Barton or Logic of English

[6Acorns]

Currently using LOE Foundations B with dyslexic dd9. Anyone here used loe and then switched to Barton who could compare the 2? I really like loe and she is making progress, but it is slow going. This is probably just because life is hard and she is dyslexic for goodness sake? Or I am not consistent enough? (I am never consistent enough). Ooooorrrr, she needs a different program? Barton? Would love to hear your experiences. I have read a lot of the other threads about Barton--great stuff. But not as much about loe. Thanks

[ktgrok]

With a dyslexic child it is important to use a program for dyslexic children, in my opinion. First step though is to educate yourself on how the brain learns to read, so you can teach effectively. Equipped for Reading Success by Kilpatrick would be the best resource for that. 

Then either Barton or a Phonographix program like Abecedarian. Abecedarian is faster for a kid that is frustrated and wants to read better sooner. It's also significantly cheaper. But some kids need Barton. But not much lost if you try Abecedarian since it is so much less expensive, and it really is fantastic. 

But read the book I listed first. 

[PeterPan]

You might go ahead and do the Barton screening, just to make sure it's not showing up anything https://bartonreading.com/students/#ss  That would explain a lot if she fails the screening. 

So I haven't used LOE, but I've used a ton of other stuff from working with my (non-dyslexic) dd that I tried just enough to have some experiences with. You want the instruction to feel like a right fit, like they're progressing, they're not spinning their wheels. Barton is going to break down those steps so small that each time the next step will be within reach. So when you're saying it's a slog, I don't think you'll find Barton feels that way. Maybe someone else's experience is different, but that to me is the indication of a poor fit. It doesn't have to feel that way, no.

It's easier to be consistent when the program is highly structured (open and go, idiotproof) and when it's going well. The success you'll have with a more dyslexia-specific program will probably motivate you.

Edited December 13, 2019 by PeterPan

[6Acorns]

5 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

The success you'll have with a more dyslexia-specific program will probably motivate you.

This is such a good point

[6Acorns]

11 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Phonographix program like Abecedarian. Abecedarian is faster for a kid that is frustrated and wants to read better sooner. It's also significantly cheaper

I will look at these. Not familiar to me. Thank you

[ktgrok]

Just now, 6Acorns said:

I will look at these. Not familiar to me. Thank you

Yeah, the two big methods are Orton Gillingham and Phonographix. Phonographix is more efficient, and we've found it to work really well. Abecedarian is phonographic mostly, with some variations. The owner/creator is amazing and will do email consults if you hit a roadblock, etc. They have "short" versions of the various levels so that an older child who already knows basic sounds, can sound out short vowel words, etc can move more quickly, which is nice. 

Oh and if you use it - you MUST also use the free stuff on the website that supplements the workbooks. They really add to it. 

[Jentrovert]

I used LOE with my kids, dd8 and ds 6. With dd I used A, B, and part of C and A, part of B with ds.

When they were dx'd with dyslexia this summer, I switched to Barton, primarily because of advice I received here. I had already slowed down and adapted LOE as much as I could, and it wasn't working. In retrospect, it was a total slog. 

While LOE is explicit phonics, it is nowhere near as explicit and incremental as Barton. LOE moves much too quickly (it really picks up in C) and gives an amount of information that is too overwhelming.

But it's not just the pace and increments. Barton is just TOTALLY different. I am so very glad I switched. I can already see a difference in both my kids, and I definitely do NOT think that continuing with LOE would have worked. 

Having the right tools for the job makes all the difference. I won't say that it's exactly easy now, but it's certainly no longer a slog and I am seeing consistent improvement, which I did not see with LOE. Both kids just hit a wall with LOE.

Go ahead and do the screening on the Barton website. If she doesn't pass, it will give you more info. And if she does, then you'll know Barton is an option now and can decide.

[ktgrok]

Just now, Jentrovert said:

I used LOE with my kids, dd8 and ds 6. With dd I used A, B, and part of C and A, part of B with ds.

When they were dx'd with dyslexia this summer, I switched to Barton, primarily because of advice I received here. I had already slowed down and adapted LOE as much as I could, and it wasn't working. In retrospect, it was a total slog. 

While LOE is explicit phonics, it is nowhere near as explicit and incremental as Barton. LOE moves much too quickly (it really picks up in C) and gives an amount of information that is too overwhelming.

But it's not just the pace and increments. Barton is just TOTALLY different. I am so very glad I switched. I can already see a difference in both my kids, and I definitely do NOT think that continuing with LOE would have worked. 

Having the right tools for the job makes all the difference. I won't say that it's exactly easy now, but it's certainly no longer a slog and I am seeing consistent improvement, which I did not see with LOE. Both kids just hit a wall with LOE.

Go ahead and do the screening on the Barton website. If she doesn't pass, it will give you more info. And if she does, then you'll know Barton is an option now and can decide.

This. Phonics is only one part of the remediation with a dyslexic student. They also need phonemic awareness work as well as word study to help with orthographic mapping. LOE does some, in the lower level, but not enough for a dyslexic student. 

[ElizabethB]

1 hour ago, Ktgrok said:

This. Phonics is only one part of the remediation with a dyslexic student. They also need phonemic awareness work as well as word study to help with orthographic mapping. LOE does some, in the lower level, but not enough for a dyslexic student. 

And if you need extensive phonemic awareness (PA) work, you need to do PA before your phonics program.  You can use the PAST test to check, and the Barton pre-screening.

https://www.thepasttest.com

My dyslexic students do well with syllables, and some have been fine with Abecedarian instead of a more expensive and slower OG program, but if their underlying PA skills are not there, you need to fix that first or nothing you choose will work well.

You could try my free syllables program and see if it helps:

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On Reading/syllablesspellsu.html

Also, some students can switch to Abecedarian after the first few levels of Barton, again, it's much cheaper and much faster.  I've also had students able to use a variety of regular phonics programs after fixing PA, but Abecedarian is probably the safest bet for a regular program.

 

Edited December 13, 2019 by ElizabethB

[ktgrok]

6 hours ago, ElizabethB said:

And if you need extensive phonemic awareness (PA) work, you need to do PA before your phonics program.  You can use the PAST test to check, and the Barton pre-screening.

https://www.thepasttest.com

My dyslexic students do well with syllables, and some have been fine with Abecedarian instead of a more expensive and slower OG program, but if their underlying PA skills are not there, you need to fix that first or nothing you choose will work well.

You could try my free syllables program and see if it helps:

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On Reading/syllablesspellsu.html

Also, some students can switch to Abecedarian after the first few levels of Barton, again, it's much cheaper and much faster.  I've also had students able to use a variety of regular phonics programs after fixing PA, but Abecedarian is probably the safest bet for a regular program.

 

That's what we ended up doing - first level of Barton and then Abecedarian Short A, and then regular B1, B2. She worked her butt off and then we took a break, at the advice of the owner, to have her read a lot of material at that level and work on fluency and confidence while continuing to review the free materials on their website. We then moved on to the level C which is where we are now. 

I will say we did not see as big a jump in her spelling, but the difference is that before she had no idea how to spell things, now she at least got a good phonetic approximation when she tried. So now we are working more on spelling using the info the owner of Abecedarian gave me, the Super Speller program from Phonographix (sort of- not using it as designed), the spelling sorting pages from Language Lessons for a Living Education, etc. All of those have her doing word sorts based on spelling patterns and force her to pay attention to the middle of the words, not just the beginning and end. This is to retrain the brain to focus on those parts. We have also done the first two levels of AAS. 

I may pick up Words Their Way when we finish this. And now, thanks to the Equipped for Reading Success book and the advice of the owner of Abecedarian I'm able to help her whenever she asks me how to spell a word. I make sure to stop and show her how each sound is made, not just the letters, then have her read just the rime unit, then maybe just the vowel sound, etc. It seems our brain stores words by rime unit, and by first letter, not by spelling concept. So the AAS method of using rule based lists helped her learn the rules ,but not remember how to spell the words, if that makes sense. 

[6Acorns]

8 hours ago, Jentrovert said:

the right tools for the job makes all the difference. I won't say that it's exactly easy now, but it's certainly no longer a slog and I am seeing consistent improvement, which I did not see with LOE. Both kids just hit a wall with LOE.

This is so helpful. Exactly the experience I needed to hear

[6Acorns]

Just heard from a friend that she has all the level of Barton and is ready to sell. Only thing is they are probably 10+/- years old. Have they been revised? Do you think I will have trouble because of being out of date?

[Jentrovert]

I purchased mine new this year. I just looked at the Level 2 manual and it says copyright 2000, printed in 2014. So I don't think I'd worry about it being 10 years old. Is it all intact (all the tiles, dvds)?

Unless it's a really good deal, I don't know that I would purchase all the levels at once. While at this moment I plan to continue through Barton, as mentioned above, you may find that you can do a few levels and then change to something less expensive and/or faster.

[Jentrovert]

1 hour ago, Ktgrok said:

I will say we did not see as big a jump in her spelling, but the difference is that before she had no idea how to spell things, now she at least got a good phonetic approximation when she tried. 

I forgot to mention spelling . . . Dd is in Level 3 now, and I've seen a lot of improvement in spelling. She's always spelled phonetically, but would very often leave out vowels and/or skip sounds. It's improved a great deal. I think it's been due to the finger-spelling and vowel-tapping in Barton. She's forced to slow down and is able to hear vowel sounds more clearly. 

[ktgrok]

2 hours ago, Jentrovert said:

I forgot to mention spelling . . . Dd is in Level 3 now, and I've seen a lot of improvement in spelling. She's always spelled phonetically, but would very often leave out vowels and/or skip sounds. It's improved a great deal. I think it's been due to the finger-spelling and vowel-tapping in Barton. She's forced to slow down and is able to hear vowel sounds more clearly. 

Oh, see Molly is getting all the sounds, but she doesn't always know which letter combination to use. So for the sound /u/ it might be a U, or an O, or a schwa sound with an E, etc. Sometimes there are rules, but sometimes you just have to remember, and that's where we are at. 

[PeterPan]

6 hours ago, 6Acorns said:

Just heard from a friend that she has all the level of Barton and is ready to sell. Only thing is they are probably 10+/- years old. Have they been revised? Do you think I will have trouble because of being out of date?

They're fine, buy them!!! The price just went up $50 for new, so you're talking an astonishing savings. And yes, should be fine, unchanged.

If it bugs you, call Barton and talk it through with her. She's a dear, and if you just call (she's in CA, she'll be in), she'll literally just talk with you. 

Edited December 13, 2019 by PeterPan

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, Ktgrok said:

Oh, see Molly is getting all the sounds, but she doesn't always know which letter combination to use. So for the sound /u/ it might be a U, or an O, or a schwa sound with an E, etc. Sometimes there are rules, but sometimes you just have to remember, and that's where we are at. 

Have you had her vision checked? When my dd's spelling was crunchy, turned out she had terrible visual memory. She had convergence issues, sure, but one of the results was that her visual memory hadn't developed properly. 

So while dyslexia isn't a vision problem, you can have a vision problem on top of it, making it worse. 

[Terabith]

5 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

Oh, see Molly is getting all the sounds, but she doesn't always know which letter combination to use. So for the sound /u/ it might be a U, or an O, or a schwa sound with an E, etc. Sometimes there are rules, but sometimes you just have to remember, and that's where we are at. 

Yeah, my kid did through book 12 of Wilson, spells totally phonetically and follows the rules, but which phonogram or pattern she chooses is pretty much random.  She reads fine but her spelling, while MASSIVELY improved, just can't break past that 3rd grade level-ish.  It's good enough that spellcheck works, though, and at 14, I think we're done with serious remediation.  It's definitely a visual memory issue, but we were massively burned on VT and that ain't happening again, ever.  

Edited December 13, 2019 by Terabith

[ElizabethB]

12 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

Oh, see Molly is getting all the sounds, but she doesn't always know which letter combination to use. So for the sound /u/ it might be a U, or an O, or a schwa sound with an E, etc. Sometimes there are rules, but sometimes you just have to remember, and that's where we are at. 

I have percentages.  Usually only older boys really bad at spelling and really good at math find them helpful, but you could use them and guide her through the most common sound for things that it really makes a difference for, with overwhelming percentages for one spelling, or for a spelling based on position.

You could also her them spell while looking at the chart for a while and see if that helps, guiding her through it at first.  The percentages are based on the most common 17,000 words in English.

http://www.thephonicspage.org/Phonics Lsns/phonogramsoundch.html

Edited December 14, 2019 by ElizabethB

[ktgrok]

19 hours ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

Another thing I'd take into account is how much instruction YOU need to teach her. Do you need extensive explanations and scripting, or are you more comfortable and can wing it once you review some websites, videos and then add in the remediation she needs? For me that's another + in the Barton column. I need those videos- I need the tutor tips. I need the scripting. I love knowing I can literally call or email Barton and get help. Maybe even from Mrs. Barton herself!

But if you are the type that hates scripting and very step by step, and many people are, Barton would drive you insane. Maybe your friend can let you preview one? 

Good point! We do better with less scripting. I will say that Abecedarian will also respond personally to you - the owner has emailed with me multiple times now with very personalized suggestions to help my DD - including always mentioning other products, not just his own, and even offered to Skype with her and I directly when she was struggling with the transition to multi syllable words. (we didn't need to - his advice to stay where we were for a bit until her fluency was up and more importantly, her confidence  was up - worked. We used on his suggestion the Quick Reads program and such and then moved into the multi syllable words without problem..I was just pushing a bit too fast)

17 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Have you had her vision checked? When my dd's spelling was crunchy, turned out she had terrible visual memory. She had convergence issues, sure, but one of the results was that her visual memory hadn't developed properly. 

So while dyslexia isn't a vision problem, you can have a vision problem on top of it, making it worse. 

we have - she actually has better visual memory than phonetic memory although that's not saying much, lol. But something to perhaps reevaluate again. But it seems to be the dyslexia part, not visual. in fact, she's at the place now where she often will write it spelled incorrectly and SEE that it is wrong and erase, she just isn't sure which is right, because there are so many words to remember, but she is definitely relying on some visual stuff to help. 

13 hours ago, Terabith said:

Yeah, my kid did through book 12 of Wilson, spells totally phonetically and follows the rules, but which phonogram or pattern she chooses is pretty much random.  She reads fine but her spelling, while MASSIVELY improved, just can't break past that 3rd grade level-ish.  It's good enough that spellcheck works, though, and at 14, I think we're done with serious remediation.  It's definitely a visual memory issue, but we were massively burned on VT and that ain't happening again, ever.  

Yes - that is sort of my goal - get her typing well enough to use spell check for most things as I think she's about there now where spell check will understand what she's trying to say. 

6 hours ago, ElizabethB said:

I have percentages.  Usually only older boys really bad at spelling and really good at math find them helpful, but you could use them and guide her through the most common sound for things that it really makes a difference for, with overwhelming percentages for one spelling, or for a spelling based on position.

You could also her them spell while looking at the chart for a while and see if that helps, guiding her through it at first.  The percentages are based on the most common 17,000 words in English.

http://www.thephonicspage.org/Phonics Lsns/phonogramsoundch.html

I already printed it for her! I do think it helps, but she's my perfectionist so hoping that she got the right one doesn't make her feel better. 

[ElizabethB]

4 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

I already printed it for her! I do think it helps, but she's my perfectionist so hoping that she got the right one doesn't make her feel better. 

That is a terrible combo: perfectionist, spelling, and dyslexia.  I'm sorry.

Spell check and typing as she gets older may help. I would also focus on the most common 1,000 words until she gets there. The lists in Spelling Plus are good, I'd use whatever techniques you are using that are working and either add in or transition to the most common 1,000 words, they account for 90% of any running text, Spelling Plus has them nicely arranged by rule and pattern.

https://www.amazon.com/Spelling-Plus-Words-toward-Success/dp/187947820X/ref=sr_1_2?crid=13JTDRU91TRL2&keywords=spelling+plus+1000+words+toward+spelling+success&qid=1576347360&sprefix=spelling+plus%2Caps%2C191&sr=8-2

 

[ktgrok]

2 hours ago, ElizabethB said:

That is a terrible combo: perfectionist, spelling, and dyslexia.  I'm sorry.

Spell check and typing as she gets older may help. I would also focus on the most common 1,000 words until she gets there. The lists in Spelling Plus are good, I'd use whatever techniques you are using that are working and either add in or transition to the most common 1,000 words, they account for 90% of any running text, Spelling Plus has them nicely arranged by rule and pattern.

https://www.amazon.com/Spelling-Plus-Words-toward-Success/dp/187947820X/ref=sr_1_2?crid=13JTDRU91TRL2&keywords=spelling+plus+1000+words+toward+spelling+success&qid=1576347360&sprefix=spelling+plus%2Caps%2C191&sr=8-2

 

Ooh - thank you! I do have the most common words list, but it isn't arranged by rule/pattern!!! That's hugely helpful!! I think we are going to drop Super Speller and just use the techniques from it, plus the general techniques from Equipped for Reading success and such and yes, stick to those. I have visual flash cards for some of them - I think the Dolch words , so not nouns - that are helpful so we started with those and then were goin to work our way through the list. But that seems much less intimidating with it arranged for us!!!  I just ordered it. 

And yes, terrible combination. It is why she has been SO reluctant to write ANYTHING..she knew she couldn't spell what she wanted to say and so wouldn't write at all. We have her doing a bit of dictation via her laptop, and she's learning to type, and with the extra work we are doing she's finally feeling confident enough to write some basic sentences with minimal spelling help. If she can get those most common words down she'll feel so much better and it will really be freeing for her. 

AAS is a great idea, but it just doesn't give her the words she actually needs fast enough. 

Edited December 14, 2019 by Ktgrok

[ElizabethB]

53 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Ooh - thank you! I do have the most common words list, but it isn't arranged by rule/pattern!!! That's hugely helpful!! I think we are going to drop Super Speller and just use the techniques from it, plus the general techniques from Equipped for Reading success and such and yes, stick to those. I have visual flash cards for some of them - I think the Dolch words , so not nouns - that are helpful so we started with those and then were goin to work our way through the list. But that seems much less intimidating with it arranged for us!!!  I just ordered it. 

And yes, terrible combination. It is why she has been SO reluctant to write ANYTHING..she knew she couldn't spell what she wanted to say and so wouldn't write at all. We have her doing a bit of dictation via her laptop, and she's learning to type, and with the extra work we are doing she's finally feeling confident enough to write some basic sentences with minimal spelling help. If she can get those most common words down she'll feel so much better and it will really be freeing for her. 

AAS is a great idea, but it just doesn't give her the words she actually needs fast enough. 

She has a lot of info on her website.

There are some things about how to use it, I think one of them has the lists, but the book is worth getting for rules and exceptions with each list.  She also has dictation sentences from literature and the Bible online, and you can buy the accompanying spelling dictation book.  The homophone book is also good.  I know all the rules and had other lists of the most common words, but bought her book for the ease of use having it ready to go and integrated, making it open and go.  I had to do daily spelling with it with my son.  My daughter just needed weekly spelling.

Here is the list http://www.susancanthony.com/ws/_pdf/splhnd.pdf and a video and explanation about it. 

http://www.susancanthony.com/ws/spel.html

Edited December 14, 2019 by ElizabethB

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, ElizabethB said:

She has a lot of info on her website.

There are some things about how to use it, I think one of them has the lists, but the book is worth getting for rules and exceptions with each list.  She also has dictation sentences from literature and the Bible online, and you can buy the accompanying spelling dictation book.  The homophone book is also good.  I know all the rules and had other lists of the most common words, but bought her book for the ease of use having it ready to go and integrated, making it open and go.  I had to do daily spelling with it with my son.  My daughter just needed weekly spelling.

Here is the list http://www.susancanthony.com/ws/_pdf/splhnd.pdf and a video and explanation about it. 

http://www.susancanthony.com/ws/spel.html

Thank you! I ordered the book but will go check out the website. I think this might be great for my son as well, who is more of a natural speller but this would help us make sure we don't miss anything. I'm holding off on spelling with him just so that DD can make some more progress first. I don't want the competition right now, you know? And he's in 1st grade - he can wait a year since he already spells fairly well from typing in Roblox, lol. The other day he spelled toilet correctly!

[ElizabethB]

1 hour ago, Ktgrok said:

Thank you! I ordered the book but will go check out the website. I think this might be great for my son as well, who is more of a natural speller but this would help us make sure we don't miss anything. I'm holding off on spelling with him just so that DD can make some more progress first. I don't want the competition right now, you know? And he's in 1st grade - he can wait a year since he already spells fairly well from typing in Roblox, lol. The other day he spelled toilet correctly!

With my daughter, who was a natural speller, I reviewed the rules and had her spell a few of the harder words from a Spelling Plus list or two weekly, moving any she missed (not many) to next week's work. I followed it with 6 - 8th grade level words from Natural Speller. During 1st grade, I just told her a few rules and had her spell a few of her phonics words, we started formal spelling later with her and it didn't take much. My son had to start formal spelling sooner and we tried weekly for a bit then had to up it to daily spelling for a few years.