Life of Fred as a stand alone?

[hands-on-mama]

Is this really enough to use as your only math curriculum from Fractions on up? I have a child that wants to use Fred as her only curriculum, and I’m struggling to believe that it’s enough. It looks great, don’t get me wrong. I worry about it being enough practice. She is so into it though. She has used only that this week and absolutely loves it. If she was to use just it, we would definitely get the Zillions books. I’m just so torn and wanted opinions from others. 

[HomeAgain]

Nope.
Fred is heavier on procedure than it is on concept, but not very heavy on either, and it won't review very often, especially as you go through other books.  Ds is finishing the fraction book this week, but his schedule looks like this: 10-30 minutes on a concept from Gattegno, then a chapter from Fred (about 10 minutes).  That way he bounces between hands-on conceptual work and procedural but it's not an overwhelming amount of either.  We're just going into the Gattegno fractions & decimals book, so everything from Fred is being reviewed again in the first few exercises before they go deeper with Gattegno.  And since there are only 32 chapters (and the Bridges), Fred barely covers a semester doing it 3x a week.  He'll start the Decimals book after Christmas, but hold off on the 3 pre-algebra books until next year, probably, so that he does book 5 of Gattegno first and then reviews with Fred.

I would say if you really want to use Fred as a main, then pick something to back it up and work from a different point of view so that you make sure she's getting all the math and not missing items, even if it's just a weekly assessment with Prodigy.

[HomeAgain]

10 minutes ago, mshanson3121 said:

 

Are you using the Zillions book? Because that book is  filled with review questions, not just from the chapter taught, but from other books/chapters, so that every lesson the child is reviewing previously learned concepts. We're using it, and it's reviewing plenty of concepts from the previous books.

No, we're not, because even with the Zillions book it's not enough information.  It's just not.  Fred will teach how to divide fractions the short way but won't teach why it works or how to do it the long way and what dividing fractions actually means beyond a short sentence referencing a whole number divided up.  It's just not enough.  When I talk about review, I talk about not only practice, but refreshing the memory of why we do certain procedures to figure out an answer.  I don't want my kid to go through math like learning sight words.  It's going to get him only so far with that method.
Fred is good for fun and introduction to or practice with concepts.  I won't ever use it as a stand alone.
 

[....]

I have/used almost all the LOF books from Apples to Statistics, so here's my opinion.  At the Pre-algebra level and beyond, it is a complete curriculum for the type of learner that would use LOF.  None of my kids were able to understand/master fractions and decimals from the two books (LOF Fractions and LOF Decimals and Percents).  Out of all his books, I think the Fractions book is actually the worst.  Key to Fractions is a gazillion times better at teaching fractions.  

The high school series is HARD.  We were not able to finish the Statistics book and there were actually problems dd17 and I couldn't solve without looking at the answers.  We didn't use LOF exclusively (just exclusively for Statistics, but used the other books as a supplement to Saxon Algebra 1 and 2 and MUS Geometry).  When dd17 took her math placement test at the college, she tested into the highest math possible.  She tested right into College Statistics.  She said that she recognized a bunch of the questions on the test as the type of questions she'd worked through in the LOF book and the computer kept giving her a ton of statistics questions, so she must've been getting the statistics questions right (the college placement test was an adaptive test on a computer - if you answer a question right, the questions get harder until you can't answer them anymore).  She only has to take one math class for her Bachelor's degree (statistics - Lol).   

Anyway, sorry for rambling...so the short version of my story is I don't regret using LOF - I think it actually helped dd17 a lot, but we weren't able to use it below the pre-algebra level on its own.  I do think the high school series is fine on its own if you have a student who clicks with that kind of learning. 

[EKS]

 No, supplement only.  The Fractions book is possibly the worst math book I’ve ever used.  I have not used the algebra+ books.

Edited November 25, 2019 by EKS

[EKS]

25 minutes ago, square_25 said:

Now I’m curious, since I’ve never seen them: how does it earn this distinction??

One (huge) thing is that it is extremely algorithmic.  He literally says "just do it like this" rather than explain the concept behind it.  Here is an example of the instruction for multiplying fractions:  "It's much easier than adding fractions.  Just look at this example and you'll know how to do it.  5/8 x 3/7 = 15/56.  Hey! That's too easy.  You just multiply the top times top and bottom times bottom." 

That said, occasionally he does attempt to explain concepts.  An example is when he explains why multiplying by the reciprocal works when dividing by a fraction.  He uses the term "function" which he has previously defined as "any fixed, unchanging rule" and "inverse function" which he defines as the "opposite of a function."  After stating "to divide by a fraction, just multiply by its reciprocal," he goes into this long thing about the reason you multiply by the reciprocal is that it is the "inverse function to multiplying" and to prove it he gives an example about how multiplying by 3/2 "undoes" multiplication by 2/3.  IMO, it is just a bunch of handwaving.

He is also always talking about why his books are better or why his opinions are the right ones.  It got so bad that my son and I agreed to stop reading Fred halfway through the Economics book.  This link gives some insight into the author's world: https://www.stanleyschmidt.com/TV_producer.htm

 

[HomeAgain]

14 minutes ago, mstah3121 said:

 

Interesting. So what do you recommend as an alternative, or a supplement? I have to say, I think it's dangerous (perhaps too strong of a word) to classify a program as weak, just because it is a different format/not conceptual. The reality is that not all kids do well with conceptual math programs, and that's okay. Just like not every kid is going to excel at writing, grammar, spelling or history.   There has to be programs out there for these kids, and IMO, Life of Fred is a great fit for a child like my son. Conceptual math programs made him feel dumb and DESPISE math, which only further hindered his learning. Life of Fred on the other hand, has made him absolutely love math, be excited about it, and in return, he has flourished. So you will never find me calling it "weak".  A different approach, not for all students, sure. But not weak.

A fabulous addition is the MUS Epsilon dvd.  It explains how and why fractions work.  It is a great stand alone, in fact one of the best MUS levels there is.  And I honestly can't see how MUS would make a kid feel dumb.  It is slower, yes, but teaches much deeper but incrementally.  It's not AOPS, throwing a kid in the deep end and making them flounder around.  The Key To...series gets high ratings, too.  Simple, consistent explanations that build over time.

I would be very careful with the amount of memorization without understanding that LOF Fractions expects.  It doesn't stick very well.   DS went through the entire alphabet series first and filled the inside of a notebook cover with tidbits that Fred teaches.  Not a whole lot of it came up again and again, but those tidbits worked well with his main program.  The program would teach why, Fred would teach faster calculation methods.  Hand in hand.

Edited November 25, 2019 by HomeAgain
typo

[EKS]

2 hours ago, mstah3121 said:

Interesting. So what do you recommend as an alternative, or a supplement? I have to say, I think it's dangerous (perhaps too strong of a word) to classify a program as weak, just because it is a different format/not conceptual. The reality is that not all kids do well with conceptual math programs, and that's okay. Just like not every kid is going to excel at writing, grammar, spelling or history.   There has to be programs out there for these kids, and IMO, Life of Fred is a great fit for a child like my son. Conceptual math programs made him feel dumb and DESPISE math, which only further hindered his learning. Life of Fred on the other hand, has made him absolutely love math, be excited about it, and in return, he has flourished. So you will never find me calling it "weak".  A different approach, not for all students, sure. But not weak.

Just for the record, I never used the word "weak."  I said that the Fractions book is the worst math book I've ever used.  And I stand by that statement.

 

[madteaparty]

I’m the worst math homeschooler in the world (that fractions book sounds up my alley) but even so, because my DD loves it we read it at bedtime when we are home. I recall trying one of the books with my son and we both looked at each other and just tossed it. But for her it works. As bedtime reading with 3 curriculums on top 😂

[EKS]

2 hours ago, mstah3121 said:

So what do you recommend as an alternative, or a supplement?

As an alternative, I'd recommend just about anything else. Seriously.  But most especially, I'd recommend that the teacher have a deep understanding of the concepts and how they relate to the procedures.  This is far more important than which program one uses.  

Two references that I've found valuable in this regard are Liping Ma's Knowing and Teaching Elementary Mathematics and Elementary Mathematics for Teachers.

[mumto2]

We found LoF after my kids were well beyond the fractions and decimals level.  I did go back and buy them and my kids enjoyed them.   They did both books one week when I was out of town.   For  much of high school math I think LoF can stand alone but I always supplemented except for Trig.  My Dd felt the Calculus course skipped around and used terms without defining them so she bought a Calculus for Dummies book as a reference and felt the combo was pretty good.  Still not enough for the AP but after she phrased herself as a confident learner and quickly breezed through some Calc mooc’s.

[hands-on-mama]

On 11/25/2019 at 12:26 PM, HomeAgain said:

A fabulous addition is the MUS Epsilon dvd.  It explains how and why fractions work.  It is a great stand alone, in fact one of the best MUS levels there is.  And I honestly can't see how MUS would make a kid feel dumb.  It is slower, yes, but teaches much deeper but incrementally.  It's not AOPS, throwing a kid in the deep end and making them flounder around.  The Key To...series gets high ratings, too.  Simple, consistent explanations that build over time.

I would be very careful with the amount of memorization without understanding that LOF Fractions expects.  It doesn't stick very well.   DS went through the entire alphabet series first and filled the inside of a notebook cover with tidbits that Fred teaches.  Not a whole lot of it came up again and again, but those tidbits worked well with his main program.  The program would teach why, Fred would teach faster calculation methods.  Hand in hand.

I thought I would update. We actually went for it and bought MUS Epsilon and Zeta. After initially looking through, I believe it will be a great fit for my oldest. In fact, after starting, my 4th grader begged me to get it for her too, so we are now waiting on Delta. The amount of written work is just what she can handle and I think the visuals in Epsilon are amazing! I’m also impressed by the word problem work too.