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wendyroo

I Hate CLE Math!!

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4 hours ago, mstah3121 said:

 

If he is failing to meet it  50% of the time, then the bar is too high, even if that feels impossible.  Special needs kiddos should be working at a 90% success rate, which means you keep lowering the bar until you find that.

 

Sometimes it's not that simple. For example, she has physical safety for her other kids on the list, she can't just take that off because it's too high a bar.  There are some things you just need to keep working at, even if they seem impossible, because there just isn't another choice.  It also sounds like the structure of an expected task, is one of the things that makes things workable with her other kids.  Some kids struggle with structure, but also struggle when it isn't there, so just dropping math could make things worse, not better.  

But even when 90% does make sense as a goal, it's 90% of each task, not that 90% of every day is perfect.  The latter just isn't possible.  She could easily be failing to get all 7 things done on 50% of the days, and also getting 6/7 things done many days.  

Having said that, I don't have a suggestion.  I just wanted to say that as a parent of another 2E mentally ill kid, I can totally understand the frustration of being limited, because of your kids' illness, to things you'd never pick otherwise, and feeling frustrated by the strategies you end up using (or in this case the curriculum you end up using) because they're not at all what you'd pick if mental illness wasn't a factor.  

I hope you find solutions.  I actually have a fair amount of experience with similar kids to yours, although my own 2E mentally ill kid expresses his differences differently, so if you ever wanted a brainstorming thread I'd be happy to participate, but it sounds like what you need here is an acknowledgment that this aspect of CLE is lousy, and that it sucks that you're stuck with it.  

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55 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Question - if you dropped math, would it lower his stress or would he just tantrum about something different instead? If the former, I'd drop it since he's ahead anyway, so no harm in dropping it and letting him have more reading time instead. If you phrased it as "you can do math, or read whatever non fiction you want" would he happily read or just find a reason to have an argument anyway?

If he'd happily read, obviously I'd say do that. Save the battles for underwear and tooth brushing. 

If he would just fight then about reading, and I have that kid that would, then yeah, my sympathies. 

He would just tantrum about something different.  He REALLY, REALLY doesn't handled constrained choices well.

Today I was reading aloud to the kids while they colored.  Elliot didn't want to listen; fine, I told him he was welcome to play instead.  He whined that he would be alone; fine, if he wanted company he could help DH install a shelf in the laundry room instead.  No, he only wanted someone to play with him.  He didn't want to listen to the story, he didn't want to play by himself, and he didn't want to help DH.  I expressed empathy that none of his options sounded good to him, and then I kept reading.  Predictably, he started melting down and having aggressive behaviors.  He started throwing crayons at the TV and other kids, kicking at my legs and feet, stomping around and pounding on the windows, etc.  After a warning I locked him in his room for everyone's safety.  He continued his tantrum up there for over an hour.

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9 minutes ago, wendyroo said:

He would just tantrum about something different.  He REALLY, REALLY doesn't handled constrained choices well.

Today I was reading aloud to the kids while they colored.  Elliot didn't want to listen; fine, I told him he was welcome to play instead.  He whined that he would be alone; fine, if he wanted company he could help DH install a shelf in the laundry room instead.  No, he only wanted someone to play with him.  He didn't want to listen to the story, he didn't want to play by himself, and he didn't want to help DH.  I expressed empathy that none of his options sounded good to him, and then I kept reading.  Predictably, he started melting down and having aggressive behaviors.  He started throwing crayons at the TV and other kids, kicking at my legs and feet, stomping around and pounding on the windows, etc.  After a warning I locked him in his room for everyone's safety.  He continued his tantrum up there for over an hour.


I have worked with a few kids where there were moments when it felt like there was a tantrum hanging over their head, just waiting to attach itself to something.  In your scenario above, if Dad had stopped and played he wouldn't have wanted Dad, or to play in that way, or for it to be raining.  In reality, it has nothing to do with the options, and everything to do with the fact that they feel miserable, and need to express that misery.  

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20 minutes ago, CuriousMomof3 said:


I have worked with a few kids where there were moments when it felt like there was a tantrum hanging over their head, just waiting to attach itself to something.  In your scenario above, if Dad had stopped and played he wouldn't have wanted Dad, or to play in that way, or for it to be raining.  In reality, it has nothing to do with the options, and everything to do with the fact that they feel miserable, and need to express that misery.  

Exactly.

We have been able to "see" that misery in him since before his second birthday, but no one has a clue where it comes from or how to help alleviate it.  I can serve all of his favorite foods for every meal and he will tantrum because they are too hot or not arranged properly on his plate or because he doesn't like his fork or now he doesn't like any of those foods anymore and all he is willing to eat is jello.  I can do all his chores for him and he will tantrum because I moved his dirty laundry pile out of his room and into the hamper or because while I am doing his chores I can't simultaneously be playing Go Fish with him.  I can tell him he doesn't have to do any math...or even any school at all...and he will tear up a library book and feed it down the heating vent or stand in the doorway and throw pencils at the kids who are doing school or incomprehensibly start throwing a tantrum because I won't "let" him do his math.

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15 minutes ago, wendyroo said:

Exactly.

We have been able to "see" that misery in him since before his second birthday, but no one has a clue where it comes from or how to help alleviate it.  I can serve all of his favorite foods for every meal and he will tantrum because they are too hot or not arranged properly on his plate or because he doesn't like his fork or now he doesn't like any of those foods anymore and all he is willing to eat is jello.  I can do all his chores for him and he will tantrum because I moved his dirty laundry pile out of his room and into the hamper or because while I am doing his chores I can't simultaneously be playing Go Fish with him.  I can tell him he doesn't have to do any math...or even any school at all...and he will tear up a library book and feed it down the heating vent or stand in the doorway and throw pencils at the kids who are doing school or incomprehensibly start throwing a tantrum because I won't "let" him do his math.

 

That kind of organic mental illness, which starts within a child, and seems inexplicable can be so hard to problem solve.  I agree with whoever above said that sometimes adolescence can bring a little more rationality.  

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Have you worked with a professional on sensory diet?

Have you worked with a psych w/ gifted expertise on the decision to use authoritarian vs authoritative parenting?

Edited by HeighHo

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18 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

Have you worked with a professional on sensory diet?

Have you worked with a psych w/ gifted expertise on the decision to use authoritarian vs authoritative parenting?

 

I feel as though this is a major oversimplification.  

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10 hours ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

 

I feel as though this is a major oversimplification.  

 

Its  a question and it refers to the body of research that an educational psych who is qualified to work with gifted and 2e would know of and have as part of the options that the parents could consider in helping a gifted 2e child de-stress and get his smile quotient a bit higher and maybe even learn something academic in school. Of course if they don't know its an option, they'll never consider it, hence my query.

Do you have ideas or shared experience pertaining to gifted & 2e to add, or are you just looking for the 'one ring' and throwing a rock at my shared experience, stating its not the 'one ring' you are looking for? I'd love to hear shared experience or ideas that pertain to gifted or 2e.

Edited by HeighHo

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11 hours ago, HeighHo said:

Have you worked with a psych w/ gifted expertise on the decision to use authoritarian vs authoritative parenting?

Not in those terms, no.

My parenting has been scrutinized, analysed, and critiqued for the last ~8 years (since DS1 entered the world of mental health care).  The most common ways it is described by mental health professionals is engaged, consistent, proactive, and therapeutic.  I run a very structured home both because that is how I best function and because that is how my 2e children thrive.  Through that structure I aim to set the kids up for success - by arranging the physical environment, implementing routines, maintaining consistent boundaries and logical consequences, and by carving out copious amounts of time every day to spend on positive discipline (in the teaching sense) and on social thinking skills.  I strive to always say what I mean and mean what I say, and never give instructions I will not be able to follow through on and enforce (even if that requires helping a child hand over hand).  My goal is to say yes when I can and no when I must, and my no's are firm, consistent, well-established boundaries that will not be swayed by negative behaviors.

Over the years I have just accepted that I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't.  Someone - online, in the extended family, in public - will always think that my parenting style is too structured or too lax or too restrictive or too hard-assed or too something else.  Three quarters of my children have mental illnesses and neurodevelopmental delays - the world is rife with Monday morning quarterbacks convinced that it is all my fault.

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Some kids are going to struggle regardless of environment.

I know you work harder than just about any parent or there. 

Edited by maize
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5 hours ago, HeighHo said:

 

Its  a question and it refers to the body of research that an educational psych who is qualified to work with gifted and 2e would know of and have as part of the options that the parents could consider in helping a gifted 2e child de-stress and get his smile quotient a bit higher and maybe even learn something academic in school. Of course if they don't know its an option, they'll never consider it, hence my query.


Dividing parenting into a handful of styles, like "authoritarian" and "authoritative" and picking one might work for kids who are NT, or for parents who don't know where to begin.  But when a child is as complex as this child is, then the parenting solutions need to be equally complex.  I know for my own mentally ill 2E kid, every routine, expectation, etc. . . has been carefully worked out, often with the input of specialists.    It sounds as though Wendy is in a similar situation, and is already being thoughtful  and loving and utilizing many different resources, including professionals, as she makes choices for her children.   

5 hours ago, HeighHo said:

Do you have ideas or shared experience pertaining to gifted & 2e to add, or are you just looking for the 'one ring' and throwing a rock at my shared experience, stating its not the 'one ring' you are looking for? I'd love to hear shared experience or ideas that pertain to gifted or 2e.

Yes, I have experience with 2E kids.  I'm a special education teacher.  I started my career in therapeutic settings for kindergarten through third grade students with emotional disturbance, including children who were 2E.  I'm also the parent of a gifted 9 year old with mental illness and other disabilities, although he presents very differently from Wendy's son.  

I didn't read Wendy's original message as an indication that she's looking to change her parenting style, or that she needs to.  I read it as a vent about a specific math program.  I've never used that particular math program, but I do have the shared experience of parenting a child who needs different curriculum that I'd usually choose, so I know how frustrating that could be.  So, I shared that experience earlier on this thread.   Later, she shared an incident about her child that reminded me of students' I've worked with previously, and so I shared some of my experiences in return.  Neither of those comments were meant as suggestions, just as acknowledgment that mental illness in children can be very difficult, and that a parent can be skilled, and caring, and working with top professionals, and still have struggles.  

Beyond that, I'm not going to offer advice, partially because I'm not interested in second guessing her or her team, and partially because this thread was written as a vent, and therefore doesn't have enough information for me to suggest anything specific.  If Wendy decides she wants to ask for specific advice, I'd be happy to give it, but would probably ask a lot of questions first.  But, I'll also say that in my experience too many cooks can spoil the broth, and so I won't assume that she should ask.  

 

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One of my children would only do math, or any subject really, when I would sit with him the entire time and make it interactive. In his case, he did Singapore Math. We did it verbally and on the dry erase board and so on. We skipped reviews in the book and did computer programs for review type stuff. He still did the workbooks though. But just the basic workbook, no extra add ons. 

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4 hours ago, Janeway said:

One of my children would only do math, or any subject really, when I would sit with him the entire time and make it interactive. In his case, he did Singapore Math. We did it verbally and on the dry erase board and so on. We skipped reviews in the book and did computer programs for review type stuff. He still did the workbooks though. But just the basic workbook, no extra add ons. 

I have 3 children who can only do schoolwork when I am sitting right beside them

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On 11/30/2019 at 11:43 AM, wendyroo said:

This is mostly just a vent.

Every day I find myself grinding my teeth and scowling about something in the CLE math books.  Today it was the instruction, "Multiply by 6 to make equal fractions."  They then had a row of fractions: 1/4 =           1/2 =             5/6 =             2/7 = 
NO!!  That is incredibly confusing and misleading.  You cannot multiply a fraction by 6 and end up with an equal fraction!!!  The whole point of equivalent fractions is that you have to multiply by 1...even if you call it 6/6.  I understand what they are going for, but I think that instruction is horribly written.

 

I just looked at the grade 4 Rod and Staff Math sample and found it interesting that it showed this exact subject matter but with a clear explanation as to how and why to multiply the numerator and denominator by the same number to get equivalent fractions. I think many explanations in the samples I've looked through make more sense to me than the ones in CLE. I am seriously considering switching because CLE is moving soooo fast this year and I really want more mastery to help build both skill and confidence in DS. He's not gifted, nor does he have learning challenges so I cannot possibly relate in this way. But I applaud your persistence and effort to find what will work and pray that the road ahead will be smoother.

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