"The Game Changers" veganism documentary and also your experience

[Teaching3bears]

Has anyone seen this?  I just watched half and I it did a good job of convincing me that veganism is amazing for health.  I wonder, though, why there is no middle ground.  Why do so many people become 100% vegan?  Why not become vegan and eat a bit of dairy, meat, fish and eggs every week to get the particular benefits of those foods.  Will you not reduce inflammation by changing to a "mostly" plant-based diet?

What has your experience with veganism vs. a high-meat diet been?

[Liz CA]

If you feel your body would benefit from less meat or dairy, then a "middle of the road" plan should be better than no change at all. I think there is an "all or nothing" mentality in many such things and when it comes to diet and nutrition, it seems even more of a dogmatic approach.

ETA: I go for some days without any meat but I usually have eggs or cheese. I don't seem to digest beef very well so I stay away from it most of the time. I still eat fish and dairy so I am certainly not a vegetarian. I feel best with lots of veggies and a few eggs, chicken or fish

Edited December 30, 2019 by Liz CA

[Katy]

4 minutes ago, Teaching3bears said:

Has anyone seen this?  I just watched half and I it did a good job of convincing me that veganism is amazing for health.  I wonder, though, why there is no middle ground.  Why do so many people become 100% vegan?  Why not become vegan and eat a bit of dairy, meat, fish and eggs every week to get the particular benefits of those foods.  Will you not reduce inflammation by changing to a "mostly" plant-based diet?

What has your experience with veganism vs. a high-meat diet been?

 

I think there is no middle ground because for many people it's both a religion and an identity.  They are better, smarter, wiser, and kinder than everyone else.

But you're right, the science isn't there for 100% veganism.  Dr Michael Gregor, who pushes a whole food plant based diet has a video on YouTube discussing the fact that vegans don't live longer, they just die of neurological diseases rather than heart disease.  If given the choice I'd take the heart attack.  But rather than encouraging moderation or 95% vegan he's hoping that B12 & Omega 3 fatty acid supplements will solve the issues and enable him to live longer.

IME many vegans, or even vegetarians love it until they start to experience health and autoimmune issues.  There's another doctor (Stephen Gundry, MD, a cardiologist I think) who says the best diet is plant based but lectin free to avoid the autoimmune triggers, but at that point it's SO RESTRICTIVE you'd have to be dying to try it I suspect.  His book is called the Plant Paradox, and he thinks restricting lectins is more important than restricting animal foods, but gluten free lectin free vegan keto is the best thing to eat.  It's basically limited plant based pressure cooked foods, veggies, weird expensive oils and avocados.  Sigh.

[Katy]

2 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

Yes, if you do go vegan you must supplement with B12. 

Some vegans who have ended up with health problems choose to supplement their diets with wild caught fish from sustainable species, as the most ethical of all flesh protein. I think there was a YouTuber dd watched who also ended up eating eggs from her own free range chickens. 

 

Several of the vegan YouTubers one of mine watch have left veganism entirely due to health problems.  It probably didn't help that most of them started veganism with a fruitarian diet, rather than a balanced vegan one.

Yes, I have a friend who is a veterinarian who eats pastured chickens & eggs, certain fish, but refuses all red meat except a rare buffalo steak from a certain farm she's worked at where the buffalo free range and the herd is selectively & ethically thinned.

[Selkie]

9 minutes ago, Katy said:

 

I think there is no middle ground because for many people it's both a religion and an identity.  They are better, smarter, wiser, and kinder than everyone else.

But you're right, the science isn't there for 100% veganism.  Dr Michael Gregor, who pushes a whole food plant based diet has a video on YouTube discussing the fact that vegans don't live longer, they just die of neurological diseases rather than heart disease.  If given the choice I'd take the heart attack.  But rather than encouraging moderation or 95% vegan he's hoping that B12 & Omega 3 fatty acid supplements will solve the issues and enable him to live longer.

IME many vegans, or even vegetarians love it until they start to experience health and autoimmune issues.  There's another doctor (Stephen Gundry, MD, a cardiologist I think) who says the best diet is plant based but lectin free to avoid the autoimmune triggers, but at that point it's SO RESTRICTIVE you'd have to be dying to try it I suspect.  His book is called the Plant Paradox, and he thinks restricting lectins is more important than restricting animal foods, but gluten free lectin free vegan keto is the best thing to eat.  It's basically limited plant based pressure cooked foods, veggies, weird expensive oils and avocados.  Sigh.

Do you have a link for the Dr. Gregor video? I don’t remember him saying anything like that in his book How Not to Die. IIRC, he references a number of studies showing that consumption of animal products is linked to higher rates of neurological disease. So I’d be interested in seeing the video. Thanks!

[Katy]

17 minutes ago, Selkie said:

Do you have a link for the Dr. Gregor video? I don’t remember him saying anything like that in his book How Not to Die. IIRC, he references a number of studies showing that consumption of animal products is linked to higher rates of neurological disease. So I’d be interested in seeing the video. Thanks!

 

A quick search doesn't find the original video, there is a live version where he's speaking at some kind of vegan conference, but the audio is posted here on the 80/10/10 channel.  I will note I do not recommend the 80/10/10 diet, it caused health issues in multiple female youtubers when it was popular several years back. 

I'm deleting this link because I found the full video version & posted it below.

Edited December 30, 2019 by Katy

[Katy]

I just found the full video.  I'm going to delete the linked one above because I hate the editing.

 

 

[MercyA]

I wish I could be 100% vegan. I *do* think it is kinder and more moral and more ethical. Everyone finds their identity in something. Certainly there are worse identities than being pro-kindness, anti-violence, pro-earth. 

I was vegan except for eggs for a couple years. My DH says I wasn't totally mentally well and I smelled odd. 🙂Sort of like how I smelled when I was on birth control pills early in our marriage. He was supportive, though.

Unfortunately in recent years I've found I become anemic on a vegan diet. I have endometriosis and lose a lot of blood every month. Iron supplements don't seem to be adequate for me. 

What is the saying? Don't let the perfect become the enemy of the good? If I can reduce my consumption of animal products, that is good for the earth, good for the animals, and good for me. If you have the inclination, go for it. 

Edited December 30, 2019 by MercyA

[Laura Corin]

3 hours ago, Teaching3bears said:

Has anyone seen this?  I just watched half and I it did a good job of convincing me that veganism is amazing for health.  I wonder, though, why there is no middle ground.  Why do so many people become 100% vegan?  Why not become vegan and eat a bit of dairy, meat, fish and eggs every week to get the particular benefits of those foods.  Will you not reduce inflammation by changing to a "mostly" plant-based diet?

What has your experience with veganism vs. a high-meat diet been?

I think that a lot of people find extreme regimes easier - it reduces the minute by minute decision making.

Many people advocate a Mediterranean style diet, which is roughly your middle ground. I tend to cook from cook books by Yotam Ottolenghi (Italian Israeli background) and Dr Rupy Aujla (Indian British background). Their recipes tend to start from plants but may add in animal products sometimes.

Edited December 30, 2019 by Laura Corin

[Pawz4me]

7 hours ago, Liz CA said:

I think there is an "all or nothing" mentality in many such things and when it comes to diet and nutrition, it seems even more of a dogmatic approach.

 

Agreed. I don't know what it is about our culture nowadays that makes all-or-nothing so appealing to so many on so very many things. Or maybe it's always been that way? I do think it relates somehow to identity or tribalism. Or something. I personally find it very off-putting, but obviously others feel differently (and that's certainly okay).

I've been a "mostly vegetarian" for over thirty years. My motivation is simple--when losing weight decades ago and really, really concentrating on figuring out what foods I truly liked and made me feel good, I realized that I don't really like meat very much at all and that eating much of it makes me feel less than optimal. I've never had any desire to go full vegan. I think I'm much too lazy for that. 😉 I do have autoimmune issues (Hashi's and RA). But I'm one of those not-all-that-uncommon people with RA whose inflammatory markers are always quite low. My rheumy totally credits my diet for that, but he's perhaps biased because he recommends a Mediterranean type, mostly vegetarian diet for all his patients (which is exactly how I eat). Whether he's right or whether my low inflammation is due to genetics or something else--who knows?

Edited December 30, 2019 by Pawz4me

[Carrie12345]

I loved the documentary, and I’m an omnivore with no intention of going vegan. (But I love reading and watching plenty of things I have no intentions of following.)

I just don’t believe in absolutes for anything... except maybe heroin. Though I understand how some people get to that, too.

I do believe in reducing animal product consumption for many reasons, some of which were touched on. If going 100% without makes some people feel good, I feel good for them!  I have no room to get preachy, because I don’t even meet my own nutritional goals. Sometimes I try real hard, and sometimes I just want a Sprite with my cheeseburger, knowing it isn’t the ideal choice.  

There’s a giant mashup of nutrition, ethics, (contradicting) science, and identity to food that intrigues me on one level (which is why I watched,) but mostly just seems *almost irrelevant to making life “better”.

*Almost - I have issues with factory farming, whether animal or vegetable; politically, economically, socially, and environmentally.  But I don’t meet my own standards on that, either.

[ktgrok]

Ethically I can see being 100 percent vegan. (and I was for a few years). But health wise, no. 

 

[madteaparty]

I haven’t and won’t watch it but my sister and BIL did and now they’re vegan. Food is a pleasure, if I had to eat one more quinoa bowl I’d welcome death with open arms. 😂

philosophically I find it hilarious that in this country we have these insane extremes: packaged non food that most people eat that makes me steel myself for the grocery store check out line and...vegans. 
My family is ambivalent about their reasons. They say it’s for health, which is a claim I don’t buy, and also bc factory meat farmed near low income neighborhoods and those are people that can’t choose to pick up and leave. I offered that my prime rib didn’t come from such farm but no takers 🤷‍♀️
I will say it was fun trying to find ways to make delicious vegan food that wasn’t quinoa 😉 I had fun with spices I don’t normally use etc. 

Edited December 30, 2019 by madteaparty

[Selkie]

7 hours ago, Katy said:

I just found the full video.  I'm going to delete the linked one above because I hate the editing.

 

 

Interesting! Looks like between the time the video was filmed (2003) and How Not to Die was published (2015), he got his hands on some research showing otherwise. There is a chapter in his book entitled How Not to Die From Brain Diseases. He discusses research showing that heart health and brain health are inextricably linked, and consumption of animal products leads to higher rates of both heart and brain disease.  

This same topic is also discussed in another book I just read, The Alzheimer's Solution by Dean & Ayesha Sherzai, MD. Both Dr. Greger and the Sherzais recommend a whole food plant based diet for optimum health, including brain health. 

Thanks for finding the video for me!

[Soror]

This documentary like pretty much every other food doco. (whether keto, veg*n, juicing, or anything else) has a bit of truth and a lot of bias. 

I'd not base my diet decisions on any food documentary. I do believe we all need to eat more produce, hands down. I think there is a health value to eating less meat and I have reduced my consumption but my attempts at veg and vegan haven't left me feeling the best. I tried a strict plant based whole foods diet for a month, felt good at first but then sluggish and then not so great as it raised my blood sugar. Likewise, I do not feel good on a super low carb diet and am not a fan of them. At this point, I aim to eat a whole foods diet, with lots of produce, and plenty of protein- this is how I feel best.

If you want to see a different POV here is an article to check out--https://tacticmethod.com/the-game-changers-scientific-review-and-references/

[Scarlett]

9 hours ago, StellaM said:

We're a vegan/vegetarian family - I'm leaning closer and closer to veganism, not sure if I'll get there, but we do not really eat meat anymore, and I'm currently trying to cut down dairy also. So - I am vegan/veggie friendly - made my dd's vegan Xmas dinner and dessert, after all 🙂

MOST vegan documentaries that my dd has shown me make some seriously unevidenced claims. Lots of woo, use of out of date studies and stats. From what I can glean, the actual health benefits come from 1. reduction in red meats and processed meats and 2. increase in fruits and vegies in diet. So, if I wanted to improve my health through diet, and I was medically OK to make changes, I would cut down red meat, avoid processed meats and eat more fruit and veg.  I wouldn't neccessarily go full vegan as a first step. 

I think there are stronger ethical claims to veganism, than health claims. Especially as the vegan food market explodes - you can eat some seriously unhealthy vegan food.

I hope nobody wants to argue with me about my opinion; it's just mine, not Truth. (And trust me, I've had the arguments with my dd - our worst ever argument was about eggs, lol)

I agree with you 100%. 

[StaceyinLA]

Veganism didn’t work for us, and I felt, at the time, like a lot of vegan products were processed junk (vegan “butter” for instance). We had been on the “as close to the natural state as possible” thing for years, and I had avoided stuff like margarine, but there I was eating some processed oil product in place of real cream butter. It just didn’t seem right to me at the time. In addition, I was fearful of the deficiencies. It turns out my mom’s oncologist told us that if you lose any mental capacity from B12 deficiency, you cannot get it back. I realize you can take B12, but I just don’t know if it’s the same. I also felt like we were overusing soy, which has its own issues. I would definitely do things differently if I were vegan today, but I still don’t think that particular diet/lifestyle is what makes me FEEL best.

I am VERY against factory farming. We buy our meat from local, ethical sources. We have meatless meals. I avoid a lot of dairy (honestly, dairy animals typically have it the worst, so the dairy I do buy is always from ethical farms/practices). I honestly try to eat Whole 30-ish a lot of the time, but make the meat more of a side and not the main focus. I eat a lot of healthy fats like avocado/nuts. I do add things like lentils and beans, quinoa, etc., when I’m not actively doing a Whole 30. I find if I add bread back in, I’ll start eating it at every meal, so I DO try to limit that. (That’s where I am right now though, which is why I’m starting Whole 30 next week).

I think with diet you just have to figure out what makes you FEEL the best. For me, honestly, it’s eating a slightly modified Whole 30. However, I realize that’s likely because I’m ditching the garbage. I do feel better doing clean meats than I do when I avoid meat and incorporate more soy or other things that substitute for meat.

I definitely tend to work best with a “rule book,” when it comes to food, so I can see how others would find it easier to just be vegan than vegan with options. 

Edited December 30, 2019 by StaceyinLA

[Quercus]

My brother is vegan and we agree about food issues right up until we have to decide what to do about it.

One thing he's said is that people will be forced to change the way they eat if the current food system collapses (a big if), meaning they'd have to eat less meat anyway. We agree on this. Almost everyone I know really should eat a lot less meat, for both health and ethical reasons. But he doesn't seem to understand that his diet would have to radically change in such a scenario also. Bananas, oranges, and the like don't grow in the frozen north. 

We have livestock (he doesn't) and he thinks that people can just stop eating meat tomorrow and all these cows and pigs will just go back to the land and live out natural lives with relatively no problems. He's very wrong about that. 

His wife and kids are all vegan too, but they eat more sugar each week than my family combined eats in a year or two. He maintains that it's healthier to eat fruit loops than bread with butter on it, or a couple eggs from fifty feet outside my back door. Also, one of his favorite sayings is that vodka is vegan, and he definitely takes advantage of that. 

My ideal would be eating locally, avoiding cafo products. His ideal would be everyone is vegan and pulling nutrients from around the globe. 

The documentary, like my brother, is factually correct in a lot of what is said. But I think they both have blinders on. 

I find that everyone knows what they ought to do (eat more kale than fruit loops; eat more kale than bacon) but they just don't want to, so they dig their heels in over hypothetical scenarios. 

[StaceyinLA]

4 minutes ago, Quercus said:

My brother is vegan and we agree about food issues right up until we have to decide what to do about it.

One thing he's said is that people will be forced to change the way they eat if the current food system collapses (a big if), meaning they'd have to eat less meat anyway. We agree on this. Almost everyone I know really should eat a lot less meat, for both health and ethical reasons. But he doesn't seem to understand that his diet would have to radically change in such a scenario also. Bananas, oranges, and the like don't grow in the frozen north. 

We have livestock (he doesn't) and he thinks that people can just stop eating meat tomorrow and all these cows and pigs will just go back to the land and live out natural lives with relatively no problems. He's very wrong about that. 

His wife and kids are all vegan too, but they eat more sugar each week than my family combined eats in a year or two. He maintains that it's healthier to eat fruit loops than bread with butter on it, or a couple eggs from fifty feet outside my back door. Also, one of his favorite sayings is that vodka is vegan, and he definitely takes advantage of that. 

My ideal would be eating locally, avoiding cafo products. His ideal would be everyone is vegan and pulling nutrients from around the globe. 

The documentary, like my brother, is factually correct in a lot of what is said. But I think they both have blinders on. 

I find that everyone knows what they ought to do (eat more kale than fruit loops; eat more kale than bacon) but they just don't want to, so they dig their heels in over hypothetical scenarios. 

 

It’s funny you mention the sugar. I have a friend that has been vegan for 8-9 years. She consumes more sugar in a day (in various forms) than I eat in a month for sure. If I had to pick ONE thing everyone likely needs to eliminate from their diet, that would be it. I don’t think we are even touching the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the ways in which a diet high in sugar affects our health.

Edited December 30, 2019 by StaceyinLA

[Selkie]

Re. B12, I just recently read about a study showing that large numbers of Americans are B12 deficient, including those who consume animal products. 

https://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/news/20030618/vegetarian-diet-b12-deficiency#1

From the article:

Even young, healthy, vitamin-taking meat-eaters may not be getting enough B12, according to Tufts University nutritionist Katherine Tucker, PhD. 

In a study published three years ago, also in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, she found that nearly 40% of 3,000 adults under age 50 had bloodlevels of vitamin B12 low enough to cause problems. 

"There really seem to be a lot of absorption problems, even in younger people. One theory is the increased use of antacids may be blocking the absorption of B12."

[73349]

I intend to watch the documentary, but haven't yet.

For environmental reasons, we are doing "mostly plants." One of my plans for the new year is to do the reverse of meatless Mondays: meat (usually poultry) only on Mondays. And I feel better without dairy. But we already have to be strictly gluten-free and avoid food coloring, choose to exclude alcohol, and presently skip anything crunchy such as raw carrots (DS has braces). But going entirely vegan on top of all that is too much work for me, when we already can't do so much (including restaurants, with rare exceptions); and DS and I are already at the very bottom of the healthy weight ranges for our heights. So I'm keeping the local eggs from pasture-raised hens.

[Quercus]

2 minutes ago, StaceyinLA said:

 

 

I agree.

 

5 minutes ago, Selkie said:

Re. B12, I just recently read about a study showing that large numbers of Americans are B12 deficient, including those who consume animal products. 

 

 

Grassfed meat and milk products have more b12 than conventional meat. Same with eggs from chickens who can forage for bugs. But most people I know aren't eating a lot of real, homemade food from any source. So it's moot that they are vegan or not, if everything they eat comes from a fast food place or a box.  

[Selkie]

For anyone interested in reading about the science behind whole food plant based eating, I would recommend the following books:

The China Study: The Most Comprehensive Study of Nutrition Ever Conducted - by T. Colin Campbell, PhD and Thomas M. Campbell II, MD

https://smile.amazon.com/China-Study-Comprehensive-Nutrition-Implications/dp/1941631568/ref=sr_1_3?keywords=the+china+study&qid=1577722566&sr=8-3

Prevent and Reverse Heart Disease: The Revolutionary, Scientifically Proven, Nutrition-Based Cure - by Caldwell Esselstyn, Jr., MD

https://smile.amazon.com/Prevent-Reverse-Heart-Disease-Nutrition-Based/dp/1583333002/ref=sr_1_3?crid=7VSVX3BFJSK8&keywords=prevent+and+reverse+heart+disease&qid=1577722719&sprefix=prevent+and+reverse%2Caps%2C784&sr=8-3

The Alzheimer's Solution: A Breakthrough Program to Prevent and Reverse the Symptoms of Cognitive Decline at Every Age - by Dean and Ayesha Sherzai, MD

https://smile.amazon.com/Alzheimers-Solution-Breakthrough-Symptoms-Cognitive/dp/0062666487/ref=sr_1_2?crid=2OYGR35DTL1CX&keywords=the+alzheimers+solution&qid=1577722792&sprefix=the+alzheimers+sol%2Caps%2C793&sr=8-2

How Not to Die - by Michael Greger, MD

https://smile.amazon.com/How-Not-Die-Discover-Scientifically/dp/1250066115/ref=sr_1_2?keywords=how+not+to+die&qid=1577722838&sr=8-2

What the Health: The Startling Truth Behind the Foods We Eat - by Kip Andersen and Keegan Kuhn

https://smile.amazon.com/What-Health-Startling-Plant-Rich-Recipes/dp/1946885525/ref=sr_1_3?keywords=what+the+health&qid=1577722924&sr=8-3

[Katy]

1 hour ago, Quercus said:

My brother is vegan and we agree about food issues right up until we have to decide what to do about it.

One thing he's said is that people will be forced to change the way they eat if the current food system collapses (a big if), meaning they'd have to eat less meat anyway. We agree on this. Almost everyone I know really should eat a lot less meat, for both health and ethical reasons. But he doesn't seem to understand that his diet would have to radically change in such a scenario also. Bananas, oranges, and the like don't grow in the frozen north. 

We have livestock (he doesn't) and he thinks that people can just stop eating meat tomorrow and all these cows and pigs will just go back to the land and live out natural lives with relatively no problems. He's very wrong about that. 

His wife and kids are all vegan too, but they eat more sugar each week than my family combined eats in a year or two. He maintains that it's healthier to eat fruit loops than bread with butter on it, or a couple eggs from fifty feet outside my back door. Also, one of his favorite sayings is that vodka is vegan, and he definitely takes advantage of that. 

My ideal would be eating locally, avoiding cafo products. His ideal would be everyone is vegan and pulling nutrients from around the globe. 

The documentary, like my brother, is factually correct in a lot of what is said. But I think they both have blinders on. 

I find that everyone knows what they ought to do (eat more kale than fruit loops; eat more kale than bacon) but they just don't want to, so they dig their heels in over hypothetical scenarios. 

 

Interesting debate.  Maybe 10 years back I watched this youtube channel & read the blog of a vegan guy who wanted to go back to the land.  He was sure the economy was about to collapse and wanted to live as locally, off the grid, and ethically as he could.  I think he lived someplace like Michigan, but I don't remember.  After a couple of months of living in a teepee in the winter he couldn't hack the diet any more.  He needed meat, so he started hunting deer.  Then he stopped posting.  I lost track of the blog and don't know who he was or what happened to him.

I am always suspicious of people eating venison without testing it in the areas where prion diseases are endemic. 

[EKS]

11 hours ago, Teaching3bears said:

Why do so many people become 100% vegan?

Because by definition, you're not vegan if you eat animal products.

[Quercus]

1 hour ago, Katy said:

I am always suspicious of people eating venison without testing it in the areas where prion diseases are endemic. 

 

Wild meat can be really sketchy!

[Katy]

43 minutes ago, Quercus said:

 

Wild meat can be really sketchy!

 

Right?  I don't see how that's more ethical than humanely farmed meat.  It's like arguing you should drink "wild water" because it's better for your immune system.  Sure it is, except when it kills you.  SMH.  People are stupid.

[ktgrok]

4 hours ago, soror said:

This documentary like pretty much every other food doco. (whether keto, veg*n, juicing, or anything else) has a bit of truth and a lot of bias. 

I'd not base my diet decisions on any food documentary. I do believe we all need to eat more produce, hands down. I think there is a health value to eating less meat and I have reduced my consumption but my attempts at veg and vegan haven't left me feeling the best. I tried a strict plant based whole foods diet for a month, felt good at first but then sluggish and then not so great as it raised my blood sugar. Likewise, I do not feel good on a super low carb diet and am not a fan of them. At this point, I aim to eat a whole foods diet, with lots of produce, and plenty of protein- this is how I feel best.

If you want to see a different POV here is an article to check out--https://tacticmethod.com/the-game-changers-scientific-review-and-references/

Truth. 

4 hours ago, StaceyinLA said:

 

It’s funny you mention the sugar. I have a friend that has been vegan for 8-9 years. She consumes more sugar in a day (in various forms) than I eat in a month for sure. If I had to pick ONE thing everyone likely needs to eliminate from their diet, that would be it. I don’t think we are even touching the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the ways in which a diet high in sugar affects our health.

I agree. I think it is the number one thing that is causing so many health problems. And it is so HIGHLY addictive, and in EVERYTHING. i mean, I have bought canned diced tomatoes that turned out to have sugar in them!

A lot of the studies you see fail to include the parameter. For instance, the China study - yes, the healthier places had less meat (sort of...there were outliers) but also less sugar! The diets that seem healthiest all over the world are very very low in refined sugar - namely fructose. Some eat a lot of meat, some eat a lot of plants, but none eat a lot of fructose. And yet each side will point to the meat or the grains rather than the sugar factor. 

2 hours ago, Katy said:

 

Interesting debate.  Maybe 10 years back I watched this youtube channel & read the blog of a vegan guy who wanted to go back to the land.  He was sure the economy was about to collapse and wanted to live as locally, off the grid, and ethically as he could.  I think he lived someplace like Michigan, but I don't remember.  After a couple of months of living in a teepee in the winter he couldn't hack the diet any more.  He needed meat, so he started hunting deer.  Then he stopped posting.  I lost track of the blog and don't know who he was or what happened to him.

I am always suspicious of people eating venison without testing it in the areas where prion diseases are endemic. 

This. There is a lot of evidence that what helped us become human, with big brains, is meat. Specifically cooking meat. If you drop someone in the middle of the wilderness there are not many places where they can survive without animal products. Farming, sure, but just gathering, with no hunting, not really. 

3 minutes ago, Katy said:

 

Right?  I don't see how that's more ethical than humanely farmed meat.  It's like arguing you should drink "wild water" because it's better for your immune system.  Sure it is, except when it kills you.  SMH.  People are stupid.

Well, ethically the argument is it lives out its natural life until that very last second. Truly ethical farmed meat is hard to find - most of the animals in a farmed system will have had more stress or diet issues, etc. Not all, but most. And cost wise, hunting is cheaper than truly ethical free range/grassfed meat usually. 

[Laura Corin]

I lived in China three years after the period of the China study. The people around me were thin, weak and hungry. My students didn't have the energy to play a game of basketball at the end of the day. It's not a model of health that most of us would wish to emulate. I used to buy oil beyond the ration for Chinese friends so that they could provide enough calories for their children.

The evidence for eating mostly plants in good quantities is strong; I'm just doubtful about whether the China study is a good model for eating, given the low calorie availability at that time. After all, calorie restriction also seems to prolong life.

Edited December 30, 2019 by Laura Corin

[KungFuPanda]

Wait, how can one person eat more sugar in a DAY than another eats in a week or a year?  What on earth does that one day look like? 

Sometimes I think these extreme diets say more about personality types than health fads.  People with obsessive/addictive personalities can go all in with just about anything.

[Bluegoat]

I believe the China study has been pretty thoroughly debunked.  As have a lot of these kinds of food docs, Forks Over Knives, etc. They tend to extrapolate too much, cherry pick etc.  Even manipulate language as for example using "plant based" for the study then advocating veganism which is a whole different kettle of fish.

I think people latch onto veganism because we have a psychological propensity to try and purify ourselves through diet, like the Manichaeans.  I realise this sounds a bit cracked but it's the best behaviour explanation I've come up with that explains what people do and say.

I think the reality is that humans are adapted to a wide variety of diets, not all the same diet, as fairly northern people my ancestors are adapted to eat dairy products. My friend lives in a town of very northern people who are adapted to eat almost all meat.  No one is adapted to the amount of sugar or lab processed foods we eat now though.  

My goals are to try and eat in a way that would be sustainable where I live, and to reject all factory farming including of plants. I have to do this within my budget and without making myself crazy, so a lot of the time it looks like a whole food diet without too much prepared food.  

[StaceyinLA]

43 minutes ago, KungFuPanda said:

Wait, how can one person eat more sugar in a DAY than another eats in a week or a year?  What on earth does that one day look like? 

Sometimes I think these extreme diets say more about personality types than health fads.  People with obsessive/addictive personalities can go all in with just about anything.

 

When almost every component of every meal includes some type of sugar, even if just a lot of sweet fruit, muffins, other breads/grains, pastas, etc. I just don’t typically have much sugar in a day at all. When I’m doing the best with my eating, I may eat a piece of fruit or a few berries daily, or even a sweet potato, but nothing else I cook or eat has sugar in it nor added to it.

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, Laura Corin said:

I lived in China three years after the period of the China study. The people around me were thin, weak and hungry. My students didn't have the energy to play a game of basketball at the end of the day. It's not a model of health that most of us would wish to emulate. I used to buy oil beyond the ration for Chinese friends so that they could provide enough calories for their children.

The evidence for eating mostly plants in good quantities is strong; I'm just doubtful about whether the China study is a good model for eating, given the low calorie availability at that time. After all, calorie restriction also seems to prolong life.

Yeah, there are just too many factors they didn't control for. 

Same with the ones that looked at war time rationing of meat to explain better health - they neglect to mention sugar being rationed as well. 

And as for health, I have known so many vegans that are pale, circles under their eyes, limp hair, etc. Even some celebrities that go vegan, with the power to buy whatever supplements they need, often look less healthy to me. Not always, obviously. But I lost respect for the movement when I realized I'd fallen for so many half truths during my time as a vegan. I was SURE they were right and we were naturally herbivores. And yet, the earliest humans were not, and those early humans were hunter gatherers, not just gatherers. Somehow the propaganda seemed to skip from leaf eating primates in trees to farmers eating beans, and ignored the pre-agriculture humans entirely. 

[ktgrok]

48 minutes ago, KungFuPanda said:

Wait, how can one person eat more sugar in a DAY than another eats in a week or a year?  What on earth does that one day look like? 

Sometimes I think these extreme diets say more about personality types than health fads.  People with obsessive/addictive personalities can go all in with just about anything.

A kid eating the typical breakfast served at public schools eats the daily allotment in one meal. There is SO much added sugar in everything. The "healthy" granola at Trader Joes has more sugar in it than the ice cream! And then all the low fat yogurt with tons of sugar in it, etc. Add in a couple sodas, and maybe a starbucks pumpkin spice latte and yeah, you've got an ENORMOUS amount of sugar. 

One granda starbucks drink has more sugar than I get in a day when I'm eating right. And that's one drink. 

[Quercus]

33 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

all factory farming including of plants

 

There is a human cost here too, for the workers.

[Bluegoat]

Quote

Same with the ones that looked at war time rationing of meat to explain better health - they neglect to mention sugar being rationed as well. 

 

And it also ignored that some of the populations they looked at increased their fish intake considerably.  Fish aren't exactly plants.

[Teaching3bears]

12 hours ago, Selkie said:

Re. B12, I just recently read about a study showing that large numbers of Americans are B12 deficient, including those who consume animal products. 

https://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/news/20030618/vegetarian-diet-b12-deficiency#1

From the article:

Even young, healthy, vitamin-taking meat-eaters may not be getting enough B12, according to Tufts University nutritionist Katherine Tucker, PhD. 

In a study published three years ago, also in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, she found that nearly 40% of 3,000 adults under age 50 had bloodlevels of vitamin B12 low enough to cause problems. 

"There really seem to be a lot of absorption problems, even in younger people. One theory is the increased use of antacids may be blocking the absorption of B12."

The documentary said basically the same thing, that an equal number of vegans and meat-eaters are B12 deficient so that we should all be supplementing no matter what diet we are on.

[KungFuPanda]

5 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

A kid eating the typical breakfast served at public schools eats the daily allotment in one meal. There is SO much added sugar in everything. The "healthy" granola at Trader Joes has more sugar in it than the ice cream! And then all the low fat yogurt with tons of sugar in it, etc. Add in a couple sodas, and maybe a starbucks pumpkin spice latte and yeah, you've got an ENORMOUS amount of sugar. 

One granda starbucks drink has more sugar than I get in a day when I'm eating right. And that's one drink. 

 

I get that you pretty much have to cook everything yourself to reduce sugar to acceptable levels and it's pretty hard to avoid it altogether unless you cut out lots of fruits and veggies.  Still, getting a month's worth of sugar in a single day seems really hard to do accidentally.  I'm picturing someone with a sugar bowl and a spoon! It would be nauseating.  I'm a person who gravitates towards savory foods, so maybe it's easier than I imagine. 

I think I've hit the age where restaurants are ruined for me.  Everything tastes too sweet or too salty or the portions are too huge.  Sometimes it's all three at once.  I'm that geezer now.

 

[ktgrok]

3 minutes ago, KungFuPanda said:

 

I get that you pretty much have to cook everything yourself to reduce sugar to acceptable levels and it's pretty hard to avoid it altogether unless you cut out lots of fruits and veggies.  Still, getting a month's worth of sugar in a single day seems really hard to do accidentally.  I'm picturing someone with a sugar bowl and a spoon! It would be nauseating.  I'm a person who gravitates towards savory foods, so maybe it's easier than I imagine. 

I think I've hit the age where restaurants are ruined for me.  Everything tastes too sweet or too salty or the portions are too huge.  Sometimes it's all three at once.  I'm that geezer now.

 

Probably sodas, rather than a sugar bowl. 

[KungFuPanda]

6 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Probably sodas, rather than a sugar bowl. 

 

You're probably right.  That would add up.  I do add sugar to my tea, but I add ONE teaspoon and I drink it twice a day.  If I replaced my tea with soda I'd be getting about 30 teaspoons of sugar.  Now that Plant Nanny is the boss of me, I'm drinking more water so my cartoon plants don't get sad. 😁  

[Frances]

8 hours ago, KungFuPanda said:

Wait, how can one person eat more sugar in a DAY than another eats in a week or a year?  What on earth does that one day look like? 

Sometimes I think these extreme diets say more about personality types than health fads.  People with obsessive/addictive personalities can go all in with just about anything.

I can actually imagine it pretty easily. More than once in my life I’ve gone an entire year without added sugar. The cravings completely disappear after about 10-14 days. And if you think about all of the sugary cereal, drinks, desserts, snacks, candy, etc., (not to mention the sugar added to many regular processed foods) that are a large part of the US diet for some people, even someone who just eats a generally healthy diet with a weekly treat or two is likely eating far less sugar in a week than many eat in a day.

Edited December 31, 2019 by Frances

[StaceyinLA]

8 hours ago, Frances said:

I can actually imagine it pretty easily. More than once in my life I’ve gone an entire year without added sugar. The cravings completely disappear after about 10-14 days. And if you think about all of the sugary cereal, drinks, desserts, snacks, candy, etc., (not to mention the sugar added to many regular processed foods) that are a large part of the US diet for some people, even someone who just eats a generally healthy diet with a weekly treat or two is likely eating far less sugar in a week than many eat in a day.

 

This is why when I see my sugar intake creeping up (as in I can start tolerating sweeter foods or desserts), I do a round of Whole 30. Once I’ve gone a couple weeks without sugar, some fruit can even taste too sweet. But if I let myself start having a little here and there, I’ll get a taste for it and then cravings for more. Not going there.

[Quercus]

1 hour ago, Plum said:

When you really start looking at the ingredients lists, it’s shocking how much sugar is in everything.

 

Yes I meant sugar that is added to things, not raw fruit or food that breaks down as sugar within the body, when I commented about my sister in law and nephews/niece. I apologize for getting off the topic of veganism.