Alcohol and minors at family events

[regentrude]

44 minutes ago, Chris in VA said:

I don't really understand giving kids alcohol with the idea that exposure teaches them to "handle" it and not to drink to the point of harm. Why can't they learn that when they are older?

1. Because if they have their first experience with alcohol at a frat party in college, that may not be a safe environment for a young person who has no idea how alcohol affects them. I'd much rather they make that experience in the safe environment of their own home, so that, when they are on their own at 18, they know how their bodies react. 

My body does not produce alcohol dehydrogenase like normal people, and as a consequence, I may feel impaired after a quarter drink. I am grateful that I had the opportunity to learn this under the roof of adults who could keep me safe - as opposed to having one first drink and passing out in a dangerous situation. 

2. Forbidden things are attractive. Making alcohol this big deal makes procuring alcohol almost a sport. 

Edited November 30, 2019 by regentrude

[GoodGrief]

Interesting topic. My daughter told me just this week that a friend's mother had offered her alcohol at a party a couple years ago, when she was 14. The mother was from a country where there are not age restrictions on alcohol use, but was very aware of my stance on the issue, as a lifelong teetotaler (not for religious reasons) from a family of addicts. I will not say anything, as time has passed and the family is moved. In this case, knowing that mother, I have no doubt it was her way of ingratiating herself to the teens. She liked to be the cool mom that knew their secrets.

Also this week: an old friend and former teacher messaged me. He has spent the last 8 months in a sober living community, after a near-successful suicide attempt that put him in the ICU for 3 days and residential rehab for 8 weeks. He saw no worth in a life lived as an alcoholic.

Just about every day: I drive to Walmart and see groups of people drinking on the sidewalks in the middle of the day. Shock is not the right word, but it does surprise me that someone can make it to their 50s without seeing an intoxicated person.

I don't have to think very hard at all to recall lives impacted/ruined by alcohol, either directly or indirectly in acts of violence/thoughtlessness triggered by drinking.

I know plenty of people who absolutely cannot enjoy themselves without alcohol on board.

I don't think alcohol should be illegal, but I do hate the culture.

[Shoeless]

Do people think it's a good idea to let their kids try ecstasy or cocaine at home for their first time, rather than at a frat party? If the answer is "No, because that is illegal", then what about cigarettes? Those are legal.  What about pot? That's being decriminalized in many places.  Would people be ok with giving their kids their first joint at home, to avoid any kind of negative outcome at a frat party?  

[Farrar]

Not an issue in our family.

I totally believe and understand the research about why delaying that first drink is important. Alcoholism does run in dh's family big time. We talk to the kids about it often.

I think it's absurd that we allow 18 yos to die for their country but not to drink. I am strongly against raising the age for various rights received at age 18, especially the right to vote. I think the drinking age should be 18. Yeah, I'm sure some people should wait. But then do the education on that.

Offering a drink to a 19 yo seems to me that it should be on 19 yo - who is an adult! - to refuse the drink. Mom and dad are welcome to say, hey, we'd really rather you not. Family members where the culture isn't already clear and shared across the extended family are rude to put a young adult and their parents in that position. But also, it doesn't have to be a big deal in my eyes. Now, if it were a minor (which, this whole thread title is a misnomer, because while a 19 yo is underage specifically for alcohol, they are not a minor by any definition in the US) then I do think the parents should be the one to say.

[Farrar]

5 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

Do people think it's a good idea to let their kids try ecstasy or cocaine at home for their first time, rather than at a frat party? If the answer is "No, because that is illegal", then what about cigarettes? Those are legal.  What about pot? That's being decriminalized in many places.  Would people be ok with giving their kids their first joint at home, to avoid any kind of negative outcome at a frat party?  

People I know who regularly use pot do have this attitude to some extent.

I don't necessarily think that it's a healthy approach for either alcohol or pot... but I also think grouping cocaine and ecstasy into the same level is not especially helpful as a metaphor. Different drugs are different.

[Shoeless]

I wasn't using it as a metaphor.  I'm trying to understand where the line is for people. 

[EmseB]

32 minutes ago, Chris in VA said:

I don't really understand giving kids alcohol with the idea that exposure teaches them to "handle" it and not to drink to the point of harm. Why can't they learn that when they are older? It is statistically no more likely that starting to drink at an older age will lead to binging. In fact the opposite is true. The sooner one is introduced to alcohol, the more potential for brain harm. Giving kids drinks at home is not an innoculation against harmful drinking behaviors. I truly wish that myth would stop being perpetuated. 

I think most don't drink for the taste, like they might for, say,  a soda; they are drinking to experiment with the effect, the feeling. I think being more mature is helpful in setting personal boundaries. Alcohol lowers inhibitions, so those boundaries have to be ery strongly internalized in order to remain intact when drinking. If a parent is saying they will help enforce those boundaries by being present to make sure "nothing happens" then I have to question why they are allowing alcohol in the first place, as I think a person should be mature enough at the start. 

I don't think it necessarily works that way. I don't think giving it to kids at home is an innoculation, especially if it's being pushed like in the op. I do think that there can be an unhealthy way of prohibiting it as a forbidden, evil fruit. But I don't think maturity works that way either. I think experience plays a role in a lot of cases and sometimes it's impossible to be mature enough in a certain area "at the start" before they know how they react in certain circumstances.

I don't think kids who are allowed alcohol at home are being allowed it so that "nothing happens". I think it can be part of a healthy celebratory culture in a family. I have seen it. I don't think it's bad (morally or health-wise) to have a drink of alcohol and feel good any more than it's bad to have a cup of coffee and feel energized. I wouldn't want a young kid having an excess of either of those things, but I don't think it's irresponsible for them to have a small amount on special occasions.

I also think, like so many parenting issues there are ways of doing things that are obviously wrong. But what is ther correct way to keep kids from using poor judgement is way less obvious. 

[EmseB]

10 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

Do people think it's a good idea to let their kids try ecstasy or cocaine at home for their first time, rather than at a frat party? If the answer is "No, because that is illegal", then what about cigarettes? Those are legal.  What about pot? That's being decriminalized in many places.  Would people be ok with giving their kids their first joint at home, to avoid any kind of negative outcome at a frat party?  

I can't follow this logic. The reason I wouldn't want my kids (or myself) using cocaine or ecstasy have very little to do with the legality of the thing. A glass of wine is a totally different thing.

[MercyA]

@StellaM, I'm glad you're posting. I *want* to hear different perspectives on this board. I wasn't aware of the research re: delaying first use of alcohol. I'll google it!

[lewelma]

My ds will be able to buy alcohol at age 18, so we are training him now to make sure that he knows how to drink appropriately, how to moderate, how to say no, how to tell when you have had enough, how to pick which drink to have, etc. We went through the same process with my older, and he has chosen to be a teetotaler because he doesn't like the taste or the feel.  My younger (age 16) is offered as much as he wants at family/close friend events (maybe 6-8 per year). He has done an outstanding job saying yes and then saying no. He has talked to us about the effects and knowing when to stop. He will be in university in 2 years with the ability to buy alcohol. I consider it my duty to train him and let him explore in a natural and supportive environment.  I learned from the mistakes of my parents who sent me to a party school with no experience in alcohol.  I had many close calls due to my own ignorance of alcohol and desire to prove myself. All of it was illegal, but still rampant on campus. 

[Shoeless]

Fine, then what about cigarettes?  Those are legal.  What about pot? Pot is decriminalized in many places. 

I'm trying hard to understand why letting teens have alcohol at home so they learn how to handle drinking is a version of responsible parenting, but other drugs are not ok. I don't follow the logic that one glass of wine at a special event is totally fine and harmless.  But other drugs would not be ok?  Why?  Not trying to be snarky.  I just don't get it.  

[lewelma]

1 minute ago, Arctic Mama said:

And yet I went to two schools with heavy drinking culture and somehow never touched a drop or was even tempted, even as minor on one of those campuses. I think a lot of this is individual temperament and beliefs more than some parental exposure, when it comes to binge drinking.  I can sit through a party of any size and never have a drop and not miss it.  It’s always been that way.

Completely agree. 

But I would rather help him moderate his consumption if he chooses to drink. Here in NZ he will go away from home to university in the same year that he can legally buy it. I'm not taking chances on that. I will train him, just like I trained my now teetotalling older. And my older ds says that none of the students at MIT know that alcohol is to enjoy slowly over conversation. The ones that drink (which is definitely the majority) have a goal of getting wasted every single time they drink. I'm glad that my ds knows who he is and what he likes. 

[Farrar]

2 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

Fine, then what about cigarettes?  Those are legal.  What about pot? Pot is decriminalized in many places. 

I'm trying hard to understand why letting teens have alcohol at home so they learn how to handle drinking is a version of responsible parenting, but other drugs are not ok. I don't follow the logic that one glass of wine at a special event is totally fine and harmless.  But other drugs would not be ok?  Why?  Not trying to be snarky.  I just don't get it.  

To me, I would not ever, under any circumstances, think that some of the things you mentioned should be done by anyone. For political and various reasons, I am for drug legalization and decriminalization across the board. However, I don't think anyone should do recreational cocaine. Thus, it would not be okay for my kids to try cocaine in my house to get used to it. There's no getting used to it. No one should do it in the first place. And I feel the same about tobacco. It's not as harmful, but no one should do it.

Alcohol and pot, on the other hand... meh. I'm okay with people using those drugs. And caffeine, for example. So, to me, that's the difference. There's no point in preparing for using something if the goal is to never use it. My goal isn't for my kids to never use alcohol or pot. I assume it's pretty likely they will at least try each at some point and may become sometimes users of either or both in various ways and amounts. Dh is an alcoholic so he does not use anything at all. I currently drink sometimes though. I don't have any issue with that.

In a general sense, I'm very much FOR letting kids do things that they will one day be able to do out in the wild world at home while they're living with me and things are a bit more guided and there's more of a safety net. Like others who have posted here, I also knew kids who got to college never having touched alcohol, who went from zero to sixty really fast and nearly (or actually) failed out their first year of college because they were so oversupervised at home and suddenly there were no rules. So my gut says this is the right way. Now, the research, especially for kids at risk, says nope. Actually, the longer they wait, the better. And we have better information now than ever about how growing brains are more affected by drugs than we ever understood in the past. So knowing all that... we don't actually engage in this practice with pot or alcohol in our household. Other grown up life experience things, maybe. But not the drugs.

[Shoeless]

Got it.  I guess people will just have to think I'm uptight then, because I my end goal is "no drug use", even if the drugs are legal and considered no big deal by the general population.  I've seen more problems than benefits come from use of cigarettes, alcohol, and pot.  

[MaBelle]

My dd was making mimosas for us Thanksgiving morning and asked her 19 yr old cousin if  she wanted one in front of her mom.  Cousin said yes and her mom said nothing, so..?

[EmseB]

16 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

Fine, then what about cigarettes?  Those are legal.  What about pot? Pot is decriminalized in many places. 

I'm trying hard to understand why letting teens have alcohol at home so they learn how to handle drinking is a version of responsible parenting, but other drugs are not ok. I don't follow the logic that one glass of wine at a special event is totally fine and harmless.  But other drugs would not be ok?  Why?  Not trying to be snarky.  I just don't get it.  

I think you'd find individual answers depending on the person, but a lot of people that smoke cigarettes wish they could quit and can't, so they wouldn't want their kid addicted and thus wouldn't offer. I think, in general,  people who have a glass of wine once a week or with a special dinner would not consider that to be the same type of thing. Pot, IDK that people that smoke aren't offering it to their adult kids. It's never been something I've been interested in trying so we just... don't. But like Farrar said, they are all different things with different effects and consequences. So different parents allow different things and have different boundaries.

[Shoeless]

Just now, StellaM said:

 

Yes, unfortunately. 

And really, it's OK for them to think that, so long as they don't breeze in, as at least 3 people have mentioned here, to try to be the 'cool' relative suggesting a drink to your kids. 

 

Yeah, I guess people are going to think what they want.  It's just exhausting to have to defend the position that no, I don't drink or smoke weed and there is nothing wrong with that.  Since pot has been decriminalized and CBD oil is now everyone's cure-all, I'm suddenly getting a lot of pressure from adults on this.  It's so weird. 

[EmseB]

13 minutes ago, StellaM said:

I wish people would stop comparing caffeine with alcohol. Caffeine does not have a major public health cost associated with its use.

I don't think it's a perfect comparison, but nothing would be. The way I compared it in my post was limited to that specific example, not an exhaustive analogy.

FWIW, I don't think people who don't drink or don't agree with me are wrong or uptight. We have one side of the family that teetotals and one that doesn't. My husband and I don't. We all get along great and no one is interested in forcing people to imbibe or trying to convince the other side not to have a beer or whatever. Maybe I shouldn't  speak up at all because this is such a non-issue in my immediate circle.

[rebcoola]

This relative crossed the line.  My parents gave me sips of the good stuff as a kid and eventually served me at holidays.  It did definitely keep from binge drinking. because cheap beer, wine, etc is nasty.  I enjoy good drinks and will not drink any old thing to swill typically Rainier beer🤮.  I have taken the same path for my kids.  

[school17777]

I don’t think this was an issue at our gathering (although now that I think about it, someone there was a mandated reporter but he came afterwards).  A teacher friend of mine turns down invitations where there might be underage drinking because she said she would have to report it.  She asks if there might be underage drinking and will decline the invitation if it’s a possibility.  I wonder how that works at family functions?

 

[Melissa in Australia]

31 minutes ago, StellaM said:

Ironically, I have been out today and bought pink gin to give to someone as a gift (someone who is very much over the age of 21 or even 41! and who enjoys alcohol occasionally). So I'm not really putting my heart into a ban or anything.

And my ds16 works as a production line worker at a micro brewery.  Interestingly most of the people there don't drink. I guess working with the smell of beer all day would turn you off drinking

[Melissa in Australia]

Well I wrote stench at first but thought I would reword just in case some people like the smell. 

[kiwik]

I think your mil was rude to insist as is everyone who insists.  No means no.  But on the other hand I can't imagine treating a 19 year old as a little kid by asking a parent's permission.  I expect a normal 19 year old to decide if they want to drink alcohol, eat cake or whatever.  Nor can I imagine offering to every adult except the 19 year old. I am not sure where the cut off age would be though.  But over 18 they are an adult.

Edited November 30, 2019 by kiwik

[Guest]

11 hours ago, alisoncooks said:

This thread is interesting to me. I come from a long line of teetotalers, LOL, so alcohol at family events is a totally unfamiliar thing. Even my extended family members who do drink, do not bring any to family gatherings. 

I do too. On my mother’s side, I never, ever witnessed a grandparent, aunt, uncle, or older cousin drinking any kind of alcohol for any event. My father’s side seemed to have some “Catholic drinkers,” but we spent almost zero time with those relatives growing up. My father’s parents were heavy tobacco users and my mom, I believe, was early, culturally, for not abiding second-hand smoke for herself or her children. 

Dh’s family had more social drinkers, but his mom and dad never drank or had alcohol for family occasions. (They did drink some in their own social circles; my FIL usually had a gin and tonic, my MIL once in a while had wine.)

Growing up with teetotalers was really a great benefit, I have come to think. I never went to a family wedding ruined by Uncle Bob’s drunkenness, nor propped up Aunt Bev while calling a taxi. All of my Christmas family memories are unadulterated by stories of alcohol abusers. It’s nice. 

[regentrude]

7 hours ago, StellaM said:

The only people I don't get drinking pressure from are people who don't drink for religious reasons, or alcoholics who are currently sober. Like Melissa said, that's our culture - it's got a problem.

I am sorry you are encountering that. That sucks. And is so completely contrary to my own experience. I have never been pressured to drink or had a "no thanks" followed up with insistence. I can go to our local pub for happy hour events and order hot tea, and neither the pub staff nor the people I meet bat an eyelash. 

[MEmama]

5 minutes ago, regentrude said:

I am sorry you are encountering that. That sucks. And is so completely contrary to my own experience. I have never been pressured to drink or had a "no thanks" followed up with insistence. I can go to our local pub for happy hour events and order hot tea, and neither the pub staff nor the people I meet bat an eyelash. 

Yeah, honestly, I haven’t encountered pressure either (well, only from my parents, but the judgement from them runs deep and wide). Even as a teen,  when friends would drink anyone who said no was immediately respected. I can’t recall a single instance where declining a drink was met with any reaction at all.

I’ve never really felt pressure the other way, either, that as an adult I should choose to not drink because of someone else’s reasons. 

To each their own. 🤷‍♀️

[ktgrok]

15 hours ago, MEmama said:

Yeah, the worst examples of public drunkenness that I’ve seen were in Germany, Italy and of course on US college campuses. And *everywhere* we’ve been and lived in Canada. 

I can't imagine living to 50 and not seeing someone intoxicated and stupid. Lucky person who has! 😉 (although seeing it as a kid sure taught me how terribly lame over drinking makes a person behave, so good life lessons I guess). 

We ran into some friends at a theme park when DS20 was in maybe 6th grade or so. They were drinking, and a few were VERY drunk. i pulled my son aside and had a conversation about it. I asked him, "did the ones that were drunk seem to be acting more grown up, or cool?" and got an emphatic "NO!". We talked bout how they seemed childish and how alcohol  doesn't make you more grown up, it makes you silly and childish. 

15 hours ago, StellaM said:

 

I actually hate being around drinkers...I'm extreme like that.

Even the social drinkers. Being sober around social drinkers is one of the most tedious experiences known to mankind.

 

I think we need to define social drinkers. I find being sober around people drinking to intoxication awful. But hanging with my mom as she sips a single glass of wine? No different than when she doesn't. 

14 hours ago, StellaM said:

 

This is my mom's motivation too. 

Not OK. Your MIL should have asked you, privately, if you were OK with her offering alcohol to your teen.  And if you said no, she should have respected that, and only offered non-alcoholic beverages to dd. Her desire to be cool does not over-ride your parental comfort. 

This. My mom has asked me privately, out of earshot of my oldest, if he could have a small glass of wine/champagne at celebratory dinners (really, just thanksgiving and Christmas) with the adults. She started when he was probably 18? Maybe 16? My call, and IF I said yes she would ask him. He'd be served a smaller amount than a full glass, just enough for the toast and to enjoy the taste. 

12 hours ago, StellaM said:

 

Where we have 'drinking OK from 18' laws, and a huge % of the country with European cultural background - Italian, Greek - and the integration of a 'drinking is part of family life' culture - and yet we still have major problems with alcohol. Our laws/cultures are not the fix others think they are.

This. I used to think that the laws in other parts of the world helped prevent drinking issues but heard recently on NPR that the levels of alcoholism and binge drinking are not effected by that. 

10 hours ago, Chris in VA said:

I don't really understand giving kids alcohol with the idea that exposure teaches them to "handle" it and not to drink to the point of harm. Why can't they learn that when they are older?

 

That isn't our goal. We share with older teens on celebratory occasions just to let them enjoy the taste, they are not giving more than a single small glass. 

9 hours ago, MissLemon said:

Do people think it's a good idea to let their kids try ecstasy or cocaine at home for their first time, rather than at a frat party? If the answer is "No, because that is illegal", then what about cigarettes? Those are legal.  What about pot? That's being decriminalized in many places.  Would people be ok with giving their kids their first joint at home, to avoid any kind of negative outcome at a frat party?  

No, because we don't want them EVER having cocaine or ecstasy. Pot isn't something we have, so we can't share it. 

But again, we are not going out and getting booze to teach our son some lesson with it. We are simply sharing something with him that we enjoy. 

But no one should push anyone to drink alcohol, or push them to have food they don't want, or anything else. That's a horrible breech of good manners. Offering is different than pushing. At family gathering the adults are offered wine/beer/etc  but I've never had my mom or family insist when I say no, which I often do. Wine gives me heartburn, and that and scotch are the drinks usually available at my mom's. So I say no and no one bats and eye or asks me why. 

Edited November 30, 2019 by Ktgrok

[DawnM]

8 hours ago, EmseB said:

I think you'd find individual answers depending on the person, but a lot of people that smoke cigarettes wish they could quit and can't, so they wouldn't want their kid addicted and thus wouldn't offer. I think, in general,  people who have a glass of wine once a week or with a special dinner would not consider that to be the same type of thing. Pot, IDK that people that smoke aren't offering it to their adult kids. It's never been something I've been interested in trying so we just... don't. But like Farrar said, they are all different things with different effects and consequences. So different parents allow different things and have different boundaries.

 

And that is the key.  A high person (on pot) acts totally different than a person who has had a glass of wine.  And the brain reacts differently too.  

My son's friend brought beer, pot, and vape supplies to my house (see thread from a. couple of weeks ago) and the thing that bothered me the most was the pot.  I told my son I don't even care if he has a beer every now and then and he is 15.  But I will not tolerate pot.  Ever.  It will never come in my house.  His friend, the one who brought it, has had his grades go from straight As and being in AIG classes, down to Ds and Fs.....and the kid doesn't care anymore.  MOST of the kids I have known who are doing pot are trying to escape something, deal with trauma in their lives, or deal with depression.  I personally have never met a kid whose life is going well, is pursuing advancing himself, and smoking pot regularly.

[Carrie12345]

10 hours ago, Chris in VA said:

I don't really understand giving kids alcohol with the idea that exposure teaches them to "handle" it and not to drink to the point of harm. Why can't they learn that when they are older? It is statistically no more likely that starting to drink at an older age will lead to binging. In fact the opposite is true. The sooner one is introduced to alcohol, the more potential for brain harm. Giving kids drinks at home is not an innoculation against harmful drinking behaviors. I truly wish that myth would stop being perpetuated. 

I think most don't drink for the taste, like they might for, say,  a soda; they are drinking to experiment with the effect, the feeling. I think being more mature is helpful in setting personal boundaries. Alcohol lowers inhibitions, so those boundaries have to be ery strongly internalized in order to remain intact when drinking. If a parent is saying they will help enforce those boundaries by being present to make sure "nothing happens" then I have to question why they are allowing alcohol in the first place, as I think a person should be mature enough at the start. 

I want my people to feel good in other ways. 

We do have a history of alcoholism--we are loaded for bear in that dept. 

I also think there is a ton of denial of problem drinking in families. 

 

Speaking only for myself, I don’t want my kids’ first experience to be in an environment where intoxication is the goal or where “accidental” over drinking could be disastrous.  I do talk to my kids about how my own tolerance isn’t static.  One day I may have three glasses of wine and feel fine. Another day I may get to half a glass and realize I need to dump the rest because it’s getting to me. And they know that’s why I never have any alcohol in many situations. But hearing that and understanding that are two different things.

For me, it isn’t about “nothing happening”, but about understanding the effects on their own bodies, because all those Driver’s Ed calculations are utter crap in practice. Not that I worry much about drinking and driving, because they’ve dealt with enough drunk drivers at accident scenes to know that isn’t an option. But they don’t know how to tell if having a second or third beer or whatever is going to impair them before they have it.

We don’t encourage drinking (again, I have an of-age kid who doesn’t drink), but we do realize that some of our kids will choose to. And they might make bad choices no matter what we do.  But I don’t want them walking into a party thinking that two shots and a beer are just a warm up and learning differently halfway into their next round.  If they already know that a beer and a half gets to them, then any bad choices are informed and on purpose.

9 hours ago, MissLemon said:

Do people think it's a good idea to let their kids try ecstasy or cocaine at home for their first time, rather than at a frat party? If the answer is "No, because that is illegal", then what about cigarettes? Those are legal.  What about pot? That's being decriminalized in many places.  Would people be ok with giving their kids their first joint at home, to avoid any kind of negative outcome at a frat party?  

It’s not about legality for me. Ecstasy and cocaine are not options because there is no “safe” amount. You’re going to get wrecked, period.  Cigarettes, while I’d hate for my kids to smoke, won’t impair their mental or physical capacities.  Pot, I actually do put on the same wavelength as alcohol, but I wouldn’t buy it just to offer my kids. I wouldn’t even know where to buy it!  If we were already pot smoking adults, I don’t know.  Instead, I settle for reminding them about all the junk that street pot can be laced with, which could get them wrecked.  (Which did happen to me, and I don’t keep it a secret.)

[Carrie12345]

8 hours ago, MissLemon said:

 

Yeah, I guess people are going to think what they want.  It's just exhausting to have to defend the position that no, I don't drink or smoke weed and there is nothing wrong with that.  Since pot has been decriminalized and CBD oil is now everyone's cure-all, I'm suddenly getting a lot of pressure from adults on this.  It's so weird. 

You shouldn’t ever have to defend that position. Though I could see how a conversation might go if you were expecting someone on the other side to defend theirs. But in general conversation? You don’t owe anyone explanation.

[J-rap]

8 hours ago, kiwik said:

I think your mil was rude to insist as is everyone who insists.  No means no.  But on the other hand I can't imagine treating a 19 year old as a little kid by asking a parent's permission.  I expect a normal 19 year old to decide if they want to drink alcohol, eat cake or whatever.  Nor can I imagine offering to every adult except the 19 year old. I am not sure where the cut off age would be though.  But over 18 they are an adult.

I don't think talking with the parent in private means you're treating the 19-year-old as a little kid.  It's simply respecting a family's culture.  

[73349]

54 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

  Cigarettes, while I’d hate for my kids to smoke, won’t impair their mental or physical capacities. 

Breathing is an important physical capacity IMO. 😉 DS is sensitive to smell and hates even third-hand tobacco smoke, so I'm hoping that the odor of pot will be enough to deter him from that as well.

I suspect that the cultural expectation that young people will try things is largely self-fulfilling: they take it as normal, and mostly do go on to try them, precisely because even their parents expect it.

[Guest]

11 hours ago, Chris in VA said:

I don't really understand giving kids alcohol with the idea that exposure teaches them to "handle" it and not to drink to the point of harm. Why can't they learn that when they are older? It is statistically no more likely that starting to drink at an older age will lead to binging. In fact the opposite is true. The sooner one is introduced to alcohol, the more potential for brain harm. Giving kids drinks at home is not an innoculation against harmful drinking behaviors. I truly wish that myth would stop being perpetuated. 

I think most don't drink for the taste, like they might for, say,  a soda; they are drinking to experiment with the effect, the feeling. I think being more mature is helpful in setting personal boundaries. Alcohol lowers inhibitions, so those boundaries have to be ery strongly internalized in order to remain intact when drinking. If a parent is saying they will help enforce those boundaries by being present to make sure "nothing happens" then I have to question why they are allowing alcohol in the first place, as I think a person should be mature enough at the start. 

I want my people to feel good in other ways. 

We do have a history of alcoholism--we are loaded for bear in that dept. 

I also think there is a ton of denial of problem drinking in families. 

 

There was a very interesting article in The Atlantic some years back; I really wish I had copied and saved it. It was about the results of a study on the difference (in the US)* between college alcohol use or abuse between kids who came from families where parents did not allow alcohol to minors vs. parents who furnished alcohol to minors in high school so they would “learn their limits.” The pro-alcohol parents were dubbed the “Get Real” parents, because the rationale is, let’s get real; kids will drink, especially in college, so let’s remove the forbidden fruit aspect by allowing it underage. (Before anyone gets in my butt about this, this was NOT about wine-with-dinner-type alcohol permission; this was parents providing alcohol parties to underage kids to supposedly illustrate their limits to themselves with parents present.) 

The interesting conclusion in the article - and mind you, The Atlantic tends to be progressive and liberal in tone - was that the kids with the “Get Real” parents were not less likely to binge-drink and get totally stoopid in college; in fact, they were significantly more likely to abuse alcohol than the Goodie Two-Shoes parents’ kids were. The Goodie Two-Shoes kids were more likely to not consume alcohol at all, or consume responsibly, or make a decision to abstain on any particular occasion for reasons specific to that event, such as needing to drive or being concerned about unwanted sexual activity. 

It was a very enlightening article, which I have referred to many times, including to the SIL who was offering that my kids could drink under her watch. 

*”In the US” is an important distinction, as it specifically referred to US cultural attitudes towards drinking and did not extrapolate to European countries that do not have the same drinking culture. 

[catz]

Providing alcohol to teens in high school for parties just sounds like a path to a possible accident and law suit.  That is a terrible idea and I don't know anyone who has done that since I was in high school.  I never drank in high school.  I went to public colleges and really didn't drink until I was 21 either, though my parents did give us a little wine, etc at holidays once we were 18.  My brother who was raised in the same house made much worse decisions in college, including regular pot use.  I absolutely think his binge drinking and pot use affected his "brain finishing".  

I feel like a lot of things are being conflated here.  When someone crosses your personal parental boundaries, that is an issue that should be dealt with.  I have plenty of friends that do or don't drink. Everyone I know is a 1-2 drinks at an event or maybe a few drinks with dinner at home a week.  And I'm talking about beer/wine generally.  If people decline, I assume they have good reason and move on.  If people are pressuring you, they aren't being rational and they aren't kind.  I even feel like on my son's college campus there is drinking, but there is not really peer pressure about it like when I was in college.  You do you.  

I grew up in a family involved in the wine and beer business.  People absolutely DO drink for the taste.  My husband and I will go to a taproom as a date and share a flight of 4-5 beers in shot glasses and sip them over 90 minutes.   Good beer and wine food pairings are a big business.  I really don't understand treating the glass of wine with dinner person with the binge drink at parties to being out of control person.  If you are uncomfortable with any drinkers, that is fine.  You do you, no one should force you to be around alcohol.  But there are many intelligent productive members of society that imbibe occasionally.  I consider that similar to dining or a cultural use.  Like when I went on a trip to France in high school, we were all allowed wine with dinner.  I absolutely agree binge drinking is a horrible idea.  

I think where I struggle as a parent of a newly 19 year old college freshman who really hasn't been home since August is that I don't want to lay out super strict rules at home that are easily broken when he is not home.  I never offered alcohol to my sub 18 year olds.  But now that he is legal in all other ways, I'm fine with him having some with our holiday meals, etc when the rest of us are.  If other people want to have different rules for their college 19 year olds, that's fine.  

I am not excited about the legalization of recreational marijuana.  Especially as it pertains to young people/college campus culture/etc.  I know a couple adults I think were impacted long term by regular use as teens/young adults.  I know a young man right now who is self treating for anxiety with regular pot use and his parents are on board and his life is just in a tail spin.  Anxiety should be treated traditionally before turning to pot IMO especially in those lower that age 25-30 who haven't been treated for mental illness before.  Anyway - I think a lot of the campus binge drinking culture revolves around untreated anxiety/depression/self esteem issues/etc.  I think staying in touch with your young person's mental health overall can help them avoid thinking they need to do that to cope.  My son's college released a large scale student survey that supported the fact that the vast majority young people did not want to drink to excess.

Related to pot use in teens

https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/legal-pot/even-little-marijuana-may-change-teen-brain-study-finds-n958536

Anyway - no I'm not personally ok with smoking, vaping, or any other drug use.  I am HUGELY supportive of medical marijuana being safe, accessible and affordable.  

[City Mouse]

Aside from the legal issues that accompany alcohol consumption, I don’t think it is right for anyone to aggressively or repeatedly push anyone to do anything whether that is drinking alcohol, smoking, drugs, sex, or even over eating or unwanted hugs. I find it extra offensive when that pressure comes from adults who should be looking out for a younger person’s best interests. However, one causal mention does not upset me.

[regentrude]

48 minutes ago, FuzzyCatz said:

I know a young man right now who is self treating for anxiety with regular pot use and his parents are on board and his life is just in a tail spin.  Anxiety should be treated traditionally before turning to pot IMO especially in those lower that age 25-30 who haven't been treated for mental illness before.  Anyway - I think a lot of the campus binge drinking culture revolves around untreated anxiety/depression/self esteem issues/etc.  I think staying in touch with your young person's mental health overall can help them avoid thinking they need to do that to cope. 

You are raising a very good point here, and I meant to comment on that in connotation with this post:

3 hours ago, DawnM said:

His friend, the one who brought it, has had his grades go from straight As and being in AIG classes, down to Ds and Fs.....and the kid doesn't care anymore.  MOST of the kids I have known who are doing pot are trying to escape something, deal with trauma in their lives, or deal with depression

 Yes. And I am wondering whether the decline in grades you notice is not actually caused by the underlying mental health condition, rather than by the self-medication with weed. I have often students whose grades and attendance slip because they are suffering from anxiety and depression , so I am wondering whether we are conflating causality and correlation.

Mental health care is a huge problem in this country, and resources are abysmally scarce. What do you do if you don't have access to a mental health provider? If you cannot afford prescription medication? What do you do if "traditional" treatment is ineffective, even after decades of trying different medications, and weed is the only thing that takes the edge of your anxiety, an anxiety that leaves you barely functioning some days? (Just to be clear: I am not talking about myself, but friends).  ETA: A friend of mine who is a vocal advocate for mental health put it succinctly: the first rule is to do whatever you have to do to stay alive one more day, and for some, that may be smoking weed. Whatever it takes to survive. 

ETA: And yes, I am fully aware that this is a major tangent off the original topic... but that's the way real conversations go.

Edited November 30, 2019 by regentrude

[Pen]

11 hours ago, Melissa in Australia said:

And my ds16 works as a production line worker at a micro brewery.  Interestingly most of the people there don't drink. I guess working with the smell of beer all day would turn you off drinking

 

Maybe.  But Some bar tenders have alcohol problems.  

Otoh I know someone who works in a chocolate making place and who loves chocolate and says the smell itself satisfies her desire for chocolate. 

[Carrie12345]

2 hours ago, whitehawk said:

Breathing is an important physical capacity IMO. 😉 DS is sensitive to smell and hates even third-hand tobacco smoke, so I'm hoping that the odor of pot will be enough to deter him from that as well.

I suspect that the cultural expectation that young people will try things is largely self-fulfilling: they take it as normal, and mostly do go on to try them, precisely because even their parents expect it.

But I’m pretty sure you know that I was referring to completely different effects. 😛 

I don’t really by into the self-fulfilling theory. I’ve never had a drink because my parents expected it. My kid’s never had a drink even though we think most will.All of my kidslove to surprise me with the unexpected, lol.

[Laura Corin]

I can't remember being pressured to drink. I have a drink about once a month if that.

I don't find it tedious to be around social drinkers, but as a pp said, that depends whether we are talking about a glass or two vs. a bottle of two.

[Chris in VA]

2 hours ago, Quill said:

There was a very interesting article in The Atlantic some years back; I really wish I had copied and saved it. It was about the results of a study on the difference (in the US)* between college alcohol use or abuse between kids who came from families where parents did not allow alcohol to minors vs. parents who furnished alcohol to minors in high school so they would “learn their limits.” The pro-alcohol parents were dubbed the “Get Real” parents, because the rationale is, let’s get real; kids will drink, especially in college, so let’s remove the forbidden fruit aspect by allowing it underage. (Before anyone gets in my butt about this, this was NOT about wine-with-dinner-type alcohol permission; this was parents providing alcohol parties to underage kids to supposedly illustrate their limits to themselves with parents present.) 

The interesting conclusion in the article - and mind you, The Atlantic tends to be progressive and liberal in tone - was that the kids with the “Get Real” parents were not less likely to binge-drink and get totally stoopid in college; in fact, they were significantly more likely to abuse alcohol than the Goodie Two-Shoes parents’ kids were. The Goodie Two-Shoes kids were more likely to not consume alcohol at all, or consume responsibly, or make a decision to abstain on any particular occasion for reasons specific to that event, such as needing to drive or being concerned about unwanted sexual activity. 

It was a very enlightening article, which I have referred to many times, including to the SIL who was offering that my kids could drink under her watch. 

*”In the US” is an important distinction, as it specifically referred to US cultural attitudes towards drinking and did not extrapolate to European countries that do not have the same drinking culture. 

Thank you so much for providing back up for my position.

[Frances]

13 hours ago, MissLemon said:

 

Yeah, I guess people are going to think what they want.  It's just exhausting to have to defend the position that no, I don't drink or smoke weed and there is nothing wrong with that.  Since pot has been decriminalized and CBD oil is now everyone's cure-all, I'm suddenly getting a lot of pressure from adults on this.  It's so weird. 

Interesting. My husband and I very, very rarely drink and I don’t think I’ve ever had an entire serving of alcohol in my life, usually just an occasional sip to taste it. Most social events we attend serve alcohol, and I never feel any pressure to drink. Then again these aren’t the type of gatherings where anyone is getting wasted. While we usually have something alcoholic in the house to offer guests with a meal, either because of gifts or things left behind after gatherings, most of our neighbors and close friends know us well enough to simply bring their own alcohol without even asking. And although our state was one of the first to legalize pot, neither of us have tried it or even been at a gathering where others were partaking, so certainly no pressure.

Now during college we both experienced the pressure to drink and I also used to get it from my brother. While he will still always offer alcohol to us when we socialize with him during our annual visit back to see family, he finally seems to just accept it when we decline.

[Frances]

46 minutes ago, Chris in VA said:

Thank you so much for providing back up for my position.

I’m not sure anyone talking about doing this with their own children on this thread was advocating for hosting underage parties for teens. I think everyone was talking about a taste or small drink at family gatherings. Those things are radically different in my opinion.

[Pen]

 

4 hours ago, seekinghim45 said:

cigarettes should be banned.  They have NO good use and cause so much harm.

Cigarette smoking is responsible for more than 480,000 deaths per year in the United States, including more than 41,000 deaths resulting from secondhand smoke exposure. This is about one in five deaths annually, or 1,300 deaths every day. On average, smokers die 10 years earlier than nonsmokers.Nov 28, 2018

 

Good.  

What about pipes, cigars and vapes?

[KungFuPanda]

14 hours ago, EmseB said:

I can't follow this logic. The reason I wouldn't want my kids (or myself) using cocaine or ecstasy have very little to do with the legality of the thing. A glass of wine is a totally different thing.

 

My beef bourguignon is so much better than my beef cocaine.

 

13 hours ago, StellaM said:

I wish people would stop comparing caffeine with alcohol. Caffeine does not have a major public health cost associated with its use.

What if they compared big mac use to alcohol use?

12 hours ago, school17777 said:

I don’t think this was an issue at our gathering (although now that I think about it, someone there was a mandated reporter but he came afterwards).  A teacher friend of mine turns down invitations where there might be underage drinking because she said she would have to report it.  She asks if there might be underage drinking and will decline the invitation if it’s a possibility.  I wonder how that works at family functions?

 

Is this really a mandatory reporter situation in that state or did the friend just assume it was? It seems like a reach, but I'm guessing the laws vary widely by location.

 

3 hours ago, Quill said:

There was a very interesting article in The Atlantic some years back; I really wish I had copied and saved it. It was about the results of a study on the difference (in the US)* between college alcohol use or abuse between kids who came from families where parents did not allow alcohol to minors vs. parents who furnished alcohol to minors in high school so they would “learn their limits.” The pro-alcohol parents were dubbed the “Get Real” parents, because the rationale is, let’s get real; kids will drink, especially in college, so let’s remove the forbidden fruit aspect by allowing it underage. (Before anyone gets in my butt about this, this was NOT about wine-with-dinner-type alcohol permission; this was parents providing alcohol parties to underage kids to supposedly illustrate their limits to themselves with parents present.) 

The interesting conclusion in the article - and mind you, The Atlantic tends to be progressive and liberal in tone - was that the kids with the “Get Real” parents were not less likely to binge-drink and get totally stoopid in college; in fact, they were significantly more likely to abuse alcohol than the Goodie Two-Shoes parents’ kids were. The Goodie Two-Shoes kids were more likely to not consume alcohol at all, or consume responsibly, or make a decision to abstain on any particular occasion for reasons specific to that event, such as needing to drive or being concerned about unwanted sexual activity. 

It was a very enlightening article, which I have referred to many times, including to the SIL who was offering that my kids could drink under her watch. 

*”In the US” is an important distinction, as it specifically referred to US cultural attitudes towards drinking and did not extrapolate to European countries that do not have the same drinking culture. 

I'm not sure how enlightening it was.  Parents throwing keggers for groups of under-aged teens is weirdly specific, not at all legal or moral, and makes for a more sensational contrast in their report.  Of course kids who are raised by people with this level of dysfunction are going to be prone to all sorts of problems later in life.  There's a reason the person writing the article discounted the wine-with-dinner families during her investigation.

 

I know it looks like I must drink a LOT to keep chiming in on this thread.  I really drink very rarely, but I enjoy it when I do.  I probably cook with as much wine as I drink straight. Last week I dumped a bottle of beer on a venison roast, and I don't actually drink beer. What I find MOST interesting with this thread is that people have different opinions about what a minor is, or what the law actually says, and that's not really opinion territory.  

[Guest]

One of the most frustrating things about DD’s Herpetology experiences is that alcohol is really a big part of it. As in, the really big conferences have as much or more networking occur in the hotel bar as at the sessions, and if you do not drink, you will be left out of a lot, and yes, you will see some of the leading lights in the field intoxicated enough to be noticeable in their behavior.  Fortunately, there are some regional ones that are less alcohol laden (mostly, I suspect, due to cost), and DD has been able to, over time, connect with labs who tend to be less party-hearty, but it definitely is an impediment, especially to undergrads who are able to attend only one conference and really need to connect with labs to find a placement, but cannot drink or are not comfortable in that environment. This especially makes it hard for young women.

 

 

[ktgrok]

19 minutes ago, dmmetler said:

One of the most frustrating things about DD’s Herpetology experiences is that alcohol is really a big part of it. As in, the really big conferences have as much or more networking occur in the hotel bar as at the sessions, and if you do not drink, you will be left out of a lot, and yes, you will see some of the leading lights in the field intoxicated enough to be noticeable in their behavior.  Fortunately, there are some regional ones that are less alcohol laden (mostly, I suspect, due to cost), and DD has been able to, over time, connect with labs who tend to be less party-hearty, but it definitely is an impediment, especially to undergrads who are able to attend only one conference and really need to connect with labs to find a placement, but cannot drink or are not comfortable in that environment. This especially makes it hard for young women.

 

 

This is a problem at a lot of types of conferences - I often wonder if science based conferences in particular due to a lot of introverted people using alcohol as social lubrication?

He runs a local conference for cyber security professionals and students, and has implemented a policy that the drink tickets for the after party can be used for any non alcoholic beverage as well, and as of this year will have some version of "quiet rooms" with no alcohol, no loud music, etc for people to congregate in a less raucous environment. 

[MercyA]

16 hours ago, StellaM said:

Let me know what you find. I haven't read the research for a couple of years, so I'm not sure about post-2016 studies. I seem to remember age of first intoxication might be implicated also ? or instead of ? Public health can take a while to catch up; of course, the alcohol industry also has a huge motivation to discredit age of first drink research. 

I just started looking into this, but here are a few interesting snippets for those who are interested:

"Our findings indicate that early drinking behaviour, regardless of level, is an indicator of alcohol-related problems in late adolescence/young adulthood even when controlling for a variety of covariates. This pattern is consistent across samples drawn from two countries with different prevention policies and drinking cultures. Our findings are in contrast to previous research on older adults, where no association between adolescent drinking and later alcohol problems was found when controlling for covariates. The divergence in findings may suggest that the impact of EOD/EOE is limited to the late adolescent and young adult period." Predicting hazardous drinking in late adolescence/young adulthood from early and excessive adolescent drinking - a longitudinal cross-national study of Norwegian and Australian adolescents (2019)

"Initial drinking experiences resulting in intoxication may be particularly important in predicting alcohol outcomes. Warner and White (2003) found that feeling intoxicated during the first alcohol experience was the strongest prospective predictor of clinically significant drinking, even after accounting for AO, context, and 14 additional psychosocial factors (e.g., family history); >50% of individuals reporting initial intoxication were drinking at levels indicative of AUDs compared to 16% who reported no intoxication. Feeling intoxicated during the first drinking episode also confers risk for problems (intoxication [OR = 2.24], per year versus family history [OR = 2.24], and an early AO [OR = 1.14 per year]) (Warner et al., 2007). Thus, part of the risk for heavy drinking and problems associated with an early AO appears to be linked to an early experience of subjective intoxication." Age of first use and delay to first intoxication in relation to trajectories of heavy drinking and alcohol-related problems during emerging adulthood (2012)

"There is no strong evidence for delaying AFD [age of first drink] as a means of preventing future adult alcohol problems. However, because alcohol is an important cause of car crashes, violence and suicide, the leading causes of death among adolescents and young people globally, there remains a clear rationale for interventions seeking to help young people avoid or better manage alcohol consumption." Age of first drinking and adult alcohol problems: systematic review of prospective cohort studies (2014)

"Animal and human research suggests that adolescence may be a vulnerable period for drug exposure due to critical neurodevelopmental processes that peak during this period. Indeed, adolescents and emerging adults who initiate binge drinking or use MJ regularly tend to show inferior cognitive skills compared to teens that abstain or use lightly or compared to individuals who begin substance use in adulthood. This review paper outlined several studies that suggest binge drinking, AUD, and chronic MJ use during the teenage and early adult years results in gray and white matter micro- and macro-structural abnormalities that are oftentimes correlated with cognitive deficits." Dare to Delay? The Impacts of Adolescent Alcohol and Marijuana Use Onset on Cognition, Brain Structure, and Function (2013)

My takeaways so far: Age of first intoxication may be more significant than age of first drink (as you suggested it might be, Stella). Heavy or frequent use by teens can cause significant cognitive deficiencies that persist into young adulthood. Limiting alcohol consumption in adolescents lowers their risk of other types of harm. 

Edited November 30, 2019 by MercyA

[ktgrok]

33 minutes ago, MercyA said:

I just started looking into this, but here are a few interesting snippets for those who are interested:

"Our findings indicate that early drinking behaviour, regardless of level, is an indicator of alcohol-related problems in late adolescence/young adulthood even when controlling for a variety of covariates. This pattern is consistent across samples drawn from two countries with different prevention policies and drinking cultures. Our findings are in contrast to previous research on older adults, where no association between adolescent drinking and later alcohol problems was found when controlling for covariates. The divergence in findings may suggest that the impact of EOD/EOE is limited to the late adolescent and young adult period." Predicting hazardous drinking in late adolescence/young adulthood from early and excessive adolescent drinking - a longitudinal cross-national study of Norwegian and Australian adolescents (2019)

"Initial drinking experiences resulting in intoxication may be particularly important in predicting alcohol outcomes. Warner and White (2003) found that feeling intoxicated during the first alcohol experience was the strongest prospective predictor of clinically significant drinking, even after accounting for AO, context, and 14 additional psychosocial factors (e.g., family history); >50% of individuals reporting initial intoxication were drinking at levels indicative of AUDs compared to 16% who reported no intoxication. Feeling intoxicated during the first drinking episode also confers risk for problems (intoxication [OR = 2.24], per year versus family history [OR = 2.24], and an early AO [OR = 1.14 per year]) (Warner et al., 2007). Thus, part of the risk for heavy drinking and problems associated with an early AO appears to be linked to an early experience of subjective intoxication." Age of first use and delay to first intoxication in relation to trajectories of heavy drinking and alcohol-related problems during emerging adulthood (2012)

"There is no strong evidence for delaying AFD [age of first drink] as a means of preventing future adult alcohol problems. However, because alcohol is an important cause of car crashes, violence and suicide, the leading causes of death among adolescents and young people globally, there remains a clear rationale for interventions seeking to help young people avoid or better manage alcohol consumption." Age of first drinking and adult alcohol problems: systematic review of prospective cohort studies (2014)

"Animal and human research suggests that adolescence may be a vulnerable period for drug exposure due to critical neurodevelopmental processes that peak during this period. Indeed, adolescents and emerging adults who initiate binge drinking or use MJ regularly tend to show inferior cognitive skills compared to teens that abstain or use lightly or compared to individuals who begin substance use in adulthood. This review paper outlined several studies that suggest binge drinking, AUD, and chronic MJ use during the teenage and early adult years results in gray and white matter micro- and macro-structural abnormalities that are oftentimes correlated with cognitive deficits." Dare to Delay? The Impacts of Adolescent Alcohol and Marijuana Use Onset on Cognition, Brain Structure, and Function (2013)

My takeaways so far: Age of first intoxication may be more significant than age of first drink (as you suggested it might be, Stella). Heavy or frequent use by teens can cause significant cognitive deficiencies that persist into young adulthood. Limiting alcohol consumption in adolescents lowers their risk of other types of harm. 

Intersting. Seems to back up the practice of some here of giving a sip or small glass (my family growing up gave kids one of those tiny cordial glasses with wine in it - so about 1.5 oz of wine or champagne, which we sipped during the meal like the adults). Also condemns the practice of letting kids get drunk or have keg parties when minors. And sorts out the difference between them beyond just the social aspect of "a glass with dinner" vs "lets get the teenager drunk so he learns what it is like". 

12 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

This is such an important point, and a great reason for people in that environment with clout to start challenging the idea that alcoholic lubrication is an essential part of bonding/networking/relaxing after mental toil.

Yup. My DH is really working hard at this because it has become a true problem in IT. And has led to some awful experiences for women, especially given the number of college students and young adults who may be easy prey for older more experienced men in the field. The balance of power is already skewed and then you add in alcohol and it can be ugly. At his conference they will give 2 drink tickets at the one party that has alcohol and have given servers/bartenders full authority to cut people off. They also have a code of conduct for the event that is pretty strict. (he's also known for making it clear to attendees that if they have an allergy/dietary issue such that the food items served don't work for them to just find anyone in a staff shirt and request something else off the regular menu and he'll authorize it and pay for it with the orangization funds separately.)

1 minute ago, StellaM said:

 

Thanks Mercy.

Yes, I thought I'd read somewhere about age of first intoxication.  What worries me about substituting intoxication for first drink, is that for younger teens, with no alcohol tolerance, intoxication can occur fairly rapidly, and at a low level of consumption. I think the first time I felt 'drunk' was at a Christmas do with adults, at 15, when they gave me a glass of champagne. I was most definitely intoxicated (in a way that a sip of communion wine wouldn't have done!)

(Unfortunately for me, the fact that I had access to alchohol in my house, and parents with a relatively permissive attitude towards under 18's drinking, meant that it was easy for me to drink frequently while still at school.  Sometimes at school. Binge drinking was extremely common in my cohort, with very few teens not drinking at all (and they all came from more authoritative religious homes). I hate to think what damage we did to ourselves. Luckily, I stopped drinking by the time I was 22, after a DV incident where being intoxicated made it very difficult to get to help, so maybe my poor old white an grey matter got a little time to repair!)

Thanks for sharing the links. It's good to see the most up-to-date info. Looking at that, I'd probably not worry about a literal sip or watered down alcohol under 18 from a health perspective, if I was confident that my child had no genetic vulnerabilities to addiction, bingeing behaviours or mental health issues. I'd still probably not engage from a perspective of wanting to make not drinking in adolescence and adulthood just as normal a choice as light social drinking.

 

 

 

Ugh, yeah. I think it is a very different scenario to be a teen in a situation where some adults are drinking a glass of wine with dinner, some are having water, some are having a soda, and they are also offered a choice of those, but a single small glass versus a situation where the adults are all going to drink to excess (even if they don't admit it) and there is a social pressure to do the same, and the teen is given carte blanche to imbibe as much as they want. 

[GoodGrief]

5 hours ago, regentrude said:

You are raising a very good point here, and I meant to comment on that in connotation with this post:

 Yes. And I am wondering whether the decline in grades you notice is not actually caused by the underlying mental health condition, rather than by the self-medication with weed. I have often students whose grades and attendance slip because they are suffering from anxiety and depression , so I am wondering whether we are conflating causality and correlation.

Mental health care is a huge problem in this country, and resources are abysmally scarce. What do you do if you don't have access to a mental health provider? If you cannot afford prescription medication? What do you do if "traditional" treatment is ineffective, even after decades of trying different medications, and weed is the only thing that takes the edge of your anxiety, an anxiety that leaves you barely functioning some days? (Just to be clear: I am not talking about myself, but friends).  ETA: A friend of mine who is a vocal advocate for mental health put it succinctly: the first rule is to do whatever you have to do to stay alive one more day, and for some, that may be smoking weed. Whatever it takes to survive. 

ETA: And yes, I am fully aware that this is a major tangent off the original topic... but that's the way real conversations go.

 

I do agree with this, and get frustrated at the tendency to separate rehab for alcohol/substance addiction from mental health treatment. In my opinion the vast majority of addicts are self-medicating. You can end the substance abuse, in theory, but there will be some other behavior that pops up unless you get serious about identifying and treating the underlying problem. It's like medicating the fever without searching out the reason the fever/immune response is occurring.

[GoodGrief]

5 hours ago, FuzzyCatz said:

 

I am not excited about the legalization of recreational marijuana.  Especially as it pertains to young people/college campus culture/etc.  I know a couple adults I think were impacted long term by regular use as teens/young adults.  I know a young man right now who is self treating for anxiety with regular pot use and his parents are on board and his life is just in a tail spin.  Anxiety should be treated traditionally before turning to pot IMO especially in those lower that age 25-30 who haven't been treated for mental illness before.  Anyway - I think a lot of the campus binge drinking culture revolves around untreated anxiety/depression/self esteem issues/etc.  I think staying in touch with your young person's mental health overall can help them avoid thinking they need to do that to cope.  My son's college released a large scale student survey that supported the fact that the vast majority young people did not want to drink to excess.

Related to pot use in teens

https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/legal-pot/even-little-marijuana-may-change-teen-brain-study-finds-n958536

Anyway - no I'm not personally ok with smoking, vaping, or any other drug use.  I am HUGELY supportive of medical marijuana being safe, accessible and affordable.  

 We have a pot shop on seemingly every corner here now, and there has been an explosion on the use of edibles in the high school (as reported by my daughter who is there and who has friends/acquaintances that use.)  Edible use is more difficult to detect than that of smoke producing substances or alcohol. I presume the kids get them from older friends/family members willing to buy. I do think it is complicating our already tenuous situation locally with youth mental health.