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Favorite Grammar and Writing for 4th and 6th Grades


hands-on-mama
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We need a major overhaul on grammar and writing. I'm just so saddened working with my oldest (almost 12) in Essentials in Writing. I feel like I've literally failed her. She speaks correctly, but it just doesn't translate to her writing at all. Her major issues are fragments and run-on sentences. She also has issues with forming a paragraph properly. She does better when we walk through it, but she really needs to learn how to move through these skills on her own. I'm at the point that I'm not sure what the best approach is. I thought I would get some suggestions before having my youngest actually write in her brand new copy of EIW 4. I really need to figure something out and then just stick with it. I don't have any other options on hand and not a huge budget to work with, so keep that in mind please. I can sell what we have to help fund what I need though. 

As far as goals, I want to work on proper sentence structure, mechanics, and proper paragraph formation. I feel like we really can't move past that until she can write a proper paragraph on her own. I would rather take our time to get this skill down. Teaching the 5 paragraph essay will be much easier if we can just get paragraph structure and mechanics down. 

 

TIA!

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1. Speaking well and writing well are two completely different skills. The one (speaking correctly) does not really translate into the other (writing correctly). Writing is very artificial and is like having to learn a foreign language. Many students do not start "clicking" with the very different requirements of correct writing until somewhere in the age 12-14 range, when the logic and abstract thinking aspects of the brain start developing. Your daughter is right at the beginning of the "typical" maturing into those thinking skills that are needed for good writing. That should help encourage you to not feel like a failure because DD's correct speaking has not translated over to correct writing.

2. "She does better when we walk through it..." -- Yes. They all do. "...but she really needs to learn how to move through these skills on her own."-- And yes, *eventually* she needs to learn how to move through these skills on her own. I would not expect that right now at age 12 for this particular student. I would urge you to continue to scaffold her, especially in the brainstorming/organizing stages of writing, and then in the revising stage of writing. It is good to do 2, 3, and 4 separate revisions at this age. EACH revision focuses on dealing with a different fundamental issue (run-ons/fragments; adding what is missing; moving sentences around for more logical flow; etc.). This is a difficult stage in the writing process for students who are just beginning to write at a higher level, and I would NOT expect (or require) the student to do this stage alone, or expect that the student would know that they are missing things that need to be fixed. That is why it is critical for the parent (or outsourced mentor/tutor/overseer) to be right there and help the student see those things, and help provide suggestions of how to fix those things. This is a very complex and abstract skill.

3. I'd suggest picking a writing program that will help YOU help guide your students through these years when they need so much scaffolding and support in writing (usually roughly age 10-14 or 15, for the typical student). JMO -- writing, along with math -- are the 2 areas to NOT be hampered by a budget, especially for the middle school/high school years. Spend what it takes to get materials that work for both the student AND you, and save in other areas -- like checking out Lit. from the library, make your own History and Science in the elementary/middle school years, etc.

I have to run right now, but I'll think on various programs and try and throw a "thumbnail" description on with each to help decide what might be a fit for you.

Edited by Lori D.
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2 minutes ago, Lori D. said:

1. Speaking well and writing well are two completely different skills. The one (speaking correctly) does not really translate into the other (writing correctly). Writing is very artificial and is like having to a foreign language. Many students do not start "clicking" with the very different requirements of correct writing until somewhere in the age 12-14 range, when the logic and abstract thinking aspects of the brain start developing. Your daughter is right at the beginning of the "typical" maturing into those thinking skills that are needed for good writing. That should help encourage you to not feel like a failure because DD's correct speaking has not translated over to correct writing.

2. "She does better when we walk through it, but she really needs to learn how to move through these skills on her own." -- Yes. They all do. And yes, *eventually* she needs to learn how to move through these skills on her own -- I would not expect that right now at age 12 for this particular student. I would urge your to continue to scaffold her, especially in the brainstorming/organizing stages of writing, and then in the revising stage of writing. It is good to do 2, 3, and 4 separate revisions at this age. EACH revision focuses on dealing with a different fundamental issue (run-ons/fragments; adding what is missing; moving sentences around for more logical flow; etc.). This is a difficult stage in the writing process for students who are just beginning to write at a higher level, and I would NOT expect (or require) the student to do this stage alone, or expect that the student would know that they are missing things that need to be fixed. That is why it is critical for the parent (or outsourced mentor/tutor/overseer) to be right there and help the student see those things, and help provide suggestions of how to fix those things. This is a very complex and abstract skill.

3. I'd suggest picking a writing program that will help YOU help guide your students through these years when they need so much scaffolding and support in writing (usually roughly age 10-14 or 15, for the typical student).

Do you have any suggestions on programs that are good for helping me guide them through this? I'm a natural writer, and I find that because of that I often have unrealistic expectations on where they should be as far as writing goes. I was writing short stories at 6 years old that were several pages long, so my experience is very much not the norm. I'm not for sure that EIW is the best resource for what we I'm wanting to accomplish. I think my main concern is that it's light in grammar. I'm not completely sure that I'm correct in thinking that though. I think I'm just feeling the time crunch of being so close to those looming high school years. 

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2 hours ago, hollyhock2 said:

Have you looked at Rod & Staff English? It's grammar and writing, inexpensive, and very simple and clear. The writing instruction is very straight-forward and works on all the things you listed. It is religious (not sure if that is an issue for you) but the instruction is very good.

 

I have some and have also looked at CLE too. 

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5 hours ago, hands-on-mama said:

Do you have any suggestions on programs that are good for helping me guide them through this? I'm a natural writer, and I find that because of that I often have unrealistic expectations on where they should be as far as writing goes. I was writing short stories at 6 years old that were several pages long, so my experience is very much not the norm. I'm not for sure that EIW is the best resource for what we I'm wanting to accomplish. I think my main concern is that it's light in grammar. I'm not completely sure that I'm correct in thinking that though. I think I'm just feeling the time crunch of being so close to those looming high school years. 


Will have to come back to this tomorrow -- too much on my plate right now to come up with a well-thought out list of ideas at the moment. 😉 

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On 11/18/2019 at 6:11 PM, hands-on-mama said:

Do you have any suggestions on programs that are good for helping me guide them through this? I'm a natural writer, and I find that because of that I often have unrealistic expectations on where they should be as far as writing goes. I was writing short stories at 6 years old that were several pages long, so my experience is very much not the norm. I'm not for sure that EIW is the best resource for what we I'm wanting to accomplish. I think my main concern is that it's light in grammar. I'm not completely sure that I'm correct in thinking that though. I think I'm just feeling the time crunch of being so close to those looming high school years. 

I'm no Lori D, that's for sure, so take my advice with a grain of salt if hers turns out to be different than mine  😉

I'm a natural writer too and it was so hard for me to learn to teach them step by step to do what I just do naturally without thinking. I hesitated to get IEW for several years because it was so expensive and because SWB said it could lead to formulaic writing. But finally I bit the bullet and tried the TWSS to teach me how to be a writing teacher and I'm very glad I did! It helped my DS organize his thoughts in a coherent way and I have seen my DD who is in 6th grade now make really big strides in her sentence structure this year. My other DD was more of a natural writer and so she didn't benefit quite as much as the other 2 so far, but it still helped her some. And it was extremely beneficial for my confidence as a writing teacher!

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On 11/18/2019 at 6:11 PM, hands-on-mama said:

Do you have any suggestions on programs that are good for helping me guide them through this? I'm a natural writer, and I find that because of that I often have unrealistic expectations on where they should be as far as writing goes. I was writing short stories at 6 years old that were several pages long, so my experience is very much not the norm. I'm not for sure that EIW is the best resource for what we I'm wanting to accomplish. I think my main concern is that it's light in grammar. I'm not completely sure that I'm correct in thinking that though. I think I'm just feeling the time crunch of being so close to those looming high school years. 

Quoting you again because I forgot to talk about grammar. We do IEW's Fix It for elementary. It's gentle and fun and does not include diagramming. I like to introduce grammar in elementary, but I don't feel it's necessary to make it a big deal at that age. Starting in 6th we use Analytical Grammar and I can't say enough good things about it! It's thorough and complete and easy to use teaches diagramming and is designed to be used for just a few weeks each year for 3 years and then they have all the grammar knowledge they need for high school.

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On 11/18/2019 at 4:11 PM, hands-on-mama said:

Do you have any suggestions on programs that are good for helping me guide them through this? I'm a natural writer, and I find that because of that I often have unrealistic expectations on where they should be as far as writing goes. I was writing short stories at 6 years old that were several pages long, so my experience is very much not the norm. I'm not for sure that EIW is the best resource for what we I'm wanting to accomplish. I think my main concern is that it's light in grammar...


One resource that integrates Writing and Grammar is Treasured Conversations (now called Teaching Writing Through Guided Analysis). For grades 3-5 -- so right in the sweet spot for your 4th grader, and you might be able to just have your 6th grader do it at a quicker pace to make sure she has all the parts for foundational writing. But I'm thinking that it might help give YOU a starting place for how to teach writing, due to the guided nature of the program, and how it lays out writing.

Treasured Conversations was written by WTM board member 8FillTheHeart, who has a very solid teaching philosophy. About 2/3 down in the past thread "Bringing Karen's mention of essay writing to a new thread", she describes her overview of teaching writing in 2 posts. That whole thread has some interesting discussion on teaching writing. Also check out these past threads on trying to figure out how to teach writing and what to use"Transition to original writing" and "My evaluation of numerous writing curricula".

Most people tend to use programs where the writing and grammar are separate, so I'm struggling to come up with something that integrates the two (besides Treasured Conversations). For example, Rod and Staff and Voyages in English are textbook-based, but the Grammar and Writing components are separate within the English program.

For Grammar stand alone, you might look at Junior Analytical Grammar (gr. 4-6), or Analytical Grammar (gr. 6-9). While it is a separate program, the same publisher of JAG and AG has a writing program that is meant to complement their grammar: Beyond the Book Report. That is for grades 6-8, with 3 units, each sold individually.

I'm a natural writer, too, and I never could find a program that helped me figure out how to teach my average/disliked writing DS#1 and struggling with LDs in writing/abhored writing DS#2. I ended up pulling bits and pieces from a lot of different resources. Somehow I muddled through (evidence: both DSs got "A"s in their college Writing 101 and 102 courses) -- but it wasn't pretty, and it wasn't as logical or organized as I would have wished. Where *I* have been starting to get a feel for how to teach writing is through having to teach it to my Lit. & Comp. co-cop classes. I use a lot of excerpts and ideas from a lot of different writing programs and individual resources about writing -- no one program seems to have what I need. This is year 6, and I still keep doing massive amounts of research, and every year I keep adding/dropping and changing things as I learn more about what works/doesn't work in teaching writing.

For late elementary/early middle school grades, some specific resources just for WRITING from which you pull helpful "how to teach" ideas:
- Evan-Moor: Writing Fabulous Sentences and Paragraphs (Norris) (gr. 4-6) -- types of sentences; types of paragraphs; organizing information into paragraphs
- Scholastic: Super Sentences & Perfect Paragraphs (Lewis) (gr. 3-6) -- what kinds of sentences (and in what order) are needed to make a complete paragraph
- Four Square Writing (gr. 4-6) -- what needs to go into a paragraph
- Twisting Arms: Teaching Students How to Write to Persuade (gr. 5-8) -- how to build an argument of support for your claim

For late middle school grades:
- Scholastic: 50 Debate Prompts (Daley) (gr. 6-8) -- prompt ideas to practice building an argument of support for your claim
- Scholastic: Mastering the 5 Paragraph Essay (Zile) (gr. 6-8) -- written for the classroom, but you can adapt; teaches the 5-paragraph essay, and then how to write different types of essays (informational; personal narrative; persuasive; compare/contrast; literary analysis: character analysis)

A bit drier and more "workbook-y" (so not sure how much teaching help there is for YOU), but many people like the Don Killgallon workbooks:
- Sentence Composing for Elementary School (gr. K-5) -- see sample pages here
Paragraphs for Elementary School (gr. 3-5) -- see sample pages here
- Getting Started With Middle School Sentence Composing (gr. 6-8) -- see sample pages here
- Paragraphs for Middle School (gr. 6-8) -- see sample pages here

Grammar / proof editing practice of GUM (Grammar Usage and Mechanics):
- Take 5 Minutes: A History Fact a Day for Editing
- Editor in Chief series
- Caught Ya Grammar series -- also has built-in grammar review
- Fix-It Grammar series -- grammar + proof editing practice


A few writing programs you might look at for your 6th grader that might also help give you ideas for how to teach writing:

- Wordsmith Apprentice (gr. 4-6); Wordsmith (gr. 7-8)
Gentle, written to the student in an informal tone. Great for keeping alive the idea that writing can be fun and interesting (vs. hard and overwhelming). Both integrate some grammar with the writing. Both cover descriptive, narrative, expository, and persuasive writing. Apprentice level covers word choice, sentences, and 1 paragraph assignments. Wordsmith covers 1 paragraph and multi-paragraph essays. We used both of these and very much enjoyed them -- average writer DS#1 used Apprentice in grade 5, and struggling writer DS#2 used Apprentice in grade 7 -- so your 6th grader might be a perfect fit for this one. You may be able to use it with both your 4th and 6th graders right now (just at different speeds).

- Jump In (gr. 6-9)
Similar in informal tone and written to the student as Wordsmith, but more in-depth. Covers all 4 types of writing (descriptive, narrative, expository, persuasive), and teaches how to think of what to say, and how to organize your thoughts. Focus is on 1-, 3-, and 5-paragraph essays of different types. The program is designed to take 2 years, by spending 4 weeks doing free writing from the program's prompts after completing each unit. We used Jump In with our DS#2 in 8th grade (Jump In had just come out that year), and we skipped the lame, repetitive prompts and completed the program in 1 year.

(Total side note: We substituted actual past SAT essay prompts and once a week both DSs and myself would practice doing a timed essay from a choice of prompt -- we built up slowly starting that year in 8th with writing just 1 paragraph in 10 minutes, to building up by the end of 9th grade to writing 3-5 paragraphs in 25 minutes -- every month or two I would have us focus on a new element of writing (like, include a hook, or focus on thesis statement, or include commentary, etc.), or extend the length of time and the length of writing by a little bit. The reason I include all that is because this weekly writing of practicing having an opinion and supporting it did more to help improve DSs' writing than almost anything else we did in middle/high school years.)

- Cover Story (gr. 6-8)
Video lessons; integrates some grammar with the writing; fun/informal presentation to the student; more of a creative writing focus -- so esp. good for a student more interested in writing stories, newspaper articles, etc.

- IEW (by grade levels: gr. 3-5; gr. 6-8; gr. 9-12)
Helpful in breaking the writing process down into the stages (brainstorm, organize, rough draft, revision, proof-editing), and spreading the stages out over a week, or in different "bites" over the course of a day. Also helpful in teaching how to create key-word outlines (organize stage), and then how easy it is to rough draft write from the outline. A boatload of materials at their website; you'd have to ask someone who has used their materials what exactly to get for what ages. (I got the gist of his method from seeing him speak in several sessions at a local homeschool convention, and was able to put into practice his techniques I listed above just from those sessions.)

- Essentials in Writing (by individual grade)
Video lessons of the instructor as he teaches each lesson, and demonstrates assignments. A grading option for grades 7 and up is available for an additional fee. Integrates writing and grammar. See the scope and sequence and a sample video on that linked web page.

- Writing With Skill 1 (gr. 6-9)
I hesitate to put this one down, because I don't think your DD is ready for it, BUT, it is a 3 year (WWS 1, WW2, WW3) program, very formal, structured, guided instruction for moving into multi-paragraph essay writing of the types typically done in late middle school and early high school. For a 6th grader still struggling with basic paragraph instruction, I would wait until grade 8 or 9 with this one. However, you might find some helpful ideas on "how to teach writing" for YOU in this series.
 

On 11/18/2019 at 4:11 PM, hands-on-mama said:

...  I think I'm just feeling the time crunch of being so close to those looming high school years. 


Just work with the student before you, at the level that student is at. Move forward at one little step at a time. And don't panic -- 6th grade is a LONG way from 9th grade. A LOT of growing/maturing will happen in the next few years. Also, it's not like there's a magic "switch" you flip to go from "middle school" into all "high school" work -- 9th grade is VERY often a period of transition into higher level work and higher level thinking. Again, just work on what the need is for now in 6th grade, for THIS student. 😄 

Wishing you and your students all the BEST in your Writing and Grammar journeys! Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited by Lori D.
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6 hours ago, Lori D. said:


One resource that integrates Writing and Grammar is Treasured Conversations (now called Teaching Writing Through Guided Analysis). For grades 3-5 -- so right in the sweet spot for your 4th grader, and you might be able to just have your 6th grader do it at a quicker pace to make sure she has all the parts for foundational writing. But I'm thinking that it might help give YOU a starting place for how to teach writing, due to the guided nature of the program, and how it lays out writing.

Treasured Conversations was written by WTM board member 8FillTheHeart, who has a very solid teaching philosophy. About 2/3 down in the past thread "Bringing Karen's mention of essay writing to a new thread", she describes her overview of teaching writing in 2 posts. That whole thread has some interesting discussion on teaching writing. Also check out these past threads on trying to figure out how to teach writing and what to use"Transition to original writing" and "My evaluation of numerous writing curricula".

Most people tend to use programs where the writing and grammar are separate, so I'm struggling to come up with something that integrates the two (besides Treasured Conversations). For example, Rod and Staff and Voyages in English are textbook-based, but the Grammar and Writing components are separate within the English program.

For Grammar stand alone, you might look at Junior Analytical Grammar (gr. 4-6), or Analytical Grammar (gr. 6-9). While it is a separate program, the same publisher of JAG and AG has a writing program that is meant to complement their grammar: Beyond the Book Report. That is for grades 6-8, with 3 units, each sold individually.

I'm a natural writer, too, and I never could find a program that helped me figure out how to teach my average/disliked writing DS#1 and struggling with LDs in writing/abhored writing DS#2. I ended up pulling bits and pieces from a lot of different resources. Somehow I muddled through (evidence: both DSs got "A"s in their college Writing 101 and 102 courses) -- but it wasn't pretty, and it wasn't as logical or organized as I would have wished. Where *I* have been starting to get a feel for how to teach writing is through having to teach it to my Lit. & Comp. co-cop classes. I use a lot of excerpts and ideas from a lot of different writing programs and individual resources about writing -- no one program seems to have what I need. This is year 6, and I still keep doing massive amounts of research, and every year I keep adding/dropping and changing things as I learn more about what works/doesn't work in teaching writing.

For late elementary/early middle school grades, some specific resources just for WRITING from which you pull helpful "how to teach" ideas:
- Evan-Moor: Writing Fabulous Sentences and Paragraphs (Norris) (gr. 4-6) -- types of sentences; types of paragraphs; organizing information into paragraphs
- Scholastic: Super Sentences & Perfect Paragraphs (Lewis) (gr. 3-6) -- what kinds of sentences (and in what order) are needed to make a complete paragraph
- Four Square Writing (gr. 4-6) -- what needs to go into a paragraph
- Twisting Arms: Teaching Students How to Write to Persuade (gr. 5-8) -- how to build an argument of support for your claim

For late middle school grades:
- Scholastic: 50 Debate Prompts (Daley) (gr. 6-8) -- prompt ideas to practice building an argument of support for your claim
- Scholastic: Mastering the 5 Paragraph Essay (Zile) (gr. 6-8) -- written for the classroom, but you can adapt; teaches the 5-paragraph essay, and then how to write different types of essays (informational; personal narrative; persuasive; compare/contrast; literary analysis: character analysis)

A bit drier and more "workbook-y" (so not sure how much teaching help there is for YOU), but many people like the Don Killgallon workbooks:
- Sentence Composing for Elementary School (gr. K-5) -- see sample pages here
Paragraphs for Elementary School (gr. 3-5) -- see sample pages here
- Getting Started With Middle School Sentence Composing (gr. 6-8) -- see sample pages here
- Paragraphs for Middle School (gr. 6-8) -- see sample pages here

Grammar / proof editing practice of GUM (Grammar Usage and Mechanics):
- Take 5 Minutes: A History Fact a Day for Editing
- Editor in Chief series
- Caught Ya Grammar series -- also has built-in grammar review
- Fix-It Grammar series -- grammar + proof editing practice


A few writing programs you might look at for your 6th grader that might also help give you ideas for how to teach writing:

- Wordsmith Apprentice (gr. 4-6); Wordsmith (gr. 7-8)
Gentle, written to the student in an informal tone. Great for keeping alive the idea that writing can be fun and interesting (vs. hard and overwhelming). Both integrate some grammar with the writing. Both cover descriptive, narrative, expository, and persuasive writing. Apprentice level covers word choice, sentences, and 1 paragraph assignments. Wordsmith covers 1 paragraph and multi-paragraph essays. We used both of these and very much enjoyed them -- average writer DS#1 used Apprentice in grade 5, and struggling writer DS#2 used Apprentice in grade 7 -- so your 6th grader might be a perfect fit for this one. You may be able to use it with both your 4th and 6th graders right now (just at different speeds).

- Jump In (gr. 6-9)
Similar in informal tone and written to the student as Wordsmith, but more in-depth. Covers all 4 types of writing (descriptive, narrative, expository, persuasive), and teaches how to think of what to say, and how to organize your thoughts. Focus is on 1-, 3-, and 5-paragraph essays of different types. The program is designed to take 2 years, by spending 4 weeks doing free writing from the program's prompts after completing each unit. We used Jump In with our DS#2 in 8th grade (Jump In had just come out that year), and we skipped the lame, repetitive prompts and completed the program in 1 year.

(Total side note: We substituted actual past SAT essay prompts and once a week both DSs and myself would practice doing a timed essay from a choice of prompt -- we built up slowly starting that year in 8th with writing just 1 paragraph in 10 minutes, to building up by the end of 9th grade to writing 3-5 paragraphs in 25 minutes -- every month or two I would have us focus on a new element of writing (like, include a hook, or focus on thesis statement, or include commentary, etc.), or extend the length of time and the length of writing by a little bit. The reason I include all that is because this weekly writing of practicing having an opinion and supporting it did more to help improve DSs' writing than almost anything else we did in middle/high school years.)

- Cover Story (gr. 6-8)
Video lessons; integrates some grammar with the writing; fun/informal presentation to the student; more of a creative writing focus -- so esp. good for a student more interested in writing stories, newspaper articles, etc.

- IEW (by grade levels: gr. 3-5; gr. 6-8; gr. 9-12)
Helpful in breaking the writing process down into the stages (brainstorm, organize, rough draft, revision, proof-editing), and spreading the stages out over a week, or in different "bites" over the course of a day. Also helpful in teaching how to create key-word outlines (organize stage), and then how easy it is to rough draft write from the outline. A boatload of materials at their website; you'd have to ask someone who has used their materials what exactly to get for what ages. (I got the gist of his method from seeing him speak in several sessions at a local homeschool convention, and was able to put into practice his techniques I listed above just from those sessions.)

- Essentials in Writing (by individual grade)
Video lessons of the instructor as he teaches each lesson, and demonstrates assignments. A grading option for grades 7 and up is available for an additional fee. Integrates writing and grammar. See the scope and sequence and a sample video on that linked web page.

- Writing With Skill 1 (gr. 6-9)
I hesitate to put this one down, because I don't think your DD is ready for it, BUT, it is a 3 year (WWS 1, WW2, WW3) program, very formal, structured, guided instruction for moving into multi-paragraph essay writing of the types typically done in late middle school and early high school. For a 6th grader still struggling with basic paragraph instruction, I would wait until grade 8 or 9 with this one. However, you might find some helpful ideas on "how to teach writing" for YOU in this series.
 


Just work with the student before you, at the level that student is at. Move forward at one little step at a time. And don't panic -- 6th grade is a LONG way from 9th grade. A LOT of growing/maturing will happen in the next few years. Also, it's not like there's a magic "switch" you flip to go from "middle school" into all "high school" work -- 9th grade is VERY often a period of transition into higher level work and higher level thinking. Again, just work on what the need is for now in 6th grade, for THIS student. 😄 

Wishing you and your students all the BEST in your Writing and Grammar journeys! Warmest regards, Lori D.

 

 

Thank you so much Lori! So I have EIW for both my girls already. They haven’t quite gotten to the writing portion, so we will definitely see how that goes. They are also doing an outlining book mentioned on another post. I think we will look at some of those super sentences books too and see what might help. I’m still curious about Treasured Conversations and am tempted to give it a shot too. 

I agree that WWS is still too much for her. She struggles with organization and work load in general. She is the poster child of a girl with ADHD. 😂 i’m Really just trying my best to get her to her own best. She’s very bright but definitely lacks in some maturity in many areas. She struggles with handwriting too, so we really need to work on typing. 

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