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gardenmom5

more measles . . . heartbreaking

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this is samoa.  apparently - their vaccination rate fell from 70% in 2013 - to 30% last year.  I want to force antivaxxers to read this - maybe even send them there to help.  23 child deaths - with average age 13 mos.

https://ksltv.com/426318/samoa-measles-epidemic-worsens-with-24-children-now-dead/?fbclid=IwAR1rCIJBMJirW78SsKtUfnTY55jTM3oTmffstZENvI4Pr9dGQmazXen_NXw

 

just heartbreaking.

 

eta: I just noticed the typo in the headline.  how embarrassing  . . . . fixed it.

Edited by gardenmom5
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3 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

Is anti-vaxx a thing in other countries or is it just the USA?

It is definitely a thing in other countries.

Especially those where it isn't mandatory or where exemptions for other than medical reasons are available.

 

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18 minutes ago, maize said:

It is definitely a thing in other countries.

Especially those where it isn't mandatory or where exemptions for other than medical reasons are available.

 

I remember the report out of India from a number of years ago - there were polio outbreaks, so the gov't was going around vaccinating all the surrounding villages in an attempt to contain the outbreaks.  the leaders of a "certain religious sect" were telling their followers it was a gov't trick, and to not vaccinate their children.  the other mothers had their children vaccinated. it was heartbreaking as those mothers (from the certain religious sect) held their sick (and probably permanently crippled) children.

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Given that the CIA absolutely used polio vaccinations as a cover to do espionage work in that region, espionage with the goal and result of killing several people, I'm hardly surprised that some people are now suspicious of genuine vaccination schemes.

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36 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

Given that the CIA absolutely used polio vaccinations as a cover to do espionage work in that region, espionage with the goal and result of killing several people, I'm hardly surprised that some people are now suspicious of genuine vaccination schemes.

In Samoa? 

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59 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

Given that the CIA absolutely used polio vaccinations as a cover to do espionage work in that region, espionage with the goal and result of killing several people, I'm hardly surprised that some people are now suspicious of genuine vaccination schemes.

the clerics telling their followers not to have their children vaccinated were in India.

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It’s frustrating that those in the anti-vax camp keep saying that measles is not so bad.  Tell that to the families of those 24 dead children. 😢

Edited by athena1277
Edited to fix typo
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There's possibly issues with people bringing kids for well child checks where they would get the vaccinations done. I'm guessing that is the bigger problem than a true anti-vaccination sentiment. There may be other issues with health and access to medical care that contributes to a higher death rate than is typically seen.

I worked for years in nursing in underserved communities (just to explain my perspective and thoughts.) My husband still does, in public health.

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25 minutes ago, GoodGrief1 said:

There's possibly issues with people bringing kids for well child checks where they would get the vaccinations done. I'm guessing that is the bigger problem than a true anti-vaccination sentiment. There may be other issues with health and access to medical care that contributes to a higher death rate than is typically seen.

I worked for years in nursing in underserved communities (just to explain my perspective and thoughts.) My husband still does, in public health.

The article hinted at two:

Quote

The government also shut down a private clinic and is investigating how hundreds of vaccines were taken without authorization and then sold for a fee.

and 

Quote

Helen Petousis-Harris, a vaccine expert at New Zealand’s University of Auckland, said the Samoan government halted its immunization program for several months last year after two infants died from a medical mishap involving a vaccine.

 

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1 hour ago, GoodGrief1 said:

There's possibly issues with people bringing kids for well child checks where they would get the vaccinations done. I'm guessing that is the bigger problem than a true anti-vaccination sentiment. There may be other issues with health and access to medical care that contributes to a higher death rate than is typically seen.

I worked for years in nursing in underserved communities (just to explain my perspective and thoughts.) My husband still does, in public health.

I know there are other reasons for the situation in samoa,- but anitvaxxers insist no vaccine is a better outcome than being vaccinated.   the reason these kids weren't vaccinated is irrelevant- the point is, they weren't.  antivaxxers NEED a reality check about what happens to kids who aren't vaccinated.

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36 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

I know there are other reasons for the situation in samoa,- but anitvaxxers insist no vaccine is a better outcome than being vaccinated.   the reason these kids weren't vaccinated is irrelevant- the point is, they weren't.  antivaxxers NEED a reality check about what happens to kids who aren't vaccinated.

I know a lot of "anti-vaxxers," so it makes me sad to see them thrown under the bus anytime an outbreak happens (my kids are vaxxed, fwiw).  A more typical anti-vaxx sentiment revolves around the issue of true informed consent (understanding the risks and benefits of the vaccine(s) as well as the actual risks of the illness, coupled with the ability to decline, delay, or selectively vaccinate.  Regardless, blaming them for the outbreak makes no sense.  

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At least half of those infants would not have been vaccinated under standard US practices either.  They were so young.  Plus, I would be extremely reluctant to rush the vax if I knew of 2 recent deaths from botched vaccines.  Those folks could not have predicted a measles epidemic.

Sounds like they also have some corruption issues to deal with if they want to restore public trust in vaccines.

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32 minutes ago, SKL said:

At least half of those infants would not have been vaccinated under standard US practices either.  They were so young.  Plus, I would be extremely reluctant to rush the vax if I knew of 2 recent deaths from botched vaccines.  Those folks could not have predicted a measles epidemic.

Sounds like they also have some corruption issues to deal with if they want to restore public trust in vaccines.

 

Yes. One of the reasons it is important to have herd immunity in a community is to protect those who CANNOT be vaccinated -- whether it is because they are too young, or allergic, or immunocompromised, etc.

 

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I did some googling last night about this, because several of my friends don't vaccinate and I need to be informed to be persuasive. If I say to them, "You're being stupid and trusting stupid sources of information," that will be the end of the conversation.  If I can say, "Yeah, I read up on that and boy, is there more to that," maybe they'll hear me and begin to read more broadly.  Some have listened to me and eventually begun vaccinating.

There's quite a backstory to this particular situation. I don't have a medical background, but I'm including my links so if you know more please correct any misconceptions I have! 

https://www.immune.org.nz/hot-topic/infant-deaths-samoa-tragic-outcome-error-preparing-mmr-vaccine

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-08-02/samoa-nurses-sentenced-manslaughter-infant-vaccination-deaths/11378494

https://www.immunize.org/technically-speaking/20101101.asp

So, in July 2018 two babies died within minutes of their vaccination. All vaccination was stopped in order to figure out why. It was quickly found that one of the nurses had mixed the vaccine doses incorrectly.

One form of the MMR comes as a powder, I assume to make it more shelf stable, and must be mixed with water. She mixed it with an expired anesthetic. Holy crap, what a terrible thing to do.

The second child's parents tried to decline the vaccine but the second nurse gave the shot anyway, and then that child also died. 

All vaccination on Samoa was stopped to find out what happened. 

Both nurses went to JAIL for five years.  The court took this very seriously.  This was not a vaccine problem. It was massive malpractice.

Vaccinations resumed after the malpractice was discovered, but a lot of folks didn't trust the vaccination process.  So here they are in this awful, sad situation. And, yeah, the measles are truly dangerous.

I'm hoping that my friends and I can have more fact-based conversations about these things and still treat each other well.

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16 hours ago, shinyhappypeople said:

I know a lot of "anti-vaxxers," so it makes me sad to see them thrown under the bus anytime an outbreak happens (my kids are vaxxed, fwiw).  A more typical anti-vaxx sentiment revolves around the issue of true informed consent (understanding the risks and benefits of the vaccine(s) as well as the actual risks of the illness, coupled with the ability to decline, delay, or selectively vaccinate.  Regardless, blaming them for the outbreak makes no sense.  

I have read WAY *too many* comments from antivaxxers on others site - they're not interested in learning, or delayed, etc. they think vaccines are evil. they "shout from the roof tops' that no one dies from measles.  or is affected in other ways.  the only way some of these people will be educated - is seeing the harm up close and personal.  THATS what I'm saying.

not blaming them for samoa - wanting to force some education.  we had an antivaxxe'd based outbreak here earlier this year.  our state laws regarding vaccination was changed as a result.  no more "philosophical" exemptions.  medical exemptions only.

53 minutes ago, SKL said:

At least half of those infants would not have been vaccinated under standard US practices either.  They were so young.  Plus, I would be extremely reluctant to rush the vax if I knew of 2 recent deaths from botched vaccines.  Those folks could not have predicted a measles epidemic.

Sounds like they also have some corruption issues to deal with if they want to restore public trust in vaccines.

this isn't about what caused the situation there - this is about the antivaxxers here, and in Europe (and other places) - who claim no harm has befallen a child who had measles.  some people only learn when they have to deal with this type of incident up close and personal.

8 minutes ago, elroisees said:

I did some googling last night about this, because several of my friends don't vaccinate and I need to be informed to be persuasive. If I say to them, "You're being stupid and trusting stupid sources of information," that will be the end of the conversation.  If I can say, "Yeah, I read up on that and boy, is there more to that," maybe they'll hear me and begin to read more broadly.  Some have listened to me and eventually begun vaccinating.

There's quite a backstory to this particular situation. I don't have a medical background, but I'm including my links so if you know more please correct any misconceptions I have! 

https://www.immune.org.nz/hot-topic/infant-deaths-samoa-tragic-outcome-error-preparing-mmr-vaccine

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-08-02/samoa-nurses-sentenced-manslaughter-infant-vaccination-deaths/11378494

https://www.immunize.org/technically-speaking/20101101.asp

So, in July 2018 two babies died within minutes of their vaccination. All vaccination was stopped in order to figure out why. It was quickly found that one of the nurses had mixed the vaccine doses incorrectly.

One form of the MMR comes as a powder, I assume to make it more shelf stable, and must be mixed with water. She mixed it with an expired anesthetic. Holy crap, what a terrible thing to do.

The second child's parents tried to decline the vaccine but the second nurse gave the shot anyway, and then that child also died. 

All vaccination on Samoa was stopped to find out what happened. 

Both nurses went to JAIL for five years.  The court took this very seriously.  This was not a vaccine problem. It was massive malpractice.

Vaccinations resumed after the malpractice was discovered, but a lot of folks didn't trust the vaccination process.  So here they are in this awful, sad situation. And, yeah, the measles are truly dangerous.

I'm hoping that my friends and I can have more fact-based conversations about these things and still treat each other well.

mistakes certainly happen.  such a tragedy.  and these situations lead to reviewing protocols and implementing more stringent procedures to help prevent them.

dd stopped at least one nurse making a similar medical mistake (not a vaccine) with a premie in the NICU.  

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Again though, you’re not going to convince anyone that they should change their vaccine position when you’re conflating measles deaths from a completely different vaccine situation in another country and saying “see?! That’s why YOU and YOUR family choices are deadly”.

 

That’s just offensive and bad argumentation based on a faulty premise, and I’m someone who actually vaccinates my children and is in favor of it.  Sheesh.

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The death rate per case in the Samoa situation is very high compared to modern measles death rates.  I wonder why that would be.

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1 hour ago, gardenmom5 said:

I have read WAY *too many* comments from antivaxxers on others site - they're not interested in learning, or delayed, etc. they think vaccines are evil. they "shout from the roof tops' that no one dies from measles.  or is affected in other ways.  the only way some of these people will be educated - is seeing the harm up close and personal.  THATS what I'm saying.

not blaming them for samoa - wanting to force some education.  we had an antivaxxe'd based outbreak here earlier this year.  our state laws regarding vaccination was changed as a result.  no more "philosophical" exemptions.  medical exemptions only.

this isn't about what caused the situation there - this is about the antivaxxers here, and in Europe (and other places) - who claim no harm has befallen a child who had measles.  some people only learn when they have to deal with this type of incident up close and personal.

mistakes certainly happen.  such a tragedy.  and these situations lead to reviewing protocols and implementing more stringent procedures to help prevent them.

dd stopped at least one nurse making a similar medical mistake (not a vaccine) with a premie in the NICU.  

 

Our vaccine schedule IS a problem - period. I don't think all vaccines are evil, but I think ignoring risks and not allowing people to make educated, informed choices for their families is just as irresponsible. People need to be able to weigh risk vs benefit for their own families. 

For people to claim no harm has ever befallen a child because of a vaccine is no less irresponsible than people claiming no harm comes from measles. Vaccine injuries are real, and the children/families affected aren't lesser than those whose children were lost/affected from diseases. Unfortunately, neither situation (fully vaccinating everyone NOR not vaccinating anyone), will eliminate all death.

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1 minute ago, StaceyinLA said:

 

Our vaccine schedule IS a problem - period. I don't think all vaccines are evil, but I think ignoring risks and not allowing people to make educated, informed choices for their families is just as irresponsible. People need to be able to weigh risk vs benefit for their own families. 

For people to claim no harm has ever befallen a child because of a vaccine is no less irresponsible than people claiming no harm comes from measles. Vaccine injuries are real, and the children/families affected aren't lesser than those whose children were lost/affected from diseases. Unfortunately, neither situation (fully vaccinating everyone NOR not vaccinating anyone), will eliminate all death.

I agree there's a problem with it - too many parents weren't meeting a more relaxed schedule, they wouldn't bring their kids in as often as required.  *reasonable* people need to be able to make choices.  unreasonable people - put other people at risk.

I have a friend whose son nearly died after a vaccine - her uncle was a medical researcher, and actually saved his life. - her other children were vaccinated just fine.

fully vaccinating reduces the number of deaths over no vaccination.

many also use the "vaccines cause autism" - that study was pushed by a man who was marketing his own vaccine, which required destroying the vaccine on the market so his would be accepted.  most antivaxxers don't know that.

I have two children formally diagnosed with autism.   - especially with dudeling, he was showing signs of something seriously off as an infant, before ever receiving a vaccine.  I grew up when some of those vaccines didn't even start being administered until I was in elementary school (and that's where I got them.) - I can remember doing things/struggling with things that were signs of autism in my youngest before I ever had a vaccine.

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30 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

Again though, you’re not going to convince anyone that they should change their vaccine position when you’re conflating measles deaths from a completely different vaccine situation in another country and saying “see?! That’s why YOU and YOUR family choices are deadly”.

 

That’s just offensive and bad argumentation based on a faulty premise, and I’m someone who actually vaccinates my children and is in favor of it.  Sheesh.

I don't understand why the Samoan case is not relevant? It's a tragic reminder that measles can be fatal, it's not just a mild childhood illness as anti-vaxxers claim, and it's a very clear illustration of what happens to the most vulnerable people (in this case, infants) when herd immunity is lost.

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17 hours ago, shinyhappypeople said:

I know a lot of "anti-vaxxers," so it makes me sad to see them thrown under the bus anytime an outbreak happens (my kids are vaxxed, fwiw).  A more typical anti-vaxx sentiment revolves around the issue of true informed consent (understanding the risks and benefits of the vaccine(s) as well as the actual risks of the illness, coupled with the ability to decline, delay, or selectively vaccinate.  Regardless, blaming them for the outbreak makes no sense.  

I also know a fair number of anti-vax people. My friends that are anti-vaxxers mostly post social media stories from dubious sources about dead babies that, when investigated, are probably not dead because of vaccines. They post about aborted fetal cells, bad "chemicals", and the conspiracy of big pharma to poison us all for profit. I don't engage, but I would hardly say your characterization is typical. In fact, most of them posted about autism until that was definitely debunked and then the dead baby stories started popping up.

I agree there is a reasonable argument to be mad about informed consent, but that is not the bulk of the posts I see from anti-vaxxers -- those who think vaccines are actually bad for you.

But having a newborn myself, I think, yeah, those who would actively work to decrease herd immunity against something like pertussis? I think they are absolutely to blame for increased outbreaks that endanger the most vulnerable of the population.

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What is the science that says our vaccine schedule is a problem? I would be interested to read the research on that.

ETA: I know of no pro vax person or organization that says there is no risk to vaccines. That is a straw man. The CDC says most people should be vaccinated. They are about as provax as you can get, but even the publish a list of possible side effects and  guidelines for people who shouldn't be vaccinated. No one advocates for vaccinating without discernment. In fact, most pro vax people are so vehement *because of* the people in the population whom they know cannot be vaccinated.

Edited by EmseB
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1 hour ago, gardenmom5 said:

I have read WAY *too many* comments from antivaxxers on others site - they're not interested in learning, or delayed, etc. they think vaccines are evil. they "shout from the roof tops' that no one dies from measles.  or is affected in other ways.  the only way some of these people will be educated - is seeing the harm up close and personal.  THATS what I'm saying.

not blaming them for samoa - wanting to force some education.  we had an antivaxxe'd based outbreak here earlier this year.  our state laws regarding vaccination was changed as a result.  no more "philosophical" exemptions.  medical exemptions only.

this isn't about what caused the situation there - this is about the antivaxxers here, and in Europe (and other places) - who claim no harm has befallen a child who had measles.  some people only learn when they have to deal with this type of incident up close and personal.

 

I really don't think the Samoa example is the right one to lead with for the purpose of changing anti-vaxxers' minds.

1) The Samoa example has clear evidence of vaccine injury/death and corruption front and center.  You would be giving them an argument to use against you.

2) The death rate of this epidemic in Samoa is way higher than worldwide or US death rates, so there must be some additional factor contributing to these deaths.

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10 minutes ago, EmseB said:

I also know a fair number of anti-vax people. My friends that are anti-vaxxers mostly post social media stories from dubious sources about dead babies that, when investigated, are probably not dead because of vaccines. They post about aborted fetal cells, bad "chemicals", and the conspiracy of big pharma to poison us all for profit. I don't engage, but I would hardly say your characterization is typical. In fact, most of them posted about autism until that was definitely debunked and then the dead baby stories started popping up.

There is an organized campaign on the part of anti-vaxx groups to "recruit" parents of babies who died and convince them vaccines were to blame. When someone sees a post on FB or in a mom's group or whatever about someone losing a baby or toddler, they mobilize to provide sympathy and "support" and absolutely prey on the guilt that mothers often feel if their baby dies, especially of something like SIDS. And then they post those babies' "vaccine injury stories" on anti-vaxx websites. I posted an article a couple of months ago about a couple of moms who were targeted this way. One of the babies was found wedged face-down in the couch cushions after the mother fell asleep smoking weed. Anti-vaxxers convinced her the death was really caused by a vaccine the baby had received weeks earlier. 🤬

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3 minutes ago, SKL said:

I really don't think the Samoa example is the right one to lead with for the purpose of changing anti-vaxxers' minds.

1) The Samoa example has clear evidence of vaccine injury/death and corruption front and center.  You would be giving them an argument to use against you.

2) The death rate of this epidemic in Samoa is way higher than worldwide or US death rates, so there must be some additional factor contributing to these deaths.

The point is that it wasn't the vaccine that killed those kids. Anti-vaxxers say that vaccines kill kids. This doesn't further their argument. Any kid going in for any medical procedure would die if they were injected with expired anaesthesia. That doesn't discount the necessity of whatever that procedure happens to be.

Can you point me to a link for #2 that says there "must be" some other factor or is that your own conclusion?

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3 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

There is an organized campaign on the part of anti-vaxx groups to "recruit" parents of babies who died and convince them vaccines were to blame. When someone sees a post on FB or in a mom's group or whatever about someone losing a baby or toddler, they mobilize to provide sympathy and "support" and absolutely prey on the guilt that mothers often feel if their baby dies, especially of something like SIDS. And then they post those babies' "vaccine injury stories" on anti-vaxx websites. I posted an article a couple of months ago about a couple of moms who were targeted this way. One of the babies was found wedged face-down in the couch cushions after the mother fell asleep smoking weed. Anti-vaxxers convinced her the death was really caused by a vaccine the baby had received weeks earlier. 🤬

Yes, and a lot of this is, at it's root, motivated by money-chasing lawyers.

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18 minutes ago, SKL said:

I really don't think the Samoa example is the right one to lead with for the purpose of changing anti-vaxxers' minds.

1) The Samoa example has clear evidence of vaccine injury/death and corruption front and center.  You would be giving them an argument to use against you.

2) The death rate of this epidemic in Samoa is way higher than worldwide or US death rates, so there must be some additional factor contributing to these deaths.

***the point is***

antivaxxers say measles DOESN'T "kill" kids. (or harm them.)  so a bunch of dead babies and children who died because they contracted measles, definitely blows their whole party line crap.

 

eta: the reason it is "higher" is because they're down to a 30% vaccination rate - so, proportionally, that's a whole lotta kids that haven't been vaccinated.

schools have been closed, kids are banned from public (with the goal of limiting exposure to children), etc.

Edited by gardenmom5
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1 hour ago, SKL said:

The death rate per case in the Samoa situation is very high compared to modern measles death rates.  I wonder why that would be.

I'm wondering the same thing.  Is it a more virulent strain?  Do they not have access to the same level of medical care as we do?  Measles can be an incredibly serious illness... but that's rare.  Why is this particular outbreak so deadly?

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6 minutes ago, shinyhappypeople said:

I'm wondering the same thing.  Is it a more virulent strain?  Do they not have access to the same level of medical care as we do?  Measles can be an incredibly serious illness... but that's rare.  Why is this particular outbreak so deadly?

most places where there have been outbreaks - is a subgroup of unvaccinated children in a wider population that has been vaccinated.  in Samoa - even 10 years ago their vaccination rate was only 70% (which is still much lower than many other places.).  now it's down to 30%.  that leaves a lot of unvaccinated children, and there is more exposure.  with herd immunity down, it weakens the  defenses.

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6 minutes ago, SKL said:

I really don't think the Samoa example is the right one to lead with for the purpose of changing anti-vaxxers' minds.

1) The Samoa example has clear evidence of vaccine injury/death and corruption front and center.  You would be giving them an argument to use against you.

2) The death rate of this epidemic in Samoa is way higher than worldwide or US death rates, so there must be some additional factor contributing to these deaths.

1) The two babies who died after being injected with anesthetic were not injured by vaccines, they were victims of criminal medical malpractice — no different from thousands of other cases where someone gets the wrong medicine or wrong dose of something. 

2) One of the biggest differences is that half of the Samoan children who died were under 12 months old. The reason the CDC recommends waiting until 12 months for MMR is because infants get some immunity from their (vaccinated) mothers, and the maternally-inherited immunity prevents the vaccine from being fully effective. If the vaccination rate in Samoan mothers is also low, then many of those infants would not have had the protection that most American babies do, plus far more babies would have been exposed due to much lower herd immunity. In the US, measles outbreaks are often in populations with a low percentage of infants (like college students), and you would expect a much lower death rate among healthy 18-22 year olds compared to infants. 

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1 hour ago, gardenmom5 said:

 

***the point is***

antivaxxers say measles DOESN'T "kill" kids. (or harm them.)  so a bunch of dead babies and children who died because they contracted measles, definitely blows their whole party line crap.

 

eta: the reason it is "higher" is because they're down to a 30% vaccination rate - so, proportionally, that's a whole lotta kids that haven't been vaccinated.

schools have been closed, kids are banned from public (with the goal of limiting exposure to children), etc.

The rate of death as a % of measles infections is way higher.  Exponentially higher.  It has nothing to do with vax rate.

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2 hours ago, StaceyinLA said:

 

Our vaccine schedule IS a problem - period. I don't think all vaccines are evil, but I think ignoring risks and not allowing people to make educated, informed choices for their families is just as irresponsible. People need to be able to weigh risk vs benefit for their own families. 

For people to claim no harm has ever befallen a child because of a vaccine is no less irresponsible than people claiming no harm comes from measles. Vaccine injuries are real, and the children/families affected aren't lesser than those whose children were lost/affected from diseases. Unfortunately, neither situation (fully vaccinating everyone NOR not vaccinating anyone), will eliminate all death.

 

Who is claiming the bolded?

Not the CDC. Not vaccine manufacturers. Not any vaccination campaign or pro vaccine person I have ever heard.

Total straw man argument.

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10 minutes ago, SKL said:

The rate of death as a % of measles infections is way higher.  Exponentially higher.  It has nothing to do with vax rate.

They have a much higher birth rate and a much higher rate of infants who are exposed, combined with lack of herd immunity and a lower percentage of vaccinated mothers passing on immunity.

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2 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

They have a much higher birth rate and a much higher rate of infants who are exposed, combined with lack of herd immunity and a lower percentage of vaccinated mothers passing on immunity.

Even in the 1950s, the US measles death rate was 0.1% of cases vs. 1% of the reported infections in Samoa (assuming the news article has the numbers right).

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1 hour ago, gardenmom5 said:

 

***the point is***

antivaxxers say measles DOESN'T "kill" kids. (or harm them.)  so a bunch of dead babies and children who died because they contracted measles, definitely blows their whole party line crap.

 

eta: the reason it is "higher" is because they're down to a 30% vaccination rate - so, proportionally, that's a whole lotta kids that haven't been vaccinated.

schools have been closed, kids are banned from public (with the goal of limiting exposure to children), etc.

No, they don't say that. They say that statistically, a child who gets measles isn't likely to die. If you want to change minds on this you have to at least be honest. (I'm not against vaccinations in most instances.)

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How come nobody is viewing this as an example of why it is so important to earn the public's trust when it comes to health management?

The vax rate went down because the public trust was lost.

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I think the Samoan example is probably only somewhat helpful in a western country.  It does show that when vaccination rates are low, the disease will spread and kill.

However t is also a country where health outcomes aren't comparable to ours in other ways. Measles is a lot more deadly if you don't have good health already or if you don't get care once infected.  Someone could plausibly point out that a measles outbreak here might well have fewer cases, fewer deaths, and fewer serious complications.

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19 hours ago, EmseB said:

What is the science that says our vaccine schedule is a problem? I would be interested to read the research on that.

ETA: I know of no pro vax person or organization that says there is no risk to vaccines. That is a straw man. The CDC says most people should be vaccinated. They are about as provax as you can get, but even the publish a list of possible side effects and  guidelines for people who shouldn't be vaccinated. No one advocates for vaccinating without discernment. In fact, most pro vax people are so vehement *because of* the people in the population whom they know cannot be vaccinated.


Yes, the CDC does publish that information, and many people ignore it. The vaccine inserts also have a lot of detail regarding who should/shouldn’t be receiving vaccines, side effects, ingredients, etc., but you have to fight at a doctor’s office to read one. Most people I know believe the vaccine insert is the piece of paper the doctor’s office hands out.

You cannot say that no one is advocating for vaccines without discernment when states are removing even medical exemptions, even for those vaccinating a child who had a previous child with a vaccine injury or death. 

Our vaccine schedule, and even our individual vaccines, have never been through typical scientific testing. The flu pertussis inserts specifically state they have not been tested in pregnant women, yet pregnant women are pushed to get these vaccines. There is evidence that flu vaccine in the year or two prior to pregnancy, and during pregnancy, causes a huge increase in miscarriage. How often have you seen that in print?

Also, pertussis vaccinated adults can carry pertussis asymptomatically and spread it to newborns. This information was in an FDA study, not a mommy blog. How often have you seen that warning in print?

The issue is pushing vaccines at all costs to everyone like there is no reason to question. That is a huge problem.

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19 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

 

***the point is***

antivaxxers say measles DOESN'T "kill" kids. (or harm them.)  so a bunch of dead babies and children who died because they contracted measles, definitely blows their whole party line crap.

 

eta: the reason it is "higher" is because they're down to a 30% vaccination rate - so, proportionally, that's a whole lotta kids that haven't been vaccinated.

schools have been closed, kids are banned from public (with the goal of limiting exposure to children), etc.


^

17 hours ago, maize said:

 

Who is claiming the bolded?

Not the CDC. Not vaccine manufacturers. Not any vaccination campaign or pro vaccine person I have ever heard.

Total straw man argument.


My comment in question was in response to the above claim that anti-vaxxers believe no kids die from measles. And its true. It’s no more irresponsible for them to believe that (even though I don’t think that’s necessarily the case), then for someone to believe kids are never vaccine injured.

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This is the information from the CDC site about deaths from measles in the US. There was a single death in 2015. All those outbreaks we read/heard about in the news over the last couple years  - not a single death.
 

Also attached is the list of side effects from the Merck MMR insert. Perhaps people just want to be able to weigh the risks for their own families. (FWIW, 3 of my 4 kids had MMR, though not until they were 4-5). Also sorry - looks like my adverse reactions pages are backwards. Last page posted first.

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Edited by StaceyinLA
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2 hours ago, StaceyinLA said:


^


My comment in question was in response to the above claim that anti-vaxxers believe no kids die from measles. And its true. It’s no more irresponsible for them to believe that (even though I don’t think that’s necessarily the case), then for someone to believe kids are never vaccine injured.

No one believes vaccines are risk free. At least not any medical professional I've ever encountered including those who develop vaccines. In my state, the only exemptions people are looking to get rid of are religious or philosophical, because people are reading anti-vax pseudo science and/or talking points like "vaccines haven't been tested on pregnant women" and totally misinterpret what that means medically or scientifically about their safety or how they are being "pushed". The motivation my drs have had for pushing vaccines has been that my kids (infants) don't get sick with vpds.

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I don't get the "measles don't kill people in the U.S. therefore...." argument. Given the rate of world-wide travel, what we do (or don't do in this country) can have catastrophic effects on people in developing countries.

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20 hours ago, SKL said:

How come nobody is viewing this as an example of why it is so important to earn the public's trust when it comes to health management?

The vax rate went down because the public trust was lost.

 

Yes. I still don't see why that absolves individuals from their responsibility to make their own choices.

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3 minutes ago, Happy2BaMom said:

I don't get the "measles don't kill people in the U.S. therefore...." argument. Given the rate of world-wide travel, what we do (or don't do in this country) can have catastrophic effects on people in developing countries.

This is a fantastic argument.

No one I know hasn’t heard about the devastating effects European diseases had on the Native American population. And most normal people are saddened by it.

This is the same thing. 

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6 minutes ago, Happy2BaMom said:

 

Yes. I still don't see why that absolves individuals from their responsibility to make their own choices.

We don't know what information they had though.  We also don't know how much accessibility they had to the vaxes.

And again, I don't believe people were wrong to not vaccinate infants against measles.  It is considered sound practice, especially when you have no reason to expect your child to be exposed.

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Anti-vaxxers don't believe that measles is harmless. Anti-vaxxers understand that measles typcially is mild, but when you throw in other factors like poverty, poor nutrition, poor sanitation, lack of access to medical care, etc that it can be deadly and the complication rate is much higher.

It's absolutely awful that people in Samoa are dying of measles. But it's not just because they aren't vaccinated. 

From what I have read, they are asking people to turn in neighbors who are not vaccinated or who are encouraging others not to vaccinate. I find that really disturbing. I understand that the 2 babies that died from the MMR died because of human error and malpractice, but there absolutely needs to be true informed consent when it comes to medical procedures, including vaccines. People ought to have the right to refuse, regardless of whether you think their reasons are stupid.

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22 hours ago, maize said:

 

Who is claiming the bolded?

Not the CDC. Not vaccine manufacturers. Not any vaccination campaign or pro vaccine person I have ever heard.

Total straw man argument.

Oh I hear people say it's "one in a million" and so rare that obviously the benefits outweigh the risks. But the reason there is an "anti-vaccine" movement is because countless mothers have watched their children get sicker and sicker after each round of vaccines, only to be told by medical professionals that it's coincidence or that their injuries are "normal." Mothers who know what have happened to their children are tired of being gas lighted by others who think that vaccines couldn't possibly be the reason behind their children's health problems, even when they are listed as possible adverse reactions in the vaccine inserts. 

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32 minutes ago, SKL said:

We don't know what information they had though.  We also don't know how much accessibility they had to the vaxes.

And again, I don't believe people were wrong to not vaccinate infants against measles.  It is considered sound practice, especially when you have no reason to expect your child to be exposed.

Right. Tiny infants don't get the MMR. That's why it's important for the rest of the population who can be vaxxed do so, because if the rest of the population has a low vax rate, you can absolutely expect your infant will be exposed.

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