Jump to content

Menu

Is College Still Worth It? A New St. Louis Federal Reserve Bank Study Says No


chiguirre
 Share

Recommended Posts

Here's the link to the Fed Study:

https://files.stlouisfed.org/files/htdocs/publications/review/2019/10/15/is-college-still-worth-it-the-new-calculus-of-falling-returns.pdf

The college income premium is the extra income earned by a family whose head has a college degree over the income earned by an otherwise similar family whose head does not have a college degree. This premium remains positive but has declined for recent graduates. The college wealth premium (extra net worth) has declined more noticeably among all cohorts born after 1940. Among families whose head is White and born in the 1980s, the college wealth premium of a terminal four-year bachelor’s degree is at a historic low; among families whose head is any other race and ethnicity born in that decade, the premium is statistically indistinguishable from zero. Among families whose head is of any race or ethnicity born in the 1980s and holding a postgraduate degree, the wealth premium is also indistinguishable from zero. Our results suggest that college and postgraduate education may be failing some recent graduates as a financial investment.

Here are links to quick summaries in other media:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/personal-finance/is-college-still-worth-it-read-this-study/2020/01/10/b9894514-3330-11ea-91fd-82d4e04a3fac_story.html

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/01/college-wealth-premium-collapsed/604579/

 

For me personally, this study comes at a useful time. It definitely reaffirms our decision to stick to in state or comparable cost schools and avoid the huge initial outflow that comes with an Ivyish school. (Of course, this is not much of a sacrifice if you live in a state with excellent public universities, I know we're fortunate.)

  • Like 8
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I definitely agree with not spending more than necessary for the college degree but I am seeing a lot of backlash against college in general in my circles and how it is just a piece of paper and not worth it and people that go to college are suckers. 
 

My dh and my BIL are the exact same age. Dh has more education than necessary (two masters and a PhD). BIL has no degree and works in a trade. At 45 yo, BIL has topped out his earning potential and is feeling physical effects of his job. My dh is really just starting to make big strides in his career and the next twenty years hold a lot of growth potential. He also has had better benefits (heath care and 401K) that really make a difference. Ten years ago you would have said they had equal financial situation and my dh’s education didn’t pay off. At 45, dh has moved ahead, at 50 and 55 he will be way ahead and retirement will look very different between the two. Of course that is just an anecdote but it has played out before my eyes.
 

These men would be in a cohort born in the 70’s as opposed to the cohort from the ‘80s in the study. So maybe it is taking longer for the benefit to kick in. 

When you are 18, being told to go to college so you earn more in your forties seems so far away. But now that I am 45 and sending kids to college and wanting to do things for adult children and grandchildren and enjoy the second half of my life it seems totally worth it. But yes, just starting out and early career, someone with a bachelors degree may not out earn the guy in the factory or warehouse (big employers in my area). 
 


 

 

  • Like 13
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks, @chiguirre, for posting this. I read It a few days ago with interest. My take-away was that college was still beneficial but the crushing debt was what caused net worth to stagnate.

Going to the lowest cost, good quality option still seems like it is worth it for kids who are college bound vs taking other routes.

I didn't think the article clearly spelled out the message to not unnecessarily take out large debt if a lower cost & sufficient option was available. It seemed obscured. 

With only one out of five of college-age, my family has a long way to go. The road will definitely be tougher for my younger kids.

  • Like 7
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I took a similar message from RootAnn that college is still worth it, but the debt likely is not.

I had a lot of immediate thoughts that aren't really answered in a study like this too though. How much is this about stagnating wages and not at all about whether or not college can improve your job prospects. Pay in... I don't know how to describe it... second tier professional jobs, I guess... teachers, nurses, bureaucrats, IT folks, programmers, etc. etc. are all not growing at the same rate that the top jobs are. Even jobs with professional degrees - librarian, lawyer, teacher, professor, social worker, psychologist, etc. etc. aren't growing enough to keep up. Like, we both have a shortage of mental health providers AND don't pay them enough. That's a wild situation to me.

It also doesn't really answer anything about fulfillment or happiness or long term health or family life or anything like that. If you break even getting a degree long term, but the degree allows you to have a job with a salary and more security and more family flexibility and more fulfillment (or even just a few of those sorts of things) then maybe it is still obviously worth it. But something like this doesn't measure the difference between a single mom working two service sector jobs with uneven hours struggling to spend time with her kids vs. a single mom working a low salaried job that she got with a college degree who has set times with her kids.

  • Like 10
Link to comment
Share on other sites

My kids are both high achievers and started at the local community college.

With my older one, he had many other options, but he felt unsure and unsteady. Our future finances were also very uncertain then, so I said GO. A lot of people questioned that, but I was convinced that it was the right choice, as was he (more important). He went under guaranteed admit after that to a top-20 program at a state school as a commuter student. He's a double major and has been able to narrow his focus to exactly what he wants because it's a large state school with many options. 

By the time my younger one was ready for college, we had no doubt that community college was the way to go. She also went guaranteed admit. Her major is also nationally-ranked for what she wants to do, and she just interviewed for a wonderful job in her department and was invited to join the honors program. Her department has been exactly want she needed -- very interested in their students with smaller upper division classes. She's gotten to know her professors and is having a ball. 

Both will graduate with no debt and many opportunities. It was a win for us. For what they want to do, a college degree is a must.

Of course we know quite a few of their friends who borrowed and borrowed, and a few who graduated and are doing minimum wage jobs with those loans looming over them. I'm not against loans, but I think you need to minimize them and view your prospects for paying them back reasonably and what your commitment to college is. I teach at the community college level, and more than a few take out the loans and don't have the commitment and/or ability to keep up with their college studies. So then they have a mess on their hands without successfully getting the credits and still having the bill to pay. 

Edited by G5052
  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

29 minutes ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

From what I've seen through my own career and now dh's, larger companies and corporations are NOT on board with the whole anti-college movement, even if those degrees are completely irrelevant to the job in question, and those are the companies the majority of people are going to work for. It's an easy box to check and the AI just scans it before it hits the HR group or recruiter gets the already screened resumes through. Maybe government jobs are different, but I doubt it. Even our police department and our animal control department require people to have degrees! 

Yes, I agree. Applying for jobs with only a high school diploma completely limits your options. Unskilled workers face a whole host of issues that college grads dont.

I am also in the no debt for college camp. I am so far removed from the elite college/need for a live away "experience," that I can't relate to it at all. I think college is important, but that I'm all for affordability.

 

 

  • Like 12
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

I keep thinking about this and I wish I knew how it would look in 100 years, because that's how long it seems like it will need to shift to see if college does become less important.

But I do think it's notable that men are not graduating undergrad or grad school at the same rates as women for some time now, and are not entering certain fields (Medical for instance) in the same rates of women any longer. Men are like a harbinger to me. When they leave a field- generally as it becomes saturated more than due to sexism I think, because a larger applicant pool drives down pay in most cases and guys move to where the money is- it's going to go on the downswing a lot of times. So if men, who run 90-whatever percent of companies, stop seeing a college degree as valuable, will that thought process trickle down into the lower echelons of the company, or will the women who tend to dominate HR, have degrees and put more importance upon them, still control the gate/requirements and mandate the degrees?

Because honestly, HR pulls a lot of the strings when it comes to hiring at most companies on the broader/wider levels. And HR is massively dominated by women- at least in the US. Their say only stops when it gets into the higher levels where applicants are a lot harder to find and thus more valuable and easier to make exception for. 

 

Men are not even being accepted to college at the same rate as women now.  In our state there are only 3 colleges that have more men than women.  One of them is mens college. One of them is almost entirely engineering and tech and the other one merged with another smaller engineering college.  We got intrigued by this  recently and did some research and it is not just our state and it is not even just our country.  

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, Plum said:

I sent this to my dh last week. He was just recruited by a headhunter. The manager told HR to make it happen. 

https://cheezburger.com/9738245/twitter-thread-details-all-the-bs-that-goes-on-in-hr-departments

There are numerous hits on google when I search HR hiring test failed. HR really needs to figure out some better screening methods.

Apparently there are places that now prep you for these things. It's utter bs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I worked in HR for many years.  Risk mitigation is a key role of HR.  If the senior leadership of the company wants degreed individuals to apply for open positions, then HR is going to seek out degreed individuals.  If they deviate from that, they are opening up the company for risk which in turn leads to EEOC complaints, attorneys, and lots and lots of attorney's fees.  For the most part, most HR people are not out there saying, we only want degreed people because we have degrees.  No, they are saying we need degreed people because that is what our senior folks want.  Yes, some of those same leaders then try and make exceptions which exposes the company to risk.  HR usually is the group taking the bad rap for why someone can't be hired.  That is their role, but they are following the direction of their company.  Also, from my experience, a masters is expected in the HR field except for maybe an entry level position.

Regarding the need for a college degree, I have seen many companies loosening their degree required stance to degree preferred.  This allows for exceptions to be made in the hiring process, but, and this is a big but, once that person gets in to the company, they may not have the same promotional opportunities over time as the degree person.  Anytime I hear someone start the "you don't need a degree" talk, I cringe.  College isn't for everyone, but our kids need to look at the long term picture before jumping ship and not getting a degree.  Maybe they need a bachelors only from the local university to get in the door.  I still see education as being one of the ways in which people are grouped.  It may not matter as much from where your degree comes, but having one can get your foot in the door.

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

But IS student debt actually "crushing" the average graduate?  I keep hearing this phrase, but I'm not sure it really is.  The last time I checked, the average was about $35,000 for a graduate.  That is eminently repayable; it's a car (a nice car, but a car), and no one is arguing that we should quit teaching our kids to drive because cars are so expensive.  I would guess that the big difference actually comes when you count the opportunity cost for the four or five years the average student spends in college:  when one could be earning $50K/year, let's say, instead of $0, you're starting professional life $200,000 in the hole.  I would expect that, on average, to be made-up on the back end of a professional career, in those years from 50-60, for instance, when earning power is high in a professional career and possibly lower (or nil) in a trade.  In any event, the earnest new college graduate who is $200,000 in debt for a degree in elementary education made a bad buy, but I do not think she is typical.

Not sure what the point of this post is, other than that I am not sure student loan debt on average is the culprit.  Certainly there are plenty of cases of parents and kids taking on too much for too little, and those are the anecdotes trotted out in news stories about crushing loan debt, but it seems like averages are what we should use to shape policy, not anecdotes. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think it's so hard to get a sense.  My son's college parent board had an article posted recently that cited average level of debt as around 30K and that about half of grads had no debt at all.  And many parents came out of the woodwork and said that must be inaccurate.  Their kid has much more debt and more students MUST have debt than is indicated by an organization that actually has this data and has no reason to lie.  So I do think the figures are accurate.  But it also doesn't show the full range.  If someone has $0 debt and someone has 60K debt, that still averages to 30K.   It also doesn't account for people who default on loans.  Which is a huge problem and we all absorb that as a society when that happens.  

So I think averages don't always tell the full story either.  I think there is a reason federal loan limits are what they are.  That is a fairly safe level of debt to incur for a student for an undergrad degree.  Banking on one career path and taking significantly more debt is rarely wise.  Both for parents credit ratings, retirement planning and reduces flexibility upon graduation.  We even sat in an info session at a college where someone in admissions at a well regarded school said if you can come here and stay under student loan limits, great.  Otherwise, I'd be looking at other options.  A lot of marketing and borrowing around the college industry is predatory IMO.  

I also know people working in areas that are allegedly shut out by not going to brand schools including working wall street etc.  Anyway, I'd love to see more college paths that were more affordable for people.  

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

46 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

The problem with the "on average" part is that there are such wild fluctuations. 

There are people who graduate college with no debt.  There are various reasons for that-parents paid for it, they got scholarships, or they worked their way though, whatever.  But $0 debt is floor.  There's nowhere else to go.  However.....there is no debt ceiling.  I have heard calls on the Dave Ramsey show where people have called in with half a million dollars in student loan debt.  Usually that's a couple, so that's the debt of two people.  But yeah, those aren't news stories trotting out one off....that's multiple people with 6 figure student loan debt..............and that's before car and house and furniture financing etc etc.

Now, to mention "no one is arguing that we should quit teaching our kids to drive because cars are so expensive" that's actually a different thing. No person needs to own a $30k car in order to know how to drive, or to have a car to drive.  Shoot, the three vehicles we own don't even total up to $10k.  

The difference is, is incredibly easy to find a vehicle for less than $30k.  Or even less than $10k.  However, it's not so easy to get a college degree for those prices.  In state tuition at my daughter's completely average school was just over $8k.  For a 4 year degree, presuming finish in 4, that's $32k a year.  Before books and fees and so on.  Now, SHE didn't pay that because she had a scholarship.  But if a kid doesn't have a scholarship or 6, and doesn't have a parent or other family member to pay, chances are that even if they do a community college for 2 yrs and transfer, they are still going to be paying close to $30k.  Whether that's through debt or through some other means.

And I personally think, and there are some studies that back this up, that the very heart of the *cost* of college is specifically, student loans.  Because loans are so easy to get, that's how lots of people pay for school.  So, because the school knows they don't have to worry about price as one of the primary factors in student choice anymore, they can raise the rates.  So the government increased the loans kids get.  The schools raise tuition, the students take out more loans, so the schools raise tuition again.  And round and round it goes.  Student loan debt isn't just crushing for the student with the debt........it's crushing everyone because everyone is paying more for college because of it.  

But policy, or what we preach to our children about the value of a college education, shouldn't be shaped by outliers.  No one is forced to take on $250K in student debt, and the example you cite, of going to CC for two years and then transferring to the state school, doesn't leave you anywhere close to $250K in debt for one undergraduate education.  But it IS an excellent example of how not everyone is driving a $34K car--this is, perhaps, the educational equivalent your $10K car.  You also are assuming the student doesn't earn a cent during her undergraduate years and that her family does not contribute a cent.  And it is a rare situation indeed in which both of those is true.  Almost no one is borrowing every cent of her living and educational expenses during college.  Graduate school?  Maybe, but if you can't get out of grad school without $250K in student loan debt that you can't repay, maybe you don't need to go to grad school.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, HeighHo said:

 

 

note: 200k for el ed isn't a bad buy depending on where you teach.  starting salary is high, pension is high in NY/NJ.  el ed pays the same as P.E. or high school physics.  That's going to be $1600 a month loan payments, with a salary in the low 60s and low health care costs (less than 3% of income).  Yep, they'll have rooomates and the leased car will not be huge but they also have a lot of part time job or self-employment potential.  Most preK12 teachers here will teach CC, which means they will also collect SS in addition to pension, but others do operate businesses using that knowledge and the connections they obtained at that private school where they had the loans. In the long run, it pays off better than regional state U for the two ladies I know that went that route in the last five years. It is pay to play, and having paid for those connections means more play which means earlier accumulation of wealth.

Really?  I calculated a 200k loan with a 5% interest rate over 10 years as a $2100 payment/month.  Your take home pay would not even be that much with a 65K salary.  I would personally feel like a failure as a parent if I launched my own young adult to a situation like that.  Even for someone heading to medical school or law school (I know so many law school grads not practicing law), I would think that level of debt could be severely life limiting for many years and maybe permanently.   Anyway, our society needs teachers and doctors and I think it's unreasonable to require that level of personal risk for those degrees.  

We do pay quite a bit for my son's college education.  There really is no other path for my kid to a 4 year degree without close 6 figures of debt given they look at our income/savings.  I know many middle class families right now helping their students so they can keep their young adult's debt level below that federal threshold.    I also know other families making very risky financial decisions to finance college for their kids.  

ETA - oh I was going to add, we are all absorbing the cost of default loans. These predatory lenders are still making their money. They just gouge everyone else a little more and those costs cascade from there.  I'd rather society just had a truly affordable path for everyone to go forward.  

Edited by FuzzyCatz
  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I wonder if this is the circles you run in. While DH & I both graduated with zero school loans (him military, me scholarships & working), I have relatives who are 10 yrs older & acquaintances who are 10-15 yrs younger who have $40-60k in loans each ($100k as a couple). The loans must have been bigger at some point. Some, but not all, of these are people with masters degrees.

The relatives are teachers & these particular relatives & their decisions are usually stupid, IMO. From what I heard, they'd paid down their debt to under $25k by the time their own kids started college. 

The acquaintances are in their 30s (early to mid) with kids. They are being sandwiched between growing kids & parents who are just barely starting to need more support (medically or otherwise). By the time college for their kids comes around, their debt is lower but still there & their parents are retired & needing more monetary help. 

A coworker of my dh's had a new car's worth of loans plus her parents had a small starter house worth of loans. She works at a warehousing job 5+ yrs after graduation.

Neighbors ended up with loans plus tuition on their credit card for a year of college that their DD didn't even finish. I think the total was $20k between the two funding methods. The DD wasn't crushed with loans at the time, but the burden is on more on parents now.

Twenty years ago, weren't most loans in the student's names? Anyone know when that changed?

  • Sad 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

We’ve had to have some talks with our kids that they have to choose a marketable major. Our son, should be struggle with the (extremely) difficult math requirements and weed out tactics at PSU would love to pursue a Philosophy Degree. We are not able to float that for him. So he knows he will have to cruise on over to the IST department If engineering doesn’t work out. It’s just a fact that we cannot afford to pay for his schooling or most of it up to the PhD level there. He could of course come home and pursue philosophy at our local stateU and if that were really his dream and path we’d support it. But only there where it’s less than 4K to attend full time. 
 

Meanwhile our daughter wishes to pursue Graphic Design. We have done our research and found there are a few programs within her Reach which Would be marketable degrees. So she is applying Gd to some schools and for probably English at others (which isn’t even as marketable as we’d like but more than GD, and those other schools are much much less expensive.) 

I Think people have to talk to their kids About reality and talk turkey about what parents are willing and able to support. And that should partly be based on whether the degree is marketable. 
 

We know at least five young adults with degrees from our local state U who cannot find a full time job. And these are actual friends, not friends Of friends. They churn out vast numbers of graduates but the school just doesn’t have the name, reputation, connections, support and alumni network. So if the degree is anything but STEM Or teaching the students are often jobless. Even for the graduates willing to teach they usually have to start in really bad schools and work their way up step by step. Start out at a school outside the area in the country, where kids literally light up in the classroom and parents and students alike have meth problems, and/or gang issues rampant...then come to a public school in the city, then work their way to where they really want to be which are the private schools. 
 

So you make choices. Sometimes the choice is graduate debt free and can’t find a job or graduate with 60- 100k of debt and have internships jobs and connections knocking at your door. 
 

i feel like not many of the choices are easy. So far to me it seems that  that the “Public Ivies” seem to be a good return on investment. Or the Little Ivies if you can get scholarships. For school teaching almost anywhere will do, as long as you put in the effort to network. But not everyone wants to be a school teacher. ....

 

Edited by Calming Tea
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The young pharmacist at my Rite Aid, myself and the Pharm tech were chatting the other day and the pharmacist said she had 300K worth of debt upon graduation.  I said, "Do you feel it's worth it, I know being a pharmacist pays well" and she said "No are you kidding?  My debt is a burden.  It's like 1500 per month, and if I had gone to a state school I would have less than half that debt and the same job.  Rite Aid hires pharmacists from Ivy League or UC, it doesn't matter."

I felt very sad for her.

Edited by Calming Tea
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, Calming Tea said:

We’ve had to have some talks with our kids that they have to choose a marketable major. Our son, should be struggle with the (extremely) difficult math requirements and weed out tactics at PSU would love to pursue a Philosophy Degree. We are not able to float that for him. So he knows he will have to cruise on over to the IST department If engineering doesn’t work out. It’s just a fact that we cannot afford to pay for his schooling or most of it up to the PhD level there. He could of course come home and pursue philosophy at our local stateU and if that were really his dream and path we’d support it. But only there where it’s less than 4K to attend full time. 
 

Meanwhile our daughter wishes to pursue Graphic Design. We have done our research and found there are a few programs within her Reach which Would be marketable degrees. So she is applying Gd to some schools and for probably English at others (which isn’t even as marketable as we’d like but more than GD, and those other schools are much much less expensive.) 

I Think people have to talk to their kids About reality and talk turkey about what parents are willing and able to support. And that should partly be based on whether the degree is marketable. 
 

We know at least five young adults with degrees from our local state U who cannot find a full time job. And these are actual friends, not friends Of friends. They churn out vast numbers of graduates but the school just doesn’t have the name, reputation, connections, support and alumni network. So if the degree is anything but STEM Or teaching the students are often jobless. Even for the graduates willing to teach they usually have to start in really bad schools and work their way up step by step. Start out at a school outside the area in the country, where kids literally light up in the classroom and ether are meth and gang issues rampant...then come to a public school in the city, then work their way to where they really want to be which are the private schools. 
 

So you make choices. Sometimes the choice is graduate debt free and can’t find a job or graduate with 60- 100k of debt and have internships jobs and connections knocking at your door. 
 

i feel like not many of the choices are easy. So far to me it seems that  that the “Public Ivies” seem to be a good return on investment. Or the Little Ivies if you can get scholarships. For school teaching almost anywhere will do, as long as you put in the effort to network. But not everyone wants to be a school teacher. ....

 

This honestly doesn't reflect reality where we are located at all.  I'm not saying if you graduate from a well regarded flagship or  college, you might not be differently employed or pursuing grad school or whatever.  But I certainly know people from directional state schools who have done very well and work among them and have gone on to grad school.  So maybe there are some regional differences.

I do think when it comes to college students, a fair number of them, and not just at lesser schools are not really mature enough to be there.  They don't jump in and make connections and push for unique experiences and opportunities.  I just read a blurb about a young woman with 200K debt who graduated from an ivy league school (Columbia or Cornell I think) and was working retail with an undergrad degree in psych.  My kid worked with a late 20's top 20 grad last summer who was definitely not doing anything to justify a high debt level.  Graduating from a prestigious school is really not a guarantee of anything either.  

I do think parents have an obligation to guide young adults toward fiscally responsible decisions.  That level of debt can truly be life limiting for many many years.  I hear many more people saying they regret that level of debt than were glad they took it once you hit like 30K+ and that goes for any school..  

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here there are two different state schools, the UCs and the CalStates. The UCs require much higher admission stAndards and are respected and well regarded. With the exception of some programs the CalStates have admission averages of 2.0 high school GPA and 900 SAT score. They take hundreds of thousands of students and aside from STEM here where we live the other jobs have more applicants than spaces available. So when I say state school I don’t mean your flagship state U I mean the run of the mill state colleges which take everyone. 
 

I don’t know what the solution or answer is, my point is that none of our Choices  are Easy especially outside of STEM

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, Calming Tea said:

Here there are two different state schools, the UCs and the CalStates. The UCs require much higher admission stAndards and are respected and well regarded. With the exception of some programs the CalStates have admission averages of 2.0 high school GPA and 900 SAT score. They take hundreds of thousands of students and aside from STEM here where we live the other jobs have more applicants than spaces available. So when I say state school I don’t mean your flagship state U I mean the run of the mill state colleges which take everyone. 
 

I don’t know what the solution or answer is, my point is that none of our Choices  are Easy especially outside of STEM

The 2 flagships we have access to are both on the public ivy list.  I'm talking about our midwestern directional state schools that you've probably never heard of if you live outside the upper midwest.   Most are in range of ACT 21-28 (SAT 1050-1340).   If you have scores lower than that it's CC or maybe one of a handful of Christian colleges no one has ever heard of if you want to go to college.  Anyway, I've seen many highly successful students out of these types of schools.  And some higher stat students that got unique opportunities at these schools by being ambitious including launching to more prestigious institutions for grad school.  Faculty positions are highly competitive these days.  My kid had access to amazing faculty at an urban community college dual enrolling.

There can be lots of reasons a student might get a 900 on the SAT and it may not reflect ability.  However, I don't think putting your average ACT 900/2.0 student at a college with a better name is going to really help them.  Because it's at least somewhat likely they aren't actually college ready, they may have an undiagnosed LD, they may not be motivated, they may have anxiety, etc.  I guess it's not too surprising to me that if that's the average student, that they aren't super successful after graduation if they don't do a 180 while enrolled.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, FuzzyCatz said:

The 2 flagships we have access to are both on the public ivy list.  I'm talking about our midwestern directional state schools that you've probably never heard of if you live outside the upper midwest.   Most are in range of ACT 21-28 (SAT 1050-1340).   If you have scores lower than that it's CC or maybe one of a handful of Christian colleges no one has ever heard of if you want to go to college.  Anyway, I've seen many highly successful students out of these types of schools.  And some higher stat students that got unique opportunities at these schools by being ambitious including launching to more prestigious institutions for grad school.  Faculty positions are highly competitive these days.  My kid had access to amazing faculty at an urban community college dual enrolling.

There can be lots of reasons a student might get a 900 on the SAT and it may not reflect ability.  However, I don't think putting your average ACT 900/2.0 student at a college with a better name is going to really help them.  Because it's at least somewhat likely they aren't actually college ready, they may have an undiagnosed LD, they may not be motivated, they may have anxiety, etc.  I guess it's not too surprising to me that if that's the average student, that they aren't super successful after graduation if they don't do a 180 while enrolled.

 

Agree...and good thoughts....Then that goes back to our many other posts here about the fact that pushing college for everyone has not been a smart move for our country, and is getting to be an even worse move as prices continue to skyrocket.  If you aren't within driving distance of a CalState, you are still paying 120k for your education. (since it takes an average of 6 years to graduate now, due to impaction/overcrowding)  ...Wouldn't so many of these students be better off in a trade or certificate program?  What are we all doing as a country and as parents? 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...