Problem of Evil for Sunday School Students

[Pronghorn]

One of the teen Sunday school participants at my church is interested in having some lessons on why bad things happen to good people. So, I am looking for resources. What would be most wonderful would be a curriculum for teens that explicitly addresses this topic. Alternatively, I could read some books and create something. Please give me any suggestions you have. And if you have experience teaching teens about this topic, I'd love to hear how it went.

For context, I am in a small United Methodist church with a mixture of liberal and conservative members. We Sunday school teachers tend to be more on the liberal end of the spectrum.

Edited December 29, 2019 by Pronghorn

[matrips]

Maybe some true stories?  I just read a short article by Daniel Ritchie who was born without arms.  While he was upset etc when younger, as he got older he realized it is a gift from God and not a curse. I couldn’t copy the address but you can google him.

[Caroline]

22 minutes ago, Pronghorn said:

One of the teen Sunday school participants at my church is interested in having some lessons on why bad things happen to good people. So, I am looking for resources. What would be most wonderful would be a curriculum for teens that explicitly addresses this topic. Alternatively, I could read some books and create something. Please give me any suggestions you have. And if you have experience teaching teens about this topic, I'd love to hear how it went.

For context, I am in a small United Methodist church with a mixture of liberal and conservative members. We Sunday school teachers tend to be more on the liberal end of the spectrum.

Back in the 1970’s, my high school Sunday School class did a book study on a book called When Bad Things Happen to Good People by Harold Kushner. Kushner is a rabbi whose son died of a degenerative disease in his early teens. I don’t remember much about it. My church was  then and still is very a  liberal  United Methodist Church. 

[Condessa]

Mere Christianity and The Problem of Pain by C.S. Lewis.

[MercyA]

Here is a nice succinct article with Bible references. I think you could easily build a simple study around it.

[wintermom]

I don't understand the belief that "bad things" shouldn't happen to good people. There is a book called "When Bad Things Happen to Good People," which I read and found very weird and lacked some obvious reality of life. Stuff happens to everyone - both good things and bad things. There is no such thing as protecting one's self from "bad" by being a christian, jewish, atheist, muslim, or whatever. 

The point isn't whether good or bad things happen, it's how we react and deal with life as it happens. Are we going to blame God. Are we going to be thankful for what we have? Are we going to expect only good things to ever happen in our life? 

Pain and suffering happens. There isn't always a tidy reason behind it. Sometimes life is simply very difficult. But there is hope, and there is comfort in the christian faith and its practices of prayer, community support and a loving God. 

I would keep things simple, practical and real.  Most teens have already experienced some pain and suffering, and can handle the truth that they aren't protected somehow from life through attending a church. 

[gardenmom5]

because life happens.  it's real hard to develop and grow as a person, or prove what kind of person we are, if all we're doing is sitting on the beach in Hawaii.

One of our church leader's used the symbolism of pruning a plant.  when done correctly, it makes it more productive (either for fruit or flower - even timber if you're thinning trees.). but it can seem very harsh at the time.

 

eta: and sometimes the corollary- big windstorms (or freezes) come through and can do damage, or even kill, established native plants.  because - it just does.

 

Edited December 30, 2019 by gardenmom5

[Xahm]

As a teen, I got a lot out of reading The Problem of Pain and A Grief Observed, both by CS Lewis. One is a reasoned look at theology, one is an account of going through a terrible pain. Together they seemed more honest and helpful than either could have been on its own. I'm not sure you could get a Sunday School class to read one whole book, let alone two, but you could bring in excerpts 

[gardenmom5]

I find your title is misleading.   

there is evil, and there are bad things that happen by chance because bad things happen in life.  IME-  they're not the same thing.

sometimes people make poor decisions, and bad things happen.  sometimes, people make bad decisions - and escape the consequences (for now tends to eventually catch up)

sometimes people are doing everything right - and bad things still happen. (because, ces't la vie.)

then there is evil . . . . I have my own working definition of evil based upon my experiences with my npd grandmother.  "seeks to usurp the agency of another to feed their own ego and self-aggrandizement." 

 

[ktgrok]

Personally I HATE the idea that bad things happen on purpose for our benefit. The very idea that Jesus would cause a child to die slowly of cancer just to teach that child or the parent some lesson in life is abhorrent to me, and against everything I know about God. 

I've also known many people who lost their faith totally over such an idea. 

So I'd stay far away from that one. 

Instead I'd focus on the idea that when we feel pain, so does God. Jesus as co-sufferer, Jesus holding us as we cry, Jesus as comforter. 

Not Jesus as parent punishing us or teaching us a lesson or whatever. 

Edited December 30, 2019 by Ktgrok

[Lucy the Valiant]

4 hours ago, Michelle Conde said:

Mere Christianity and The Problem of Pain by C.S. Lewis.

 

1 hour ago, xahm said:

As a teen, I got a lot out of reading The Problem of Pain and A Grief Observed, both by CS Lewis. One is a reasoned look at theology, one is an account of going through a terrible pain. Together they seemed more honest and helpful than either could have been on its own. I'm not sure you could get a Sunday School class to read one whole book, let alone two, but you could bring in excerpts 

 

The Problem of Pain  was profoundly pivotal for me personally, around a similar age (late teens / early 20's). I have been grateful many times since.

[Pronghorn]

58 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Personally I HATE the idea that bad things happen on purpose for our benefit. The very idea that Jesus would cause a child to die slowly of cancer just to teach that child or the parent some lesson in life is abhorrent to me, and against everything I know about God. 

I've also known many people who lost their faith totally over such an idea. 

So I'd stay far away from that one. 

Instead I'd focus on the idea that when we feel pain, so does God. Jesus as co-sufferer, Jesus holding us as we cry, Jesus as comforter. 

Not Jesus as parent punishing us or teaching us a lesson or whatever. 

I am with you on this. Once upon a time we were going to adopt a child, and the adoption fell through. I believe that child was never adopted. We ended up adopting another child, and some people interpret that first child as just part of God's plan to bring us the second. I never could accept that thinking. I would think in God's eyes that first child would be just as important as the second. How could the first child's welfare be minimized in God's mind in favor of the welfare of the second?

[Pronghorn]

1 hour ago, gardenmom5 said:

I find your title is misleading.   

there is evil, and there are bad things that happen by chance because bad things happen in life.  IME-  they're not the same thing.

sometimes people make poor decisions, and bad things happen.  sometimes, people make bad decisions - and escape the consequences (for now tends to eventually catch up)

sometimes people are doing everything right - and bad things still happen. (because, ces't la vie.)

then there is evil . . . . I have my own working definition of evil based upon my experiences with my npd grandmother.  "seeks to usurp the agency of another to feed their own ego and self-aggrandizement." 

 

Sorry about my word choice. Maybe "pain" would have been a better word. On the other hand, when a tsunami wipes out whole villages, it does seem a bit evil to me.

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, Pronghorn said:

Sorry about my word choice. Maybe "pain" would have been a better word. On the other hand, when a tsunami wipes out whole villages, it does seem a bit evil to me.

how is a tsunami evil?  it's just mother nature doing what mother nature does because of an earthquake (or major landslide into a body of water).  It's not being done to deliberately harm anyone/anything.  

I say this as someone who lives in an area at risk from Cascadia.  we know the last time - to the day (Jan 26, 1700) - Cascadia ripped, because the tsunami wiped out the rice crop in Japan.  (the Japanese kept detailed records.)

natural disasters are , disasters, catastrophes, tragedies, etc, but I wouldn't call them "evil" unless you are arguing some greater force is controlling them to malevolently cause people death, destruction, and misery and take away people's autonomy.

[Pronghorn]

7 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

how is a tsunami evil?  it's just mother nature doing what mother nature does because of an earthquake (or major landslide into a body of water).  It's not being done to deliberately harm anyone/anything.  

I say this as someone who lives in an area at risk from Cascadia.  we know the last time - to the day (Jan 26, 1700) - Cascadia ripped, because the tsunami wiped out the rice crop in Japan.  (the Japanese kept detailed records.)

natural disasters are , disasters, catastrophes, tragedies, etc, but I wouldn't call them "evil" unless you are arguing some greater force is controlling them to malevolently cause people death, destruction, and misery and take away people's autonomy.

What you are saying makes sense. However, a case could also be made for an all-powerful God being in some sense responsible for all that happens in their creation. God is, after all, the designer of mother nature in most Christian theology. Also, there is the emotional level in people that experiences terrible, undeserved things as evil. You may not feel that way, but many people do.

[livetoread]

One of the most honest things a theologian said to me when I was struggling with the problem of evil was, “If the problem of evil isn’t keeping you up at night, you aren’t thinking about it hard enough.” Ultimately, IMO, there are no good answers for it. Hearing and reading the answers offered made me despair more as they all asked me to justify either bad behavior or neglect on the part of a supposedly loving deity and call it good. Many continue to believe while still acknowledging there are no good answers. I was not one, but I know other intelligent, thoughtful people who have. Delving into the issue is a gateway drug to agnosticism for many though, just saying. I say this not to be discouraging as you look for answers to offer the teens, but as a caution.

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, Pronghorn said:

What you are saying makes sense. However, a case could also be made for an all-powerful God being in some sense responsible for all that happens in their creation. God is, after all, the designer of mother nature in most Christian theology. Also, there is the emotional level in people that experiences terrible, undeserved things as evil. You may not feel that way, but many people do.

 

7 minutes ago, Danae said:

 

“The Problem of Evil” is the category that this philosophical dilemna has been discussed under for almost two thousand years. Whether or not it fits anybody’s current definition of the word evil it’s terminology that will be helpful in finding books and other resources on the topic.

oookkkaaayyy. . .  . I guess this is why I recall some guy who blamed his car for why he was in so many accidents/got so many tickets.  (when other people who drove it didn't have that problem.)

[Pronghorn]

30 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

 

oookkkaaayyy. . .  . I guess this is why I recall some guy who blamed his car for why he was in so many accidents/got so many tickets.  (when other people who drove it didn't have that problem.)

Blaming the car would be like blaming mother nature, which seems closer to your position than mine. Blaming the manufacturer of the car is more like blaming God. You also seem to imply that the man is responsible for his own trouble, which is, unfortunately, not the case with all natural disasters that mother nature brings us.

So, what is your advice? Are you thinking I should just tell my student that her question is a stupid question? Or are you saying the question is so easy to answer that it is stupid that I sought advice on this age-old question?

[gardenmom5]

40 minutes ago, Pronghorn said:

Blaming the car would be like blaming mother nature, which seems closer to your position than mine. Blaming the manufacturer of the car is more like blaming God. You also seem to imply that the man is responsible for his own trouble, which is, unfortunately, not the case with all natural disasters that mother nature brings us.

So, what is your advice? Are you thinking I should just tell my student that her question is a stupid question? Or are you saying the question is so easy to answer that it is stupid that I sought advice on this age-old question?

no.  nature is nature, and relies on the interaction of a host of very complex systems.

blaming the car ignores the driver  - and it's the driver who is in control of the car. (unless there is a major mechanical failure.)

where do you get the idea I think you should tell your student it's a "stupid question"?  way to misread what I've said.

Franklyh I agree with @wintermom - why do people think bad things *shouldn't* happen to good people?  frankly - I've dealt (too much) with people who think that - and they have generally been quite sanctimonious to those who have challenges - they "blame the victim".   I'm also of the opinion that those who think bad things only happen to bad people - are living a delusion thinking nothing bad will happen to them, "because they're so wonderful".

[Pronghorn]

35 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

no.  nature is nature, and relies on the interaction of a host of very complex systems.

blaming the car ignores the driver  - and it's the driver who is in control of the car. (unless there is a major mechanical failure.)

where do you get the idea I think you should tell your student it's a "stupid question"?  way to misread what I've said.

Franklyh I agree with @wintermom - why do people think bad things *shouldn't* happen to good people?  frankly - I've dealt (too much) with people who think that - and they have generally been quite sanctimonious to those who have challenges - they "blame the victim".   I'm also of the opinion that those who think bad things only happen to bad people - are living a delusion thinking nothing bad will happen to them, "because they're so wonderful".

Well, you are criticising the question. That is where I got the idea you thought it was stupid. I am trying to take her question seriously. And I do not know where she got the idea that bad things should not happen to good people. I guess I kind of agree with her but I also understand that reality does not conform to what I sometimes wish reality would be.

If you think perhaps that I am one of those sanctimonious people like those you have dealt with, you are wrong. I am a humble teacher trying to help a student. I do not blame victims. Nor do I live under a delusion thinking bad things only happen to bad people.w

You still have not told me what your advice is.

[Pronghorn]

My question here is really quite practical and straightforward. I am not looking for criticism of the young teen who asked it or of the many people in history who have entertained the question or of myself for viewing it as a serious question. I am looking for actual advice that I could implement.

[ktgrok]

I think "we don't know" is a valid answer, and probably more likely to be helpful than some of the answers I've heard over the years. 

I also think it helps to point out free will - that if God stopped say, a mugger, that would take away the free will of the mugger, and God doesn't do that. But that doesn't explain all of it, and no one really can. 

[gardenmom5]

23 minutes ago, Pronghorn said:

Well, you are criticising the question. That is where I got the idea you thought it was stupid. I am trying to take her question seriously. And I do not know where she got the idea that bad things should not happen to good people. I guess I kind of agree with her but I also understand that reality does not conform to what I sometimes wish reality would be.

If you think perhaps that I am one of those sanctimonious people like those you have dealt with, you are wrong. I am a humble teacher trying to help a student. I do not blame victims. Nor do I live under a delusion thinking bad things only happen to bad people.w

You still have not told me what your advice is.

I'm not criticizing the question -   we obviously have different definitions of evil.  (We probably have very different ideas about the nature of God too. - I believe in loving God.)  but then I had a very conservative Christian tell me it had to be satan that was causing my 3yo son to have such struggles - he was subsequently diagnosed with ASD (and related issues), and it was how it was manifesting.

go back and read what I wrote:

because life happens.  it's real hard to develop and grow as a person, or prove what kind of person we are, if all we're doing is sitting on the beach in Hawaii.

One of our church leader's used the symbolism of pruning a plant.  when done correctly, it makes it more productive (either for fruit or flower - even timber if you're thinning trees.). but it can seem very harsh at the time.

eta: and sometimes the corollary- big windstorms (or freezes) come through and can do damage, or even kill, established native plants.  because - it just does.

15 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

I find your title is misleading.   

there is evil, and there are bad things that happen by chance because bad things happen in life.  IME-  they're not the same thing.

sometimes people make poor decisions, and bad things happen.  sometimes, people make bad decisions - and escape the consequences (for now tends to eventually catch up)

sometimes people are doing everything right - and bad things still happen. (because, ces't la vie.)

then there is evil . . . . I have my own working definition of evil based upon my experiences with my npd grandmother.  "seeks to usurp the agency of another to feed their own ego and self-aggrandizement." 

 

Frankly - because we seem to have such different ideas of what evil is, and probably very different ideas of who God is - I doubt there is anything I could say that you would find helpful.

 

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, seekinghim45 said:

Because unfortunately, so much of Christianity has been accept Christ and all of your probelms will disappear: your addiction will end immediately, your kids will grow up to be wonderful people, you will have set-backs but ultimately your life will be good.  Not sure where I got that message, but I did.  And when life was hard, I felt like I wasn't doing Christianity correctly.  Still struggle sometimes.  To me 1 +1 should equal 2, but life just doesn't work that way.  Sure wish it did. 

yeah - I've known Christians like that.  I believe that view is simplistic (I have deeper thoughts on that, but won't get into them on a public board)  - and if they go back and read about the early Apostles - they didn't have easy lives.  

I dealt with people with completely opposite ideas when we were going through hard times.  I had some - who blamed us.  we must be doing something wrong.  and others who, "don't know why, but sometimes lousy things just happen."  the second group were much more compassionate and supportive.  the first group - were happy to stay away (lest bad things happening might be contagious.)

 I agree with wintermom - when life get's hard, do we call upon God for help and succor and draw closer to Him?  or get mad and turn away?

I think that is a more useful directions for such a discussion to take.

and yeah -it would sure be nice to just sit on the beach and watch the ocean waves sometimes. . . . but life rarely allows that.   

[EmseB]

My favorite discourse on this topic is an interview with YA author ND Wilson. He talks about the problem of evil from an author's perspective and how to use it in stories and God as the author in all of our stories. It's a bit lengthy, but the pertinent bits start around the 32min mark.

I think, from my theological perspective, it's important to note that all the badness in the world isn't dealt with on this side of eternity. Evil, badness, sin, the falleness of creation, whatever you want to call it, doesn't make sense. It's not going to make sense because that is the nature of evil and badness. We know deep down that it isn't how things are supposed to be. And we may go to our graves not knowing why a bad thing happened to us or to others because it doesn't make sense, it is just deeply wrong. But the grave is not the end of the story. Justice, goodness, truth, and beauty prevail in the end. That is what gives us hope and trust in God; we know the end of the story and Love wins out. Evil is overcome even if we can't see it now. I do believe that God hates evil and suffers with us, but also that nothing is pointless or that God doesn't use these things for our good (Romans 8 tells us this directly). Anyway, I digress, and the interview is really interesting if you're mulling this over, even if you don't agree with everything that is said.

 

[ktgrok]

42 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

yeah - I've known Christians like that.  I believe that view is simplistic (I have deeper thoughts on that, but won't get into them on a public board)  - and if they go back and read about the early Apostles - they didn't have easy lives.  

 

yes!!! I get SO annoyed with the prosperity gospel/word of faith people who claim that if you have faith only good will happen. I'm like, um...care to explain the apostles that were martyred??? You going to say they didn't have faith?!?!

[Pronghorn]

Sorry about not answering your question.The teen is maybe fifteen or so and the class encompasses twelve and up.  I do not know the needs in terms of complexity. I think that would only become evident in the process of discussing it. This is why I like to have some knowledge and resources ahead of time.

[Pronghorn]

1 hour ago, gardenmom5 said:

I'm not criticizing the question -   we obviously have different definitions of evil.  (We probably have very different ideas about the nature of God too. - I believe in loving God.)  but then I had a very conservative Christian tell me it had to be satan that was causing my 3yo son to have such struggles - he was subsequently diagnosed with ASD (and related issues), and it was how it was manifesting.

go back and read what I wrote:

 

 

I think you are misunderstanding me quite badly. Nowhere did I say that I do not believe in a loving God. Nowhere did I say that I think God causes evil to punish us or teach us or that God showers only good down on good people. I have discussed the common, historical underpinnings of my student's question, not my own beliefs.

I am sorry a conservative Christian said what they did about your son. As a liberal Christian I am not in any way allied with such beliefs. As a Sunday school teacher, I teach about God's love.

[Pronghorn]

The situation has changed. Someone else will be teaching that class in the new year, and she feels ready to tackle the question. Thank you to those who suggested resources. I may explore them for my own edification.

[Pronghorn]

2 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

I'm not criticizing the question -   we obviously have different definitions of evil.  (We probably have very different ideas about the nature of God too. - I believe in loving God.)  but then I had a very conservative Christian tell me it had to be satan that was causing my 3yo son to have such struggles - he was subsequently diagnosed with ASD (and related issues), and it was how it was manifesting.

go back and read what I wrote:

 

 

I looked back and it seems that perhaps you thought I was the one using the pruning analogy. However, that was not my comment. Someone else said that.

Now I Iooked back and it seems like you are the one that talked about us being pruned. So, I am just really confused. I don't see how that comment fits in or whether I am somehow misreading things.

Edited December 30, 2019 by Pronghorn

[Ausmumof3]

19 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

because life happens.  it's real hard to develop and grow as a person, or prove what kind of person we are, if all we're doing is sitting on the beach in Hawaii.

One of our church leader's used the symbolism of pruning a plant.  when done correctly, it makes it more productive (either for fruit or flower - even timber if you're thinning trees.). but it can seem very harsh at the time.

 

eta: and sometimes the corollary- big windstorms (or freezes) come through and can do damage, or even kill, established native plants.  because - it just does.

 

Kinda topical for us in Aus right now

sometimes sitting on a beach in Hawaii proves exactly what kind of person we are!

[gardenmom5]

3 hours ago, Pronghorn said:

I looked back and it seems that perhaps you thought I was the one using the pruning analogy. However, that was not my comment. Someone else said that.

Now I Iooked back and it seems like you are the one that talked about us being pruned. So, I am just really confused. I don't see how that comment fits in or whether I am somehow misreading things.

you're right.  it has zero to do with evil.

and we seem to have a number of different definitions of many things.  what is evil.  what is life.  the nature of God. . . . 

[Pronghorn]

1 hour ago, gardenmom5 said:

you're right.  it has zero to do with evil.

and we seem to have a number of different definitions of many things.  what is evil.  what is life.  the nature of God. . . . 

Think what you want. I have said little or nothing of my personal beliefs in these areas. You are projecting. ThIs thread was never a discussion about my beliefs. It was a discussion of a theological issue and its philosophical underpinnings and how I could help a teen think through some issues.

Edited December 31, 2019 by Pronghorn

[gardenmom5]

8 minutes ago, Pronghorn said:

Think what you want. I have said little or nothing of my personal beliefs in these areas. You are projecting. thIs thread was never a discussion about my beliefs. It was a discussion of a theological issue and its philosophical underpinnings and how I could help a teen think through some issues.

what people thought about evil was brought up on this thread.  There were even some thoughts people shared about the nature of God.

[Pronghorn]

Yes, some people spontaneously decided to share. And some shared in the course of giving advice on how to handle the question. What I was talking about was that I shared very little in personal views. I did agree at some point with someone who shared their opposition to people's idea that God is causing suffering to teach us things. Do you believe God causes us to suffer to teach us? Perhaps that is where we differ.

[Bluegoat]

OP - This is one of the most basic of theological problems and one that affects many people on a personal level.  It's worthwhile to spend time on it I think.

I think for kids that age, the CS Lewis suggestions are probably your best bet.  I would treat it as a guided book group but you might have to make decisions about ages, or use excerpts.

A couple of thoughts from posts - natural disasters have traditionally been considered a part of the same problem, theologically speaking, which is how is it that, if there is a good God, bad things can happen. To anyone, really.  This question is at the root of some pretty significant Christian doctrines, notably the Fall.

It's also the case that Christianity has also said that suffering is important in our human growth and salvation of creation, often in ways we don't understand. Suffering is part of God, the First Principle, that's what the Cross tells us.  The degraded form is that is problematic but it's important not to neglect the deeper idea.

I think that one of the important things for students to remember is the alternate of a good God who for some reason allows evil does not solve the problem in a clearly better way. The alternate is a universe without good and evil, and whatever implications come out of that.  

ETA: Ah, I see you aren't going to teach this!  But it is worth reading up on.

Edited December 31, 2019 by Bluegoat

[livetoread]

12 hours ago, Bluegoat said:

I think that one of the important things for students to remember is the alternate of a good God who for some reason allows evil does not solve the problem in a clearly better way. The alternate is a universe without good and evil, and whatever implications come out of that.  

Just want to point out that there are other alternatives too, like there is a bad God, or there is a flawed, sort of good, sort of bad God, but people want to believe s/he/it is all good and so work to justify the flaws. It’s not a very popular option though, and I’ve spent some time pondering the psychology of why that is. 

[Bluegoat]

1 hour ago, livetoread said:

Just want to point out that there are other alternatives too, like there is a bad God, or there is a flawed, sort of good, sort of bad God, but people want to believe s/he/it is all good and so work to justify the flaws. It’s not a very popular option though, and I’ve spent some time pondering the psychology of why that is. 

 

It's very problematic philosophically.  It would be difficult to have an "evil" or even mixed God in a monotheistic system.  When people attempt something like this what you typically get is something dualistic like Manichaeism.

[MercyA]

7 hours ago, livetoread said:

Just want to point out that there are other alternatives too, like there is a bad God, or there is a flawed, sort of good, sort of bad God, but people want to believe s/he/it is all good and so work to justify the flaws. It’s not a very popular option though, and I’ve spent some time pondering the psychology of why that is. 

Yes.

Riffing off of this...I think people work too hard to make the God of the Bible fit their conception of what is good or fair or right. My personal view is that He is God and He does "whatsoever He pleases in heaven and on earth," whether we like it or not. He doesn't need me to try to explain away or defend His actions.

And, so, while I do believe the God I worship is ultimately perfectly good and righteous and just, I also believe, based on my understanding of Scripture, that He *does* sometimes cause things that we would consider very bad indeed. The plagues in Egypt. Allowing Joseph to be sold into slavery by his brothers. Destruction of whole cities. Permission for Satan to test Job (and Peter). The death of David's child as punishment for David's sins of murder and adultery. 

That said, I think we have to be very, very careful about assuming that we can know God's mind, outside of what Scripture directly reveals. It's wrong to extrapolate and say, "God punished David by taking the life of his child. Therefore, if a child dies, it must be the parents' fault--or God must have a specific plan." No. We don't and can't know that. We do know that He can use all things for good in the lives of believers.

I also think God has given Satan a measure of power here. I don't know why. I do know that much of the evil in the world arises from his influence. 

I do believe there is only one true God, and He gives me the choice to follow Him or not. I can follow Him as He is or reject Him entirely. Or, I can try to create a God I like better. But what would be the point of that? 

"Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him." Job 13:15

Edited December 31, 2019 by MercyA

[livetoread]

I have never had a quarrel with those who take from the Bible and from real life that God exists and sometimes does things that seem wrong to us. Where I differ is when they go on to claim that God is also obviously good. To me, it stretches the definition of good beyond recognition. I can understand someone saying they still believe God is good, even in face of evidence to the contrary. Denying the evidence to the contrary loses me. IMO, it is far from obvious that if a deity exists, it is good.

[Bluegoat]

The problem is that in monotheism God defines the nature of reality. What is exists as a sort of reflection of God.  Therefore what is true can only be what is of God, and the idea of goodness doesn't really have any reality apart from that. 

It's also why in monotheism proper evil has no independent existence of its own, its a matter of disordered goods.  

[EmseB]

If God has created everything, then God defines what good is. It can't be objectively based on anything but that. In terms of evidence, two people or two cultures can evaluate the evidence and come away with wildly different ideas about what is good and what is evil.

[livetoread]

Sure, I understand that. The rub is in figuring out what God defines as good. It isn’t exactly clear, so, IMO, we are all still trying to figure out what is good and what isn’t, whether we are monotheists or not.