What do you think of the International Baccalaureate Program for high school students?

[Teaching3bears]

If you have a child who is in this or gone through it?  Or, the child of someone you know?  Or, if you looked into or heard something about it?  Pros? Cons?  How hard is it?  What kind of child does well in this program etc.?  

[MEmama]

The only thing I’ve ever heard from a reliable source, is that my cousin's sons, who are extremely gifted and precocious students, both opted to drop out of the program due to the demanding rigour. Neither felt it was in their best interest to continue. (They live in DC suburban area)

We don’t have it available here, so I can’t can’t comment on how it looks from my perspective. Obviously opinions and experiences will vary, just as they do in supposedly uniform AP programs. 

 

[mom2scouts]

I don't know much about it, but it was incredibly controversial in a neighboring school district for some reason. They ended up dropping the program after so many parents complained about it.

[Pen]

People I know: High pressure.    

[madteaparty]

The only thing I know is that it’s one of the only “proofs”? accepted overseas as having completed a high school education for purposes of being accepted to said overseas college. A handful of APs might work as well. 

[gardenmom5]

both of my girls are IB dips.  1dd started the 2nd year.  as a program, it's great.  how it is administered - can make or break it, or make it good or bad.  (I think the only other thing that would have made 1dd happy would have been early college admission.  it wasn't an option.)

I loved how ToK helped her - but even her psych class used IB theory.  original sources, ask questions from both sides.    in college, when she took a class (with an obnoxious prof) that was required, ostensibly to teach the students how to "think" (the professor was more about indoctrination to her own political agenda, actual thinking/questions that disagreed with her not allowed) - dd would ask questions that would poke holes in everything the woman said.  yes -she had contempt for the prof, and thought she was an idiot.  (the prof at one point told her "you're brilliant, but you're wasting your talent".  mom - what does that mean? - it's means she's mad you won't be her protégé'.  - she had excellent relationships with her dept heads.)

[gardenmom5]

like AP - you can take IB - hl (high level) or sl (standard level) on an as wanted basis.  to do an actual IB dip, there are mandatory subjects,  mandatory number of hl classes, and sl classes.   exams are taken and graded outside the school district.  who is grading them various by year and as determined by the IB organization.  The ToK (theory of knowledge) is a mandatory class for an IB dip.   

There must also be an original research paper, graded by someone outside the district as determined by the IB organization (it changes every year.) some of the kids did amazing research (there was a presentation for the kids to present their papers to the parents/et.al.) - and some, it was clear they came up with something to say they did.

it is a very rigorous college prep program.  many of the kids who did it, went on to good schools-  and said their freshman year in college was easier.

colleges vary by how they accept the credit, and exam scores affect how a college will give credit..  while my girls didn't really skip classes for doing IB - they got into their university because they did IB.

[AK_Mom4]

Oldest DD taught at an IB school until this year when she went back to grad school.  Producing a lot of written work is part of the program.  Essays, articles, analysis - writing, writing, writing.  The kids that do well are the ones that are comfortable with writing and that had good short term memories.

That being said - DD loved the kids she taught.  They tended to be high achievers and focused on their interests.  DD is a music teacher and it was lots of fun teaching kids that were passionate about music.

[ktgrok]

2 hours ago, MEmama said:

The only thing I’ve ever heard from a reliable source, is that my cousin's sons, who are extremely gifted and precocious students, both opted to drop out of the program due to the demanding rigour. Neither felt it was in their best interest to continue. (They live in DC suburban area)

We don’t have it available here, so I can’t can’t comment on how it looks from my perspective. Obviously opinions and experiences will vary, just as they do in supposedly uniform AP programs. 

 

This. 

I attended a school with an IB program for one year, and it was miserable. So so so much focus on all this work, so much pressure. I can't begin to describe the pressure. I hated it. There were kids in my 9th grade class with ulcers, others self medicating with drugs, etc. When I told one teacher I was transferring to the normal public school (a great school where I took AP classes and then did early admission for college) he told me I was making the biggest mistake of my life. Even at that young age I knew he was crazy - how on earth would changing to a different but well respected highschool be that tragic a mistake? But that was the mentality there. That you had to work constantly or you'd never amount to anything in life. 

The ones that stayed and did okay were driven, type A, high achieving types. The others that stayed but didn't get an IB diploma were smart as heck but gave up on the heavy and sometimes pointless to them workload and stayed only because they had friends there. 

I'd be very hesitant to send a child to one. I think they totally neglect the need for kids, even teens, to live in the present, not totally in the future. 

[maize]

A lot depends on the school.

Find out what the actual exam score averages are for the specific program you are considering, some programs don't actually prepare the kids to succeed on the exams.

Those that do prepare the kids well tend to be very intense. I'm an IB graduate and scored well but my last two years of highschool were so stressful that I tend to advise people away from full IB. Teenagers don't need to be stressed to death all the time over school.

If you have a very bright kid who has good executive function and your local IB program is exceptionally well run it can be a good fit. Some kids like it because it attracts other high performing kids who care about academics.

My program did make college seem easy by comparison.

[Lori D.]

Here are links to the past threads on IB (these are all linked at the bottom of PAGE 2 of the "High School Motherlode #1" thread pinned at the top of the High School Board). You might also post this question over on the High School board for a few more eyeballs as some moms on the high school and college WTM boards don't read the Chat board. 😉 

What exactly is the IB program?
Do you guys know anything about the IB program in high school?
IB vs AP Capstone vs homeschooling with college classes
IB and AP question
Pros and Cons of an IB program in high school, and is it worth it?
International Baccalaureate? (sharing of personal experiences with IB)
Does anyone have experience with an IB program?

Edited November 29, 2019 by Lori D.

[Lawyer&Mom]

My sister did the full IB diploma and it was not a great fit.  By nature she works super hard and is a perfectionist.  It’s 110% or nothing for her.  At the same time she’s not the best at taking tests.  She felt the pressure of the program so intensely. I’m not sure in the end the benefit was worth the cost for her.

A kid who loved high stakes tests?  And could keep some perspective during the program?  Sure, maybe.  

[Laura Corin]

My sons both did the IB. It was a lot of work, but they gained a lot from it.  I agree with Maize that it's important to compare the school's average results to US and world averages.

The workload also depends on the rigour of the preceding two years. My sons' school was fairly rigorous.  ETA, for reference, for example, in order to take chemistry in the two-year IB programme at my sons' school, you would already need to have previously taken two years of chemistry to a syllabus such as this:

Specification here: https://www.aqa.org.uk/subjects/science/gcse/chemistry-8462/specification-at-a-glance

Sample exam papers here (they needed 'higher', not 'foundation'): https://www.aqa.org.uk/subjects/science/gcse/chemistry-8462/assessment-resources

Edited November 29, 2019 by Laura Corin

[klmama]

There's a Day School near here with an IB program.  Everyone I've known who attended there eventually switched to a different school because of the intense pressure.  A couple of kids transferred to a boarding school in another state, and some switched to a local high school where they took AP and honors level courses; they were very, very pleased by the more relaxed pace there.  Since I've never known anyone who stayed all the way through, I can't speak to the success of the program.  All I'm aware of is the pressure and how stressed and anxious the students I knew became.

[maize]

4 hours ago, Laura Corin said:

My sons both did the IB. It was a lot of work, but they gained a lot from it.  I agree with Maize that it's important to compare the school's average results to US and world averages.

The workload also depends on the rigour of the preceding two years. My sons' school was fairly rigorous.  ETA, for reference, for example, in order to take chemistry in the two-year IB programme at my sons' school, you would already need to have previously taken two years of chemistry to a syllabus such as this:

Specification here: https://www.aqa.org.uk/subjects/science/gcse/chemistry-8462/specification-at-a-glance

Sample exam papers here (they needed 'higher', not 'foundation'): https://www.aqa.org.uk/subjects/science/gcse/chemistry-8462/assessment-resources

That would definitely have made things more doable.

We moved from South America to Europe between my second and third year of high school. The school I attended for 9th and 10th grades was far from rigorous and definitely not IB prep. I'd never taken any chemistry at all before tackling IB chem in 11th and 12th.

[MEmama]

9 hours ago, madteaparty said:

The only thing I know is that it’s one of the only “proofs”? accepted overseas as having completed a high school education for purposes of being accepted to said overseas college. A handful of APs might work as well. 

APS are fine at all the UK schools my son is researching. 

[ktgrok]

7 hours ago, klmama said:

There's a Day School near here with an IB program.  Everyone I've known who attended there eventually switched to a different school because of the intense pressure.  A couple of kids transferred to a boarding school in another state, and some switched to a local high school where they took AP and honors level courses; they were very, very pleased by the more relaxed pace there.  Since I've never known anyone who stayed all the way through, I can't speak to the success of the program.  All I'm aware of is the pressure and how stressed and anxious the students I knew became.

Yes, that was my experience. 

My biggest issues are that they constantly are talking about the exams, about college, etc. Which I get that some kids need reminders, but these kids don't. Instead, it basically becomes a mantra that your life for the next 4 years is nothing but practice for the tests. Nothing matters now, it is all about college. I was constantly told in 9th grade that I had to do something because "that's how they do it in college". Okay, well, I'm not IN college. I'm in 9th grade! 

I should be clear, it isn't that the work was too hard. I got good grades without struggle. It wasn't the workload, not at that point. It was the atmosphere, the pressure...i don't know how to explain it. But it was NOT healthy nor developmentally appropriate. 

And I think that the entire atmosphere sets kids up to become part of the "rat race". It conditions them to think that a life worth living is one that is constantly full of stress, constantly busy, constantly about keeping up, about keeping score. That isn't a life I want for my kids. It lacks balance. Work isn't everything - it doesn't define you. Neither does school, or your grades. But that program makes it seem like what matters in life is a set of tests, what matters in life is what college you go to, and then later what your job is, etc. It was set up to churn out kids conditioned to accept an 80 work week and a total lack of work/life balance. 

 

[EKS]

My older son dropped out of an IB program halfway through his junior year of high school.  In his case, he was at a very small school, so there were no choices as far as classes went, and that included which HL classes you could take.  They only offered one science class (biology and he should have been taking physics) and one art class (visual arts).  Everyone was required to take HL English and history, which was not a good fit for a STEM focused kid.  He hated it and left to do dual enrollment at the local CC. 

I think that the IB program can be good for some kids as long as it is large enough to allow for student choice.  It is also important that the classes that feed into the program adequately prepare the students.

 

Edited November 29, 2019 by EKS

[Laura Corin]

6 hours ago, MEmama said:

APS are fine at all the UK schools my son is researching. 

Yes, they are. Usually SAT plus APs, sometimes SAT subject Tests.

[Teaching3bears]

Thanks so much for this input.  Keep it coming!  The school said there is 2 hours of homework/night but I’m not sure I trust that it doesn’t work out to 5 hours.  The program would be full of bright, motivated kids and my son would like this.  I know it would have a good impact on him.  He is extremely driven when he is succeeding and something is interesting to him.  But he still likes to play and goof off and I see that as a good thing.  I don’t want all his hours focussed on work. I agree that balance is really important and I don’t want him to get sick with anxiety over exams.   I have heard good and bad things about the public school near us.  I know there will be a mix of kids in terms of how much effort they put in and teachers pass them anyways.  Also, I have heard that some of the teachers are really good and some put in minimum effort.  

[maize]

8 minutes ago, Teaching3bears said:

Thanks so much for this input.  Keep it coming!  The school said there is 2 hours of homework/night but I’m not sure I trust that it doesn’t work out to 5 hours.  The program would be full of bright, motivated kids and my son would like this.  I know it would have a good impact on him.  He is extremely driven when he is succeeding and something is interesting to him.  But he still likes to play and goof off and I see that as a good thing.  I don’t want all his hours focussed on work. I agree that balance is really important and I don’t want him to get sick with anxiety over exams.   I have heard good and bad things about the public school near us.  I know there will be a mix of kids in terms of how much effort they put in and teachers pass them anyways.  Also, I have heard that some of the teachers are really good and some put in minimum effort.  

Would he have to do the full IB program? If the school allows students to enroll in IB classes without being IB diploma candidates he could choose the best classes with the best teachers without the inflexibility of doing the full program. 

Edited November 29, 2019 by maize

[MEmama]

49 minutes ago, Teaching3bears said:

Thanks so much for this input.  Keep it coming!  The school said there is 2 hours of homework/night but I’m not sure I trust that it doesn’t work out to 5 hours.  The program would be full of bright, motivated kids and my son would like this.  I know it would have a good impact on him.  He is extremely driven when he is succeeding and something is interesting to him.  But he still likes to play and goof off and I see that as a good thing.  I don’t want all his hours focussed on work. I agree that balance is really important and I don’t want him to get sick with anxiety over exams.   I have heard good and bad things about the public school near us.  I know there will be a mix of kids in terms of how much effort they put in and teachers pass them anyways.  Also, I have heard that some of the teachers are really good and some put in minimum effort.  

I find 2 hours per night suspicious. DS has considerably more than that in his Honors and AP courses. 

Between schoolwork and running there’s not much life balance even in his PS. 

[RootAnn]

It can really vary by school. My nieces go/went to a high school with a IB program. Of the three that have already graduated, only one chose to participate/ get an IB diploma. She had more homework than her sisters but wasn't swamped. I don't know, but think she was in mostly SL (vs HL) courses. She's the most academic of the girls but is not currently attending college. (Either dropped out after two years or taking mid-college gap year(s) -- no idea.) She was able to place into higher level college classes because of her IB diploma/scores.

[gardenmom5]

13 hours ago, maize said:

That would definitely have made things more doable.

We moved from South America to Europe between my second and third year of high school. The school I attended for 9th and 10th grades was far from rigorous and definitely not IB prep. I'd never taken any chemistry at all before tackling IB chem in 11th and 12th.

dd's high school wasn't good at communicating they needed regular high school chem before starting IB chem.  we found out in her 10 grade year, so got her signed up for chem 101 at the local CC.  (she had the strongest score in the class, despite never doing the homework because it wasn't graded.)  she was still a bit behind - but still pulled off an A in IB chem the next semester.

the district schedule for lab science  is biology, physics, chemistry - In that order.  (having physics before chemistry is important.  2dd has an undergrad in chem, and someone told her she "only" needed algebra based physics. (re: high school)  shoot them.  she spent a lot of time being tutored by the dept head because she should have had calc based physics.  I'm sorry she didn't get the same IB chem teacher 1dd did.  (he got his bs & ms in chem from yale.  he didn't like working in a lab, but loves teaching. he's now at a private high school where they do "field trips" - to such places as the Galapagos islands.)

3 hours ago, Teaching3bears said:

Thanks so much for this input.  Keep it coming!  The school said there is 2 hours of homework/night but I’m not sure I trust that it doesn’t work out to 5 hours.  The program would be full of bright, motivated kids and my son would like this.  I know it would have a good impact on him.  He is extremely driven when he is succeeding and something is interesting to him.  But he still likes to play and goof off and I see that as a good thing.  I don’t want all his hours focussed on work. I agree that balance is really important and I don’t want him to get sick with anxiety over exams.   I have heard good and bad things about the public school near us.  I know there will be a mix of kids in terms of how much effort they put in and teachers pass them anyways.  Also, I have heard that some of the teachers are really good and some put in minimum effort.  

I'd be suspicious.. . . . . some teachers aren't good with what they assign either. 

2dd had a high school math teacher (10th grade, prior to IB) that just for that class, was two hours a night.  the teacher insisted 2dd was in the wrong class and should move to an easier class. . . . . 2dd had the highest grade.  next thing we heard, the teacher had taken "emergency leave" (and turned up teaching back at a middle school.)  that class went through so many substitutes before it stabilized.  at least it was one teaching at an appropriate level.

 

again - it does depend how the program is administered/run.  my girls were never overwhelmed with homework during IB.  I don't consider 1dd typical, but she had to change a class and as we were looking through the master schedule - she glommed onto a Shakespeare class.  the counselor kept trying to get her to do something easy.   even then, - she had everything very under control.

2 hours ago, RootAnn said:

It can really vary by school. My nieces go/went to a high school with a IB program. Of the three that have already graduated, only one chose to participate/ get an IB diploma. She had more homework than her sisters but wasn't swamped. I don't know, but think she was in mostly SL (vs HL) courses. She's the most academic of the girls but is not currently attending college. (Either dropped out after two years or taking mid-college gap year(s) -- no idea.) She was able to place into higher level college classes because of her IB diploma/scores.

re: the bolded - very true.  don't just talk to the admins - talk to the students doing the program.

to get an IB dip - there is a minimum requirement for how many HL classes, and how many SL classes a student *must* take to be eligible for an IB diploma.

I started my girls on a good college prep track in middle school.  both started a foreign language as soon as it was offered. (they had 6/7 years respectively*). both were on a math track that would get them started in calculus by the time they graduated high school, etc.   so it was a reasonably smooth transition from that into a more rigorous IB.

*studies have demonstrated kids with latin, german, French have better verbal SAT scores than those who take Spanish.   2dd took 7 years of French (the district breaks the first 'year' into two years starting in 6th grade.) when she was 21,  2dd went to south America for 18 mos, and had to speak Spanish.  Before she left, she did an intense eight week program to prepare her for speaking Spanish.  she was the ONLY one in her group, that had never taken Spanish.  because of her seven years of French - she picked it up faster than any of those who had taken a year or two (maybe more) of Spanish.    

[mumto2]

This won’t help the OP but adding it for others.  

I suspect IB scores need to be higher for foreign students than whatever is quoted as acceptable by the UK Universities at least sometimes. 😉A friend’s granddaughter had qualifying scores,  decent activities.....captain of a couple of sports teams etc and was not accepted to any of her UCAS preferences while living overseas.  I knew someone who got into one of her choices with a similar score who was a UK applicant.  The granddaughter  took a gap year, retook the exams and upped the score,  was accepted to all five choices.  That’s all I know, no other IB experience.

We used a combo of ap’s and Sat Subjects with the ACT and both were accepted as British applicants to UK schools, no problem.

[Laura Corin]

12 hours ago, mumto2 said:

This won’t help the OP but adding it for others.  

I suspect IB scores need to be higher for foreign students than whatever is quoted as acceptable by the UK Universities at least sometimes. 😉A friend’s granddaughter had qualifying scores,  decent activities.....captain of a couple of sports teams etc and was not accepted to any of her UCAS preferences while living overseas.  I knew someone who got into one of her choices with a similar score who was a UK applicant.  The granddaughter  took a gap year, retook the exams and upped the score,  was accepted to all five choices.  That’s all I know, no other IB experience.

I wonder if the granddaughter also rewrote her personal statement. In general UK universities are avid for foreign students, because the fees are higher and the intake numbers uncapped. A personal statement that stressed sporting/extracurricular achievement rather than academic passion might have been a hard no, however.

Edited November 30, 2019 by Laura Corin

[MEmama]

30 minutes ago, Laura Corin said:

I wonder if the granddaughter also rewrote her personal statement. In general UK universities are avid for foreign students, because the fees are higher and the intake numbers uncapped. A personal statement that stressed sporting/extracurricular achievement rather than academic passion might have been a hard no, however.

DS has been researching the personal statement. He’s already stressed out about it! 

[mumto2]

1 hour ago, Laura Corin said:

I wonder if the granddaughter also rewrote her personal statement. In general UK universities are avid for foreign students, because the fees are higher and the intake numbers uncapped. A personal statement that stressed sporting/extracurricular achievement rather than academic passion might have been a hard no, however.

I imagine the whole application was reworked.  They laid the whole thing at the just qualifying scores in the first application but the second statement was possibly much better also.  They did spend a great deal on gap year experiences after the retakes which I had thought was to beef up the statement.  I  couldn’t really ask much because the friend was rather critical about how my dc’s had been educated before these events took place and my dc’s were applying that year also.  One of my first acquaintances in our village and one of my harder people to deal with if I am being really honest.  

The fees are much higher........this girl’s older sibling thought because they carried a UK passport they were UK for application purposes.  Somehow no one in that family understood that actual residence made a difference.  A month or so before they were due at Uni a shocking bill arrived........in the end they are definitely overseas students.

[Laura Corin]

1 hour ago, mumto2 said:

The fees are much higher........this girl’s older sibling thought because they carried a UK passport they were UK for application purposes.  Somehow no one in that family understood that actual residence made a difference.  A month or so before they were due at Uni a shocking bill arrived........in the end they are definitely overseas students.

One of the reasons we moved back to the UK when we did was to pay local fees. There are lots of UK citizens around the world who have never paid UK taxes and nor have their parents, so it's considered unfair that they should benefit from subsidised fees.  Three years of non-boarding-school EU residence is required.

The offer letter will have stated the fee status - I see such letters every day at work - but they clearly didn't understand the implications.

Edited November 30, 2019 by Laura Corin

[Farrar]

My impression from a number of kids mine know and from when I was working in education and knew people in IB schools is that it's a huge amount of what I might call rigorous busywork. It's not false rigor exactly, but I do think there's a level of work at which you're just not getting more returns. You're just writing more of the same sort of thing, doing more of the same sort of problem. I mean, if you're taking calculus and you've mastered a skill, doing twenty pages more of the work is still a big time suck - and with what purpose? If you've mastered writing a decent timed essay, doing ten more in a month is still going to take a huge chunk of your time. My impression of IB is that it's a bit like that. The rigor is genuine, but also involves more work than necessary at the vast majority of schools doing IB programs. I'm sure this varies.

My impression is also that it's dying a bit in American schools. A lot of schools have dual programs - you can pick AP track or IB track (or regular track, depending on the school). Kids don't pick IB so much. I know of at least one school that had to drop their program. The IB takes more time, doesn't lead to getting into better US colleges at least, and generally you risk having a lower GPA and therefore a lower class rank. So if you have a choice, AP is much more flexible and still offers the same type of traditional rigor.

[Guest]

One thing we found in looking at IB was that if you went to an IB school, but did not do the diploma, even if you chose not to do it so you could take higher level classes in some areas than were Offered by the school, you risked not getting the “took the most challenging academic options available” in the counselor’s letter, because the IB diploma was considered the most challenging option. In our case, the IB schools simply didn’t match what DD wanted/needed. 

[catz]

1 hour ago, Farrar said:

My impression from a number of kids mine know and from when I was working in education and knew people in IB schools is that it's a huge amount of what I might call rigorous busywork. It's not false rigor exactly, but I do think there's a level of work at which you're just not getting more returns. You're just writing more of the same sort of thing, doing more of the same sort of problem. I mean, if you're taking calculus and you've mastered a skill, doing twenty pages more of the work is still a big time suck - and with what purpose? If you've mastered writing a decent timed essay, doing ten more in a month is still going to take a huge chunk of your time. My impression of IB is that it's a bit like that. The rigor is genuine, but also involves more work than necessary at the vast majority of schools doing IB programs. I'm sure this varies.

My impression is also that it's dying a bit in American schools. A lot of schools have dual programs - you can pick AP track or IB track (or regular track, depending on the school). Kids don't pick IB so much. I know of at least one school that had to drop their program. The IB takes more time, doesn't lead to getting into better US colleges at least, and generally you risk having a lower GPA and therefore a lower class rank. So if you have a choice, AP is much more flexible and still offers the same type of traditional rigor.

We have a local high school that offers IB and know kids that have both completed the degree and changed course along the way.  This is my impression as well - it's a lot of hoop jumping and extra busy work with decreasing returns on that busy work over time.  The kids I know who completed IB tended to have a much more boring profile on the extracurricular side - they couldn't have a job or do deep extras/volunteering, etc because of time constraints.  Those students are not getting amazing acceptances over other similar high stat/high rigor students taking other paths. But I have noticed a small number of quirky colleges do seem to really like IB.  

We have been happy with the dual enrollment program in our state.