Testing before / during B&M high school ... need help thinking it through (sorry long)

[SKL]

Hi guys.  This is a recurring issue for me as I never feel sure what's the right course of action.  Wish I had someone IRL who could help me decide.

My kid is 13, 8th grade.  She is a decent student - works hard, cares about her grades, has some real strengths to help shore up her weaknesses.  She's taken a variety of tests - the usual group tests that B&M students take, and a few short individual ones to test achievement vs. IQ.  I have tried for more comprehensive testing but get push-back from all sides.  PS she attends a non-public K-8 but will attend public high school.

Tests support my observation that she has siginificant trouble with reasoning / math concepts.  Her IQ is average per the tests.  She gets some tutoring at school, but it mainly just helps her get that day's homework done - it doesn't get to the root of the problem.

Other issues I'm seeing recently are possible OCD, anxiety, and maybe girl ASD.

My daughter has a life goal to be a veterinarian, thus she plans to attend college and needs to be successful at it.

This week after registering for the public high school, I spoke to the school psychologist, who is in favor of comprehensive testing, but can't do it until after school starts next year.  He said she is unlikely to get an IEP but might qualify for a tutor to work with her during math class (not clear on whether this would only apply to general math or also to algebra etc.).  He recommended Khan Academy and some other ideas (but my kid doesn't have time for more practice at home right now).  He was supportive of her college aspiration.  He also recommended that I talk to the elementary school psychologist to follow up on getting more testing done now.  I called around and spoke to the person who had worked with us in 6th-7th grade, and she had no idea why the ball was dropped on additional testing back then.  She gave me the contact info for the current psych assigned to our school, and said she would make a suggestion to give my daughter a more thorough math test.  I have not yet followed up with the current psych.  I don't know what, if anything, they will do for her even if the test has interesting results.  She really needs a tutor to take her back and shore up those weak areas.

I have asked my health care people about educational testing (in the past), but they say this is up to the schools.

This week my dd had a vision appointment - historically she has had significant issues with vision which made reading a lot of work.  I mentioned to the Dr. the idea of seeking a 504 plan for when she goes to high school - the public high school psych said if she has a diagnosis they would give her accommodations.  When I brought this up, the Dr. pushed back, saying it is not a good idea to give accommodations since the kids will not learn to work hard and accommodations will be harder to get in college.  He also indicated her vision is now fine, so I guess he isn't going to help, but the whole concept of "504 is not a good idea" requires me to think some more.

I spoke to my dd again about all of this.  She does not want any more extra help or accommodations in school.  (As far as the mental health issues, she is thinking about whether or not to go to a doctor.  I told her I will hold off for now and try some things at home, but I reserve the right to decide for her on this.  Though going to the doctor without her buy-in will not work, as she will deny everything like the last time I tried that.)

I think my kid will be an OK student in high school.  I don't know if she will have enough time / time management skills to do really well in college prep classes, but I think she will pass, keep sports eligibility, and get a diploma.  I want for her to be able to get into a decent college program though.  Not trying for fancy stuff, but something solid that will lead to a good job in her field of interest.  She is young ... I can't predict whether she will be independently studious or not.  I guess that is up to her ... but I just don't want today's choices to limit the future.

Can you guys help me think this through?  Should I just accept that it is on her to work her butt off if she wants to succeed in life?  Should I push for more testing even though her K-8 school recently told me it isn't available to her?  I don't want to limit her ability to take a college prep course of study.  I would rather she get a B- average in college prep than an A average in a non-college-prep program.  Maybe we just sign up for college prep 9th grade classes and see how it goes?  (By college prep I just mean algebra / biology etc., I'm not trying for honors except maybe in English.)

[itsheresomewhere]

This is one of those times that you tell her you love her but we are going for testing.  While she is doing ok now, she really is just above water and can’t see it.  My niece was like her and it wasn’t until college she finally got help that she needed. She was an excellent student in middle and high school but by the end of senior year of high school,  it started really showing how much she was drowning.  Still my niece didn’t want help but decided to satisfy her mother.  So they first did the educational testing and then addressed the medical. In one of those appointments, a light bulb moment happened.  Now my niece is actually a big supporter of testing.  I know too many who wished they had gotten help when they were in middle and high school but their parents didn’t make them.  Go for it.  This is something I wouldn’t let just wait.  
For the record-  that eye doctor would have not only received a tongue lashing about his harmful opinion but he also would have been fired.  

Is this the one you have had some behavior issues with ( stealing food/candy and some other small stuff)?  Even more reason to get it done. 
 

 

Edited December 6, 2019 by itsheresomewhere

[Pawz4me]

1 hour ago, SKL said:

I have asked my health care people about educational testing (in the past), but they say this is up to the schools.

 

I'm far from an expert, but did you phrase it as educational testing or psychoeducational testing? I think it may make a difference, at least for some insurance plans. Suspecting things OCD/anxiety, ASD, ADHD, etc. puts testing into the medical realm, not just educational. You may need a physician referral. But again--I'm no expert. Our insurance does cover psychoeducational testing, although I know many plans don't.

[SKL]

Another thing is that I really don't like the idea of asking the teachers to give their opinions on my kids' personality.  The one time I allowed it, the teacher went off the deep end and my kid was pegged as possible ODD (at age 6).  [Because she said "yes I did that" when accused of taking candy.]  Their current teacher is a huge drama queen who loves to single my kid out over stupid things, so I can only imagine ....

The comments of my kid's 1st grade teacher were brought up to me on the phone this week.  I hate that it's in her freaking permanent file.

Edited December 6, 2019 by SKL

[MEmama]

I’m unclear what kind of testing you are looking for, but that’s probably a place to trust your mana intuition. Although yeah, you’ll definitely need your daughter's buy in, so make sure she’s clear on all the details. Few teen girls want to appear or feel out of place.

As for classes, it probably depends on the school. In my son's public high school, the requisite courses (English, maths, etc) are generally offered as remedial, academic, and honors, and often AP. Honors and AP would be considered college prep; I’m sure plenty of students in  academic courses go on to college but I don’t think it’s necessarily the only expected end game. For a study as intensive and competitive as veterinary science, I really would think she would need those honors and AP level courses, particularly in maths and sciences.

The spring before she is enrolled  is a good time to start having those conversations with her guidance counselor at the high school. Additional concerns (her vision, for example) can be brought up then as well; the councelors here have a lot of input into the services and placements that their students need. They are also a tremendous resource in figuring out the requirements for particular fields of further study; for example, if schools of veterinary science require Honors or AP bio and a 4 or 5 in AP Calc B-C, your daughter needs to know that going in so she can complete the required coursework in her 4 years of high school. If you don't want to wait until you talk with the high school, you can also research various universities she might attend and find those requirements yourself. Knowing some general requirements might help you map out the remainder of her 8th grade year so she start high school where she needs to be.

[katilac]

Yes, she needs testing, a complete evaluation. Pick up the phone and arrange it privately. Call right now because it can take a while to get an appointment. It will still be quicker than waiting for high school to begin, and almost certainly more thorough. 

I know that time flies and that the school has given you contradictory information at times, but you've been wondering for years and years if this dd needs testing. Yes, she needs testing. There are specific strategies to help with some learning differences. Why should she have to gut it out and struggle more than necessary and maybe give up on some dreams when there is the possibility of help and advice and strategies? Average grades do not get anyone into vet school. And that's okay, the vast majority of applicants don't make it into vet school, but knowing more about her learning differences will probably do more to help her succeed than any number of tutors. 

In my experience, by the time a parent is wondering if a child needs testing, they almost certainly do. If the wondering continues for months, much less years, then testing is definitely called for. 

I would say the same for possible anxiety and other issues: if you've been wondering, then yes, she needs testing. Whatever you're seeing of her anxiety is likely the tip of the iceberg, because so much goes on in your head that is very hard to articulate. She should also have a physical and blood work done. 

I just saw your new post. When you bring her to the doctor, make sure you leave the room when anxiety/depression is discussed. If your doctor isn't insisting on this, it may be time for a new doctor. If she's been with the same doctor for a long time, she may also be more willing to open up to a new one. Sometimes a doctor you know is comforting, sometimes it's just embarrassing. 

You can't make her talk about it, true, but you can start the ball rolling with the bloodwork and such, leave the room, and hope for the best. Also, as far as other testing goes, denying this or that isn't likely to make a difference in a possible ASD diagnosis. 

Commit to testing and start making calls today. You will feel so much better once you make a solid decision and quit going back and forth about it. 

[mathnerd]

@SKL cross post this in the Learning challenges board - there are several posters there who are familiar with similar issues and they may not be checking the chat board.

[katilac]

10 minutes ago, MEmama said:

 For a study as intensive and competitive as veterinary science, I really would think she would need those honors and AP level courses, particularly in maths and sciences.

 They are also a tremendous resource in figuring out the requirements for particular fields of further study; for example, if schools of veterinary science require Honors or AP bio and a 4 or 5 in AP Calc B-C, your daughter needs to know that going in so she can complete the required coursework in her 4 years of high school. 

Just one example, but my cousin is a vet and she did not take many honors classes (maybe not any), and she did not take any AP courses. It's better to get a very solid foundation in high school than to flounder in courses at too high of a level. 

Colleges will look at your high school record, vet schools will look at your college record. High school classes will not be reviewed. Of course, you need to prepare for lots of math and science in college, but it's better to thoroughly understand regular biology than to flounder in honors. 

One thing they will consider from high school and before is involvement with animals. Pets, pet sitting, volunteering at the shelter, working at a vet in any capacity, 4-H projects . . . keep track of every last thing involving animals. Experience at the shelter or vet is ideal because it shows them you've had a glimpse at the heartbreaking side of animal care. 

Because college GPA and score on the GRE are very important parts of the application, anyone hoping to go to vet school should absolutely know as much as possible about any learning differences they may have and how to deal with them. 

SKL, I'm going to jump back to the person who said she shouldn't get testing or accommodations now because it's harder to get accommodations in college. First of all, many colleges AND vet schools do an excellent job with accommodations.  Second of all, just because there is an increased chance of struggle and possible failure in the future doesn't mean she has to resign herself to extra struggle and failure now. Ideally, testing will help her pinpoint strategies that will help her succeed. Four years of knowledge and practice can be very powerful. But you always have to deal with where she is right now. If she needs accommodations to learn at her best, then she needs them. Good testing will help nail down what accommodations are truly needed and helpful, whereas her current school just seems to be guessing and randomly trying things. 

[Storygirl]

I agree with previous posters.

You can pay out of pocket for testing, if your insurance will not cover it. You are likely to need to see multiple people -- someone who is an expert at diagnosing autism in girls may not be the same person who tests for learning disabilities or OCD.

I've had three out of four of my kids go through neuropsych testing, and then one of them had autism testing by a different psych. My recommendation is to focus first on figuring out the autism and OCD questions. My experience is that the school will do it's own academic testing, even if you have private results. But many/most schools will not do autism testing, and they won't touch the OCD question at all but would consider it medical. So get those done first, then submit them to the school with an official request for evaluations.

The high school person's comment about not being able do the testing until the fall is just their preference. Legally, the public school is required to perform testing within a certain timeline after an official WRITTEN request. There are laws regarding this, and you need to learn them. The school can say they don't want to do testing verbally, so you need to make your request official. There is a ton of relevant information on the state department of education website. I also recommend this book https://www.amazon.com/Complete-IEP-Guide-Advocate-Special/dp/1413323855/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=NOLO+IEP&qid=1575654343&sr=8-1

Now, since your daughter is in 8th grade, right now, the public school MIDDLE school is the right place to submit your request. It's possible that the high school psych said that he could not do it until next year, because she is not in high school yet. Call your public school district's department of special education (sometimes called pupil services) and ask to talk with the director. He or she should be able to guide you better, since they oversee the entire school district and not just the high school.

Do follow through with the current private school, as well. But the private school and public school should be working together. Yes, they can communicate with each other about this -- if nothing else, send an email to BOTH the private school and public school people to get them connected to each other. The reason is that the public school may not "like" the testing the private school chooses to do, and they may want to repeat things their own way. In which case, it's better to get the public school involved in the testing process from the beginning.

Yes, public schools will test private school students. If the private school is not within the same town that your public school district serves, it becomes more complicated (we had this situation ourselves), but it still can happen. I'd be happy to communicate with you via PM regarding the private school / public school situation, and other details that might help you, if you would like.

 

[Tanaqui]

Your kid's doctor is wrong. Flat out wrong.

[MEmama]

This is from UMass Amherst, just to give her an idea of the expectations for that particular school of veterinary and animal sciences. Most of it deals with university experience, but for more relevant info pay attention to points 4, 10, 13, and especially 16.

https://www.vasci.umass.edu/sites/vasci/files/so_you_think_you_want_to_go_vet_school.pdf

I hope this a helpful place to start.

eta: I think it’s great you are getting her the math help she needs now. As someone who struggled through basic high school maths, I totally understand the torture. My student tutor, well meaning as he was, just didn’t have the tools needed to the root of my issues. I hope you find what she needs. 

Edited December 6, 2019 by MEmama

[Guest]

From what I've seen, colleges are actually better at giving accommodations than high schools are for a kid who can pass classes without them, but has an identifiable need. And a lot better than the ACT/SAT folks. 

[ktgrok]

You could start with paying for a private IQ and achievement test series, to see if there are gaps in the achievement not explained by her IQ. That will give you more evidence for trying to push for additional testing. 

As for the mental health stuff, including OCD, ADHD, ASD, etc maybe start getting her on board by watching some videos with her, or sharing them to her if she will watch them? How to ADHD is a fantastic channel by a young lady and very relatable. I'ms sure there are others on the other topics. Might get her to realize there is no shame in getting accommodations and help.