Neurodevelopmental Programs

[6Acorns]

My 9yo dd shows signs of severe dyslexia (reading on a K level), has been diagnosed with Developmental Language Disorder, and has lots of indications of disorganized executive functioning etc. (example--incapable of army crawl, short term memory will not allow her to hold info. in her brain long enough to spell 4 or 5 letter word), also dealing with anxiety and behavior issues--probably due to constant frustration.

We are pursuing Ortaon-Gillingham based instruction (We use Logic of English). Also, Music Therapy is helping considerably.  She has a Math tutor who uses Ronit Bird materials as well as MUS, and she is making excruciatingly slow, but steady, progress.

I am looking to add neurodevelopmental training to the mix. (Jan Bedell or Diane Craft). I know it will take more than just ND, but I think it might give her a boost.

So here's my question. Do any of you have experience with this type program working any better than say a quality sports program? Seems to me that roller skating, swimming, even running would hit a lot of the same re-wiring as a ND, but be cheaper and a lot more fun.  

I know I have oversimplified all aspects of this situation by putting it in this brief post, but maybe some of you have insights?

Thank you

Marcy in NC

[Lecka]

Is she coordinated enough to be successful in a mainstream sports program?  Would she do the sports (or whatever) in a pretty correct and smooth way?  Is the instructor patient and kind?  Is it enjoyable?  Does she do well?

Then I do think a mainstream program would be great. 
 

Swimming is a lot more complex than running.  It requires more coordination.
 

Some of the “specialty” programs would target more/different than some of the regular exercises.  Other regular exercises would target more than a specialty program.  
 

To some extent — kids doing the special programs are not able to do some regular exercises really accurately, smoothly, quickly etc, so they are not necessarily great options.

There are other reasons that activities go well or poorly — anything that goes well is good 🙂. 

[Lecka]

Just frex — incapable of army crawl may mean swimming will also be hard?  I mean it does just depend, but that is the kind of thing that can be going on.  

[Lecka]

Definitely there are people who choose sport and music activities with this in mind!!!!!!!!!  But it will be what seems like a good fit 🙂

Art, music, dance, etc can all be good this way.  

Edited November 22, 2019 by Lecka

[Lecka]

Just another thought — sometimes if an activity is hitting weak areas, kids do not enjoy it or may be embarrassed.  That can be another thing going on, if some things are just hard and demoralizing, which can be an issue, and looking for the right teacher or class, the right activity, making it fun, etc, can help.

And then too sometimes if things are hard this way, doing the programs or OT or whatever help kids get to where they can participate and have a good experience.  

[Lecka]

Starting kids with private lessons is also something people do sometimes.  

[Lecka]

Basically — if let’s say someone has signed up a child for a high-quality basketball program, and in the whole time, the child gets to where they can dribble left-to-right 3 times in a row, but all the other kids are running back and forth dribbling left-to-right, well, a lot of kids are not going to have an awesome time and want to keep doing basketball, even if the coach is very patient and everyone is very nice.  
 

Or similar with high-quality swim lessons, if a child just cannot do the things worked on properly in the time of progress and amount of help allotted in the class.  
 

Or can only do half the soccer drills properly, and even then, 1,000 times slower than the other children.  
 

That is the kind of thing where people are maybe looking more at the OT types of programs.  
 

Or maybe some activities go great, but here and there are some activities that are very difficult.  
 

Then separately some kids are good anyway, but doing the exercises can help them focus and be done quickly and indoors, or used as a brain break, etc.  That is a thing, too, where it is not as either/or.  

[Lecka]

Other options are looking for adapted classes or looking for a class where the child is one of the older kids.  

[Lecka]

I think there are different goals.

One kind of goal is looking for a positive experience, looking for a long-term activity, a social opportunity, etc.

Another kind of goal is — if the child is good at something or really likes something.

Another kind of goal is — wanting time improve some skills the child is bad at, but in a fun way.  Well — it can go either way for if the child will like it or not, do well or not, etc.  If it works out, that’s great, but there are no guarantees that it won’t be a negative experience, too hard, too frustrating, teacher and other children frustrated about going too slowly or not knowing what directions to follow, etc.  

[Lecka]

I have been told it’s really wonderful and beneficial when kids don’t mind having a harder time or being worse, and will still participate, that it is very beneficial.  But a lot of kids will not be eager when that is the case.  So I do think — anything is good that kids will do willingly.  
 

I was told this about gymnastics for one of my kids, and then the next year it got harder and he was struggling the most and it quit being a good fit for him, and I could have looked for an adapted class or putting him in with younger kids, but he didn’t like it “that” much.  Some kids also would re-take the beginning level class for multiple sessions and not move up, which is what we did and it worked well while it worked, and then they kind-of ran out of beginner kids and the skill level just went up.  We are in a really limited location right now though, and it was very good while we did do it.  
 

He has done adapted yoga too and it was still hard but it was also good.  He was not a huge fan at the time.  I think he would like it more now, but we moved and it’s not available here.  

[PeterPan]

3 hours ago, 6Acorns said:

has been diagnosed with Developmental Language Disorder,

Is she getting SLP services for the DLD? If she is not, you could end up with her hyperlexic or having severe comprehension issues. Your OG/RB tutor, as fabulous as she obviously is, is not an SLP. You're going to need a team approach for this. Now I say that, and maybe the tutor is going to hit the language issues. But no, that would not be normal and you would not want to leave it to chance. She needs an SLP who specializes in expressive language because she needs work on vocabulary (which means way more than do I know words), syntax, narrative language, etc. Her reading comprehension and writing will be dramatically affected if you do not. That's what bit us, so that's your heads up, your warning.

3 hours ago, 6Acorns said:

We are pursuing Ortaon-Gillingham based instruction (We use Logic of English)

LOE is not OG. So that for one is just wrong. You want to give her the Barton screening test, and odds are she'll fail. WHY did your tutor tell you LOE is OG????????? The LOE chick was trained by Sanseri, author of Spell to Write and Read (a spinoff of WRTR which of course is your OG streamlined for non-disability children), and she wrote her own take on things. NOT Orton-Gillingham and probably has no data behind it for dyslexia. I'm not saying it's bad, because it's fine. Just saying whoever told you it was OG is stretching things. 

https://bartonreading.com/students/#ss  Here's the screening tool. You can do the parent version yourself and then administer the student version to your dc. Given what you've described, you really want that data to know whether she'd pass. It's free, easy to administer, and basically a screener to see whether she has the foundational skills to succeed at ANY OG program.

3 hours ago, 6Acorns said:

incapable of army crawl,

So you're looking at retained primitive reflexes and issues with bilateral brain function. Those are OT issues, and you can put the terms to them and decide who you want to treat them. Dianne Craft's stuff is fine. I met her at an event and she's wonderful. I have no doubt her stuff is fine. But would you do *better* to work with an OT? You might learn things you don't know. I agree with you that it's important you get reflexes integrated SOMEHOW. You can also look at videos from Pyramid of Potential, find an OT or PT, whatever. For the bilateral issues, yes you're going to need body work.

So I don't know if you know this, but when you get retained reflexes, some kids will have a noticeable language jump. NOT enough to eliminate your DLD. Definitely not. But you'll be glad you got the reflexes integrated, and it tells you how you could *prioritize*. So just me, but I would spend the next 1-2 months booking it on retained reflexes (by whatever means you decide) and use that time to find a good SLP. It can take a while to call around, put your ear to the ground, get qualified with your insurance, all that mess. Might take you a few tries. 

There are SLPs who specialize in literacy who will have the extra language tests you might not have had run, like narrative language, and they'll know how to do that language intervention. If you work on decoding (by whatever means), and you DON'T work on the language, you won't be happy.

So yes, work on the body *while* you find the SLP to do the language work.

3 hours ago, 6Acorns said:

Do any of you have experience with this type program working any better than say a quality sports program? Seems to me that roller skating, swimming, even running would hit a lot of the same re-wiring as a ND, but be cheaper and a lot more fun.  

So my ds did team/competitive gymnastics, swim team and every level of lessons at the Y before team, and I forget what all. He was just constantly active and obviously very hyper. His reflexes were not integrated. After several OT flops we were referred to a PT. Two months of that and the hyperactivity was gone, the reflexes integrated, and he had a language bump. Maybe it was 3 total.

Now my ds still has a language delay, yes. Integrating reflexes doesn't make that go away. But no, sports will not be a substitute for targeted therapies. And in fact, for my ds, excessive sport was actually more motor planning than he could handle. The gymnastics were hard, so he was learning that AND trying to read AND working on his speech, and and. He actually did better when we dropped some things.

It's evidence-based to be in sports, sure. Good for social, good for everything. But you may have to find some balance. 

We're not talking forever. You get the right exercises and get your dc able to tolerate them, and usually the reflexes are going to begin to integrate noticeably within a month. Ours were pretty gone at 2 months, and we continued a few months longer just as maintenance and to be sure.

3 hours ago, 6Acorns said:

dealing with anxiety and behavior issues

Having btdt, I'm WAY more concerned about this than anything else in your list. It only takes a round of BalavisX to fix the bilateral stuff, no big deal. Another 2 months for the reflexes, no big deal. Even the OG, once you actually get it (which you aren't), will be a couple years and boom, no big deal.

But that anxiety and those behaviors are going to be FOREVER. I'm not meaning to discourage you, but just saying that's where the money is. Anxiety is chemical, in the brain, neurological. And given that you said she's having behaviors, I'll suggest you're seeing the convergence of her language disability and her body. And so if you buy some nice $100 packet off the internet and you DON'T GET EVALS in person with an OT, what are you missing? You're missing the chance to find the physical explanations for the behavior. You're missing the chance to learn some really good self-regulation programs that would help with that anxiety and behavior. You're not finding out what else is going on. You're not getting the referrals for more evals for ASD, etc. that happen as people see things. 

So whatever, we're flooding you. You've got a pretty serious mix, and you don't want to waste time or turn down help. You're going to have enough long-term challenges here with the SLD reading, the DLD, and the anxiety, that you need to be assembling a team of professionals committed for the longterm, people who are going to see the things you aren't seeing yet. The $100 packets won't give you that. It's not that they're not good, but you're going to need more.

Keep asking questions. Hang here. 

[PeterPan]

nt

Edited November 23, 2019 by PeterPan

[kbutton]

14 hours ago, PeterPan said:

LOE is not OG. So that for one is just wrong.

She might mean that they are using LOE but will be changing to an OG program.

I agree that whatever you use, you need to look at expressive language, narrative language, etc. When I read about DLD, it was such a broad term that I am not sure it gives parents a place to look for more targeted information. Without that, you could be playing whack-a-mole for years.

It's okay to prioritize therapies vs. doing all of them at once, but it makes sense to get some more evals for OT/PT and maybe more specific aspects of language (if needed).

My kids struggled with sports things because of the reflexes and issues crossing midline, etc. One will always have some issues due to a connective tissue disorder, and the other kiddo had his reflex issues turn up as convergence problems with his eyes--vision therapy was life-changing for him. My CTD kid had VT too, and it was also really helpful too since they did reflex work, and it helped with some of the visual symptoms too (though some of that is part of his specific CTD and will not improve with therapy).

[6Acorns]

"She needs an SLP who specializes in expressive language"

Yes, this is absolutely true. However, believe it or not, there is no such thing in my area. I could drive one hour+ both ways (and I have done this in the past with some of my older kids), but I felt the return on investment was minimal considering 40 min. of therapy per week at the sacrifice of pretty much a whole school day for my family of 6 kids. How? How can I make this happen? very discouraging

"WHY did your tutor tell you LOE is OG?"

Clarification: we do not have a LOE tutor. I am doing that with her myself. That choice of curriculum was based on much trial and error and does seem to be a good one. LOE promotes itself as OG and other Dyslexia sites rocognize it as such. Why do you not classifiy it as such? https://homeschoolingwithdyslexia.com/comparison-orton-gillingham-reading-programs/

 

Sorry I didn't know how to do the "quote" thingy.

Marcy in NC

[PeterPan]

48 minutes ago, 6Acorns said:

Sorry I didn't know how to do the "quote" thingy.

Use your cursor to highlight the text, and a little quote option button will appear.

48 minutes ago, 6Acorns said:

Why do you not classifiy it as such?

The question is not what I think, only whether it's working. Here's the student screening for Barton. You mentioned her working memory is poor, and that should be going up if she's getting strong intervention, simply because OG requires significant working memory.  Yes, I've seen that site and that's one person's opinions. All that matters is whether it's working. She recommends all kinds of things that haven't worked for people, so opinions are just opinions. Look at the data, see if it's working. So here's that screening tool. Only takes about 10 minutes to administer https://bartonreading.com/students/#ss

48 minutes ago, 6Acorns said:

How can I make this happen?

 NOW you're asking the right question. I was just waiting for you to ask. We've had whole threads on it. Even if you had tons of funding and availability, you still might prefer to do a lot of the work yourself, and you can, yes. But let's back up. Who diagnosed the DLD and what tests did they run? You want to look through your paper trail, see what has been run. That's going to tell us a lot, because then you know what hasn't been run and also a sense of maybe where she's at. The CELF has issues with (I forget if it's sensitivity or specificity), so it UNDER IDENTIFIES children with language disabilities. Usually they have to run more tests to find the issues, especially in kids with higher IQs. So for instance my ds had massive amounts of memorized language and could bluff out the CELF (which provides models and uses extensive multiple choice), but totally bombed the SPELT, a structured photographic language test with no models and no multiple choice. So you're wanting to know what tests, whether narrative language testing was done, whether something like the Vineland or the VMPAC or another test of her overall skills was done. See what's listed.

Then you kind of wrap your brain around the way intervention and therapy services work. After the kids enter school, the ps system is doing most of it. At that point what they'll say is that they do therapy to help the kids access their education, that kids do not come to school to get therapy. I heard that used yesterday by an IEP team. It's a really subtle distinction. It means in a medical model, we're asking what could be done, what the breadth of the issues are, and in the ps/educational model of intervention they're asking what they have to target so the dc can access their education, participate, do the task.

This means that really, once your dc is 5+, the therapy system isn't very well set up to answer what COULD be done. They're skewed toward what you can afford or what has to be done to survive.

So then as a parent you back up and ask yourself how thorough you want to be, what you're trying to do. Me, I have 20 years with this kid. I'm gonna be patient. I'm in for the long haul and I'm thinking about every goal and foundations and how to get this done. I look ahead and see some consistent complaints (reading comprehension walls where kids hit a wall and don't continue to progress, that kind of thing), and I go ok what caused that wall? 

Ps intervention won't do that and very seldom will private. IF you found an SLP specializing in literacy and they were only 1 hour away, I would do it. I would do it because it would shorten your learning curve and help your dc make better progress. You could team with her and learn how to make YOUR time more effective.

I drive 2-3 hours each way for some therapies and regularly 40+ minutes, so I guess I'm not the one to ask. My rule of thumb is that way they do has to be BETTER than if I worked on it that amount of time (including the driving) at home. So if I go to someone and they're gold and they're doing things I wouldn't do well, no matter how hard I tried and how much I bought or learned, then that's worth it. Or if they're just THAT MUCH better at it than I am. But sometimes, sure I say you know they'd be better but not 3X better. If I have him every day and I work on it 30 minutes, I'll probably get to about the same place (or better) and I won't have lost so much time to driving, transitions, stress, traffic, etc. That's how I decide.

48 minutes ago, 6Acorns said:

40 min. of therapy per week at the sacrifice of pretty much a whole school day for my family of 6 kids.

So is the Ronit Bird tutor closer? I'm surprised you're driving for that, since RB is easy and joyful to implement yourself. But it's all good if they're clicking and it's convenient.

Do any of the siblings have disabilities or challenges? It's another thing to factor in, where learning a method can give you a lot of bang for buck, letting you apply it on some level to all the kids. For instance, if you learn about narrative language, that's something that will apply to ALL the kids, irrespective of whether they have language based disabilities. If some are having trouble spelling or a little crunchy, then any effort you make on the learning to read front will probably help you with them too.

Even with only one dc at home, I still cannot waste time driving from therapist to therapist. A lot of it I've had to do myself. You kind of jumped in the deep end here, coming to the boards with your first post with a doozey of a question. So tell us, are the other children younger or are you being spread over a lot of grades? Just trying to get a mental picture here, so we can suggest things that actually can work or feel practical. 

I go back to this, but I made the suggestion that you work on integrating primitive/neonatal reflexes while you learn about the language stuff. The interventions for language are more involved, you're going to need time to sort out what you need and make a plan, and you probably won't actually begin that till january, even if you start now. The holidays are coming up, so you won't start that. But if you made a move TODAY and did the tests for retained primitive reflexes (youtube or buy the Pyramid of Potential video or...), then with that 6 weeks of exercises you'd be in a very different place. You can literally just do them 10 minutes at a time, 1-3X a day, whatever you can get done. You could get that done, even with the holidays. And then in January that will be in a better place and you'll be ready to make a move on language.

Edited November 23, 2019 by PeterPan

[PeterPan]

Just as a starting point, you might look at https://www.superduperinc.com/products/view.aspx?pid=TPX27704&s=the-grammar-processing-program  It hits a lot of the things covered in the CELF. If the samples look like they would give her a run for her money, then there you go, an easy place to start working on language while you learn more. You could do that and the exercises for the retained reflexes and have some progress by January. There's a lot more to do, but it's a straightforward place to start. 

That link is at Super Duper, and they sell a ton of great stuff with that fun factor you were looking for. Linguisystems looks more dry, but it's more in the weeds for heavy lifting on intervention. I use a lot of Linguisystems stuff with my ds. I LOVE the SPARC series https://www.linguisystems.com/Products/31159/sparc-for-attributes.aspx  

I used resources like that to flesh out use of this E4Thai › images › pdf2 › 100_vocabulary_primaryPrimary - E4Thai  as a spine, fleshing out each chapter with workbooks from Linguisystems, games like Pickles to Penguins, etc.. This is where you start to get more in the weeds. How old is the student? And what testing was done? It might not be her right starting point, so you have to look at the testing. 

Narrative language is what this is all building up to, and the most accessible resource to learn about this is the kits from Story Grammar Marker. Depending on the age, you could go with Braidy or move up to the autism kit. Given the complexity of what you're describing, you may end up wanting the autism kit. It's going to do a good job of exploring the feelings and social thinking components and it will have charts that show each component of language needed to move to the next step of narrative language.

https://mindwingconcepts.com/pages/methodology  Here is the overview with charts.

So you see why you might not be ready to begin language work for a while, hehe. It takes a while to wrap your brain around all that! And I agree, you CAN DO THIS. You just need the materials and you need the baseline testing to realize why you'd need to be addressing these areas.

There's also going to be some cool overlap. Like when you work on narrative, you realize they need feelings. Well that anxiety is a feeling and it's going to require her to verbalize her feelings, problem solve, and use her language to self-advocate. So then the fields and needs overlap, because you realize that hitting your OT goals (which you can also do if you're feeling spunky) actually feeds into the narrative language steps!!! 

So it's a little messy and kind of amazing at the same time, when you realize this. It means you can get overlap. You're going to be hitting writing, reading, the anxiety/self-awareness/emotional awareness, language disability, OT, everything with one book that you milk. Then you won't need so many providers. 

The biggest use of the providers for you is getting thorough testing, helping you realize things are issues that you haven't yet connected. Has she had an audiology eval? With as much as you've got going on, it might be something to put on the list. Hopefully nothing would pop up, but you've got a pretty extensive list there. The reflexes can cause some auditory processing issues and you can have things causing each other. It would just be something to check. Checking vision is also good. The OT eval I would want for screenings on sensory and if by chance the OT was really kicking butt with reflexes. But doing an OT eval doesn't mean you have to stay for therapy. They are the most tricky profession for me, the one I want to like and the one I most frequently drop. But to get a VMI=visual motor integration test and get a screening for sensory, sure those could be good and turn up some things. Then you could decide for yourself how to proceed and whether you'd just work on them at home. But that way you'd have the info. You could probably also get in for an OT eval pretty quickly, sure.

 

[PeterPan]

Pyramid of Potential is what the PT used with us. There are many systems to identify and integrate reflexes. We've had people do everything using youtube. http://www.pyramidofpotential.com/products-for-parents/

I'm NOT saying her $$$$ packet on dyslexia. I know nothing about that. I'm ONLY suggesting her videos on reflexes, which it looks like you can download for $20. The exercises worked for us. I'm not sure the list is conclusive, but it would be a start for only $20. 

You might run all your kids through the tests while you're at it. 

Edited November 23, 2019 by PeterPan

[6Acorns]

10 hours ago, PeterPan said:

We've had whole threads on it

If you could tag me to any of these, I would love to read them

 

10 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Who diagnosed the DLD and what tests did they run?

Boys town National Research Hospital (although, just for refernce, we don't live anywhere close to there--wish we did) Test of Narrative Language (TNL) Scored 82 which is below avaerage and indicates difficulty with Oral Narration and her narrative language Ability is below average.

 

10 hours ago, PeterPan said:

see what has been run. That's going to tell us a lot, because then you know what hasn't been run and also a sense of maybe where she's at.

East Carolina Universtiy--Woodcock Reading Mastery Test--Letter ID is below Average, Phonological Awaremenss is well below average

Test of Early Reading Ablility (TERA-4) Alphabet--impaired or delayed; Conventions--borderline impaired; Meaning-borderline impaired

Comprehensive Test of Spoken Language (CASL-2) General Language Ability Index--Average

Jordan Left-Right Reversal Test--Ability to identify reversals is in atypical range, may be indicativve of dyslexia

 

We recently complete ND screening with representative from Jan Bedell, but we don't have those results yet--but her dominance was very mixed and she could not army crwl for the screener

audiology testing has indicated no problems with hearing

10 hours ago, PeterPan said:

So is the Ronit Bird tutor closer? I'm surprised you're driving for that, since RB is easy and joyful to implement yourself. But it's all good if they're clicking and it's convenient.

Yes, she is very close and they have great chemistry--not messing with that one, lol

 

10 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Do any of the siblings have disabilities or challenges?

 

10 hours ago, PeterPan said:

So tell us, are the other children younger or are you being spread over a lot of grades?

6 kids

ds 21-ADHD, unilateral hearing loss, high IQ, lots of quirky behaviors, spent years trying to figure him out, still quirky but about to graduate college

ds 18-severe dyslexia, can barely spell his name, started reading in 3rd grade using AAS, still doesn't know multiplication facts, gifted singer, actor and dancer, prone to anxiety and depression, working on transfer credits at community college and auditioning for 4-year Musical Theater programs

Ds 13-adopted, possible FASD, intellectual disabilities, ODD

DD 11-adopted no disabilities, Praise the Lord!

dd 8-see above (also, born with traceal malacia, struggled with ear infections, reflux for years, speech therapy throughout pre-k)

ds6-left hand dominate, no signs of learning issues

10 hours ago, PeterPan said:

I go back to this, but I made the suggestion that you work on integrating primitive/neonatal reflexes

so is it worth the money to buy the package from Bedell (LittleGiant Steps)? I would still have to be the one to implement it, even after paying all that money

10 hours ago, PeterPan said:

The biggest use of the providers for you is getting thorough testing,

What is the best type of provider to test Executive Function?

10 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Checking vision is also good

Good idea, haven't done this yet. Just regular eye dr., or develpmental?

Thank you for all your resource reccommendations. You have given me lots to look at.

Marcy in NC

[PeterPan]

3 hours ago, 6Acorns said:

Comprehensive Test of Spoken Language (CASL-2) General Language Ability Index--Average

Do you think it's odd that they diagnosed DLD with *only* low scores on the TNL (which is good stuff) and no other language test? Her CASL scores were fine. So you know she has a narrative language issue, but you DON'T know if she has a more global language disability and issues with syntax, vocabulary, concepts, etc. etc. You would need the SPELT for that. 

3 hours ago, 6Acorns said:

Just regular eye dr., or develpmental?

Well just me, but I'd use a developmental and have them do a regular annual and *screen* for the developmental stuff. No more expensive but then you have the screening.

3 hours ago, 6Acorns said:

What is the best type of provider to test Executive Function?

That's an interesting thing to want. Why are you wanting more EF testing? Didn't they already run an EF tool to diagnose ADHD? There is an EF test that SLPs will run, yes. There's also the Test of Problem Solving. They could run pragmatics. What age is the dc? Did they run a writing test? 

So an EF tool from a psych is usually your packrat/secretary skills, self-regulation, that kind of thing. The SLP driven test is more nuanced, and Linguisystems sells a book for intervention. Your language issues are much more pressing, so you might think through what it is you're trying to address. 

3 hours ago, 6Acorns said:

We recently complete ND screening with representative from Jan Bedell, but we don't have those results yet--but her dominance was very mixed and she could not army crwl for the screener

Unfortunately, I'm not terribly polite on this topic. The LGS people came out to our state homeschool convention years ago, and they were dramatically underqualified, selling $$$ kits, dispensing outright incorrect information, and making grandiose claims. They have ZERO qualification/certification in any field so they've made up their own. Now I'm the first to say OTs are a crap shoot anyway. But this really is an area of unregulated claims. Nothing they're doing is particularly BAD, but they're not qualified to do anything WELL that they're doing. And there are proper certifications and qualifications for everything they're trying to do. So you've got one person doing many fields, many areas. It's something, and the stuff won't be bad. But by having someone who isn't an OT do bits of OT, you're missing the rest of what a good OT would have done. By having someone do bits of what a good IS (intervention specialist) or OG trained reading tutor or SLP would have done, again you're missing the rest of what that more fully trained person would have done.

Mixed dominance is a controversial thing. The practitioners I've used all said they would NOT attempt to alter dominance. Given the low qualifications of the person making this claim, you really might want to be cautious there. In fact, some of the practitioners we have used said they were most concerned if there were NOT a mixed dominance! And there are books theorizing patterns to strengths that come from various mixes of dominances.

Yes, we already said that clearly the dc has some retained reflexes, missed some developmental steps, and needs to do some OT and probably some VT (vision therapy) if she isn't crawling properly. My dd had that. But you don't need an $$$ kit for that. I had an inexpensive book I used to mention here that had a list of exercises I did with my ds. Maybe I can look it up for you tomorrow. It was really the bomb, and it would be a $15 alternative to the $$$$$$ LGS kit. 

School Moves › homeS'cool Moves, Inc.  Here it is. They have a simple digital book and you can screenshot to make posters. I put them in a notebook and we worked on a few at a time. Hit all those areas you're talking about. And yes, we did digit spans, RAN/RAS exercises, etc. I've shared the link for my dropbox with those, so if you want them I'll drag it out. You really don't need a $$$$$$$$ kit to do this.

I would work on the retained reflexes, get them out of the way, and then begin these other things in January. The more you work on the retained reflexes, the better. And that will put the body in a better position to do the other tasks, or the body might get the work done so she doesn't even NEED the other work. You never know. But it's just something to think about. The reflex work is foundational and will suck up all the time you have. So rather than spreading yourself thin, focus, get those integrated, then start on other stuff.

EF is going to be a long term thing. 

When you say you're having behaviors, what kind of behaviors?

3 hours ago, 6Acorns said:

dd 8-see above (also, born with traceal malacia, struggled with ear infections, reflux for years, speech therapy throughout pre-k)

is this the dc we're discussing? And did you do the Barton screening? I'm really interested to see if she passes or not.

You want to prioritize communication and emotional regulation. Emotional regulation is a subset of EF. So someone can say EF, but it's not all equally important to you right now. Communication will improve behavior, reading comprehension, and hit the narrative language issue. Reflexes are worth working on because integrating them will get you the language bump that helps communication. But beyond that, stay focused. If you're dealing with guilt or people implying if you had done an $$$ kit or done magic things, your older dc wouldn't have those struggles, that's poppycock. Interventions have improved, but working on digit spans, crawling, etc. will not make all your challenges go poof. They're a small part, a small phase, in what you need.

What was she in speech therapy for? Articulation or language or mutism or???

[PeterPan]

If you buy the LGS kit, does it preclude your ability to buy additional reading intervention materials, speech/language materials, narrative language materials, etc?

Unfortunately, that's the kind of triaging and balance you're going to have to be finding here. If you can substantively accomplish the goals with a $15 book and free downloads of ran/ras cards, you might end up better off putting that $$$ elsewhere. Unfortunately, you're now in a situation where EVERYTHING you're going to want to buy is going to cost in the hundreds. So if she fails the Barton screening and needs LIPS, that's $100. If she needs the narrative language kit, another $100. If you need to order materials for language (syntax, vocabulary, concepts), that will be $$$. If LOE is not enough and she needs Barton or something more powerful, that's $$$.

So you want to be cautious. There's nothing *bad* in the LGS kit, but it's not the ONLY stuff you need. 

Do not let them play on your fears and wishfulness for fixes. Army crawls will not fix ANY of the things you've listed. They're fine to do, they're good for the brain. They aren't going to solve a reading disability, expressive language problems, narrative language problems, vision problems (which they told me they would, stupidity and hogwash), anxiety, emotional regulation problems, difficulty with problem solving, etc. 

So be really straight with yourself about what you can afford and what needs to happen. There are no magic cures.

[6Acorns]

On 11/22/2019 at 7:45 PM, PeterPan said:

She needs an SLP who specializes in expressive language because she needs work on vocabulary (which means way more than do I know words), syntax, narrative language, etc. Her reading comprehension and writing will be dramatically affected if you do not. That's what bit us, so that's your heads up, your warning

Do you know specific programs that SLP uses to work on this? Does SGM cover this? Or the whole Autism package that you mentioned? Or something else. Just trying to be knowledgeable about what I want SLP to actually be doing. Or, what I might have to do myself if I can't find anyone close enough. Thanks

 

[PeterPan]

4 minutes ago, 6Acorns said:

Do you know specific programs that SLP uses to work on this? Does SGM cover this? Or the whole Autism package that you mentioned? Or something else. Just trying to be knowledgeable about what I want SLP to actually be doing. Or, what I might have to do myself if I can't find anyone close enough. Thanks

 

I had a whole thread on it. It's not a short question, lol. SGM is narrative language, and getting the ASD kit gets you some social thinking and basic language points woven in. Bu no if you are needing to work on expressive language (vocabulary, syntax, comprehension, etc.) then you're going to need more materials. 

It's not beyond you. Just take one step at a time because you're eating the elephant. If you find the SLP who has the tests, they may also have the materials to work on it. No one SLP knows everything, but sometimes they're willing to learn.

Sorry, at this point I'm losing the flow of the thread. Feel free to keep asking questions. Also try a google site search. It's terms plus site:welltrainedmind.com So like "PeterPan 100% vocabulary site:welltrainedmind.com " and see what pops up.

[PeterPan]

Also you can go through materials on Linguisystems/ProEdInc. Those terms like "vocabulary" will pop up specific programs if you put them in at Linguisystems. They're categories, terms the SLPs use. Vocabulary, concepts, etc. 

[PeterPan]

https://www.linguisystems.com/AdvancedSearch/DefaultWFilter.aspx?SearchTerm=vocabulary

http://www.e4thai.com/e4e/images/pdf2/100_vocabulary_primary.pdf

just to get you started. I used this 100% Vocabulary (Rothstein) pdf as a spine and fleshed it out with things from Linguisystems.

[6Acorns]

7 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

just to get you started.

Thank you very much 🙂

[kbutton]

3 hours ago, 6Acorns said:

Do you know specific programs that SLP uses to work on this? Does SGM cover this? Or the whole Autism package that you mentioned? Or something else. Just trying to be knowledgeable about what I want SLP to actually be doing. Or, what I might have to do myself if I can't find anyone close enough. Thanks

 

Story Grammar works on some bits and pieces, but it's still more of a big picture of how language develops from more concrete to more abstract.

My son actually has mostly narrative language deficits with his expressive language work--he doesn't need the grammar and syntax work that Peter Pan is describing. 

I highly recommend using SGM as sort of "where is this all going" thing, and use the other programs to see what is holding up the parts and pieces to move forward in the progression that the Mindwings/SGM materials envision happening, if that makes sense.

Some of the SGM materials have extensive graphic organizers showing the strands of narrative language and which parts and pieces of skills those threads draw from. I wish that Mindwings would show these graphic organizers in full on their website or have a downloadable .pdf for it--I have found those very valuable.

 

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, kbutton said:

a downloadable .pdf

They do, but it's the same price as buying the printed materials and having the pdf included.

[kbutton]

5 hours ago, PeterPan said:

They do, but it's the same price as buying the printed materials and having the pdf included.

I mean just the strands of narrative language mindmaps. They are in the front of Thememaker.