no contact question . . .

[gardenmom5]

my friend's dds have severed contact with her.  I have zero clue why.  She's trying to reach out, she posts a lot of  messages aimed at them to FB.  She thinks they'll see it there.  (no idea why she thinks that if they're not talking to her.).  I don't see her much because she has moved much further out.

anyway   .  . she just posted something about how we need to forgive people even if they're not sorry . . . . . smh.  I messaged her that if that was truly aimed at them, it was likely to just make things worse (assuming they saw it.) - she knows I had strained relations with my grandmother (though we haven't really talked about the extent), and I had mentioned she was a covert narcissist.  (I did feel she didn't' "get what I was saying", when she said her girls probably think she's a narcissist.  - though if she says stuff like that . . . . . )

she actually has a better relationship with their dad (1st dh) - since she's divorced her 3rd dh.  (1st dh is happily remarried.)

 

any suggestions of things You'd like your no-contact family member to know if they want to heal a relationship?  I believe she wants to have a good relationship, so I'm trying to assume she's teachable and will be humble that she needs to change herself.  I'll find out more by how she responds to my "that message you posted will likely make things worse" message . . . . 

Edited December 28, 2019 by gardenmom5

[Scarlett]

9 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

my friend's dds have severed contact with her.  I have zero clue why.  She's trying to reach out, she posts a lot of  messages aimed at them to FB.  She thinks they'll see it there.  (no idea why she thinks that if they're not talking to her.).  I don't see her much because she has moved much further out.

anyway   .  . she just posted something about how we need to forgive people even if they're not sorry . . . . . smh.  I messaged her that if that was truly aimed at them, it was likely to just make things worse (assuming they saw it.) - she knows I had strained relations with my grandmother (though we haven't really talked about the extent), and I had mentioned she was a covert narcissist.  (I did feel she didn't' "get what I was saying", when she said her girls probably think she's a narcissist.  - though if she says stuff like that . . . . . )

she actually has a better relationship with their dad (1st dh) - since she's divorced her 3rd dh.  (1st dh is happily remarried.)

 

any suggestions of things You'd like your no-contact family member to know if they want to heal a relationship?  I believe she wants to have a good relationship, so I'm trying to assume she's teachable and will be humble that she needs to change herself.  I'll find out more by how she responds to my "that message you posted will likely make things worse" message . . . . 

Ha, well you are not likely to get the story from her.  Do you know her dds?  I would ask them if there is something you can do to help your friend do what she needs to do to heal the relationship.  

[Murphy101]

5 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Ha, well you are not likely to get the story from her.  Do you know her dds?  I would ask them if there is something you can do to help your friend do what she needs to do to heal the relationship.  

^Yep.  But no I wouldn’t contact her kids unless I was already very close to them  

And I wouldn’t assume anything she didn’t outright tell you. I would tell her to never go through 3rd parties to handle it. No more FB comments. None of that. She needs to hear what they have to say and accept it with nothing but “I am sorry I made you feel that way. What can I do to heal our relationship?” And then happily do it unless it’s a moral quandary. 

Edited December 28, 2019 by Murphy101

[Scarlett]

5 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

Gently....

this is something that is not your monkeys, not your circus.  Sympathize with your friend when she is upset about it, but, I suggest staying out of the relationship aspect.  Don't suggest things to say, things not to say, where to say them, how, etc etc.  If you do, before you know it, you are going to be asked to call the DDs, or post things to your FB for your friend because she knows her DDs won't see anything from your account.  

 

Just keep to "that must be so hard." and try to avoid getting in the middle.  

And I think I mostly agree depending on how close of friends they are.  Some of my friends---you can bet I would tell them what they should be doing if they want a relationship with their adult kid--or anyone.  

[unsinkable]

to quote one of my favorite fictional people:

Beeswax: Not Yours, Inc.

[gardenmom5]

13 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Ha, well you are not likely to get the story from her.  Do you know her dds?  I would ask them if there is something you can do to help your friend do what she needs to do to heal the relationship.  

I haven't seen her girls since the last one got married.  

8 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

^Yep.  But no I wouldn’t contact her kids unless I was already very close to them  

And I wouldn’t assume anything she didn’t outright tell you. I would tell her to never go through 3rd parties to handle it. No more FB comments. None of that. She needs to hear what they have to say and accept it with nothing but “I am sorry I made you feel that way. What can I do to heal our relationship?” And then happily do it unless it’s a moral quandary. 

I wouldn't contact her kids.  My inclination would be to tell her she needs to listen to them. If she really wants things to be better, she needs to start by respecting their feelings.

5 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

And I think I mostly agree depending on how close of friends they are.  Some of my friends---you can bet I would tell them what they should be doing if they want a relationship with their adult kid--or anyone.  

Yeah- I'll see how she responds to my "that will make things worse" message to her last post.  I've rolled my eyes at a lot of them.

[footballmom]

My NPD mom would post things on FB directed at me, so I adjusted my settings so I wouldn’t see her posts and I cut my time spent on there because she commented on anything I was tagged in.  

I agree that if she wants a relationship with them, she needs to be willing to honor their feelings (and change hurtful behaviors) and they need to be in a place that they can have the door cracked just enough to give her a chance.  You’re a good friend for wanting to help her with some bumpers.  I agree, though, the best thing you can do is just voice support that it sounds hard, etc.  

[gardenmom5]

Just now, footballmom said:

My NPD mom would post things on FB directed at me, so I adjusted my settings so I wouldn’t see her posts and I cut my time spent on there because she commented on anything I was tagged in.  

I agree that if she wants a relationship with them, she needs to be willing to honor their feelings (and change hurtful behaviors) and they need to be in a place that they can have the door cracked just enough to give her a chance.  You’re a good friend for wanting to help her with some bumpers.  I agree, though, the best thing you can do is just voice support that it sounds hard, etc.  

yeah - I question if her girls even see any of her FB posts.  And if they're that upset with her - many of the things she posts, will likely increase their opinion she's out of touch and doesn't care (or is at least completely oblivious) about their perspective.

I would just be trying to help her see the things she posts from another point of view. I commented an opposing viewpoint once, she took it down because she didn't want her girls to see an opposing viewpoint.  

[Janeway]

We know she has had at least three husbands. That is a sign of a lot of dysfunction in her life. Someone does not marry and divorce three times when they have no chaos or otherwise going on. Since both her DDs cut her out, I doubt there is anything you could do. And if you do talk to the daughters, if they have a real reason, a good one, to cut her out, chances are, they won't talk about it. And if they just want to spread lies, then they will talk and you will be in the bad position of deciding if you should relay their stories. What I am trying to say is, when there is a cut out situation, one side or the other or both have done something. If the daughters have simply been hanging out on Reddit and cut mom out because Dad gives them more money so they feel slighted by her, then they will likely tell you how terrible she is. IF they cut her out because they have actually abused her all these years, abused people won't talk about it, they won't tell you. 

 

You just cannot help the situation. Sorry. If I were you, I would stay out of the drama as much as possible and just be a kind listening ear when your friend asks for it.

[Shoeless]

If I had a friend in this situation, I would suggest they see a therapist to discuss the situation.  

There's honestly nothing I want the people I am no-contact with to know about me or my feelings at this point. I don't want to do the emotional labor of "fixing" anything. I just want them to leave me alone and move on with their lives. 

[Tanaqui]

When one child doesn't want to talk to their parents, reasonable people can disagree over who is more at fault. When several children in a family don't want to speak to the same parent, this starts to look less like a thing and more like a pattern.

And if it's a pattern, there is very little chance that your friend will take the only advice which might do some good, which is to respect her daughters' wishes and not try to contact them, even sideways like she's been doing (posting "randomly" on facebook, asking other people to carry messages). You can give her that advice if she asks for it, but really, I wouldn't waste my breath.

[mathnerd]

Where NPD is involved, No Contact or Very Low Contact is what the victims do eventually when they figure out how much emotional (and perhaps physical) abuse they have put up with. If the victims went to therapy and their therapist suggested going NC or VLC in order to heal and care for themselves, then, there is not much that can be done to help the narcissist. I am not saying that your friend  has NPD, but, if she were, then, this would be the outcome of what she subjected her kids to. Even so, there is not much anyone can do other than suggest that they go to therapy to figure out how to fix things.

[gardenmom5]

4 hours ago, Janeway said:

We know she has had at least three husbands. That is a sign of a lot of dysfunction in her life. Someone does not marry and divorce three times when they have no chaos or otherwise going on. Since both her DDs cut her out, I doubt there is anything you could do. And if you do talk to the daughters, if they have a real reason, a good one, to cut her out, chances are, they won't talk about it. And if they just want to spread lies, then they will talk and you will be in the bad position of deciding if you should relay their stories. What I am trying to say is, when there is a cut out situation, one side or the other or both have done something. If the daughters have simply been hanging out on Reddit and cut mom out because Dad gives them more money so they feel slighted by her, then they will likely tell you how terrible she is. IF they cut her out because they have actually abused her all these years, abused people won't talk about it, they won't tell you. 

 

You just cannot help the situation. Sorry. If I were you, I would stay out of the drama as much as possible and just be a kind listening ear when your friend asks for it.

 all of her children are with husband #1.  they had MAJOR outside stress, that seriously stressed the relationship - and I really think she got crap advice from a particular person (it's the kind of thing that person would say) - to get divorced.  I understand what that is like, there was a period in my marriage with severe situational stress that stressed the relationship, and there are people who would have said to get divorced. (those aren't people whose opinions I value.)  I dont' regret staying together, but it was still a very difficult period.

both of her subsequent marriages were short lived, maybe a year each.

I wouldn't dream of talking to her daughters about this, and if I did, it would only be to say I understand the feelings that can lead to cutting off a family member. It's not made lightly.  (I went extremely limited contact with my grandmother, and even more limited/no-contact with my brother. - as have all three of his kids.)

4 hours ago, MissLemon said:

If I had a friend in this situation, I would suggest they see a therapist to discuss the situation.  

There's honestly nothing I want the people I am no-contact with to know about me or my feelings at this point. I don't want to do the emotional labor of "fixing" anything. I just want them to leave me alone and move on with their lives. 

I'm not telling her anything about her no-contact daughters, just trying to get her to see another perspective of her choices. 

2 hours ago, Tanaqui said:

When one child doesn't want to talk to their parents, reasonable people can disagree over who is more at fault. When several children in a family don't want to speak to the same parent, this starts to look less like a thing and more like a pattern.

And if it's a pattern, there is very little chance that your friend will take the only advice which might do some good, which is to respect her daughters' wishes and not try to contact them, even sideways like she's been doing (posting "randomly" on facebook, asking other people to carry messages). You can give her that advice if she asks for it, but really, I wouldn't waste my breath.

I agree, and is what I've done.  I've been on the side of cutting off family members.  I just hope that maybe my perspective can help her see another perspective, and what she can do to change the relationship.  (since what's she's doing sure isn't working.)

1 hour ago, mathnerd said:

Where NPD is involved, No Contact or Very Low Contact is what the victims do eventually when they figure out how much emotional (and perhaps physical) abuse they have put up with. If the victims went to therapy and their therapist suggested going NC or VLC in order to heal and care for themselves, then, there is not much that can be done to help the narcissist. I am not saying that your friend  has NPD, but, if she were, then, this would be the outcome of what she subjected her kids to. Even so, there is not much anyone can do other than suggest that they go to therapy to figure out how to fix things.

My grandmother was a covert narcissist.  btdt.   

[Carrie12345]

She’s most likely been told exactly what is needed to have those relationships.  I don’t personally know anyone who has gone no-contact without having gone to extraordinary efforts to avoid doing so.

I’m technically no-contact with 5 people, for 5 different reasons.  The shortest distance between “things are okay” to “complete cut off” was 2.5 years. Two and a half years of trying, then begging, then ultimatum, then breaking free.  I suppose it’s possible for some rare people, but I just can’t imagine any “normal-type” person swinging the ax overnight.  Well, maybe unless something insanely awful happened, but the person would be aware of that.

Not your monkeys.

[Tanaqui]

I suppose it could happen overnight for some people... but, again, it's unlikely to be like that for multiple children in one family barring an extraordinary event.

[gardenmom5]

14 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

She’s most likely been told exactly what is needed to have those relationships.  I don’t personally know anyone who has gone no-contact without having gone to extraordinary efforts to avoid doing so.

I’m technically no-contact with 5 people, for 5 different reasons.  The shortest distance between “things are okay” to “complete cut off” was 2.5 years. Two and a half years of trying, then begging, then ultimatum, then breaking free.  I suppose it’s possible for some rare people, but I just can’t imagine any “normal-type” person swinging the ax overnight.  Well, maybe unless something insanely awful happened, but the person would be aware of that.

Not your monkeys.

I doubt it.  I certainly never told my grandmother, or even my brother - what they needed to do for me to have open contact with them.  I regarded it as "don't try and teach a pig to sing.  it wastes your time and annoys the pig."  

Not sure either of my nieces have ever told my brother what he needs to do for them to have contact with him.  (youngest is holding onto all texts/emails for if she decides to file a restraining order against him. - and that one did involve a therapist telling niece my brother was the problem, as he had a number of first-hand encounters with him.)

My friend understands her girls won't see any of her posts on FB because "they've blocked her".  So I honestly don't know what she thinks she'll gain by posting "I love you, I miss you." posts.  to my knowledge she has contact with her younger two children. (youngest is in high school, lives with dad because he's in the better school district for her spec. needs.)

I'm not going to try to get her to see the other side.  I don't think she's ready.

[mathnerd]

14 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

My friend understands her girls won't see any of her posts on FB because "they've blocked her".  So I honestly don't know what she thinks she'll gain by posting "I love you, I miss you." posts.  to my knowledge she has contact with her younger two

She is posting these messages for herself: she could then show the people in her life (To whom she shows her false personality of being a nice person - again, I am guessing, because I don’t know her) that she “tries her best” and it is her selfish/ungrateful etc daughter who is the problem and will not relent. The other benefit your friend derives is her younger kids who she has contact with might see those posts and feel that mom is the victim, mom deserves better and perhaps act as “flying monkeys” and pressure the older sisters to let bygones be bygones. This is very common behavior in families in this situation.

Edited December 30, 2019 by mathnerd

[gardenmom5]

4 minutes ago, mathnerd said:

She is posting these messages for herself: she could then show the people in her life (To whom she shows her false personality of being a nice person - again, I am guessing, because I don’t know her) that she “tries her best” and it is her selfish/ungrateful etc daughter who is the problem and will not relent. The other benefit your friend derives is her younger kids who she has contact with might see those posts and feel that mom is the victim, mom deserves better and perhaps act as “flying monkeys” and pressure the older sisters to let bygones be bygones. This is very common behavior in families in this situation.

again - I came from this.  I have been to therapy for the cptsd from this.  I don't need an education on the games, or roles, people play in the narcissists life.

[katilac]

2 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

again - I came from this.  I have been to therapy for the cptsd from this.  I don't need an education on the games, or roles, people play in the narcissists life.

You did say you didn't know why your friend was posting, so it makes sense that mathnerd answered that.

[gardenmom5]

5 minutes ago, katilac said:

You did say you didn't know why your friend was posting, so it makes sense that mathnerd answered that.

she's just guessing.

I can "guess", I can come up with more than one "guess" - but that isn't knowledge.  and she was being condescending.

[katilac]

4 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

   and she was being condescending.

I didn't get that vibe. I was actually going to post the exact same thing about posting for sympathy, and I promise you it was with no intent of being condescending, it's just what came to mind when you said you didn't know why she would post. 

I hope everything works out for the best, whatever that may be, and that the situation doesn't bother you too much. I'm sure it's hard to consider that someone you consider a friend might be acting in selfish or negative ways. 

[Tanaqui]

2 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

she's just guessing.

I can "guess", I can come up with more than one "guess" - but that isn't knowledge.  and she was being condescending.

 

I don't know why you'd think that. It didn't look condescending to me.

[GoodGrief]

If she wants to heal a relationship that's gotten to the point of no contact, she needs to respect the boundaries that have been set. No reaching out to her daughters. Let them come to her when/if they feel ready. Certainly no vague social media posts about the situation. The very best thing she could do is go to a therapist and work on herself. Then, if her daughters decide they would like to try again, she might be ready for a healthy relationship.

That said, if your friend has narcissistic personality disorder, the odds are against a future healthy relationship. It's more hopeful if she has borderline personality disorder (which is often mistaken for npd, but is different, and more common in women.)

[Carrie12345]

22 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

She’s most likely been told exactly what is needed to have those relationships.  I don’t personally know anyone who has gone no-contact without having gone to extraordinary efforts to avoid doing so.

I’m technically no-contact with 5 people, for 5 different reasons.  The shortest distance between “things are okay” to “complete cut off” was 2.5 years. Two and a half years of trying, then begging, then ultimatum, then breaking free.  I suppose it’s possible for some rare people, but I just can’t imagine any “normal-type” person swinging the ax overnight.  Well, maybe unless something insanely awful happened, but the person would be aware of that.

Not your monkeys.

 

8 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

I doubt it.  I certainly never told my grandmother, or even my brother - what they needed to do for me to have open contact with them.  I regarded it as "don't try and teach a pig to sing.  it wastes your time and annoys the pig."  

Not sure either of my nieces have ever told my brother what he needs to do for them to have contact with him.  (youngest is holding onto all texts/emails for if she decides to file a restraining order against him. - and that one did involve a therapist telling niece my brother was the problem, as he had a number of first-hand encounters with him.)

My friend understands her girls won't see any of her posts on FB because "they've blocked her".  So I honestly don't know what she thinks she'll gain by posting "I love you, I miss you." posts.  to my knowledge she has contact with her younger two children. (youngest is in high school, lives with dad because he's in the better school district for her spec. needs.)

I'm not going to try to get her to see the other side.  I don't think she's ready.

I probably didn’t phrase that statement well.  “Been told what is needed” doesn’t necessarily mean a formal bullet point conversation. And it definitely doesn’t mean the person “heard” what anyone tried to communicate, which they likely didn’t agree with in their strange mind.  I tried to boil it down, which I do know isn’t very doable in these kinds of situations that run a huge, unpredictable spectrum. So I do take back the matter of factness of that statement.

And now I’m erasing the rest of what I wrote, lol. I’m sure it’s stuff you already know on a certain level.

[gardenmom5]

7 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

 

I probably didn’t phrase that statement well.  “Been told what is needed” doesn’t necessarily mean a formal bullet point conversation. And it definitely doesn’t mean the person “heard” what anyone tried to communicate, which they likely didn’t agree with in their strange mind.  I tried to boil it down, which I do know isn’t very doable in these kinds of situations that run a huge, unpredictable spectrum. So I do take back the matter of factness of that statement.

And now I’m erasing the rest of what I wrote, lol. I’m sure it’s stuff you already know on a certain level.

yeah - the bottom line for all of these is communication deficits.  for whatever reason, there is a problem with the communication that is (not) happening.

 some people are teachable, and some aren't.

[mathnerd]

13 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

she's just guessing.

I can "guess", I can come up with more than one "guess" - but that isn't knowledge.  and she was being condescending.

I was not being condescending. You asked why a random stranger to me would have to deal with NC from her daughter and why she is posting "miss you" messages on facebook - all of us on this thread are "guessing" because all of us do not know if that friend of yours is a narcissist or not. It is a common habit of a person with NPD to act as if they are not the problem and weave elaborate schemes to make themselves look like a victim when the opposite is true. If your friend is a narcissist, my guess is right. If she is not one, then, my guess is wrong and perhaps there is an easy solution to fix her problem. No condescension on my part. You asked why, and I told you my best guess from reading your posts and it is only a guess because I do not know your friend and her daughters and their family history. Hope you find a way to help your friend!

 

[gardenmom5]

4 hours ago, mathnerd said:

I was not being condescending. You asked why a random stranger to me would have to deal with NC from her daughter and why she is posting "miss you" messages on facebook - all of us on this thread are "guessing" because all of us do not know if that friend of yours is a narcissist or not. It is a common habit of a person with NPD to act as if they are not the problem and weave elaborate schemes to make themselves look like a victim when the opposite is true. If your friend is a narcissist, my guess is right. If she is not one, then, my guess is wrong and perhaps there is an easy solution to fix her problem. No condescension on my part. You asked why, and I told you my best guess from reading your posts and it is only a guess because I do not know your friend and her daughters and their family history. Hope you find a way to help your friend!

 

there are multiple *possible* reasons a NC person would be posting messages.  you gave ONE possible scenario- and it's a guess.  maybe that's true for the people in your life with whom you are NC - that doesn't mean it is for everyone.  even for a narcissist - it might have zip to do with kids - but to appear as a martyr to friends.  (my grandmother lived to be a martyr.)  

I don't think she is a narcissist, and I'm usually pretty good at spotting them.  or rather - the hair on the back of my neck is usually pretty good at spotting them.  A person can come from a dysfunctional family, be dysfunctional - and not be narcissistic.

I found your wording in attempting to "educate" me in the realities of being NC with a NPD relative - condescending.   I've been learning the realities of this subject, and those affected by it, for more than 40 years.  I'm not a newbie to this subject.

 

[Tanaqui]

I'm sure that when you say you felt insulted, you're being honest about your feelings. I am equally sure that when mathnerd says she wasn't intending to make you feel bad, and was only trying to give an honest answer to what appeared to be a non-rhetorical question, with no condescension meant, she is also being honest. I know this is all a very touchy subject, but maybe it might be best to take a breather?

[gardenmom5]

3 hours ago, Tanaqui said:

I'm sure that when you say you felt insulted, you're being honest about your feelings. I am equally sure that when mathnerd says she wasn't intending to make you feel bad, and was only trying to give an honest answer to what appeared to be a non-rhetorical question, with no condescension meant, she is also being honest. I know this is all a very touchy subject, but maybe it might be best to take a breather?

so why do people keep posting on this thread?   I asked a question, received answers, asked my friend, and received an answer.  I  was done - (pretty much implied it with my comment of "I'm not going to talk to her, because she's not ready"   as far as I was concerned, that was the end of the discussion - 

Then others would post comments directed at me.  (and they kept posting.).

 

Edited December 31, 2019 by gardenmom5

[Tanaqui]

Because they're not just talking to you. As I see it, a thread is like a conversation. Even if the person who started the conversation leaves, the other people in the conversation might keep talking about the same subject. You might decide that you are at the end of the discussion, but other people still feel they have something to say. (And it wasn't at all clear to me that you WERE done with the conversation. You might consider "I'm not going to talk to her, because she's not ready" to be fairly obvious, but I would never, ever have suspected you meant "Okay, don't want more advice, everybody can go now!" when you said that.)

Practically speaking, when I find myself very irritated at other people online, I often find it's better to just not say anything, because comments like "Stop posting, I won't read it" or "I'm done with this conversation" only invite more replies... usually rude ones, but once I'm in that mood even constructive replies won't be welcome. Whereas if I just go away they stop replying to me pretty fast and usually stop replying to each other faster than if I kept egging them on, however unintentionally. In this case, you might want to ask the moderators to lock the thread for you so nobody can make new replies. And on that note, unless you ask me another question, I will respect your wishes as I understand them and stop commenting on this thread.

Edited December 31, 2019 by Tanaqui

[Scarlett]

7 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

so why do people keep posting on this thread?   I asked a question, received answers, asked my friend, and received an answer.  I  was done - (pretty much implied it with my comment of "I'm not going to talk to her, because she's not ready"   as far as I was concerned, that was the end of the discussion - 

Then others would post comments directed at me.  (and they kept posting.).

 

I kept coming back to the thread to see if your friend replied to you. I guess I missed it.  What did she say?

[gardenmom5]

2 hours ago, Scarlett said:

I kept coming back to the thread to see if your friend replied to you. I guess I missed it.  What did she say?

She said knows her dds won't see it, as they've blocked her.   She claimed she's made these posts for herself.  I'm not going to try and get her to be introspective enough to examine why she's posting some of these things "for herself" to  FB.   that's what journals are for - and today it's easy to do an electronic format.

I find it sad.