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Math without a curriculum


LauraClark
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We're on break from school for a couple weeks, which always makes me reevaluate what I'm doing/work on doing things better.  Plus I'm enjoying reading the in-depth discussions on the general forum about the old-school ways of home educating.  Which leads me to math.  I LOVED math in school.  My 8 yo son hates it.  He thinks it's boring and it's the subject that takes up the most time (partly because he drags his feet, but partly just because it's the longest subject).  I'm using R&S curriculum right now and we're going through it pretty quickly (I don't assign every problem and sometimes we skip lessons).  Right now R&S has us learning the multiplication and division facts.  He definitely understands the concept, but just needs to work on memorizing (which I think is important).  So a couple of questions: how do you help your child enjoy math?  It never occurred to me that my children wouldn't like math since I loved it so much.  I'm not sure if it's just that it's not challenging enough (he says he doesn't want anything challenging, though...but I'm not sure he even knows what he wants).  Does anyone do math without a curriculum or loosely based on a curriculum?  R&S is pretty dry, but I feel like I would miss teaching him things if I went totally without a curriculum (like he'd be in highschool and I'd suddenly realize I never taught him how to read a clock - ha!).  Things I'm not interested in: spending a lot of money.  I don't want to switch curriculums or buy lots of flashy hands-on things. Square_25 : I feel like you would have suggestions!  Thanks!

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(I'm not feeling very well today and my thoughts are kinda all over the place. Hopefully, you can get the gist of what I'm trying to say.)

I like math but I don't like repeating and practicing the same skill ad naseum, as a student or as a teacher. It seems like every curriculum out there is either tries to beat the concept or formula into a kid's head with a mind-numbingly large number of practice problems EXCEPT when my kid needs more practice on something, then there isn't enough practice, sigh. I honestly believe that many kids don't hate math, they hate the way that it is traditionally taught.

Years ago, I bought Math on the Level (MOTL) when it first came out. I absolutely loved the idea that math didn't have to be one worksheet after another. I loved that we could stop and linger on a skill longer if needed or just cover it and be done and go on to the next thing if they get it immediately. If we run into a skill they just aren't ready to grapple with yet, we can skip it and go on to something else then come back to it later. We don't have to beat our heads on the wall for the next ten lessons because they all deal with the topic they aren't ready to absorb yet.

I don't reference the MOTL books much anymore. Not because they aren't useful but because I just don't really need to to be able to teach elementary school and middle school math any more now that I'm going through it for the 5th time. There are some down sides to this approach though. I definitely have to be on the ball more with their math than I would be if we had a traditional curriculum. I can't just open and go (well, I can now that I know lots of tricks from teaching my other kids but at first, it was a lot more work). I have to decide what they are ready to try and what they are not ready for. I also have to decide if it's time to just move on or stick with a topic until they get it. Those things alone can be exhausting much less coming up with practice problems and such.

I tend to make my own worksheets when I need them but there are lots of places to find math worksheets on every conceivable topic. But by making my own worksheets, I can customize the problems and any pictures I decide to include. For example, my youngest son is really into Minecraft right now so I customize his worksheets with Minecraft characters and pictures. Here is an old one I made probably a year ago:

2073952640_Week18day1.thumb.jpg.914ea5e3d505999a20122d96a0f4a834.jpg

I bought a Minecraft clipart kit off of Etsy I think it was and I just use it to decorate his worksheets when we use them. For my visually learning son, decorating his pages in something he really likes and making the problems reference his favorite things goes a long way toward keeping him engaged and enjoying math. I draw my practice problem problems from MOTL, Math Mammoth, Beast Academy and Evan-Moor's Daily Math Practice books. I think the worksheet above was based on a sheet from the last one.

We also do a lot of work orally or on a whiteboard. Even up into middle school, sometimes instead of a worksheet, we will just do a bunch of practice problems on the whiteboards. Just because we didn't create a paper trail every day, it doesn't mean that they didn't learn anything. Plus it keeps things from getting monotonous and predictable. We also play math games that I print off the internet. We are doing a lot of work with money right now so a lot of the games we are playing are about working with money. If you search "money games" on Teachers Pay Teachers, you will find tons of options on almost any topic.

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I do the handwritten worksheets in the notebook too. Especially as they get older. I've also been known to do the handwritten ones for littles and just use stickers as the "fun factor" for a kid that needs something more visually appealing. Some of my kids are/were perfectly fine with no-frills, just the facts pages. But others, making it colorful and fun makes all the difference in the world, or at the very least, the difference between getting it done and having to nag them to get it done.

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We have sometimes done math with a curriculum, and sometimes without, depending on our current mood and goals. We’ve found so many excellent math resources over the years, and most of them are more interesting than the vast majority of curriculum out there. We have taken long breaks from formal math programs and used math games, math puzzles, math videos, and hands-on math.

Math in the early years is pretty sequential: addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, fractions/decimals, exponents. You notice pretty quickly if a major concept is missing, because the child won’t be able to apply it to the next concept. There shouldn’t be much issue of missing an essential concept. 

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Lol, there is no way I can/could have drawn all those bears. I have arthritis so lots of writing or drawing leaves my hand in pain even with special pens and pencils for arthritic hands. All the writing/drawing you had to do there makes my hands start to hurt just looking at it. lol It is much easier for me to print out a bunch of b&w clipart and either make it into stickers with our Xyron machine or if it is too big for the machine, I'll glue it in the note book with either a glue stick or a glue runner. If I need it cut intricately, dh will cut it for me but most of the time I can use a paper cutter to cut a rectangle or square around what I need.

Writing it in the notebook definitely has its advantages too, I could write out a worksheet when my older kids were middle school age on the fly, in less than 5 minutes. Luckily, I enjoy making the colorful worksheets on the computer and I can usually make more than enough for the week ahead for one kid in an hour on a Sunday afternoon.

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9 minutes ago, square_25 said:

Whereas we don't have a printer, lol! I think we're both playing to our own strengths here ;-).

We have both a color inkjet printer and as of a few weeks ago when I found one on clearance for less than $100, a b&w laser printer. lol I cannot imagine trying to homeschool without a printer for more than a few weeks like when we had to pack it up for a move. Even then I would print up everything I thought I might need and then some before packing it up to get us through until I could hook up the printer again. lol

You are indeed a brave soul... or maybe just younger and more modern than me and have everything digitized. lol I love having lots of things digitally but there are a few that I'm just clinging to the old fashioned paper printouts lol. Gotten totally OT here though. Sorry OP, didn't mean to hijack your post. 

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Math On The Level gives a very thorough list of topics to be covered from preschool through pre-algebra that you can do in any order you like. But most if not all math programs at least give the table of contents in their samples. You could really pick any one you want and use the ToC as your guide for topics to cover if you wanted to be sure you didn't miss anything.

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3 minutes ago, square_25 said:

Hah, or maybe we're still unschooling most things with my 7 year old and I don't print that often! I've been making worksheets for my homeschooling classes for the last term, though, and longing for a printer. We'll probably buy one at some point... we have quite a small apartment, so I'm always a bit reluctant to get more stuff! 

We are, more or less, unschooling a soon-to-be 7yo (in less than a week) as well and I find that I print out more things when we unschool than when we are following a curriculum. Besides homemade worksheets, I print out primary lined paper to practice writing, we make books and we will print out covers and pictures to go in it, I printout games and mats to put in dry erase sleeves to learn about or practice topics in all subjects... then there's crafts and mazes and other random kid stuff I would print out even if we weren't homeschooling.

I've lived in a house overseas, less than 900 square feet, and we were a family of 6 back then, and I still had a printer. lol I think it is interesting what one family prioritizes over another when confined in a small space. Come to think of it, our current house isn't much more than 1000 sq ft and now we have two! lol

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I have nothing but the greatest respect for Square_25 as a math teacher and thinker... And we did a ton of outside the box, not part of a curriculum math at that age - often centering it more than we did the things we were doing with a curriculum.

But I honestly think that trying to do all of math long term without a curriculum is time consuming for no reason. It's a ton of effort for something that has already been done pretty well. Like, at one point, for various between programs reasons, I taught some basic skills - basic long division stuff - sans curriculum. I made the worksheets. It was so frickin tedious for me. And I did not do it as well as a good program would have.

So... I would say, ditch the RS if you need to. Ditch programs in general for awhile. But in the end, I would not personally recommend that long term for the vast majority of families. If you do feel you want something more open ended while you DIY it, then Math on the Level is an option, but it's a ton of money for what it is. I'd just have a program like Singapore or Math Mammoth and cannibalize it rather than try to do it all from scratch. That's hard enough work. Trying to literally write a math program is re-inventing the wheel.

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9 minutes ago, square_25 said:

 

My problem with that approach is that it actually unfortunately misses things. I mean, you'd miss those things even if you actually followed the curriculum, so maybe that's not a reasonable complaint. But, for example, almost every single program doesn't communicate the meaning of an equals sign very well. I think Miquon might be the only one I've seen that is careful about it. You'd think something fun and mathematical like Beast Academy would be careful about it, but it's not: practically every single equation is in the 

4+5 = 

form, which isn't good for the students overall. 

I might be advocating too much rigor, though :-). For us, though, being mindful of possible misconceptions from the start has been really helpful and has saved us time. 

Yeah, I think that might be splitting hairs a bit. Any teacher can (and should) make sure the meaning of the equals sign is understood no matter what curriculum or lack thereof they are using. I think many curricula assume that the students know what an equals sign really means. Of course, that isn't always the case, some teachers don't even understand the concept as simple as it is. I know this from having tutored education majors lol. Some kids understand the concept intuitively and some need to be taught explicitly but I don't think I could fault a program for not teaching it explicitly. But I've always made sure my kids understood the meaning from the beginning so I might not be the best person to evaluate curriculum based on that criteria.

As you said before though, you will notice when something is missing or not strong enough. And it is easy enough to fill in those holes and strengthen those concepts that are lagging as you go along. I don't see gaps as a problem honestly in any subject. So long as you are willing to watch out for them and fill them in as needed, they are nothing more than learning opportunities and very often can be used to show why you need that skill.

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16 minutes ago, square_25 said:

We have many, many notebooks for writing, we make books out of cardstock and staple them together, and my daughter doesn't really like games. 

We also have books full of crafts and mazes. So I guess I buy things instead of printing them, mostly? We have tons of kid stuff... it just didn't come from a printer. 

This is all kind of fascinating, lol. It IS interesting to see what people prioritize! 

Yeah, it sounds like it is easier for you to just buy a lot of things pre-made that we print because it is cheaper/easier for us to do it that way. I tried with youngest ds to transition to regular notebook paper but his handwriting went from acceptable for his age to illegible when we did that so I started out using the primary lined paper option on our printer to just print him paper as needed but of course it wasn't working well, ds thought the lines were spaced too far so we tried a few different styles of paper until we landed on some Australian style primary paper. He really liked it and his handwriting improved again significantly so I made some custom(of course lol) paper for him with a spacing of the lines that is comfortable for him (just slightly larger than wide ruler notebook paper) and now he is making progress with handwriting again with much less fuss over having to write.

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Piggybacking on what Farrar said, while we’ve done math both with and without curriculum, we always come back around to curriculum. When we aren’t using a curriculum, I’m pulling from multiple other math resources, or were truly shelving math altogether for a time. I don’t attempt to make my own math curriculum or worksheets.

I intentionally choose curriculum that has a lower time commitment for us, so that DD can move ahead without needing to spend so much time on the more straightforward parts of math. For her, that was Beast Academy, because the low amount of repetition (and me adjusting the curriculum to have even less repetition when appropriate for her) meant that she could finish a full level even if she only worked on it for a moderate amount of time 2-3 days/week. I could also see using Math Mammoth for a different kid, one who needed more repetition, and carefully selecting only the problems that the kid actually needed; MM worktexts are inexpensive, so I wouldn’t feel at all bad about not using a chunk of the program.

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@LauraClark I have had a couple of kids who needed to close books to focus on memorizing multiplication tables for a few weeks.  In terms of straight memorization, I like Math It's approach.  I used to own it, but I have recreated its general concept for my grandkids.

We play multiplication war, race to 100 and back, etc. There are lots of fun ways to practice multiplication. 

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1 hour ago, square_25 said:

 

I think that's a reasonable point. The reason to make your own worksheets is if you want to follow a different path, or if you want to adjust each day's work to the level or the interests of your current students. I personally find making a math lesson in the morning takes me less time than it would to find a worksheet that did precisely what I want, because I have a really good idea of what my daughter is having trouble with, conceptually, and Googling that would be more of a pain than writing it down. And I had a VERY specific idea of what sequence I wanted to follow, which didn't mesh with the standard sequence at all. However, if you're currently working on a standard procedure, then there's pretty much no reason to make things yourself. 

I see what you're saying... and when my kids were 7, I could have made the worksheets and that could have been okay. By the time they were 9 or 10, the times that I did it were time consuming beyond what they got out of it. By the time they were 11 or 12, it would have been far inferior to things I could find and deeply time consuming in a way that would not have been sustainable on a daily basis. Perhaps if I was much better at math - as I know you are - that time would be less at least a bit. But it would not be nothing, that's for sure. It also just begs the question... do I want to put my energy into coming up with practice problems for math or do I want to put it into the creative stuff. Like, I only have so much sheer energy for this whole endeavor. If I'm going to spend that on an elementary kid in math, I would much, much rather spend it on playing games, finding games, doing math projects and art alongside them, and actually teaching and working alongside them... and not on making the practice problems. One of the things I learned by really working good programs is that the order of problems and the way they're written in a good program has a rhyme and reason that me pulling numbers out of my head will not have. Even for an early elementary student... I guess I just don't see the time investment as anywhere near worth it, especially not when you've got to teach science, history, geography, reading, writing, basic skill stuff for life, and run your kid's social agenda and sports or dance or scouts or whatever they do. Homeschooling has so many moving pieces. One of the things I learned when my kids were young was not to pour too much into... again... trying to reinvent the wheel.

I'm not sure what sequence you're following that's literally different from every single thing out there (and there are so many elementary math programs, following so many sequences). I'm just dubious it's worth it long term - especially a couple of years down the line. And customizing a kid's path... that's beyond easy to do with a decent textbook and a decent conceptual understanding. When my kids were that little, we were still mostly in Miquon and the path was definitely pretty individualized, because that's what Miquon let us do.

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Not to offer you another curriculum, but have you seen Dimensions Math?  We are really liking it.  It's brand new, so I think they just now got all the levels out.  I'm only able to use it for dd12, because it only goes to a certain point.

Have you seen any of these sites?  And, yes, I taught awhile without using a curriculum for math when they were little.  You just have to kinda know what you're doing (or do a lot of reading).  I still have an entire bookshelf of living math books, math dice, math games - they were awesome.  A lot of fun.  Math doesn't have to be painful.  lol  

https://www.livingmath.net/#

http://www.educationunboxed.com

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/20503283-murderous-maths-box-set-se   (It's on Amazon)

https://www.goodreads.com/series/71584-sir-cumference  (these are all at our library)

http://www.drwrightskitchentablemath.com/

https://pambarnhill.com/flying-without-parachute-math-with-no/

https://blessedlybusy.com/how-math-without-a-curriculum/

https://www.navigatingbyjoy.com/2014/04/07/maths-without-curriculum/

http://nourishedandnurtured.blogspot.com/2016/02/teaching-elementary-math-without-formal.html

 

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Wow - thanks for all the feedback and ideas everyone!

20 hours ago, Jackie said:

We have sometimes done math with a curriculum, and sometimes without, depending on our current mood and goals. We’ve found so many excellent math resources over the years, and most of them are more interesting than the vast majority of curriculum out there. We have taken long breaks from formal math programs and used math games, math puzzles, math videos, and hands-on math.

Math in the early years is pretty sequential: addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, fractions/decimals, exponents. You notice pretty quickly if a major concept is missing, because the child won’t be able to apply it to the next concept. There shouldn’t be much issue of missing an essential concept. 

Maybe a break is really what we need right now.  It's helpful that several people have mentioned that I'll notice if I miss something major.  He's asked some questions about negative numbers which I've kind of put off to "we'll learn that later", but maybe we'll jump into that tomorrow and see if that sparks some interest.

@square_25 and @sweet2ndchance: thanks for the worksheet examples.  Approximately how much time does math take for your kids?  We're at probably 30 minutes (I don't assign all of the problems in each R&S lesson - maybe 1/3), and I'm wondering if the time spent on math is maybe part of the problem here.

17 hours ago, Farrar said:

Also, I just realized the OP is using Rod and Staff, not Right Start. I totally misread the R's and S's and missed the & in there. Ugh, yes, please drop that no matter what else you end up doing.

Ha - there sure is a lot of hatred for R&S!  Honestly, I've looked at other curriculum and really considered Saxon when we first started, but math is math is math.  You can add color and little cartoon characters, but in the end your kids still have to sum 34+25 whether it's in plain black and white or bold red comic sans font with a colorful bear next to it 😃.  

 

19 hours ago, Farrar said:

But I honestly think that trying to do all of math long term without a curriculum is time consuming for no reason. It's a ton of effort for something that has already been done pretty well. Like, at one point, for various between programs reasons, I taught some basic skills - basic long division stuff - sans curriculum. I made the worksheets. It was so frickin tedious for me. And I did not do it as well as a good program would have.

That's something I've been thinking about too - the time involved...  I just had a baby, I don't even know why I'm thinking about taking this on right now, but it just really bothers me that DS8 hates math so much.  But, maybe, like you suggested, taking a break from the curriculum would be helpful.

 

3 hours ago, Evanthe said:

Not to offer you another curriculum, but have you seen Dimensions Math?  We are really liking it.  It's brand new, so I think they just now got all the levels out.  I'm only able to use it for dd12, because it only goes to a certain point.

Have you seen any of these sites?  And, yes, I taught awhile without using a curriculum for math when they were little.  You just have to kinda know what you're doing (or do a lot of reading).  I still have an entire bookshelf of living math books, math dice, math games - they were awesome.  A lot of fun.  Math doesn't have to be painful.  lol  

Thank you!  I'm slowly going through the list of links you provided.  

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4 hours ago, LauraClark said:

Ha - there sure is a lot of hatred for R&S!  Honestly, I've looked at other curriculum and really considered Saxon when we first started, but math is math is math.  You can add color and little cartoon characters, but in the end your kids still have to sum 34+25 whether it's in plain black and white or bold red comic sans font with a colorful bear next to it 😃.  

 

 

As to this, I disagree. All math is absolutely not created equal. Several people have been having a discussion about what makes for a great math education in this thread. There are vast differences in how programs teach students to sum 34+25, those differences make a huge difference in people’s ability to actually understand math, and that understanding can have a big impact on a person’s enjoyment of math.

Those differences are why there are such strong negative opinions about programs like R&S and Saxon. These programs are focused on drill, not conceptual understanding. It is not about color or cartoon characters. Math Mammoth is about as visually boring as you can get, but is still a strong math program.

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2 hours ago, square_25 said:

 

Do you want the list of games I've used with my homeschool classes? I've been a bit disappointed by the average games people suggest, because a lot of them are flashcards in disguise and don't actually require active engagement with the ideas. But there are definitely excellent math games out there, too :-). And 

I would love your game suggestions if you have time!

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You've gotten a lot of good advice so far. Here are a few more things you may want to think about...

(1) Your son is only eight years old. He has plenty of time to learn math. Things he doesn't get now will be much easier after he's matured a bit. This age is a great time to take breaks and follow rabbit trails. You can come back to your curriculum between the breaks, but don't feel bound to it. Here are some ideas for blending math adventure with ongoing practice. See also How to Talk Math with Your Kids.

(2) You don't have to change curriculum, unless you decide you want to. You can use any curriculum in a way that builds mathematical thinking, if you do it the "buddy math" way.

(3) Games are often better than worksheets for providing lots of practice to develop mastery of a topic. Kids enjoy them and don't realize how much math they're doing as they play. I've posted lots of games on my blog that require nothing other than what you already have around the house: cards, dice, pencil and paper, etc. See also Learning the Math Facts.

(4) Math is a much wider and wilder country than the "tame" bits included in a curriculum. And often, kids find those wild, unexplored areas much more interesting than basic arithmetic. Math that captures a child's imagination can make the tedious stuff seem more bearable. Living math books are a great way to explore.

(5) With or without a curriculum, your son will have gaps in his knowledge. That's the human condition. But if he learns to enjoy learning, then gaps can be filled as needed, when he discovers them, even in high school or adulthood. The main thing now is for him to learn that math is "figure-out-able."

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Math is always one of our biggest time sinks not because we do or don't use a program but because I consider it important. I devote most of our school time to the 3 r's. The rest is just gravy. When we are in a difficult season of life, like just having had a baby, we touch base on the 3r's and then watch educational tv together (PBS kids is get for the elementary school age child) or listen to audiobooks together, or I will read aloud when I'm nursing the baby. Reading aloud is good for both your older kids and the baby! 

Thirty minutes actually is less than what we do. We do around an hour or so of math but broken up into 15 - 20 minute bites throughout the day. So we may spend one session on a worksheet that is nothing but review for 20 mins in the morning. Then we will play with whatever math concept we are currently working on for 20 mins or so after lunch. Then in the evening after dinner, we might play a game. It might be a game you can get at Wally World or it might be something from Ravensberger or Learning Resources or sometimes it's an online math game of some sort or sometimes it is a game from TPT or some other online sort that I printed out. We are working a lot on counting coins right now. Two of his favorite games at the moment are Don't Break the Bank and Coin War. (I'm on my phone right now and it is hard to link but I will add links later) I found those by Googling the skill I wanted him to get more practice on, in this case "counting coins", and the word "game" and I literally had more choices than we could possibly use. Oh another one he likes is Race to a Dollar. But really, you can enter any math skill and add the word game and then Google it. You can find quick and easy or very elaborate games as fast as you can click on them.

I agree with the posters above, you just had a baby, he's only eight, still a baby himself really, and math is important but so is your sanity and your relationship with your son. It is okay to take a break until you have recovered and maybe getting to sleep more than just a couple of hours at a time. I can tell you from experience that everything will be fine. My grown kids, 21, 19 and 18 now are all competent young adults holding jobs and the 18yo is going to school as well as working. None of them suffered any life altering consequences from taking several months off from formal school when their younger siblings (currently 13, 11 and 7) were born. I remember questioning myself too when I was in your shoes but I can tell you now that it all worked out just fine and you would never know we took breaks when ever we needed them. The 18yo is my math whiz even. She has always scored in the upper 90th percentiles on standardized tests in math. My 19yo regularly wowed his LA teachers when he went to public school in Jr high/high school because even though he had a LA based learning disability, given the proper supports for that disability, he was regularly in the top of his class. My oldest was just an average student but he still loves to read and write stories that fill entire notebooks. They may not be on their way to being rocket scientists but I consider them all to be successful. They are competent young adults able to manage on their own in society and for the most part, doing what they love or on their way to doing what they love. 

Got off on a tangent there, but whether you decide to stick with your math program (which by the way, I also disagree with the "math is math" sentiment but this post is long enough already) or venture in to winging it on your own, make sure you and your son are getting enough rest to properly focus on a lesson without dissolving into tears. If baby is demanding attention 24/7 still, you can take a break until things are more settled and baby is in a good routine. Even teachers in schools get at least 6 weeks to start feeling human again. You might not have the luxury of having a sub fill in for you but I promise your son will still be fine at his young age.

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I think part of the issue might be that you think, as you said, that math is math is math and you seem to think that differences between curricula are just window dressing. Let me assure you that that’s simply not true. Take a look at a program like Right Start or Miquon or MEP or Beast Academy. The differences there from what you’re doing with R&S are not window dressing. They have to do with depth, approach, types of problems, scope and sequence... it’s meaningful differences. Even a program like Singapore or Math Mammoth may look not that different, but there’s a different philosophy under the hood. I think much of the discussion in this thread has focused on the practical end of choosing the right math program (or going without one) and that is super important. However, that is the bells and whistles to some extent - the layout or style that hooks you. But there are also deeper philosophical differences between programs.

It’s not recommended like it used to be on these boards, but Liping Ma’s Knowing and Teaching Elementary Mathematics might be a good read for you. Especially the first half is a quick read and may help you see why basic approach really matters. You might also pull up some of the things by AoPS’s Richard Rusczyk - the way he talks about kids’ need to attempt problems that they won’t necessarily be able to solve is great.

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On 12/29/2019 at 5:12 PM, Jackie said:

All math is absolutely not created equal ... There are vast differences in how programs teach students to sum 34+25, those differences make a huge difference in people’s ability to actually understand math, and that understanding can have a big impact on a person’s enjoyment of math.

Those differences are why there are such strong negative opinions about programs like R&S and Saxon. These programs are focused on drill, not conceptual understanding. It is not about color or cartoon characters. Math Mammoth is about as visually boring as you can get, but is still a strong math program.

 

2 hours ago, Farrar said:

I think part of the issue might be that you think, as you said, that math is math is math and you seem to think that differences between curricula are just window dressing. Let me assure you that that’s simply not true. Take a look at a program like Right Start or Miquon or MEP or Beast Academy. The differences there from what you’re doing with R&S are not window dressing. They have to do with depth, approach, types of problems, scope and sequence... it’s meaningful differences. Even a program like Singapore or Math Mammoth may look not that different, but there’s a different philosophy under the hood ...

 

Awhile back, I wrote a series of blog posts expanding on what Jackie and Farrar are talking about. There are two very different ways to look at learning and understanding math, and the perspective you choose will make a world of difference to your child's future.

If you're interested, you can find my articles here: Understanding Math: A Cultural Problem.

While I said earlier that you can teach mathematical understanding with any curriculum, there are some that make it easier than others.

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On 12/28/2019 at 12:00 PM, LauraClark said:

We're on break from school for a couple weeks, which always makes me reevaluate what I'm doing/work on doing things better.  Plus I'm enjoying reading the in-depth discussions on the general forum about the old-school ways of home educating....

Right now R&S has us learning the multiplication and division facts.  He definitely understands the concept, but just needs to work on memorizing (which I think is important).  So a couple of questions: how do you help your child enjoy math?

Does anyone do math without a curriculum or loosely based on a curriculum?

R&S is pretty dry, but I feel like I would miss teaching him things if I went totally without a curriculum (like he'd be in highschool and I'd suddenly realize I never taught him how to read a clock - ha!).  Things I'm not interested in: spending a lot of money.  I don't want to switch curriculums or buy lots of flashy hands-on things. Square_25 : I feel like you would have suggestions!  Thanks!

1) There is no "set" way to help a person enjoy math. Different people might have their interest hooked by different things. Of course there is always the possibility that your child is a person who, ultimately, will not like mathematics for mathematics sake in the end. If that turns out to be the case, it doesn't mean that you used the wrong curriculum, or that you used the right curriculum incorrectly or anything like that.

2) It is by far much easier and more efficient to simply augment the instruction and/or problem sets in a math book that has already been written, than to create something completely customizable.

Doing math off the cuff can be done--and well--but it's not really an approach that I'd recommend unless you have the knowledge, experience, time and energy to do it well for a year+.
I have 2 kids and they are very close in age and are academically capable of a lot of the same academic work. There were quite a few topics or subtopics in math that I wanted introduced or exercised in a very specific way. Other times there were topics that I wanted to introduce them to, but aren't a part of the typical scope/sequence or wouldn't have been introduced at a time that was convenient for us.

By age/grade The Boys are in middle school but we've done a lot of math and I've had to "DIY" a lot of math teaching and have customized a lot of math lessons for them over the years.

At various points in the mathematics curriculum/continuum, I've taught The Boys (and occassionally Tutees) using

  • my own explanations and home made problem sets,
  • my own explanations and 3rd-party problem sets,
  • using 3rd-party explanations and problem sets.

In my experiences it's easier to write a few lessons to explain or teach a few key concepts, and write customized problem-sets and exercises to fill specific needs than it is to write an entire math program. I really don't recommend creating a customized math curriculum by hand unless you have the knowledge, time, energy and experience to do it well. There is no need to pour that type of time and energy into this project if you run a very likely risk of producing a mediocre project.

I don't want that last part to sound snide, superior or anything like that. It's just plain old logistics.

If I ever wound up HSing another kid or crop of kids, I wouldn't create a customize math textbook for them. I'd use my own explanations and ready-made 3rd-party text for problem sets and exercises and just use my customized lessons/exercises where they fit.

 

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18 hours ago, letsplaymath said:

While I said earlier that you can teach mathematical understanding with any curriculum, there are some that make it easier than others.

 

Not meaning to sidetrack the thread too much, but the issue I find with this is that it assumes the parent/teacher has an understanding of the math, and that is not always the situation. I mean nothing here regarding the OP’s understanding of math, of which I have no knowledge; it is a general observation. I have seen and heard some atrocious explanations of arithmetic from people who are trying to teach what they never actually understood themselves, starting all the way back from “carrying/borrowing” concepts in first and second grade.

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5 minutes ago, Jackie said:

Not meaning to sidetrack the thread too much, but the issue I find with this is that it assumes the parent/teacher has an understanding of the math, and that is not always the situation.

 

For this reason, it's a good idea to choose a homeschool curriculum based on which one best helps the parent understand math, not which one is most attractive to the child. But I also think that one of the great things about homeschooling is how we parents grow and learn along with our kids, especially on the topics we didn't quite get during our own school days.

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On 12/29/2019 at 8:59 PM, letsplaymath said:

(3) Games are often better than worksheets for providing lots of practice to develop mastery of a topic. Kids enjoy them and don't realize how much math they're doing as they play. I've posted lots of games on my blog that require nothing other than what you already have around the house: cards, dice, pencil and paper, etc. See also Learning the Math Facts.

Thank you so much for all this (and the rest too, I just shortened the quote)!  I've got all these bookmarked and am slowly working through them.  Already I've found a game that I'm wanting to try instead of the normal multiplication drill.  I think maybe if we can keep going through the curriculum (as far as concepts), but do them in a fun way that might be at least part of the solution I'm looking for right now.

 

On 12/30/2019 at 8:08 AM, sweet2ndchance said:

Thirty minutes actually is less than what we do. We do around an hour or so of math but broken up into 15 - 20 minute bites throughout the day. So we may spend one session on a worksheet that is nothing but review for 20 mins in the morning. Then we will play with whatever math concept we are currently working on for 20 mins or so after lunch. Then in the evening after dinner, we might play a game. 

I agree with the posters above, you just had a baby, he's only eight, still a baby himself really, and math is important but so is your sanity and your relationship with your son. It is okay to take a break until you have recovered and maybe getting to sleep more than just a couple of hours at a time. I can tell you from experience that everything will be fine.

Thank you - maybe having him do it all at once is a little much.  I'll think on how I can break it up into a couple segments during the day instead.  Also, thank you for the encouragement - it is so helpful to have others who have been through it tell me that the end will be ok.

 

21 hours ago, Farrar said:

I think part of the issue might be that you think, as you said, that math is math is math and you seem to think that differences between curricula are just window dressing. Let me assure you that that’s simply not true. Take a look at a program like Right Start or Miquon or MEP or Beast Academy. The differences there from what you’re doing with R&S are not window dressing. They have to do with depth, approach, types of problems, scope and sequence... it’s meaningful differences. Even a program like Singapore or Math Mammoth may look not that different, but there’s a different philosophy under the hood. I think much of the discussion in this thread has focused on the practical end of choosing the right math program (or going without one) and that is super important. However, that is the bells and whistles to some extent - the layout or style that hooks you. But there are also deeper philosophical differences between programs.

It’s not recommended like it used to be on these boards, but Liping Ma’s Knowing and Teaching Elementary Mathematics might be a good read for you. Especially the first half is a quick read and may help you see why basic approach really matters. You might also pull up some of the things by AoPS’s Richard Rusczyk - the way he talks about kids’ need to attempt problems that they won’t necessarily be able to solve is great.

I'll look into Liping Ma's book.  I guess what I mean by "math is math" is that in the end you have to answer the same math questions.  I don't usually even use R&S's teaching manual.  I pretty much just teach all the concepts how I want to, anyway.  But, maybe it's worth a second (third...fourth?) look at other programs.  Maybe they would add a lot to my understanding.  Thank you!

 

17 hours ago, Gil said:

I don't want that last part to sound snide, superior or anything like that. It's just plain old logistics.

If I ever wound up HSing another kid or crop of kids, I wouldn't create a customize math textbook for them. I'd use my own explanations and ready-made 3rd-party text for problem sets and exercises and just use my customized lessons/exercises where they fit.

 

Thank you - that is helpful advice!  I guess when I first started this I was just feeling frustrated and blaming the curriculum.  But, maybe it's me not explaining things well/not adding in fun things...but you're right, probably doing my own curriculum is not in my son's (or my) best interest.

 

18 hours ago, Ellie said:

Yeah, I've seen that before.  I agree: fascinating.  I think I have mixed opinions about it.

 

3 hours ago, square_25 said:

I will absolutely make a list with links for you in a few days! Sorry, we've been traveling but still trying to keep up with schoolwork, so it's been hard to find time. 

I think one absolutely crucial suggestion I'll make is that you should let your son use manipulatives for as long as he finds it helpful, until he can explain perfectly with or without manipulatives. For example, how would he explain how he adds 34 and 45? How about 46 and 57? How would he explain 60 - 59? 

Thank you!  That's a good point.  I've shown him with manipulatives, but I don't think he completely understood it and would explain 46+57 the standard way (adding the ones place, carrying-over, then adding the tens).  Maybe that's something I'll go back to while we're breaking from the curriculum.

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On 12/31/2019 at 12:07 AM, Ellie said:

My biggest issue with the Benezet experiment/article is that so many families who are rah-rah for it just say, no curriculum is fine, see, read this article, and then use it to justify doing absolutely nothing at all for math. The kids in that experiment had a ton of math exposure and work, just not with a formal program. Which goes to show that you can make that work - if you're willing to put in the amount of time that Benezet did in structuring experiences for kids to get them to understand math without worksheets and books.

I just think... like I said upthread a few times... that for most families, doing the legwork on long term it is simply not worth a homeschool parent's energy. And I say this as someone who believes in getting down into it and really teaching your kids and taking time to go down rabbit trails and so forth. Like, if I have to respond to one more "We've tried everything - Teaching Textbooks, Beast Academy Online, IXL, Khan Academy, etc. - and nothing is working for my elementary student with math!" post on certain groups by saying, "Have you tried using something that is not computer based and, ya know, actually teaching your kid and working with them on math concepts?!?" then I'm going to lose it. But there's a difference between doing an ounce of that across the board and doing it ton of it in a single subject - I think it makes you too weary to do a bit of that magic making across the board for most parents. Plus, as Square25 suggested, if you can do a curriculum well and connect it to the real world, then you're doing a world of good for your kid.

Honestly, I'd be more inclined to support a classroom math teacher - especially if math was their primary subject - in going without any program at all - than an individual homeschooler trying to juggle all the stuff I know we juggle.

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1 hour ago, square_25 said:

Hmmm, interesting. I would personally be somewhat concerned about this, because if he can't explain with manipulatives, what does he think he's doing when he's "carrying" the ones? I know not everyone agrees with me, but I don't think it's all that useful to teach the algorithm before a child can do this with manipulatives and knows exactly what the steps mean. I'd work on this, personally. 

 

Wow-thank you so much for all these ideas!  My plan is to work on place value this week (maybe with both my older boys) as well as addition/subtraction with place value manipulatives.  I'll add in some games too.  I'm really excited about taking a break from curriculum for a bit and doing some more hands on and fun activities instead.  I really can't thank each of you enough!!

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  • 3 months later...

Wanted to update everyone: we took a couple months off the curriculum we were using and just did some math related games and I made some of my own worksheets.  He seemed to enjoy it a bit more.  We've started back to the curriculum and his enjoyment is much better than it was in December.  I think school in general is not his favorite thing (maybe I didn't enjoy it at his age either, I don't remember).  DS 6 is struggling to focus on math right now so I'm going to take a break with him now and do something else for a bit.  Basically, I just wanted to say thanks: this post gave me a ton of ideas, permission to take a break, and encouragement that I didn't need to recreate the math curriculum wheel.  I have a feeling this will be a recurring cycle of doing the curriculum, taking a break, back to the curriculum - and I'm ok with that now.  So, thanks everyone!

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