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wendyroo

I Hate CLE Math!!

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This is mostly just a vent.

Long story somewhat shorter, my second son, Elliot, 8 years old, has a LOT of mental health challenges.  These greatly, greatly (I cannot emphasize enough how much) impact his ability to do school work...and pretty much everything else.  He is a very smart, mathy, 2e kiddo, but realistically he can do very little successfully due to his anxiety, ADHD, autism, ODD and DMDD.

Math has long been his most hated subject...sort of.  He loves Murderous Math books and reading Beast Academy guides and Life of Fred books, but when it comes to him actually doing any math (in workbooks, games, oral discuss, etc) he strongly objects...often with hours of violent, destructive tantrums.  The ironic part is, he is actually really good at math.  If I assign two pages of Math Mammoth (with about half the problems crossed out), he will punch holes in walls for 3+ hours and then eventually do the math accurately and independently in about 10 minutes.  This has been the story of our lives for the last 3 years.

Over the years we have tried a plethora of math curricula trying to find anything that was easier on all of us: Math Mammoth (this is what my other kids use), Singapore, Singapore Process Skills, Singapore Challenging Word Problems, Miquon,  Evan-Moor Daily Word Problems, Star Wars math workbooks, Beast Academy, Hands on Equations, Hands on Geometry, Patty Paper Geometry, random Kumon and Target math workbooks, etc.  I have also tried moving him both up and down in levels - maybe he would do better with easier math...no - maybe he needs more of a challenge...no.  In all cases, intellectually he can complete the math, but emotionally he can't or won't.

Finally, in desperation, I tried CLE.  From the very beginning it felt like a sell-out.  He is a strong, conceptual math thinker (and math doer when the mood strikes him), and CLE felt way too simplistic and algorithmic.  But I printed out some samples from CLE 4 and he completed them quickly and easily with fewer complaints than normal...and, again, at this point I am desperate.  So I bought 406 through 410.

Every day I find myself grinding my teeth and scowling about something in the CLE math books.  Today it was the instruction, "Multiply by 6 to make equal fractions."  They then had a row of fractions: 1/4 =           1/2 =             5/6 =             2/7 = 
NO!!  That is incredibly confusing and misleading.  You cannot multiply a fraction by 6 and end up with an equal fraction!!!  The whole point of equivalent fractions is that you have to multiply by 1...even if you call it 6/6.  I understand what they are going for, but I think that instruction is horribly written.

Plus, the icing on the cake is that Elliot has now started rejecting CLE as well.  Today we timed it and it took 3 and a half hours of tantrumming and 17 minutes of actual work to get his CLE lesson done.  I don't even know where to go from here.  I have already scaled all of his school work back so, so far.  He isn't writing anything (no copywork, dication or independent writing) and he won't even orally narrated anything.  He won't read assigned books.  He has started refusing all extracurriculars, so he won't even do art or rock climbing or other fun activities any more.  And I have made my peace with all of that for the time being (with the blessing of his mental health team).  All I am insisting on every day is 15-20 minutes of math and about an hour of listening to me read aloud...really, that is all I can insist on because getting those accomplished often takes all day.  😥

Thanks for listening.
Wendy

 

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I agree with you about that instruction.  I have no idea what they mean.  Do you think it’s a typo?  

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15 minutes ago, EKS said:

I agree with you about that instruction.  I have no idea what they mean.  Do you think it’s a typo?  

No, because it comes up repeatedly.  In another few lessons it says "Multiply by 7 to make equal fractions."  According to the answer key they want the child to multiply (both the numerator and denominator) by 6 to change 1/4 into 6/24.  It is an incredibly procedural way of looking at equivalent fractions and ignores that multiplying both the numerator and denominator by 6 is not in fact the same thing as multiplying the fraction by 6.

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10 minutes ago, wendyroo said:

No, because it comes up repeatedly.  In another few lessons it says "Multiply by 7 to make equal fractions."  According to the answer key they want the child to multiply (both the numerator and denominator) by 6 to change 1/4 into 6/24.  It is an incredibly procedural way of looking at equivalent fractions and ignores that multiplying both the numerator and denominator by 6 is not in fact the same thing as multiplying the fraction by 6.

Procedural is one thing.  That’s just totally wrong!  If they had specified top and bottom it would have made more sense.  

I’m sorry you’re having to deal with this on top of everything else.

 

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Eeeeep. That phrasing would drive me up the wall. 

I'm sorry your kiddo is having such a hard time :-(. Is it possible he just needs to focus on his emotional needs and ignore the academic ones for now? It sounds like it'll be easy for him to catch up on the academics when he's ready, but that the emotional issues are going to be with him for life...

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Ugh. BTDT with an oppositional ASD/ADHD/Anxiety/Depression kid and now with a sweet not at all normally oppositional but easily frustrated to tears/shutting down/melting down/even throwing things kid with PANDAS and ADHD. Ugh. 

What worked last year when the young one was in his bad flare and freaking out of CLE math was Khan academy. It's fast. They can see progress - as in see how much more left in the grade level, etc. They can jump around. And no human to yell at. Yelling at the computer is less satisfying it seems 🙂 I don't love it bcause it is very little practice/review but he is mathy enough that he doesn't really need the review the way my older one did. 

For the older one TT worked sort of....but not really. We eventually hit a point of nothing working. Then he wanted to go to Public school so he on his own choice cram studied on Khan to pass the end of course Algebra exam so he'd get credit for doing it at home (even though he barely did it). 

Bigger question is what stressors does he have, and is there anyway to reduce them? So on days you want him to do math (and maybe not daily if he's smart enough to move fast via Khan - my 7 year old did a year's worth in 2 months via the "missions") can you reduce all other obligations? 

Can you sneak learning in via audiobooks on in the car? 

But I agree that math is a big one....is there any currency that he'd be bribed with? One of mine that would work, the other would get offended I offered a bribe and double down on refusing. Sigh. 

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Thanks for the heads up. We're in the grade 4 textbook. Glad to know it's not just me noticing this because I've been going crazy, slowing down, reteaching concepts to aid in understanding, ect. We recently jumped from multiplying by double digits (for less than a week) to long division! But CLE never taught how to distinguish a normal division problem from a long division problem when they are both set up in the same format. It's not a difficult thing to teach and took less than 5 minutes, but it is something the student needs to know that was not addressed in the curriculum.

Edited by Servant4Christ
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1 hour ago, square_25 said:

Eeeeep. That phrasing would drive me up the wall. 

I'm sorry your kiddo is having such a hard time :-(. Is it possible he just needs to focus on his emotional needs and ignore the academic ones for now? It sounds like it'll be easy for him to catch up on the academics when he's ready, but that the emotional issues are going to be with him for life...

This is such a mixed bag.  On one hand, I am completely ready, willing, and able to set academics aside for therapy, social thinking, and any productive activities at which he can be successful.  OTOH, for all sorts of reasons he simply must do SOMETHING to fill his hours.  He is the second oldest of four kids, and if I give up on academics and leave his at loose ends for most of the morning, 1) it will cause mutiny among the others and 2) Elliot will spend that whole time being as mean and disruptive and oppositional and messy as possible.  He is intrinsically driven to fight tooth and nail for absolute control over everyone and everything, and if I am not making any demands on him then he will create his own conflicts.

17 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Ugh. BTDT with an oppositional ASD/ADHD/Anxiety/Depression kid and now with a sweet not at all normally oppositional but easily frustrated to tears/shutting down/melting down/even throwing things kid with PANDAS and ADHD. Ugh. 

What worked last year when the young one was in his bad flare and freaking out of CLE math was Khan academy. It's fast. They can see progress - as in see how much more left in the grade level, etc. They can jump around. And no human to yell at. Yelling at the computer is less satisfying it seems 🙂 I don't love it bcause it is very little practice/review but he is mathy enough that he doesn't really need the review the way my older one did. 

For the older one TT worked sort of....but not really. We eventually hit a point of nothing working. Then he wanted to go to Public school so he on his own choice cram studied on Khan to pass the end of course Algebra exam so he'd get credit for doing it at home (even though he barely did it). 

Bigger question is what stressors does he have, and is there anyway to reduce them? So on days you want him to do math (and maybe not daily if he's smart enough to move fast via Khan - my 7 year old did a year's worth in 2 months via the "missions") can you reduce all other obligations? 

Can you sneak learning in via audiobooks on in the car? 

But I agree that math is a big one....is there any currency that he'd be bribed with? One of mine that would work, the other would get offended I offered a bribe and double down on refusing. Sigh. 

If Elliot wanted to go to public school...well, first I wouldn't really believe or trust him.  He has never made and stuck with a choice (even very small choices like what book he wants me to read at bedtime) in his whole life.  He thrives on causing mayhem and frustrating others.  But, if he did want to go, I would send him.  At this point, however, he does not want to go and I while I am still strong enough to physically force him into a public school building, it would take him much less effort to act in such a way that they sent him right back home.

His stressors...people, places, weather, events, choices, lack of choices, sensory overload, sensory underload, sticking to a schedule, deviating from a schedule...aka life.  His life and behavior have been scrutinized by a bevy of psychologists, psychiatrists, therapists, social workers, etc, and at this point we have settled on a very small number of incredibly concrete, absolutely non-negotiable requirements.  Things like, he must brush his teeth twice a day, and he can know with complete certainty that if he refuses that DH and I will physically restrain him and do it for him...without fail.  Math falls into that category...and he is not a flexible enough thinker to cope with requirements that only happen on certain days.

Yes, we do a lot of audiobooks in the car.  He defiantly says that he refuses to listen, and sometimes covers his ears with his hands, but whatever, at this point I don't care.

His only currency is control.  Complete, unfettered control.  To his way of thinking, it is better to thumb his nose at a reward rather than giving in to "the man" and doing what is asked of him.  Recently I tested him to see just how far he would take this.  Every day Elliot plays with legos for several hours.  A couple weeks ago I told the kids after lunch that anyone who showed me something interesting they had made of legos during rest time would be eligible for a special snack.  He immediately, haughtily announced that he would not be making anything.  He actually spent most of rest time hurling legos across the room and trying to ruin the other kids' creations to the point that I had to relocate them away from him.  After rest time when the other kids proudly showed me their creations, Elliot disdainfully told me that he didn't even like special snacks, so there!   And then I handed out candy bars to the other kids, Elliot LOST HIS SHIT and spent the rest of the day tantrumming in his room all because he refused to do something that he willing does every other day just because on that particular day I had requested it.  😕

Wendy

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1 minute ago, wendyroo said:

 

His only currency is control.  Complete, unfettered control.  To his way of thinking, it is better to thumb his nose at a reward rather than giving in to "the man" and doing what is asked of him. 

Wendy

I can so so so identify with this scenario. Not in an "I understand it" way, because I still don't. But I've lived it. 

If it helps AT ALL, he's SO SO SO SO much better now!!!! And really, things got a LOT better around age 13. He developed a sense of cause and effect at that point, and that made EVERYTHING easier. Before that he had NO concept of cause and effect, so rewards/punishments were totally ineffective and pointless. I still remember, as does my husband, the day he didn't do something I expected him to do (that was wrong/dangerous/etc) and when I commented he said, "well of course I didn't - you would have gotten mad". My jaw dropped in shock, and my husband and I just stared at each other. I would have been less shocked if he'd grown a second head. 

So take heart - he may grow and develop enough that things that should work on a kid DO work. Not all the time - he still was more than happy to cut his own nose off to spite his face but less and less with every year. And as he got older we COULD give him more control of his life which lowered his stress enough that he was less of a PIA about the stuff that wasn't in his control. 

I'm going to offer this suggestion knowing it very likely won't work, but given the control issues, can you give him three different math options to choose from, and he can pick which one to do each day? Like we do with toddlers, to give them some autonomy? So "you can work on Khan Academy, or do a page from Math Lesson for a Living Education (short to the point lessons) or a lesson on CTC or Teaching Textbooks" type thing? 

And again, highly advise computer based programs to lessen the drama. But get the Square Trade warranty on the laptop so if?when he throws it in frustration you can get a replacement. 

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1 hour ago, Ktgrok said:

I'm going to offer this suggestion knowing it very likely won't work, but given the control issues, can you give him three different math options to choose from, and he can pick which one to do each day? Like we do with toddlers, to give them some autonomy? So "you can work on Khan Academy, or do a page from Math Lesson for a Living Education (short to the point lessons) or a lesson on CTC or Teaching Textbooks" type thing? 

And again, highly advise computer based programs to lessen the drama. But get the Square Trade warranty on the laptop so if?when he throws it in frustration you can get a replacement. 

As a matter of fact, he does have three option for math at any given time...largely so that each time he destroys one of them I can grab one of the others out of the drawer and calmly place it in front of him without missing a beat.   😄  According to him they are all equally unacceptable. 

Oh, yes, on the laptop destruction.  It didn't even take math to push him to that - I simply told him he had to wait a minute to tell me a joke because I was in the middle of puking and the laptop was an innocent victim of a fatal mauling.

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2 hours ago, square_25 said:

That sounds ridiculously, impossibly difficult. Does he behave equally badly for everyone else? 

Eventually, yes.  At first he tests a new adult.  Then he starts pushing limits to see how much they will give.  At some point, every adult must draw some firm boundary - they simply cannot allow unsafe, destructive, aggressive, disruptive behaviors...and he knows it!!  So eventually they put their foot down, or more often just pass him back to me, which on one hand was exactly what Elliot was aiming for, subconsciously he is driven to push until he finds a person's breaking point, but on the other hand he views it as the ultimate harassment because he has no perspective taking or flexible thinking skills and therefore can only see as far as what he wants in that moment.  Like Katie said, he has no practical understanding of cause and effect.  He is driven almost entirely by his "lizard brain" and its reactions to his anxiety, ADHD, autism and other mental illnesses.

Unfortunately, despite being on a plethora of meds, there is nothing we can do to "fix" any of this.  There is a chance he might outgrow it...or it could get worse as he gets older.  So it isn't a matter of setting aside academics for the time being and waiting it out.  This is the kid he was at age 2, and this is largely the kid he will be for the rest of the years that I am charged with his well-being.  We have to find some workable plan to move us forward, even if the costs are high and the rewards are low.

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That sounds so, so horrible for all of you.

What an exhausting struggle. I'm sorry.

(fwiw, I started CLE in 5th grade, and found it a lot better than I expected conceptually. If you find it's your best option, at least some of the time, with him, it may get better as you go.) 

 

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There’s no way “multiply by 6” should mean “multiply both numerator and denominator by 6,” because “multiply by 6” has a very well-specified meaning. That’s unrelated to it being a procedural program.

And you can’t teach someone that 6/6 is 6, because it isn’t. It’s equal to 1.

Edited by square_25
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41 minutes ago, mshanson3121 said:

 

Different things for different folks. CLE is an incredibly strong program, but it's DEFINITELY not for everyone!!! My ASD daughter loves it, my other son, meh. But, I'm not sure, given your description, why you would even have tried it! As soon as you finished describing your son, I could see where this was going and the bad ending ahead lol. 

So here's a question for you - if he has that many challenges, and is happy doing LOF, Beast Academy (which is a full, solid curric) and Math Mystery books - why on Earth are you trying to get him to do something he hates and causes that level of anxiety, aggression and downright violence? 

No offense, but it doesn't even make sense, and is incredibly unfair to your son. Accept that math isn't going to look normal in your home, there isn't going to be written work or workbooks, and.... move on. 

Kill n drill isn't necessary for everyone, and by the sounds of things, especially not your son. LET IT GO - and give your son AND you, some peace. ♥️

I believe she said he would read LoF and Beast Academy guides, but not work any problems.

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1 hour ago, mshanson3121 said:

 

Different things for different folks. CLE is an incredibly strong program, but it's DEFINITELY not for everyone!!! My ASD daughter loves it, my other son, meh. But, I'm not sure, given your description, why you would even have tried it! As soon as you finished describing your son, I could see where this was going and the bad ending ahead lol. 

So here's a question for you - if he has that many challenges, and is happy doing LOF, Beast Academy (which is a full, solid curric) and Math Mystery books - why on Earth are you trying to get him to do something he hates and causes that level of anxiety, aggression and downright violence? 

No offense, but it doesn't even make sense, and is incredibly unfair to your son. Accept that math isn't going to look normal in your home, there isn't going to be written work or workbooks, and.... move on. 

Kill n drill isn't necessary for everyone, and by the sounds of things, especially not your son. LET IT GO - and give your son AND you, some peace. ♥️

 

35 minutes ago, Mom2mthj said:

I believe she said he would read LoF and Beast Academy guides, but not work any problems.

Correct. 

I can be, and have been, incredibly flexible about how math is done.  It certainly does not need to involve a workbook or any paper and pencil at all.  But, IMO, math cannot be reduced to merely a spectator sport.  Simply reading slightly math-themed fiction books does not an adequate math education make.

It certainly would be peaceful if I gave up on really teaching him math, but I am no more likely to give up on that goal than give up on making him brush his teeth, eat healthy foods, stop self-injuring, use his asthma inhaler, overcome his anxiety about going outside, etc.  Giving up on those things would also be much easier and more peaceful, but Elliot is 1) a child and 2) mentally ill, so his brain cannot be trusted to make good, healthy choices for himself.

Wendy

 

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Just now, mstah3121 said:

 

So how on Earth do you want them to phrase it? I mean seriously, for young kids, all they need is "multiply the top and bottom by 6". The whole point of a classical Education is that the grammar stage is rote and procedural.... 


Which is why I don’t buy the full classical education model. My kids can do things that are not procedural at young ages. So can most kids I’ve met.

”Multiply top and bottom by 6” would be fine. “Multiply by 6” is not in any way fine. 3/5 multiplied by 6 is 18/5, or 3 and 3/5. Even if you’re going to lean procedural, you should get the language right. 

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2 hours ago, mshanson3121 said:

They do specify it, in later levels. CLE is incremental. They teach rote early, and expand on the why later, when children are more mature and better able to understand the why. 

Sometimes, it's the opposite, too. For example, if in an earlier book they have already taught that 6 is 6/6, then that knowledge is assumed in their questions, so it's perfectly fine to say "multiply by 6" because the child has already previously been taught what 6 means and what to do with it. 

CLE isn't an easy program to just jump into, because of their incremental approach. 

I have no problem with incremental.  I do have a problem with wrong.  Saxon, which is also incremental, would never do this.  

Why not say multiply top and bottom by 6?  Why eliminate the words top and bottom?  

It makes me wonder what other oddities like this are lurking in CLE.

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Just an FYI everyone. CLE absolutely teaches to multiply both the top and bottom and why. It was in Light unit 307. The 400 level is assuming you have already  even taught that or been through their program. See this sample from 307 to see how it was taught. 
 

https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/prod-clp-files/public/documents/2654/original/Math_307.pdf

 

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4 minutes ago, hands-on-mama said:

Just an FYI everyone. CLE absolutely teaches to multiply both the top and bottom and why. It was in Light unit 307. The 400 level is assuming you have already  even taught that or been through their program. See this sample from 307 to see how it was taught. 
 

https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/prod-clp-files/public/documents/2654/original/Math_307.pdf

 

This shows than n/n = 1. Where does it show that you can multiply top and bottom by the same number?

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6 minutes ago, hands-on-mama said:

Just an FYI everyone. CLE absolutely teaches to multiply both the top and bottom and why. It was in Light unit 307. The 400 level is assuming you have already  even taught that or been through their program. See this sample from 307 to see how it was taught. 
 

https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/prod-clp-files/public/documents/2654/original/Math_307.pdf

 

Does CLE have a teacher's manual, or is this the entirety of the instruction? This doesn't teach how or why to multiply the numerator and denominator by the same multiplier for an equivalent fraction. It only shows that 3 is less than 4. 

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With all due respect, very smart kids do not appreciate the busy work of math exercises they can complete easily, especially if they hate the output preselected for them.  This is a topic for you to discuss with the psych.   

My suggestion is place student into new content and change the output choice...something  much more interesting than dashing off 'answers'. It can be as simple as introducing binary when you really want him to practice double digit multiplication.  He needs something more complex than exercise sets.

Edited by HeighHo

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3 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

With all due respect, very smart kids do not appreciate the busy work of math exercises they can complete easily, especially if they hate the output preselected for them.  

He's the one who chose CLE!!  He absolutely DETESTED every complex and interesting choice I offered.  He DOES NOT want to think deeply at all.

This is a topic for you to discuss with the psych.   

This has been discussed in depth with every mental health professional.  The best they can advise is to give Elliot daily choices of what math to do.  CLE is currently one of those choices, and often the one he opts for after a couple hours of tantrumming about not wanting to do any of them (or anything else).

My suggestion is place student into new content and change the output choice...something  much more interesting than dashing off 'answers'. It can be as simple as introducing binary when you really want him to practice double digit multiplication.  He needs something more complex than exercise sets.

Oh, how I wished he worked this way!!  This is largely how I taught my oldest math; we played with tessellating and fractals and probability and T-Rex counting (aka base 4).  Elliot reacts VERY negatively to anything this open ended.  I hate CLE, but he prefers it and is tantrumming over math significantly less than with other any other curricula or learning method...even ones done entirely orally or with manipulatives.

 

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With all due respect, you need a psych that understands smart 2e kids and educational instruction.  Complexity is not a synonym for open ended or play.  I too thought 'reacting less negatively' than before was success, the educational psych w/gifted background cured me of that and gave me better ideas on instruction and output.   I'd give you the number to the one here, but that person has retired. There are people that  can help you . I hope you find a connnection.  Maybe start with a university faculty member if your health provider network is coming up empty.

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34 minutes ago, hands-on-mama said:

Just an FYI everyone. CLE absolutely teaches to multiply both the top and bottom and why. It was in Light unit 307. The 400 level is assuming you have already  even taught that or been through their program. See this sample from 307 to see how it was taught. 
 

https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/prod-clp-files/public/documents/2654/original/Math_307.pdf

 

I'm sorry if this feels like picking on you, but are you saying that CLE omitted clear instruction or terminology because they only intend their program to be used by children who used it in the prior year, and they expect the student - without instruction or reminder or reference - to remember the concept from a year ago, when it was only "taught" to them in this simplistic way? And then the student will know, based on the fact from 3rd grade that 3/4 does not equal 4/4, that he must multiply both the top and bottom of the fraction to get an equivalent?

I'd never heard that you couldn't use CLE unless the child had used it from the beginning; I'd always heard that you just have to do a placement test and you're good to go.

This is dreadful.

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41 minutes ago, square_25 said:

This shows than n/n = 1. Where does it show that you can multiply top and bottom by the same number?

 

You’re right. I’m sorry. I could have sworn I saw it, but I had also just woken up after working 36 hours I. 3 days, so my bad. 😂

38 minutes ago, Lang Syne Boardie said:

Does CLE have a teacher's manual, or is this the entirety of the instruction? This doesn't teach how or why to multiply the numerator and denominator by the same multiplier for an equivalent fraction. It only shows that 3 is less than 4. 

 
CLE does have a TM,  but I’m not sure if that is in there or not. It’s been a while since we used it. Many math curricula assume that you have learned things in previous levels and leave out instruction used in lower levels. This isn’t just a CLE thing. 

Edited by hands-on-mama
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4 minutes ago, Lang Syne Boardie said:

I'm sorry if this feels like picking on you, but are you saying that CLE omitted clear instruction or terminology because they only intend their program to be used by children who used it in the prior year, and they expect the student - without instruction or reminder or reference - to remember the concept from a year ago, when it was only "taught" to them in this simplistic way? And then the student will know, based on the fact from 3rd grade that 3/4 does not equal 4/4, that he must multiply both the top and bottom of the fraction to get an equivalent?

I'd never heard that you couldn't use CLE unless the child had used it from the beginning; I'd always heard that you just have to do a placement test and you're good to go.

This is dreadful.


 No, I’m not saying that was the intent. I’m just saying that their program is very incremental and assumes you have already learned it. We don’t current,y use it. I’m only stating a fact of how it’s set up. We don’t use it for many reasons. 
 

For the OP, there’s one thing I feel should be said. You have an 8 year old in the 400’s. The workload in that is fairly dreadful and that level is known to be the beast in CLE. Just because your 8 year old is capable of this level of math does not mean it should be expected. There are more developmentally appropriate programs with proper output for that age. Just my 2 cents for the day. Is he your oldest?

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5 minutes ago, hands-on-mama said:

 

You’re right. I’m sorry. I could have sworn I saw it, but I had also just woken up after working 36 hours I. 3 days, so my bad. 😂

 
CLE does have a TM,  but I’m. It sure if that is in there or not. It’s been a while since we used it. 

 

Yikes! I'm impressed you can read anything at all after that... 

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1 minute ago, square_25 said:

 

Yikes! I'm impressed you can read anything at all after that... 


😂 Ha! Right? I work from home, but staring at the computer screen that long is horrid. Thanksgiving through Cyber Monday is awful. 😂

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42 minutes ago, hands-on-mama said:


 No, I’m not saying that was the intent. I’m just saying that their program is very incremental and assumes you have already learned it. We don’t current,y use it. I’m only stating a fact of how it’s set up. We don’t use it for many reasons. 
 

For the OP, there’s one thing I feel should be said. You have an 8 year old in the 400’s. The workload in that is fairly dreadful and that level is known to be the beast in CLE. Just because your 8 year old is capable of this level of math does not mean it should be expected. There are more developmentally appropriate programs with proper output for that age. Just my 2 cents for the day. Is he your oldest?

 

I can't speak for the OP's kid, but I know that my accelerated 7 year old gets much grumpier if I give her stuff she finds too easy. We're currently working on fraction multiplication and she's excited to start algebra soon (she read about it in the Murderous Maths books: thanks again for the recommendation, @wendyroo, she adores those books). She would throw fits about having 10 easy arithmetic problems but would be thrilled to convert 10 numbers in binary to decimal notation (in case you aren't super familiar with binary, doing so would involve something like 30 separate and harder additions.) 

I think "developmentally appropriate" gets thrown around as if it's one size fits all. Since this child finishes the work in 10-20 minutes once he pays attention, it's obviously not too hard for him. In fact, I would wager that he can do much harder work but doesn't want to, and this is already an attempt to make things easy for him... 

Edited by square_25
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9 minutes ago, square_25 said:

 

I can't speak for the OP's kid, but I know that my accelerated 7 year old gets much grumpier if I give her stuff she finds too easy. She's 7 and we're currently working on fraction multiplication and she's excited to start algebra soon (she read about it in the Murderous Maths books: thanks again for the recommendation, @wendyroo, she adores those books). She would throw fits about having 10 easy arithmetic problems but would be thrilled to convert 10 numbers in binary to decimal notation (in case you aren't super familiar with binary, doing so would involve something like 30 separate and harder additions.) 

I think "developmentally appropriate" gets thrown around as if it's one size fits all. Since this child finishes the work in 10-20 minutes once he pays attention, it's obviously not too hard for him. In fact, I would wager that he can do much harder work but doesn't want to, and this is already an attempt to make things easy for him... 


This is very possible, but obviously there is something going on with the violent outbursts. I would much rather work on fixing that at 8 than stress over CLE. Out of curiosity, what math are you using for your child?

Edited by hands-on-mama
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Just now, hands-on-mama said:


This is very possible, but obviously there is something going on with the violent outbursts. I would much rather work on fixing that at 8 than stress over CLE. 

 

Please re-read the OP's posts about her child. He has special needs that are far beyond and outside violent reactions to his math curriculum. His special needs are not what her vent was about - she was talking about an issue with the curriculum that would be a problem for anyone who noticed it, which was why the post belonged on the K-8 curriculum board. 

*I don't really know the OP beyond some recollection of her posts. I figured this out from her posts in THIS thread. I think she made it clear that she understands math pedagogy (and has prior experience as a home educator) and that she understands her child's diagnosis and needs. This thread was about a serious deficiency in a popular math program.

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2 minutes ago, hands-on-mama said:


This is very possible, but obviously there is something going on with the violent outbursts. I would much rather work on fixing that at 8 than stress over CLE. Out of curiosity, what math are you using for your child?

 

I'm not using any specific math: I write her lessons myself. I'm a mathematician by training, so it's easy for me :-). 

If you read over the posts, you'll see there are a lot of things going on with this child and they aren't related to the math curriculum. The math curriculum complaints should be relevant for everyone, because that's atrocious phrasing. If my child was using this, I'd go over this with them and make it clear that the phrasing isn't right. 

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You've got a super complicated kiddo OP, I won't pretend to know what will work but have you tried the Prodigy math game with him? Unless he reacts badly to anything on a screen it might be worth a shot. It's online, free for the basic game but if he responds well you can get a membership for about $14 per year through a group buy (there are Facebook groups that set these up). You can let the adaptive program choose his problems or you can sign problem sets.

 

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9 minutes ago, square_25 said:

 

I can't speak for the OP's kid, but I know that my accelerated 7 year old gets much grumpier if I give her stuff she finds too easy. She's 7 and we're currently working on fraction multiplication and she's excited to start algebra soon (she read about it in the Murderous Maths books: thanks again for the recommendation, @wendyroo, she adores those books). She would throw fits about having 10 easy arithmetic problems but would be thrilled to convert 10 numbers in binary to decimal notation (in case you aren't super familiar with binary, doing so would involve something like 30 separate and harder additions.) 

I think "developmentally appropriate" gets thrown around as if it's one size fits all. Since this child finishes the work in 10-20 minutes once he pays attention, it's obviously not too hard for him. In fact, I would wager that he can do much harder work but doesn't want to, and this is already an attempt to make things easy for him... 

Exactly.  He took the CLE placement test and easily placed into the 600 level.  I started him in 406 as a compromise that would not offer undue stress while also not being insultingly easy.

By age he is a second grader, emotionally he is 3 year old.  He reads at a high school level, but his handwriting is slightly worse than that of a drunk monkey writing on a tilt-a-whirl.  I know that an 8 year old in level 4 seems high, but honestly CLE level 200 would be much, much less appropriate for him.

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18 minutes ago, maize said:

You've got a super complicated kiddo OP, I won't pretend to know what will work but have you tried the Prodigy math game with him? Unless he reacts badly to anything on a screen it might be worth a shot. It's online, free for the basic game but if he responds well you can get a membership for about $14 per year through a group buy (there are Facebook groups that set these up). You can let the adaptive program choose his problems or you can sign problem sets.

He does have a Prodigy account, and he will occasionally play for a few minutes, but his ADHD is so severe that he really can't focus even on screens for any length of time.  Ironically, his mental illnesses actually make him less likely to become engrossed in screens.  Even if I offer him unlimited time on any screen he wants, he will still flit to one, last 2-3 minutes, flit to another, last 2-3 minutes, flit to another, last 2-3 minutes and eventually end up tantrumming because everyone else is having fun on screens and he feels left out and victimized...even though he has just as much access as they do, but he is not in a state of mind that he can settle and enjoy anything.

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I just took a look at the CLE placement test (I was curious how my DD would do: she wouldn't do very well, we don't go in anything like the same order), and saw this phrase: 

"Use the formula to find the circumference of the circle. Use 22/7 for pi." 

Ugh. You are not USING 22/7 for pi. You're ESTIMATING pi as 22/7. There's a difference! 

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3 minutes ago, wendyroo said:

He does have a Prodigy account, and he will occasionally play for a few minutes, but his ADHD is so severe that he really can't focus even on screens for any length of time.  Ironically, his mental illnesses actually make him less likely to become engrossed in screens.  Even if I offer him unlimited time on any screen he wants, he will still flit to one, last 2-3 minutes, flit to another, last 2-3 minutes, flit to another, last 2-3 minutes and eventually end up tantrumming because everyone else is having fun on screens and he feels left out and victimized...even though he has just as much access as they do, but he is not in a state of mind that he can settle and enjoy anything.

What does he actually enjoy? Legos, it sounds like, as long as you aren't telling him to do them (yeesh)... what else? 

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1 hour ago, square_25 said:

 

I'm not using any specific math: I write her lessons myself. I'm a mathematician by training, so it's easy for me :-). 

If you read over the posts, you'll see there are a lot of things going on with this child and they aren't related to the math curriculum. The math curriculum complaints should be relevant for everyone, because that's atrocious phrasing. If my child was using this, I'd go over this with them and make it clear that the phrasing isn't right. 


Yes, I realize that. I have a child with diagnoses as well who is also 2e. Math is not her gifted side though. 🤣 The multiple issues is why I clearly stated looking for something different. I do realize that she was commenting on the curriculum, but it also seemed like she was looking for suggestions. 🤷‍♀️

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11 minutes ago, square_25 said:

What does he actually enjoy? Legos, it sounds like, as long as you aren't telling him to do them (yeesh)... what else? 

He likes reading...a fairly balanced mix of easy pablum (Captain Underpants, etc), non-fiction picture books, math books, and kids' encyclopedias.  He won't read any assigned literature, but over the last couple months he has chosen to read several of the Black Stallion sequels (we listened to the first one as an audiobook in the car) which are longer and harder than anything I would assign anyway.

He likes drawing, but only as long as it is unchallenging for him, it turns out exactly how he envisioned, and no one tries to teach him anything or tell him what to do.

He likes playdoh a lot, and I let him play with it often, but I have to accept that he will make a HUGE mess and then be completely unwilling/unable to even help with cleanup.  Also, he cannot successfully play with playdoh with his siblings, so the 4 year old is frequently screaming because it is Elliot's turn to play with it, and then when it is the siblings' turn, Elliot screams and tantrums...even though I just let him play for as long as he wanted and he said he was done. 

In theory he likes board games, but the first time something doesn't go his way he tends to abandon the game or dump the board.  So he normally only lasts 5ish minutes.

Actually, board games fall into a large category of activities that he wants to like, but doesn't really.  He wants to like puzzles, TV shows, crafts, video games, cooking, playing outside, going to the park (or zoo/library/museum), etc. but none of them are ever easy enough or fulfilling enough.

Mostly, he wakes up around 5:30, reads until 6:30, eats breakfast, throws a tantrum about something (getting dressed, brushing teeth, the fact that his brother wore a red shirt, having to wipe up the spill from where he hurled his cup across the room, etc.).  Eventually he listens to some read alouds and then throws a tantrum about doing math.  We have a snack around 10:30 and then go to an extracurricular where Elliot throws a tantrum in the car because his choices are to participate in the extracurricular or work on his math which he hasn't even started yet.  Then we come home for lunch and afterwards the younger two go to their rooms for rest time, the eldest goes and plays in the lego room, and Elliot continues his tantrum.  Normally he gives in around 3pm and is done with his math around 3:15.  Then he has about two hours of free time before dinner...honestly he spends most of that time bullying and tormenting his siblings, so he is primarily restricted to either playing alone in the lego room or drawing/reading/playing playdoh near me while I do chores and make dinner.

The goals his mental health team have set for each day are:
- He stays safe and does not seriously injure anyone (including himself)
- He puts on clean underwear and brushes his teeth
- He willingly "attends" school and reads/listens to books for 20 minutes and spends 20 minutes on math
- He does one chore to clean up a mess he made or contribute to his own upkeep

It seems like a pretty low bar, but we are failing to clear it at least 50% of the time.

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1 hour ago, Lang Syne Boardie said:

 

Please re-read the OP's posts about her child. He has special needs that are far beyond and outside violent reactions to his math curriculum. His special needs are not what her vent was about - she was talking about an issue with the curriculum that would be a problem for anyone who noticed it, which was why the post belonged on the K-8 curriculum board. 

*I don't really know the OP beyond some recollection of her posts. I figured this out from her posts in THIS thread. I think she made it clear that she understands math pedagogy (and has prior experience as a home educator) and that she understands her child's diagnosis and needs. This thread was about a serious deficiency in a popular math program.

 

Yes, I did read that It does not change my response. Outbursts in 2E kids are a real issue, and sometimes taking certain things out of the picture can help. I would touch CLE math with a 10-foot pole for a 2E kid ever again after doing it with my own child. You don’t have to agree with me at all, but this is my opinion. Obviously, I don’t know the OP’s child personally, but the picture that is painted by her post gives me the impression that there are better programs out there. Her hating it tells me that too. 

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5 minutes ago, hands-on-mama said:

 

Yes, I did read that It does not change my response. Outbursts in 2E kids are a real issue, and sometimes taking certain things out of the picture can help. I would touch CLE math with a 10-foot pole for a 2E kid ever again after doing it with my own child. You don’t have to agree with me at all, but this is my opinion. Obviously, I don’t know the OP’s child personally, but the picture that is painted by her post gives me the impression that there are better programs out there. Her hating it tells me that too. 

 

I have 2E children, too, and I wouldn't use CLE for any child, anywhere, yet I don't actually have an opinion on what Wendy should do with her child. I think she's got a better handle on her own family than anyone else could. So I'm not disagreeing with you about the fit of CLE. 

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1 minute ago, Lang Syne Boardie said:

 

I have 2E children, too, and I wouldn't use CLE for any child, anywhere, yet I don't actually have an opinion on what Wendy should do with her child. I think she's got a better handle on her own family than anyone else could. So I'm not disagreeing with you about the fit of CLE. 

Yes, that’s also why I never suggested using anything at all-only that I thought there might be something better suited for his age. It’s definitely a hard road. I definitely know she has a better handle on her child I’ve seen so many homeschoolers struggle through CLE math (stupid facebook groups) because they thought it was the end all, be all of math curriculum. It’s a gut reaction when reading a post like this to suggest that maybe it isn’t the best fit in this type of instance. We can both have our own opinion though. That’s absolutely fine. 

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I wouldn't use CLE math, either, but it sounds like this was an attempt to do what the child wanted to do. I don't think @wendyroo wants to use it herself, she's just run out of options :-/. 

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7 hours ago, HeighHo said:

With all due respect, you need a psych that understands smart 2e kids and educational instruction.  Complexity is not a synonym for open ended or play.  I too thought 'reacting less negatively' than before was success, the educational psych w/gifted background cured me of that and gave me better ideas on instruction and output.   I'd give you the number to the one here, but that person has retired. There are people that  can help you . I hope you find a connnection.  Maybe start with a university faculty member if your health provider network is coming up empty.

 

6 hours ago, hands-on-mama said:


This is very possible, but obviously there is something going on with the violent outbursts. I would much rather work on fixing that at 8 than stress over CLE. Out of curiosity, what math are you using for your child?

Keep in mind everyone that this child is oppositional over ANY task he is told to do, according to the OP. The the issue isn't the task itself, but being told to do someitng. With kids like this if you told them to breathe they would hold their breath until they passed out just to spite you. The issue is, if he is like my son, not the math, or the curriculum, but that it was someone else's idea. If it wasn't math, it would be something else. 

(the kid also like CLE best, because it was predictable, and he could do it and be done. the last thing he wanted was for me to try to make school "interesting". He once flat out told me he did NOT want his fun and his school mixed together.)

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Question - if you dropped math, would it lower his stress or would he just tantrum about something different instead? If the former, I'd drop it since he's ahead anyway, so no harm in dropping it and letting him have more reading time instead. If you phrased it as "you can do math, or read whatever non fiction you want" would he happily read or just find a reason to have an argument anyway?

If he'd happily read, obviously I'd say do that. Save the battles for underwear and tooth brushing. 

If he would just fight then about reading, and I have that kid that would, then yeah, my sympathies. 

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