that math would be a roadblock for her. I am far less concerned now. Looking back, I think slogging through AoPS Int. Alg. would have been fine even if we only got through half of the book. But my own concerns had us jumping ship. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites

annegables 515 Report post Posted January 22 1 hour ago, skimomma said: I was in this same position two years ago. Dd did AoPS through Intro to Geometry. It was tough at times and I thought I might lose my mind but she liked it and insisted on sticking with Int. Algebra after I had her look over several other texts. Two months in, we switched to Foerster. Apparently we hit her limit. She was still not happy to switch but we were so bogged down that I finally just made a decision. Foerster was a LOT of review so I started each chapter with the end of the chapter problems and decided whether to cover the whole chapter, parts, or none at all. We touched up some basics that needed more solidifying and new topics that had not been covered yet. It was very refreshing to have the time and space to do that. We finished well before the end of the year and spent the leftover time informally playing around with some sections from AoPS Int. Alg. Dd had to take fall semester off of math completely and is now dual-enrolled in a Pre-Calc class at a STEM university. She finds it extremely easy. She has been working ahead in the book as she has some planned interruptions later in the semester and claims most of it was covered in Foerster or AoPS books. She had to take the university math placement exam and placed well into Calc I but we choose Pre-Calc due to the break in math and because it is her first DE experience. I was honestly surprised as she did struggle with parts of AoPS. She could do almost none of the challenge problems without help and often had to take a second (or third or fourth) try at the review questions. Her practice ACT math score was also much higher than I expected. All that to say, that AoPS, even if it seemed to be a struggle, really gave my dd a leg up. She is considering a STEM path and I was a bit concerned that math would be a roadblock for her. I am far less concerned now. Looking back, I think slogging through AoPS Int. Alg. would have been fine even if we only got through half of the book. But my own concerns had us jumping ship. I could hug you! Thank you so much for this. The amount of money I have spent on math curriculum... I own Lials and Larson, but I think I am going to buy Foersters and AoPS for Alg 2. What I might end up doing (I have not seen either yet) is comparing Foersters and AoPS and figuring out what is covered in both. Then doing the stuff in Foersters and using AoPS for additional challenge. He enjoys challenging math, but it is not his first love. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites