s/o Gil's post -- I'd like to discuss the parent-child dynamic in homeschooling

[lewelma]

Gil said it was ok for me to re-post his post. 🙂 I don't actually want to discuss his take on math, but am much more interested in discussing the parent-child dynamic that we as homeschoolers cultivate in our homeschool. 

Gil's post was fascinating to me because he is much more Parent-In-Charge with all caps than I am, but yet his approach is different in a nuanced way from some parents here who have talked about obedience and a reward/punishment dynamic. I am a homeschooler who acts more as a peer, a knowledgeable peer who keeps track of the details, but still a peer who works *with* my ds to figure out content that neither of us know.  This has been a very effective approach for me to develop 1) love of learning, 2) personal relationships, and 3) willingness to struggle. But yet, there are times when my younger boy is just like 'no,' and I see that this could be an opportunity to implement Gil's approach.  

What I would like to discuss is how to be parent-directed and have strict requirements, while NOT getting into obedience and a reward/punishment dynamic.

Here is Gil's post on math that got me thinking about how he and I parent differently. Yes, it is about math, but it is also clearly about the parent-child dynamic in homeschooling.

 

Quote

Don't teach your kids from a place of fear and don't make yourself and your kids a slave to a tradition that isn't in-line with your reality.
Your gut is to reprioritize the school day for a (limited amount of ) time for this student, and I would explore options to follow your gut.

I would first speak with his other parent and make sure that WE, the parents, are okay with it. If both parents are in accord, then I would sit with him and work out a WRITTEN agreement, that he can have 30, 45, 60 up to 90 days off from math; that instead of doing math, he will redouble his efforts on the guitar and take full advantage of the opportunity he has for growth in this field while he has an excellent teacher. Make it clear that this respite is our gift to him, to enable him to progess on guitar and maybe even other 'worthy endeavors' as much as possible for a short period of time.

If he doesn't apply himself to guitar or other "worthy endeavours" sufficiently, then he is to resume a daily math lesson immediately. This is not a break from school lessons, this is a special session of school with different priorities.

When he returns to math, ditch Saxon. I don't think that using Saxon incorrectly, is worth the time and energy. (Note: We used Saxons upper grades books as a part of our program and I would do it again, but we used it as prescribed: every problem from every lesson, worked in order. I have "particular" math tastes. I think that Saxon is a great program, but it's a specific, and highly particular program. If you're not going to do "the program" then I'm not sure that it's worth doing.

Rather than continuing on misusing Saxon, get a copy of virtually any text titled Basic College Mathematics and when he's done, go straight into an algebra text. You can also get virtually any text titled Basic College Mathematics: Early Integers and it will give him more exposure to and practice with integers. Most BCM books that I've seen have 12 or fewer chapters. They cover all the essential topics from a 5th-8th scope and sequence with minimal fuss and tend to introduce integers in the last chapter. An Early Integers text will introduce Integers in the first 2 or 3 chapters, and keep using them throughout.

Pedagogically, you can take a break from math at this stage in the game and be no worse for the wear within 6 months of resuming math. My only hesitation in taking an extended break from math would be IF he is the sort who would not honor/cooperate with the return to math, or if he has some sort of severe math-disability or learning difference that would make an extended break from math cripple him.

In those cases, I might do different, but I have very strong feelings about math, math education, and children's ability to learn. I've tutored 100+ kids and I feel confident that if this is a NT kid, with average, or even slightly below average math-aptitude, that he'll be fine to pass up some months of math practice in exchange for some other worth-while endeavors.

Yes, he'll miss out on some of the repetitious, spread of practice, but it won't cripple him. Kids take summer break, get ill, miss chunks of school due to deaths in the family, etc and still manage to learn and understand enough math to do well in school.

He can still become an engineer, doctor, or lawyer if he decides that's what he wants to do, and if he doesn't become an engineer, doctor, lawyer or business whiz, it won't be because he didn't finish every lesson in his 7th grade math text, I assure you that much.

He is old enough that he may be able to be trusted to participate in such a conversation and understand the ramifications of his decision, but while he has access to an excellent teacher, I would want him practicing as much as possible, so that he can progress as much as possible while this teacher is available. Why not take advantage of one of the benefits of homeschooling to give your child a better education?

I will admit right now, that my kids are not naturally self-motivated. They do NOT come up with loads of educational, super beneficial learning projects on their own (at least not many that they're able to see through to the end independently). My youngests idea of a well rounded education includes copious amounts of Nintendo and drawing. They do best with externally provided structure and it's easier on everyone if I just take the reigns and be in charge. I'm very comfortable being The Adult in my relationship with my kids, though I've wavered in the past and I understand that the nagging uncertainty can be a real !@#$%.

I would work with my spouse and child to take better advantage of the special opportunity that having this excellent guitar teacher presented. I wouldn't go looking for a gimmicky "fun math", I wouldn't butcher Saxon, I would present him the opportunity to prioritize something special for a maximum of 3 months. It'll feel harder to take that time off when he's in highschool and you have to keep transcripts and whatnot. I think that for NT kids, the middle grades are ideal for "gap years" from disliked or uninspired subjects.

 

Edited December 12, 2019 by lewelma

[8filltheheart]

My kids all have very different personalities and what works for one may or may not be appropriate for another.  (If I had only had my #4 and #5 kids, I would have a very differernt perspective on parenting than what I experience with #2 (not past tense "experienced" bc even though he is 27, my Aspie still requires constant daily parenting.)  My #4 and #5 kiddos never experienced any type of real punishment bc they were easy going kids who you can just talk to and discuss things rationally and unemotionally with.  My Aspie functions on reactionary emotion with high doses of anxiety, ocd, adhd, and odd thrown in the mix.  Some of my kids automatically push themselves to their highest level of achievement.  Some of my kids would dwell in the absolute mediocre without being pushed from behind.  So it really takes trying to understand them individually and helping them use their will for their own success and sparking their internal motivation.

That said, doing what I request or expect is not optional. So the idea of cajoling or bargaining with my kids to do their school work is a non-issue b/c they know they have to do it.  Not doing what is expected is a non-starter. Setting boundaries, working with them in order for them to be successful, encouraging them to focus and complete an assignment......my different kids have needed different approaches.  Where some of my kids would just sit and do math when they were 6, my Aspie might have been jumping on numbers like hopscotch or  where the other kids might snuggle on the sofa listening to me read, he might have been hanging upside down off the sofa with his head on the floor or building Legos. (He has uncanny multitasking abilities and can appear to not be listening but can repeat word for word everything that has been said.)  

I don't think there is a simple answer to your question.  Some kids need encouragement and pushing from behind.  Some kids run along at the perfect pace.  Some kids need to have the reins pulled back bc they don't know how to create appropriate boundaries for themselves.  What works when they are 5 or 6 may be completely unrelated to what needs to occur when they are 11 and then again at 14 and 16 and 18.  There is no single approach that works for all of them.  

If I had attempted to parent my easy-going kids with the "wall" approach I had to take with my Aspie, it would have crushed their spirits.  But, if I had been the easy-going parent with my Aspie, I would have been trampled to death.  Those aspects of parenting have to flow into how we teach them b/c some kids need to be under their own version of self-control first before anything academic can be accomplished.  

[Andromeda]

This is a great topic, Ruth! Thank you for starting it!

My perspective on being the Homeschool Parent In Charge has evolved over the years of homeschooling my kids, and will likely continue to do so as I graduate my oldest and continue working with my youngest. When my kids were little - preschoolers and early elementary age, I tried to be the fun teacher and searched high and wide for fun activities. I own tubs of various manipulatives, activities, games, kits, etc. This did not work at all. My kids are not interested in school as fun or experience. They see it as a means to an end, and now I do, too. I realized that the beautiful lapbooks, models of Pyramids, and Cuisinnaire rods were really just for me, made by me, and my kids were just grudgingly following along. It's actually quite freeing not to be doing those anymore. They simply don't need manipulatives or visuals; they see them as time wasters - the work takes longer

If left to their own devices, my kids would spend their time gaming and possibly doing a bit of crafts. Interest-led is not a good fit here. I make my expectations clear and my kids know that they have to finish the assigned work, with excellence. One of the things I find myself saying the most is "if the the publisher didn't want you to do this math problem (paper, reading, etc.), it would not be in the book." We do lessons the way the curriculum provider designed them with very little (and usually no) change. 

Like 8FillTheHeart wrote, I think that there is no clear method that would work for either of my kids at any age. It even varies day to day. Some days my oldest needs to be prodded every 15 minutes to accomplish anything and others she gets all her school done before I even remember to ask. Overall, my parenting-teaching style is firm and academic. Neither of my kids is easy going. They require a firm hand or nothing will get done, but as they get older I see some glimmers of initiative and self-regulation. I try to cultivate those and step back a little until/unless they don't accomplish their goals.I need to provide firm structure for both. They need to know what is on the list for school each day so that they know when it is done.

[Critterfixer]

Well, I don't have a whole lot of experience (only two same age boys with very different personalities) but I'd say the parent-directed part is looking at the child and deciding if one approach vs another is needed. I'm not a big rewards/punishment person myself other than the natural reward of just getting a day's work done, calling it good, and being able to enjoy our leisure time in ways we choose for ourselves. 

I've only had one instance in which one of my sons stated up-front he wouldn't do x subject. We talked about it, I told him that while that subject wasn't negotiable for me, the program used and work required was. I showed him several options, he chose one, and it worked well for all three of us. But my boys are in general self-motivated (not always in schoolwork) and pretty reasonable. I might be a completely different person with different students.

[lewelma]

Thanks so much to each of you for writing all that out! I'm not quite sure what I am looking for, perhaps just to explore how each of us does things differently so that I can increase the tools in my toolbox.

I am NOT Parent-In-Charge. Nope, can't do it and don't believe in it. However, I am in charge, with small caps.  I work through subtle influence to create internal desire and motivation to do what needs to be done. I don't think that my younger boy would have ever slogged through hours upon hours upon hours to remediate his dysgraphia effectively if had not *wanted* to do it, and he wanted to do it because over the years I have planted ideas in his mind that have grown.  I do NOT convince or argue or cajole . I do not lead from top down. I lead through influence as Lao Tsu described :

"A leader is best when people barely know he exists. When his work is done, his aim fulfilled, they will say: we did it ourselves."  

So what I find so interesting about Gil's approach and each of yours is the dynamic that your kids are *expected* to do what they are asked, but that you don't implement the 'obedience' or reward/punishment cycle. Or at least you don't appear to. My kids do NOT respond to reward/punishment, like they don't respond to it AT ALL. It builds resistance and resentment, and even at times retaliation. My older was an explosive child when he was young, and I was lucky to have found and read the best parenting book I have ever seen: "The Explosive Child" by Greene. His approach gave me insight, and I ran with it and changed it to make it my own.  He works *with* kids to solve problems-- to come up with solutions that are acceptable to BOTH the parent and the child. This book started me down the path of working *with* my kids, rather than directing from on high.  And as I described above, I have changed his approach to create internal drive and motivation in both my boys to do even what they don't like doing. 

So when my younger boy says 'no,' I don't convince, but I do remind him of his goals and ask him what his plan is. I'm not manipulative; I am honestly asking how he plans to deal with what I perceive as a problem. But if he doesn't perceive of it as a problem, I work over many months to plant little seeds of ideas. This is how I changed my younger son from eating too many sweets, to having an internal desire to eat more healthily. I believe these month-long efforts of mine create long-term solutions because he owns them. 

So I guess I'm wondering about how you guys create internal motivation with top down parenting. And I'm curious when you use different approaches with the same kid.  I have run into a couple of situations with my younger (one in particular) that have been much harder to manage with my approach.  So I'm kicking around a more top down approach, but I am hesitant to implement it because it goes against our long-standing and very-effective peer dynamic. 

Ruth in NZ

 

Edited December 12, 2019 by lewelma

[maize]

I am not generally a top-down person. I do not like to be in charge. As a child, I was very resistant to external control, and rewards and punishment were both ineffective. 

What did work was for me to understand and agree with the reasons for something. If I embraced a rule as tight then I would generally follow it.

With my kids I do a lot of adjusting things to their needs. I see and generally presume good will on their parts, so if something isn't happening that needs to happen I work from the assumption that they either are not understanding why it needs to happen or, more often, that they are struggling to make it happen for reasons often significantly outside their direct control.  Then we work on ways around or through those barriers, or we change our expectations.

My mom was a very directive, in charge sort of parent, but the parent being in charge doesn't make a kid able to do what the kid can't do. Which in my case was pretty much anything that required consistent executive function. There really isn't much we can take charge of directly where another human's actions are concerned. If kids are able and willing to comply and conform, it can seem like the parent is in control--but that is so very dependant on the child.

With things like screens, I exert some control directly--specifically, I'm the one who manages the household wifi so I can turn it on our off for any given device. I see this as more environmental control; I don't want my kids staying up late with screens so wifi gets turned off to all screen devices before bedtime. 

[8filltheheart]

I have never parented my children, nor attempted to parent my children, in some semblence of a "peer relationship."  I don't see them as my peers and I don't want them to see me as their peer.  I am their parent.  Parenting as "parent" does not equal forceful control. Parenting means communicating with respect, guiding, but it also means instilling virtues, enforcing boundaries, etc.  There is a difference between authoritarian and authoratitive.  I honestly don't get the distinction "top-down parenting."  To me parenting is naturally top down. It is not a relationship that naturally exists on a equal level.  But, equally, I don't agree with the idea that parents "parenting as parents" are unable to nurture children toward intrinsic motivation.  Again, I think it is bc parenting is not defined as "controlling." 

[Little Green Leaves]

My kids are small and not super conscientious, so if I wasn't top-down they wouldn't brush their teeth, make their beds, or practice their handwriting. Sometimes I get tired of being in charge and I look for a way to get them on board with being more self-led. Honestly, this generally backfires. I end up feeling like it's actually less intrusive to just be the Parent In Charge. I am really jealous of people who can create this more child-led approach though.

Those of you who talk about being more peer-to-peer with your kids, what do you do when, say, they don't want to go to bed, or do their chores? or when they get older and they break curfew / don't do their work / etc? I think I grew up with a pretty top-down model so I'm curious about the nitty gritty of how this works. I know a few people have said you just explain to your kids why something is important, but what if they fundamentally disagree?

Edited December 12, 2019 by Little Green Leaves

[lewelma]

8 minutes ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

I have never parented my children, nor attempted to parent my children, in some semblence of a "peer relationship."  I don't see them as my peers and I don't want them to see me as their peer.  I am their parent.  Parenting as "parent" does not equal forceful control. Parenting means communicating with respect, guiding, but it also means instilling virtues, enforcing boundaries, etc.  There is a difference between authoritarian and authoratitive.  I honestly don't get the distinction "top-down parenting."  To me parenting is naturally top down. It is not a relationship that naturally exists on a equal level.  But, equally, I don't agree with the idea that parents "parenting as parents" are unable to nurture children toward intrinsic motivation.  Again, I think it is bc parenting is not defined as "controlling." 

I have known for many years that you and I definitely parent differently, and I respect your approach although I cannot implement it with my own kids. Clearly, I am not a peer, clearly I am a parent, but also clearly we do thing differently. I don't think that English has official names for the nuanced approaches either of us use. So I am sorry if I have muddied the waters with trying to put names on parenting styles.  The Lao Tsu quote is my best description of what I do.  "A leader is best when people barely know he exists. When his work is done, his aim fulfilled, they will say: we did it ourselves." I don't subscribe to the 'best' part as I think there are many effective approaches, but that summarizes how I parent - call it whatever you want.

So how do you develop internal motivation in a child who has none?  Or internal motivation for a task that they don't want to do but that you want them to do? I would like to have more tools in my tool box. 🙂 

[lewelma]

16 minutes ago, Little Green Leaves said:

My kids are small and not super conscientious, so if I wasn't top-down they wouldn't brush their teeth, make their beds, or practice their handwriting. Sometimes I get tired of being in charge and I look for a way to get them on board with being more self-led. Honestly, this generally backfires. I end up feeling like it's actually less intrusive to just be the Parent In Charge. I am really jealous of people who can create this more child-led approach though.

Those of you who talk about being more peer-to-peer with your kids, what do you do when, say, they don't want to go to bed, or do their chores? or when they get older and they break curfew / don't do their work / etc? I think I grew up with a pretty top-down model so I'm curious about the nitty gritty of how this works. I know a few people have said you just explain to your kids why something is important, but what if they fundamentally disagree?

I was much more Parent in Charge when my kids were little, but I also implemented Greene's approach for explosive children starting when they were about 6 years old. This book definitely discouraged top-down decision making by the parent (Greene is a psychologist who works with explosive kids no matter the reason --  odd, add, ocd, etc). So with my older boy when he was younger, we worked *with* him to come up with solutions that would avoid explosions.  Once my younger came along, I just continued the same approach even though he was not explosive, because he was very stubborn and if I was dictatorial we would just get into a power struggle that never ended well. 

I have to run out the door, but I'm happy to try to explain the nitty gritty of how I do it when I get back. Better, however, if you just flew to NZ and we had a chat over a cuppa. 🙂 

[Little Green Leaves]

31 minutes ago, lewelma said:

I was much more Parent in Charge when my kids were little, but I also implemented Greene's approach for explosive children starting when they were about 6 years old. This book definitely discouraged top-down decision making by the parent (Greene is a psychologist who works with explosive kids no matter the reason --  odd, add, ocd, etc). So with my older boy when he was younger, we worked *with* him to come up with solutions that would avoid explosions.  Once my younger came along, I just continued the same approach even though he was not explosive, because he was very stubborn and if I was dictatorial we would just get into a power struggle that never ended well. 

I have to run out the door, but I'm happy to try to explain the nitty gritty of how I do it when I get back. Better, however, if you just flew to NZ and we had a chat over a cuppa. 🙂 

 

Haha I'm on my way, have always dreamed of visiting New Zealand! 

[maize]

46 minutes ago, Little Green Leaves said:

My kids are small and not super conscientious, so if I wasn't top-down they wouldn't brush their teeth, make their beds, or practice their handwriting. Sometimes I get tired of being in charge and I look for a way to get them on board with being more self-led. Honestly, this generally backfires. I end up feeling like it's actually less intrusive to just be the Parent In Charge. I am really jealous of people who can create this more child-led approach though.

Those of you who talk about being more peer-to-peer with your kids, what do you do when, say, they don't want to go to bed, or do their chores? or when they get older and they break curfew / don't do their work / etc? I think I grew up with a pretty top-down model so I'm curious about the nitty gritty of how this works. I know a few people have said you just explain to your kids why something is important, but what if they fundamentally disagree?

Re: the bolded

I tend to offer incentives for chores or bedtime kinds of things--if they are in bed by a set time they can listen to an audiobook, if they do their assigned chores they can earn points that are turned in for money or privileges. I figure this is not much different from an adult who goes to work to earn a salary. 

When it comes down to it, I can't make a child--especially an older child--come home at a certain hour, or do their math, or brush their teeth, or, really anything. I don't control another person. If the child is inclined to be a people pleaser or simply tends to be compliant that may be incentive for them to do what I want, but ultimately they must have motivation for whatever they do. Their motivation might be a desire to have a good relationship with a parent, it might be understanding and agreeing with the reasons for doing something, it might be wanting to qualify for an external incentive or avoid a negative consequence, but it is always the child who does or does not do the thing. I don't have control. I can't.

Most children will naturally perceive their parents as authorities when they are young. And frankly with young children parents do have to be an authority in many things; and sometimes we have to control through physical force (i.e. buckle the resisting child into a carseat, hold down the squirming toddler to get the diaper on, pick up the scratching, biting three year old and carry them away from their sibling) but as children grow our ability to exert direct physical control diminishes (and such control becomes less appropriate)--but we have no other direct control over their person.

What does being In Charge mean when we are not actually in control?

[Quercus]

1 hour ago, lewelma said:

 I work through subtle influence to create internal desire and motivation to do what needs to be done. I don't think that my younger boy would have ever slogged through hours upon hours upon hours to remediate his dysgraphia effectively if had not *wanted* to do it, and he wanted to do it because over the years I have planted ideas in his mind that have grown.  I do NOT convince or argue or cajole . I do not lead from top down. I lead through influence

 

I am not the posters you are asking, clearly, but I wanted to spit this out before I lost the thought.

Working through subtle influence sounds exhausting to me but I don't think it's inherently all that different than what we do here in practice. Probably? DH and I are top-down leaders for our kids, but the mechanism isn't convincing, arguing, or cajoling. It's trust. 

As for homeschool, I make all the decisions and my kids trust me that they are the right ones. When I make a mistake, I tell them I did and I decide to do something else. As they have grown older, they start taking things over very slowly (but oh so very quickly too!) bit by bit but I have retained the ultimate decision making authority. If something isn't good enough, it's me telling them it isn't good enough until they develop their own scales.

I have friends who would say that they'll never develop their own internal sense of right and wrong (or good and bad) if they don't practice, but that has not been my experience with my kids at all. They simply grow into each set of expectations, and I keep expanding those expectations to include more. They trust that they are appropriate expectations, work to meet them (with my help of course), and take ownership of things as they are able. 

I do verbalize things with my kids once they are in a certain stage, so that they see and can hopefully model an adult's line of reasoning. I do not make decisions on a whim and my kids know that. I think it's probably very comforting to know that both your parents always have your best interests in heart and mind, and can be trusted to lead you to where you need to be at any given time. Plenty of chaos pops up in life, that we all get plenty of "thrown in the deep end" practice. 

It's like cooking dinner. My two year old doesn't get to decide, because he doesn't know the first thing about dinner. My eight year old doesn't decide what we have for dinner, but he does peel potatoes. My eleven year old can occasionally cook everything for a meal, but doesn't have to plan it or decide what it is or buy it or clean it up alone or do it every night. That's what I mean by what you are saying and what we are doing probably isn't very different in practice, because I am sure you don't throw your kids in the deep end either. Maybe just the feel and the language is different. Significantly different, probably, in acute instances, but not in overall outcome.

[Quercus]

2 hours ago, lewelma said:

I'm wondering about how you guys create internal motivation with top down parenting

 

One thing I've told my kids for a very long time, when they have a "no" is that we will do it my way now, and they can talk about their ideas/concerns/complaints (keepin' it real) afterward. 

In other words, a "no" on the spot, trying to get out of something, or before they've even tried my way is not acceptable, but I will listen to them say anything about anything. I have to live by that, and hear things I don't want to hear sometimes, but it is worth it.

I always retain the ultimate yes or no, though, and they know that going into everything. But here again, that sounds very harsh to some of my friends (which if I am being honest, is maddening to me. It's just regular parenting, but okay we're all different!) but they can see in practice that my kids do end up making decisions for themselves. And usually, pretty mature ones. They just don't get to decide until they are ready to decide.

In homeschool that might look like a progression over years of assigned reading -> choose from this list -> choose from this very big list -> choose any book about this subject (I have veto power) -> choose the subject and I'll choose the book -> choose the book. 

That's just an example, not how we actually handle books haha, but just to give the idea. 

[maize]

I wouldn't say I am my children's peer, but I am also not their boss/manager. I think the leadership paradigm lewelma mentioned is closer to what I am striving for. I am trying to be a leader, a servant-leader of the type who sees their role as facilitating the success of those they lead. I have both more responsibility and more experience than my children, this makes me not their peer. I also hopefully have acquired a bit more wisdom, qualifying me to lead.

I am not directive in my leadership, I certainly prefer a more collaborative style. That doesn't make me not the leader, nor does or exempt me from holding a few strict lines. Those lines are few though in my household, I'd rather put most of my effort into trying to support my kids in what they want to do than into trying to contain them within a box. 

Edited December 12, 2019 by maize

[Quercus]

1 hour ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

I have never parented my children, nor attempted to parent my children, in some semblence of a "peer relationship."  I don't see them as my peers and I don't want them to see me as their peer.  I am their parent.  Parenting as "parent" does not equal forceful control. Parenting means communicating with respect, guiding, but it also means instilling virtues, enforcing boundaries, etc.  There is a difference between authoritarian and authoratitive.  I honestly don't get the distinction "top-down parenting."  To me parenting is naturally top down. It is not a relationship that naturally exists on a equal level.  But, equally, I don't agree with the idea that parents "parenting as parents" are unable to nurture children toward intrinsic motivation.  Again, I think it is bc parenting is not defined as "controlling." 

 

I agree

[maize]

16 minutes ago, Quercus said:

 

It's like cooking dinner. My two year old doesn't get to decide, because he doesn't know the first thing about dinner. My eight year old doesn't decide what we have for dinner, but he does peel potatoes. My eleven year old can occasionally cook everything for a meal, but doesn't have to plan it or decide what it is or buy it or clean it up alone or do it every night. 

 

Just wait until you have a sixteen year old who makes the meal plan and gives you the shopping list, then cooks the dinner!

Older kids can be great 🙂

[Quercus]

8 minutes ago, maize said:

 

Just wait until you have a sixteen year old who makes the meal plan and gives you the shopping list, then cooks the dinner!

Older kids can be great 🙂

 

Lol my kids do do that! They really like to cook. I was just making the point about how they figure it out by doing what I tell them through the years, not by us collaborating through the years. Collaboration is involved, once they begin helping out in the kitchen, but at my direction. Schoolwork can be like that. 

Edited December 12, 2019 by Quercus

[Ausmumof3]

I’m a bit inconsistent with this unfortunately.  I’m not a strong leader type personality so I do tend toward the peer model.  However I definitely don’t go the hints and tips route because for one thing it sounds exhausting and for me personally I find it irritating when it’s been done to me.  I always feel like “person, just come out and say what you think!”

I guess for some practical examples on the dinner thing.  All of my kids do occasionally “decide” dinner.  For a long time when we were sitting around writing a shopping list I’d ask each kid for a meal suggestion.  Even the six year old.  But within parameters.  If they said cocoa pops or ice cream that wasn’t happening. It had to be real food.  Did we eat tacos a bit more?  Yeah probably.

for school I’m happy to delegate to the state.  They do require us to learn in eight key areas so my kids either do that for me or go to school.  However within that I try to be somewhat flexible as to which program etc.  Again with parameters.  If I spent $100 on math and you don’t like it your alternative will only be whatever is free on my shelf or cheap at the time.  I’m not buying something else.  And it will be as close to grade level as you can manage.

i think some of it can be driven by the kids too.  My kids also react badly to a strong “you will do as I say” approach so reasoning etc works better.  

[LMD]

Well, I thought I was a semi decent parent but now my teen is in a strop again... but my 12 year old did his morning job and maths before 9.30 this morning without even seeing a parent yet. So, I don't know what I'm doing, surviving? 😄

Interesting topic though, I'm enjoying reading the responses. 

[maize]

I think parenting roles naturally change over the years. During infant and toddler years, my primary job is too take care of the child--feed them, clothe them, keep them safe. I do things for them. As they grow my role becomes more one of teaching--I teach them to take care of their body, teach them to tie their shoes, teach them about normal social expectations, teach them to read and do arithmetic. Through the adolescent years I am becoming more of a mentor, a counselor, and yes, as they approach adulthood, a friend. The relationship is gradually becoming not that of a caretaker or teacher but of a supportive base from which they can launch into the world as adults in their own right. And hopefully eventually a relationship that will be reciprocally supportive through many decades ahead. 

I don't feel much more of a hierarchy in my current relationship with my eldest than I feel in my relationship with my spouse. I'm still mom, but my ability to guide or mentor is mostly just a matter of having more life experience, not so much one of being on a different plane of authority.

Edited December 13, 2019 by maize

[Ausmumof3]

I also think my hatred of making decisions plays in!  I like other people’s input because I find decision making exhausting.  

[lewelma]

I appreciate the responses! Thanks guys for taking the time to write out what is pretty difficult to explain. 

So in my standard approach to parenting, I asked my ds what he thought about how our relationship works. 🙂  He said the number one thing that I do differently than every other parent he knows is that I value his point of view. Actually value it and won't put my point of view above his.  I found this interesting because I have never really realized that was a hallmark of how I parent. But he is right.

He also said that 'peer-relationship' has a certain connotation, like we hang out together or do stuff that he does with his same-age peers. We don't. He said that a better description would be "intellectual partner." That we work together to solve problems, that we are not intellectual equals because clearly I have more knowledge and experience, but that not all decisions should be based only on those things.  Which is why valuing his point of view is critical for this partnership.  Once again, this is interesting to me to see it from his point of view, because he is right.

And this conversation actually showed me how I parent - it was like I was watching with new eyes. By involving him in *evaluating* our relationship and interactions, I also influenced him to continue to work with me as a partner with give and take on both sides. I led from behind. 

More in a sec...

[...................]

So far this thread seems to be missing an age component. When children are little they need more Parent in Charge. Not completely. They still need coaching on thinking through their options and also they need Someone in Charge who just isn’t a pushover. Ideally every young mom would have the personality of a loving and gentle mother who had such a strong side that the kids learn she’s In Charge. they need rules, boundaries and limitations within a healthy loving framework. 
 

I think the older they get the more it resembles a peer relationship. But if you did your job well when the kid was little he would always have a special understanding in the back of his mind that the parents word is final and that mom and dad don’t take shit. (Sorry best way to say that.) 

When the kids become teens hopefully around that time you’ve gotten to the point Where most of what they do is independent. They ask advice, they check in with you on new ideas and you plan each semester together, mostly them planning and mostly you making a few suggestions. By age 16 hopefully you’ll have a hormonal young person who has moods but by then they’re working on their own so if something fails they take personal responsibility and you can ask if they want advice. Some kids will be harder than others and you may have do do a few hard things like grounding but generally not for schoolwork. 
 

in our house outsourcing was 100% necessary for my older because he was leaps and bounds ahead of me, by about 7th grade. For my younger by about 7th grade although I could have kept up for another year or two academically, she was emotionally ready to separate and outsourcing is 100% the answer. If this was 1989 and  no co ops existed She would be using ACE Paces because there is no way I could have the emotional strength to stand up against not only her hormones but her personality. She is very assertive and an FP and I am an ESTJ and it is very easy to manipulate me or emotionally exhaust me.  I am a planner, worker and doer through and through dependable but hand me a person who wants to disagree  with, discuss, change assignments and I unravel or give in very quickly. She is an A student in every class almost across the board and works very hard. She needs external validation and motivation for school. 
 

that’s not to say she needs external validation for *learning** like most homeschooled kids she loves to learn and teaches herself stuff outside of her School hours constantly. 
 

So in my point of view if parents establish authority in a loving healthy consistent manner when kids are little, it reaps positive rewards when it’s time for that relationship to move towards an independent person who is under authority but not having authority affect their daily life. In this time it can feel a lot like a peer relationship but it’s not and IMO never should be. My mom is still my mom and so is my stepdad and they earned the right for a special position . They are no longer my authority in any way but I treat them with more respect and deference than any average Joe and I value their advice even when I do not ask for it. 
 

 

[lewelma]

3 hours ago, Little Green Leaves said:

what do you do when, say, they don't want to go to bed, or do their chores? or when they get older and they break curfew / don't do their work / etc?

So when my boys were younger they had to be in bed by 8pm, but they could stay up as long as they wanted as long as 1) were laying down in their bed, 2) were reading a classic, and 3) had a head-lamp on red with no-overhead light.  Under these conditions, kids typically don't last long! 🙂  But the environment empowered them to make their own choices that were not dictated to by me. 

As for teens, I asked my boy why he goes to bed at a reasonable hour when he has no bedtime. He said that to work effectively he needs to be well rested, and that he knows that if he wants to work with me he needs to start at 8:30 because I tutor in the afternoon. So that if he goes to bed late and sleeps in, he will have to work independently in the afternoon or at night. So to me that sounds like the standard parenting tool of natural consequences.  But then I asked him, 'so why do you actually want to get work done if I don't require it?' And together we kicked it around, and decided that I have taught him to value his education and that he doesn't want to short change himself.  So because he internally owns the value, I can trust him to make his own choices to implement it without reward, punishment, nagging, or cajoling.

So by putting most of my effort into instilling this value over the years, I do not need to have a top-down parent-directed homeschool.  And the more I think about it, the more I think this is true for most of my parenting relationship with my kids. He shares my values, but may not share my implementation method. But I respect his point of view, so work with him in 'intellectual partnership' to accomplish his and my goals. 

And this whole conversation has helped me to realize that he does not share my values in the issue that I'm struggling with. So that is something for me to think about.

 

[lewelma]

Calming tea, I would quote you, but it is all so good. I completely agree that parental relationship changes over time. Perhaps I just give the reigns to my kids earlier than other parents. And the other thing I don't do and never have is any sort of incentives, rewards, removal of privileges, punishment, etc.  Never.  I also don't give tests or grades, so no incentives there either.

So when I started this thread I was thinking that maybe I needed to do incentives or removal of privileges for this one issue. Or even saying 'I'm the parent, and what I say goes.' But now I'm thinking that I have not talked to him enough for me to understand his point of view and for him to understand mine, and then to come to an agreement that we are both happy with.

Edited December 13, 2019 by lewelma

[8filltheheart]

44 minutes ago, lewelma said:

So when my boys were younger they had to be in bed by 8pm, but they could stay up as long as they wanted as long as 1) were laying down in their bed, 2) were reading a classic, and 3) had a head-lamp on red with no-overhead light.  Under these conditions, kids typically don't last long! 🙂  But the environment empowered them to make their own choices that were not dictated to by me. 

As for teens, I asked my boy why he goes to bed at a reasonable hour when he has no bedtime. He said that to work effectively he needs to be well rested, and that he knows that if he wants to work with me he needs to start at 8:30 because I tutor in the afternoon. So that if he goes to bed late and sleeps in, he will have to work independently in the afternoon or at night. So to me that sounds like the standard parenting tool of natural consequences.  But then I asked him, 'so why do you actually want to get work done if I don't require it?' And together we kicked it around, and decided that I have taught him to value his education and that he doesn't want to short change himself.  So because he internally owns the value, I can trust him to make his own choices to implement it without reward, punishment, nagging, or cajoling.

So by putting most of my effort into instilling this value over the years, I do not need to have a top-down parent-directed homeschool.  And the more I think about it, the more I think this is true for most of my parenting relationship with my kids. He shares my values, but may not share my implementation method. But I respect his point of view, so work with him in 'intellectual partnership' to accomplish his and my goals. 

And this whole conversation has helped me to realize that he does not share my values in the issue that I'm struggling with. So that is something for me to think about.

 

It sounds like your experience and perspective fits your children, as it should.  But, it is certainly not a model that would work for lots of children, especially those who lack the ability to self-regulate.  For example, when our Aspie was 14 he was crippled by his obsessive/compulsive behaviors.  He was obsessed with manga and drawing the images.  He would draw the same picture over and over and over, crumpling up picture after picture b/c it was almost perfect but not quite.  (When we looked at the pictures it was next to impossible to see any difference at all.)  Left alone, he would have drawn the same picture over and over for over 20 hrs straight.  He wouldn't stop to eat, go the bathroom, sleep, anything without being forced to stop.  When we would "interfere" with his drawing, his reaction would be uncontrollable agitation.  He would stab his pencil into the wall in pure frustration.

Pt being, we have to parent the child.  Sometimes what it takes is not the type of parenting we would prefer but what it takes to help them be able to function in a healthy way.

 

Edited December 13, 2019 by 8FillTheHeart

[maize]

21 minutes ago, lewelma said:

Calming tea, I would quote you, but it is all so good. I completely agree that parental relationship changes over time. Perhaps I just give the reigns to my kids earlier than other parents. And the other thing I don't do and never have is any sort of incentives, rewards, removal of privileges, punishment, etc.  Never.  I also don't give tests or grades, so no incentives there either.

So when I started this thread I was thinking that maybe I needed to do incentives or removal of privileges for this one issue. Or even saying 'I'm the parent, and what I say goes.' But now I'm thinking that I have not talked to him enough for me to understand his point of view and for him to understand mine, and then to come to an agreement that we are both happy with.

So, if you never used incentives or consequences, did your children when they were young challenge you on things like bedtime? You said they had to be in bed by a certain time, they could read but only certain books and only with a red light. Your boys never did things like jump on the beds past bed time? Turn on the light when it was supposed to be off? You did have rules, did you have methods of enforcing those rules or were your children mostly compliant so no enforcement was necessary? What would you have done if every evening instead of reading in bed they were having pillow fights?

[lewelma]

3 minutes ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

Pt being, we have to parent the child.  Sometimes what it takes is not the type of parenting we would prefer, but what it takes to help them be able to function in a healthy way.

I completely agree with this.  I very much appreciate people helping me sort through my thoughts on this as I have never tried to pinpoint what my parenting style is or the elements it contains. I think I've convinced myself to stay the course and try to fix the issue that is bothering me with the tools I already use with which am both familiar and effective. 

What made me start this thread was the surety with which Gil spoke. He parenting style came through loud and clear, and he is clearly using it effectively with his boys.  I think he parents the children he has, and I think that his techniques, although they sound amazing to me, will not work with my younger boy.  

[Ausmumof3]

45 minutes ago, lewelma said:

So when my boys were younger they had to be in bed by 8pm, but they could stay up as long as they wanted as long as 1) were laying down in their bed, 2) were reading a classic, and 3) had a head-lamp on red with no-overhead light.  Under these conditions, kids typically don't last long! 🙂  But the environment empowered them to make their own choices that were not dictated to by me. 

As for teens, I asked my boy why he goes to bed at a reasonable hour when he has no bedtime. He said that to work effectively he needs to be well rested, and that he knows that if he wants to work with me he needs to start at 8:30 because I tutor in the afternoon. So that if he goes to bed late and sleeps in, he will have to work independently in the afternoon or at night. So to me that sounds like the standard parenting tool of natural consequences.  But then I asked him, 'so why do you actually want to get work done if I don't require it?' And together we kicked it around, and decided that I have taught him to value his education and that he doesn't want to short change himself.  So because he internally owns the value, I can trust him to make his own choices to implement it without reward, punishment, nagging, or cajoling.

So by putting most of my effort into instilling this value over the years, I do not need to have a top-down parent-directed homeschool.  And the more I think about it, the more I think this is true for most of my parenting relationship with my kids. He shares my values, but may not share my implementation method. But I respect his point of view, so work with him in 'intellectual partnership' to accomplish his and my goals. 

And this whole conversation has helped me to realize that he does not share my values in the issue that I'm struggling with. So that is something for me to think about.

 

I think that’s similar to my thing of choice within parameters.  However it was still top down.  Your kids weren’t free to watch tv till 2am which is what a truly peer relationship would look like.  

[Ausmumof3]

9 minutes ago, maize said:

So, if you never used incentives or consequences, did your children when they were young challenge you on things like bedtime? You said they had to be in bed by a certain time, they could read but only certain books and only with a red light. Your boys never did things like jump on the beds past bed time? Turn on the light when it was supposed to be off? You did have rules, did you have methods of enforcing those rules or were your children mostly compliant so no enforcement was necessary? What would you have done if every evening instead of reading in bed they were having pillow fights?

And yes this.

so this worked for you but what happened if your boys didn’t want to lay in bed reading classic books?  Did that ever happen?  

[lewelma]

2 minutes ago, maize said:

So, if you never used incentives or consequences, did your children when they were young challenge you on things like bedtime? You said they had to be in bed by a certain time, they could read but only certain books and only with a red light. Your boys never did things like jump on the beds past bed time? Turn on the light when it was supposed to be off? You did have rules, did you have methods of enforcing those rules or were your children mostly compliant so no enforcement was necessary? What would you have done if every evening instead of reading in bed they were having pillow fights?

Haha. Beats me. My memory is so shaky,  I don't remember what they did when they had pillow fights as I am sure they did!  I know they didn't jump on the beds because they have been in bunk beds their entire life in a room that was 9 by 6! I'm sure I had rules and enforced them, so clearly my parenting has changed. 🙂 

As for compliant, it was my younger's complete non-compliance and obstinacy that drove me to give up trying to externally regulate his actions and work long and hard to develop internal regulation and motivation.  This has not been a small task.  And it was my older's explosions and OCD that first led me to a new parenting approach.  So Nope. I definitely did NOT have compliant children. 

[lewelma]

4 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I think that’s similar to my thing of choice within parameters.  However it was still top down.  Your kids weren’t free to watch tv till 2am which is what a truly peer relationship would look like.  

Yep, my ds said in the car today that we don't have a peer relationship, we have what he calls an "intellectual partnership."

[8filltheheart]

4 hours ago, lewelma said:

I have known for many years that you and I definitely parent differently, and I respect your approach although I cannot implement it with my own kids. Clearly, I am not a peer, clearly I am a parent, but also clearly we do thing differently. I don't think that English has official names for the nuanced approaches either of us use. So I am sorry if I have muddied the waters with trying to put names on parenting styles.  The Lao Tsu quote is my best description of what I do.  "A leader is best when people barely know he exists. When his work is done, his aim fulfilled, they will say: we did it ourselves." I don't subscribe to the 'best' part as I think there are many effective approaches, but that summarizes how I parent - call it whatever you want.

So how do you develop internal motivation in a child who has none?  Or internal motivation for a task that they don't want to do but that you want them to do? I would like to have more tools in my tool box. 🙂 

My parenting methods are hugely influenced by Catholic theology.  Life is a gift from God.  We are His children and every day is a blessing He has given us.  We are called to glorify Him by living to the best of our ability.  Our role at each stage of our life is our way of serving Him.  So, if you are a parent, you parent to the best of your ability.  If you are an employee, you do your job to the best of your ability.  If you are a student, you do your work and learn to the best of your ability.

You examine your conscience and ask yourself if you lived according the gifts and fruits of the Holy Spirit.  Have you done the your best to glorify God in your daily work?  

As a parent, we raise our children with those values.  When they do their daily school work, they write AMDG (Ad majórem Dei glóriam, For the greater glory of God) on the top of their paper before they begin. And JMJ, for Jesus, Mary, and Joseph......the Holy Family.   And we discuss the purpose of education, the interior mental freedom for which they were created.  Education allows them to think for themselves and not be influenced by those who attempt to control them by their lack of knowledge.

[lewelma]

.

Edited December 13, 2019 by lewelma

[lewelma]

1 minute ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

My parenting methods are hugely influenced by Catholic theology.  Life is a gift from God.  We are His children and every day is a blessing He has given us.  We are called to glorify Him by living to the best of our ability.  Our role at each stage of our life is our way of serving Him.  So, if you are a parent, you parent to the best of your ability.  If you are an employee, you do your job to the best of your ability.  If you are a student, you do your work and learn to the best of your ability.

You examine your conscience and ask yourself if you lived according the gifts and fruits of the Holy Spirit.  Have you done the your best to glorify God in your daily work?  

As a parent, we raise our children with those values.  When they do their daily school work, they write AMDG (Ad majórem Dei glóriam, For the greater glory of God) on the top of their paper before they begin. And JMJ, for Jesus, Mary, and Joseph......the Holy Family.   And we discuss the purpose of education, the interior mental freedom for which they were created.  Education allows them to think for themselves and not be influenced by those who attempt to control them by their lack of knowledge.

Beautifully said, 8. 

[lewelma]

29 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

so this worked for you but what happened if your boys didn’t want to lay in bed reading classic books?  Did that ever happen?  

 

PLEASE DON'T QUOTE

So you are getting to the actual issue that I am facing. My ds is having some funny issues with reading. He is needing to re-read passages too many times, and is resorting to easier and easier books in his effort to enjoy himself and fix this problem (he has had some non-clinical OCD issues in the past and present). I have suggested that he read out-loud to break this habit or that he re-read books which he loves so that he will both want to read them and know that they are easy enough to handle. I've been keeping tabs on this issue for at least 6 months now, and what I am seeing is that he is reading less and less and resorting to screen time for entertainment. I've talked to him about getting some professional help or about him reading to me or with me, but he has said that he feels *very* strongly that he wants to solve this on his own, in his own way, in his own time frame.  He has always been my BIG reader, so it is sad to both me and to him that his reading has languished. And as he has found reading difficult, he is starting to switch more and more to screens to relax.  I don't want to *require* him to read because I think this will make it 'work' which will make him want to do it less and make the situation worse, but I also think that the screens are easier and are getting him into bad habits. So I have been using my standard tool kit and it has not worked. We are at the 6 month mark, so I'm wondering about top-down restricting the screens or requiring that he read *with* me.  I'm just not sure that this is a good idea, because clearly this involves some mental illness issues (clinical OCD runs in my family), so I must tread carefully. 

So perhaps you guys can see why I might want more tools in my toolbox, and why I might want to implement something more top-down, but yet be hesitant to go this route. 

Edited December 13, 2019 by lewelma

[Ausmumof3]

Edited

Edited December 13, 2019 by Ausmumof3
Quote removed

[Ausmumof3]

I think from memory your kid is older?  I think at that age switching to a more authoritarian parenting style if you haven’t had one already would be fatal.  

[lewelma]

1 minute ago, Ausmumof3 said:

You might enjoy the book “the art or reading in the age of distraction”. It was slightly sleep inducing but did raise a lot of useful suggestions as well.  I used it for myself when I found that in spite of enjoying reading I was spending less and less time doing it and reading with much less focus when I did. 
 

I also think parenting through areas of possible addiction is different to run of the mill parenting.

EEEK. I forgot to say not to quote!  Can you please remove the quote!

[lewelma]

3 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

You might enjoy the book “the art or reading in the age of distraction”. It was slightly sleep inducing but did raise a lot of useful suggestions as well.  I used it for myself when I found that in spite of enjoying reading I was spending less and less time doing it and reading with much less focus when I did. 
 

I also think parenting through areas of possible addiction is different to run of the mill parenting.

I don't think it is addiction at all. I've been very careful about keeping an eye on that.  He is just not reading, and he is sad about it.  But as books failed him, screens have been such a help to deal with his sadness I think. And it is harder to turn to reading when his passion has become hard for him.  I am off tutoring for 7 weeks, so I think I have a chance to work *with* him to fix this. The best option is to restrict screens for *both* of us so that he feels like we are in it together. 

[Ausmumof3]

3 minutes ago, lewelma said:

EEEK. I forgot to say not to quote!  Can you please remove the quote!

Done

[lewelma]

5 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I think from memory your kid is older?  I think at that age switching to a more authoritarian parenting style if you haven’t had one already would be fatal.  

My thought too! But like I said above, if we agree together to both restrict screens, this could work. Then it is not top-down but in-it-together. But then I would also need to support the reading, and I'm not sure right now if he wants that.

[...................]

31 minutes ago, lewelma said:

Beautifully said, 8. 

I was raised Catholic and went to Catholic schools for 10 out of 12 years - even when we could not afford it my mom worked cleaning the 1760 rectory which was no small task. Later in high school I earned a scholarship and even as a 14 year old understood the blessing and value that was. I think my catholic upbringing positively affected how I patented. 
 

in the beginning we were overly authoritative and if I had just called my mom or just looked at how she did things - how she WAS instead of reading all the how to books it would have gone a lot better. 

[Ausmumof3]

17 minutes ago, lewelma said:

Edited December 13, 2019 by Ausmumof3

[Ausmumof3]

1 minute ago, mms said:

You deleted this but I just wanted to say thanks for posting this thread.  Following it with great interest.  Mine are all still little but after years of reading the boards I've finally come to understand the concept of parenting the particular child in front of me.  What you describe as "intellectual partnership" is generally the vibe of our homeschool for most things and I imagine that will continue to expand to more areas as they get older, though I am definitely in the "parent as authority figure" camp.  That said, authoritarianism within the context of a Catholic family is built on trust because my children know that I and their father are also under authority, that we see our authority over them as stewardship of God's gifts, and that every member of the family is working towards a common ultimate goal.  I am also forthright about my own failings when it is appropriate.  I think that is very different from simply imposing one's will because "I'm the parent and I can."

BTW, I've never read the Explosive Child but from a google search I have implemented many of Dr. Greene's strategies simply from trial and error and select implementation of some of Rudolf Dreikurs's ideas.

Yes!  I’m not catholic but I keep thinking of the centurions words about being under authority and having authority.  We had a thing about this Sunday about the position of steward.  The household was answerable to him but he was answerable to the master.  I sometimes struggle with this because I actually don’t want to have authority it’s uncomfortable for me.  But that’s partially because I don’t want responsibility.  

[lewelma]

8 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Apologies if it sounded like I was saying it was addiction.  What I was trying to say is we have to parent differently around things that have the potential to become addictive.   While screens don’t have to be an addiction they can become one.

It can be helpful to separate out what’s being done on the screen as well?  Reading the news online or reading a newspaper is a similar use of time.  Reading a book online, watching a teacher deliver a class etc can all be pretty constructive.  Separating screen use into the mindless variety versus the constructive type can be helpful.  And also it can be helpful to pop a tracker on the screen for a bit - not for you to see what he’s doing or whatever but for his own use to look at how much times going that way.

i know for me I definitely underestimate.

im not there with parenting but struggle in this way myself.  And of course executive function stuff is another factor.

i will delete in a minute for privacy reasons 

please don't delete.

It is just the OCD label that I don't want on the board. So just that post. 

[Ausmumof3]

https://www.amazon.com/Pleasures-Reading-Age-Distraction/dp/0199747490
 

also I misquoted the book title so I’m popping it here because I think it’s quite helpful.

[lewelma]

So Gil is going to have some reading to do! haha. Would love his thoughts on my specific situation. 

[Ausmumof3]

2 minutes ago, lewelma said:

please don't delete

Ah I already did but you saved my exceptionally wise words to humanity by quoting them 😆