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ByeByeMartha

College Classes during High School

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High-school students who take college classes don’t always save time — or money

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/high-school-students-who-take-college-classes-dont-always-save-time-or-money-2019-05-21

As a spin-off to my thread about community college classes and transferability, I found the above article and wanted to share. It sounds like many people are finding that their Seniors may be graduating with a high school diploma and an Associate's Degree, but it doesn't mean it will transfer as an Associate's Degree--particularly if they go out of state and especially if the "college classes" were taught at the high school itself. Personally, I would be very wary of any dual enrollment course that is taking place at the high school and not the community college. 

eta: maybe this should be moved to the high school board?

Edited by ByeByeMartha
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My DD has done quite a few college classes in high school, and a couple earlier than that. I honestly do not care if she gets any credit whatsoever for them for college. The reason she did them was because they were the best option for her at the time. And overall, I think our local CC has been a great place for her to get the school experience she craved and to be in a classroom setting, and get used to time management and differing expectations without having to give up the flexibility and ability to follow her interests that she would have lost in a full time high school setting. In our state, it has also been a very cost effective way of accessing this content and the classroom setting. And the gift of time, in being able to take classes just because they sound interesting, without worrying whether they fit into a major, has been valuable as well.  But ultimately, what she does this last 4 years before leaving home is high school. 

In talking to schools, even schools that do not transfer credits take DE, AP, IB, etc into account in class placement. And many of the schools that do not accept such credits are those where it is expected that students have had that DE/AP/IB level class anyway coming in, so do not necessarily offer courses at that level at all. So enriching high school is potentially useful in other ways besides financial there, too. 

 

 

 

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Just now, HeighHo said:

It depends on the state and the provider.  CC DE transfers to state U are guaranteed here.  There is no problem , as the course content is identical to the course the teacher is teaching in the night session, with the exception of the meeting times.  The student of course should have a good grade, if not he should repeat if the course is foundational.

Students going on to more select college will take the college's version, as the course is not identical to what the CC or other provider offered in many cases.  If it was, they may test out at their college.

 

 

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Yeah, I read this when it came out. You have to really know what your plan is when you go into the DE classes if your primary goal is credit and shaving off time. Not just what institution you'll attend, but also what major you'll have - sometimes they take the credit, but not for your specific major. That's a lot of stuff to have to know already for a 16 yo. And some of it isn't in the student's control completely - you may want to attend Flagship State U, but maybe your test scores won't get you there in the end - something it's hard to know at age 15 or 16.

It's just that saving money isn't the only reason to do DE. It can be to access certain subjects, to look good to colleges and prove you can do that level of work, to have a college experience... I wish schools were just more frank about the fact that the saving money and time aspect only applies if you take specific paths.

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29 minutes ago, dmmetler said:

My DD has done quite a few college classes in high school, and a couple earlier than that. I honestly do not care if she gets any credit whatsoever for them for college. The reason she did them was because they were the best option for her at the time. And overall, I think our local CC has been a great place for her to get the school experience she craved and to be in a classroom setting, and get used to time management and differing expectations without having to give up the flexibility and ability to follow her interests that she would have lost in a full time high school setting. In our state, it has also been a very cost effective way of accessing this content and the classroom setting. And the gift of time, in being able to take classes just because they sound interesting, without worrying whether they fit into a major, has been valuable as well.  But ultimately, what she does this last 4 years before leaving home is high school. 

In talking to schools, even schools that do not transfer credits take DE, AP, IB, etc into account in class placement. And many of the schools that do not accept such credits are those where it is expected that students have had that DE/AP/IB level class anyway coming in, so do not necessarily offer courses at that level at all. So enriching high school is potentially useful in other ways besides financial there, too. 

 

 

 

My younger daughter is doing DE for the same reason.  It's interesting and fun.  Her CC class, along with another outsourced in-person class lets her have the classroom setting she craves.  Mostly though it gives her time to try new things, and explore new interests without the pressure of being in a degree program or spending lots of money (CC classes are free for high school students).  

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When my oldest (now 21 yo) started de at 16 yo I really didn't care about how it would transfer. He was taking those classes for all the other reasons mentioned. Same thing with my second ds. It was a means to accomplishing the high school education and because my boys in the second half of high school were really over homeschooling and looking to spread their wings. So the very affordable de options just made sense.

That said, both my boys saved time and money in college as their classes did transfer in a beneficial way. First ds is an accounting major. He took all four years to graduate but his senior year has basically been him taking the 30 extra credit hours required to sit for the CPA exam. So the result of his de (he transferred 30 hours) was that he satisfied all his gen ed requirements with transfer credit and he got the extra 30 hours in while on full scholarship. He has a good job secured post graduation that he was only interviewed for because he had those 30 extra hours done. His friends graduating with him are headed to grad school to get those hours. His de basically allowed him to skip that step. 

Second ds goes to a university that requires 9 summer hours (annoying requirement). He transferred in 36 de hours and those combined with the 9 summer hours have him set to graduate in just five semesters. He is saving a ton of money and he doesn't really like school. Having the finish line moved so much closer has helped him stay motivated.

So with third ds I am more aware of how things might transfer and the implications of what he takes de. It still is primarily to meet high school goals but I am more aware of how it could possibly play out. There really is no way to know for sure unless you have some agreement that is not subject to change. It's a mixed bag, really. As with most things on the college board it really is individual and your mileage may vary. Being informed is the best you can do.

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So far my two high schoolers have felt they wanted some different teachers than me in high school. So far, one has done dual enrollment and one is doing the local co-op. We're not doing DE solely for $ reasons, but I do hope it does shave some money off the back end of college - but I'm not counting on it.

My oldest is set to graduate with an AS along with her diploma this coming May. I assume she will go 3-4 years for a Bachelors. She had to do all of the "boring" high school classes, which she did not want to do solely with me. Our only option for secular outsourcing here are online classes or community college - she doesn't do well with online due to some executive function problems. So community college it is. She's been pretty happy, and if she gets enough credits to not have to do fine arts and/or English again, she'll be ecstatic. 

My middle, now a freshman, may take some classes at the community college, but so far, she is doing some classes at the local Christian co-op (our only option besides CC for high school here). While she is not in love with it so far, I know that the community college would not be a better fit for her. 

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Our older boys did a lot of dc. The GPA did not transfer to their target schools. They really had to hit the ground running because all of their "easy" classes were done. It didn't serve my STEM guy well (there were some other factors at play), but it allowed our health sciences guy a cushion to retake a tough physics class. Because they were the oldest they could be for their age-grade (and in public school), it really was the only/ best choice for them at the time.

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There is the real issue of taking so much de that you are dropped into higher level courses and some of the gen eds that might have been easier and helped the GPA have already been taken de. That happened  to my ds while adjusting to college life 500 miles from home. Also he is graduating at 20 yo. We always told him he’d have to go to graduate school because it just didn’t seem he’d be ready at 20 to compete in the professional world. He actually has landed in a job in his field that he may be able to just stick with post graduation so that might work out. Just to say there are issues with finishing early.

It’s really been very beneficial for my second ds even though there were some drawbacks. In the end it might have been hard to keep my ds motivated for four years so the challenges he had were still better than him going in without a head start. Even my oldest who is very mature and motivated said that logging into the student portal and seeing how far along in the degree he already was was always an encouragement. To kids that age four years can seem like forever.

My third ds is my most engaged student and likely would be happy to go to school and put off a job as long as possible. De might have more drawbacks for him because just getting the dang thing done won’t be the highest priority. 
 

So while it stinks when all the credit doesn’t transfer, sometimes it still stinks a little when it actually does. 

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It's a different world in Canada, firstly because we don't have community colleges. However, it seems like each US state and school can be a little different as well.

My high school kids have taken university courses (offered as "Head Start" or "Special Student") for several different reasons. We are VERY happy that some universities allow high school students to take courses. Sometimes we get a much appreciated financial reduction in the cost of the course, and sometimes not. 

Here are some reasons my dc have take university courses:

- Complete an elective for the program they will enroll as a full-time student

- Reduce the number of courses they need to take in the first year of a program

- Use the university courses to apply to a program 

- Opportunity to study a specific subject not typically offered at high school (i.e., philosophy, psychology)

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In my state, there are very solid transfer agreements, guaranteed admissions, and 2+2 programs. So if you stay in-state, it can be a great way to go. 

So yes, they did dual enrollment, and then both finished their associate's after high school graduation. Both got guaranteed admission into the four year. My older one transferred into a top-twenty program at the four year with all of his first two years taken care of. It was a competitive program with very few transfer slots, but he went right in on the guaranteed admission agreement. 

No regrets. 

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We did Dual Enrollment, he has 70+ credits, only 27 credits were accepted at he first choice.  We are looking into other ways to get more of his classes counted but honestly if that's it we're okay with it. The original reason we choose DE is because we did not think he was going to go to college. Our state has a 2+2 program but we went the AS route instead. 

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9 minutes ago, Lucy the Valiant said:

Has anyone else read Homeschooling for College Credit? I bought it and read it and am QUITE intrigued.

read it and the website, and am on the fb group too.  Not a perfect fit for all.  But I've enjoyed reading her experiences with credit by exam options and classes to get degree.   wouldn't have helped much for my oldest (stem major), but somewhat helpful for middle gal who is stopping after associates in general studies.  HS4CC tends to work toward "the big 3" (that accept majority of degree credits via exam and other).  But we used the ideas to resourcefully plan which clep exams to use at community college to pair with 8 classes online.   I don't fully agree with everything HS4CC says. She's not trying to give a one size fits all approach.

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18 hours ago, cbollin said:

read it and the website, and am on the fb group too.  Not a perfect fit for all.  But I've enjoyed reading her experiences with credit by exam options and classes to get degree.   wouldn't have helped much for my oldest (stem major), but somewhat helpful for middle gal who is stopping after associates in general studies.  HS4CC tends to work toward "the big 3" (that accept majority of degree credits via exam and other).  But we used the ideas to resourcefully plan which clep exams to use at community college to pair with 8 classes online.   I don't fully agree with everything HS4CC says. She's not trying to give a one size fits all approach.

Yes, that's the same "take-away" I'm getting from it, but I have 4 who are likely college bound and NOT enough cash-in-the-bank to fund 4-8 degrees, kwim? I'm curious as to the receptiveness of important graduate schools to the degrees from those "Big 3" and have zero real life experience / people with experience to ask. 

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On 11/18/2019 at 6:29 AM, MamaSprout said:

Our older boys did a lot of dc. The GPA did not transfer to their target schools. They really had to hit the ground running because all of their "easy" classes were done. It didn't serve my STEM guy well (there were some other factors at play), but it allowed our health sciences guy a cushion to retake a tough physics class. Because they were the oldest they could be for their age-grade (and in public school), it really was the only/ best choice for them at the time.

This is something that I think gets forgotten. I know that today's thinking is deeply geared toward seeing college as solely a consumer experience, end stop. However, when kids do all their gen ed via DE, they're getting very little time to explore anything on their own at all. And then they start college having to dive directly into higher level classes that they may not be fully ready for. Of course, all of it is individual - depends on how you use DE, where your student attends, etc. However, if you do it the "traditional" way and go from DE at a CC into a state four year, then this is inevitably the result. And it could be good or bad... But the downside is rarely mentioned.

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10 minutes ago, Farrar said:

This is something that I think gets forgotten. I know that today's thinking is deeply geared toward seeing college as solely a consumer experience, end stop. However, when kids do all their gen ed via DE, they're getting very little time to explore anything on their own at all. And then they start college having to dive directly into higher level classes that they may not be fully ready for. Of course, all of it is individual - depends on how you use DE, where your student attends, etc. However, if you do it the "traditional" way and go from DE at a CC into a state four year, then this is inevitably the result. And it could be good or bad... But the downside is rarely mentioned.

And honestly our guys didn’t even do it at a CC- it was a 4 year. ETA- And the the school the STEM guy planned to graduate from.

Edited by MamaSprout
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7 hours ago, Lucy the Valiant said:

Yes, that's the same "take-away" I'm getting from it, but I have 4 who are likely college bound and NOT enough cash-in-the-bank to fund 4-8 degrees, kwim? I'm curious as to the receptiveness of important graduate schools to the degrees from those "Big 3" and have zero real life experience / people with experience to ask. 

hmm.. so far on the HS4CC I have not seen a lot of graduate school chatter. Doesn't mean it didn't work out.  just means not talk on it.  I know of one other person who has service with using clep and similar exams to get undergraduate. (the business is called dual credit at home.  similar in idea with Hs4CC's paid services). Several of her (dual credit at home lady) children got history degrees (or general studies with history concentration maybe?) at Charter Oak, and those children did not have problems with getting into law school.  was that typical or unusual response by the grad schools? I don't know.  The one person I know in real life who had child get bachelors degree using a lot of clep and online classes during same years as high school had her daughter decide to get a second bachelors degree on campus at state university.  She could have gone straight to grad school but the student did not feel ready at age 18 for that, so she talked with admissions and made a plan.  not a lot of experiences to go on.  but it's the little I have heard.

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18 hours ago, Lucy the Valiant said:

Yes, that's the same "take-away" I'm getting from it, but I have 4 who are likely college bound and NOT enough cash-in-the-bank to fund 4-8 degrees, kwim? I'm curious as to the receptiveness of important graduate schools to the degrees from those "Big 3" and have zero real life experience / people with experience to ask. 

I have not read the book in question, but our 6th is a sr. Our kids have all attended college very inexpensively (between $0-$7000/yr for everything).  For our family it has been a matter of pursuing merit or in our very avg student dd's case, she ended up pursuing an allied health career (ota) via a 2 yr program. (Ironically, she has an excellent career and currently makes more $$ than her cousin with a master's degree.)

My main reason for responding, though, is graduate school. Our experience with our ds ingrad school is that it takes more than an UG degree. Our physics ds could have graduated in 2 yrs, but stayed in UG for all 4. Why? He knew he needed as much UG research experience as possible to be competitive. His grad school app consisted of his LOR (from his research mentors both on-campus and REUs), his research experiences,  his GRE ( and for him his PGRE) scores, as well as his transcript. He used his entering at an advanced level as an opportunity to take advanced coursework.  If he had graduated early, his application would have been severely lacking and he would have been a weak vs. Incredibly strong applicant.

Our dd is in the midst of preparing for a 5 yr master's program. She meets with her grad school advisor soon. Admissions to advanced/faster paced degrees like combined UG/master's  programs are competitive and limited in admissions. She is a jr and the process starts jr yr. If she had started at this school this yr as a jr, she wouldn't  be competitive for the program. (Though, to be clear, she is a 3rd yr student there, but a sr by coursework standing bc she also entered with 30 hrs of crs, mostly from CLEP.)  Graduating early was also never a discussion bc it would have left her far less marketable than not.

Some degrees may not be impacted by early graduation, but the assumption should not be made that there are no negatives. I see more negatives than positives. My chemE ds could have graduated early but used the time for research and co-oping which led to multiple job offers at graduation in the height of the recession whereas students who just did coursework had no or limited job offers.)

Edited by 8FillTheHeart
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On 11/20/2019 at 8:09 AM, 8FillTheHeart said:

 

I have not read the book in question, but our 6th is a sr. Our kids have all attended college very inexpensively (between $0-$7000/yr for everything).  For our family it has been a matter of pursuing merit or in our very avg student dd's case, she ended up pursuing an allied health career (ota) via a 2 yr program. (Ironically, she has an excellent career and currently makes more $$ than her cousin with a master's degree.)

My main reason for responding, though, is graduate school. Our experience with our ds ingrad school is that it takes more than an UG degree. Our physics ds could have graduated in 2 yrs, but stayed in UG for all 4. Why? He knew he needed as much UG research experience as possible to be competitive. His grad school app consisted of his LOR (from his research mentors both on-campus and REUs), his research experiences,  his GRE ( and for him his PGRE) scores, as well as his transcript. He used his entering at an advanced level as an opportunity to take advanced coursework.  If he had graduated early, his application would have been severely lacking and he would have been a weak vs. Incredibly strong applicant.

Our dd is in the midst of preparing for a 5 yr master's program. She meets with her grad school advisor soon. Admissions to advanced/faster paced degrees like combined UG/master's  programs are competitive and limited in admissions. She is a jr and the process starts jr yr. If she had started at this school this yr as a jr, she wouldn't  be competitive for the program. (Though, to be clear, she is a 3rd yr student there, but a sr by coursework standing bc she also entered with 30 hrs of crs, mostly from CLEP.)  Graduating early was also never a discussion bc it would have left her far less marketable than not.

Some degrees may not be impacted by early graduation, but the assumption should not be made that there are no negatives. I see more negatives than positives. My chemE ds could have graduated early but used the time for research and co-oping which led to multiple job offers at graduation in the height of the recession whereas students who just did coursework had no or limited job offers.)

 

I *SO* appreciate your writing this all out; THANK YOU. I don't have people IRL that I can talk to about this, and I feel like the answers I get from college UG admissions people are not the full picture (i.e., they don't take family long-term finances into consideration, or siblings). Thank you!

We have a couple of academically-minded kids who are mildly interested in several different options, but don't feel super strongly about any 1 option. They're not going to have a lot of cash for college, and I want to be wise with advice to them, and feel like the "next step" is incredibly complicated. I'm reading here, studying, taking notes, asking around, doing due diligence of my own, but still feel inadequate to advise them. I appreciate the wisdom. (We're starting the CLEP process through Modern States as we wrap up this semester, just using the CLEP as a post-course bonus test. No downsides to that, right? Maybe?)

Edited by Lucy the Valiant

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On 11/20/2019 at 5:09 AM, 8FillTheHeart said:

Our dd is in the midst of preparing for a 5 yr master's program.

 

Five years seems like a long time for a masters.  What field is this?  

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3 hours ago, daijobu said:

 

Five years seems like a long time for a masters.  What field is this?  

 

I'm not the poster you're referring to, but my guess is that this is a 5-year bachelor's-plus-master's program.

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My dd did DE at a community college in NJ for a year when we lived there and the cost was minimal (1/3 the cost if she hadn't been in high school). We then moved to NC where DE is free (except for the cost of books) and credits will transfer to any NC school. She took classes for three semesters here. All her credits from NJ transferred to the community college in NC as well. She is graduating next month and has been accepted as a transfer student (a few personal reasons we chose this route rather than as a freshman...she could have done either) so she will enter UNCW as a second semester sophomore in September with all her credits transferring and since she took courses with specific goals in mind, all counting toward some requirement for graduation. 

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We had dd do dual enrollment for the classroom experience most of all, so she only took 3 classes her senior year.

Ds is taking one next semester of his junior year and will hopefully do six classes next year. Our local technical college has a list of courses that will transfer to the four year schools in our state. I've already checked with a potential Christian college on which classes ds could take at that school that would count toward his core classes. He doesn't enjoy school work but does want to get a degree. He is hoping some dual enrollment will allow him to take fewer classes each semester more so than graduate sooner. 

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I'm guessing a lot depends on the state and if the student stays in-state for college.

I live in NC, and my son earned a year's worth of credit via dual enrollment while he was a senior in high school.  He is now completing his associates, with plans to graduate next spring.  He has already been accepted to one of NC's public universities, and every class he earned will transfer, so he will start off as a junior next fall. He just recently got accepted, and the university's website already lists all of his community college classes and what they will transfer as.   So he will start off as a junior in college with no debt. 

Adding that I'm sure that having that associates made it very easy for him to get accepted., but that is a NC policy -- I mean, you are not guaranteed a place at a particular university in the system, but pretty much if you complete the Associates with a "B" or higher you can get into a decent school.  My younger son is purposefully pursuing this path because it's much easier to get into engineering school with an associates earned in the system, rather than applying to engineering school as a graduating senior out of high school.

 

 

 

 

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15 hours ago, daijobu said:

Five years seems like a long time for a masters.  What field is this?  

I'd assume the same thing as @Lucy the Valiant. I probably would have called it a 5th year masters. But, more accurately, it is likely graduate-in-5-years-with-both-a-Bachelors-and-a-Masters-Degree.

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On 11/17/2019 at 10:19 AM, Farrar said:

sometimes they take the credit, but not for your specific major. That's a lot of stuff to have to know already for a 16 yo. And some of it isn't in the student's control completely - you may want to attend Flagship State U, but maybe your test scores won't get you there in the end - something it's hard to know at age 15 or 16.

It's just that saving money isn't the only reason to do DE. It can be to access certain subjects, to look good to colleges and prove you can do that level of work, to have a college experience... I wish schools were just more frank about the fact that the saving money and time aspect only applies if you take specific paths.

 

Just adding a couple of thoughts here.   Yes, you have to have a good idea of what your future major is to plan courses that will count.  My son was a super senior when he started dual enrollment, so that was easier for him since he was older. He already had a good idea of what he wanted to do.  When we were planning his courses, I looked at the suggested progression for his desired biology degree at the university he wanted to attend, and we plotted all of his courses at the CC with this in mind.   The university's website told what each community college course would transfer as, so it was easy.  He did take two math classes at the CC that won't count specifically for his degree requirements (they will be random electives), but we knew that in advance, and he needed these as pre-reqs to take a required math class, so he would have had to do that whether at the university or at the CC.  

One other thing I suggest that people keep in mind is that many of the associates degrees meet the bulk of the humanities/liberal studies/elective requirements for the transfer university.  What that means is that if a student is transferring into the sciences, he or she will have to take a pretty heavy science/math load once they transfer, with no electives to lighten the load.  This is what is happening to my son, and I worry about it for him.  He will be ahead of his same level classmates in electives, but behind them in the sciences, which is not ideal for a biology degree.  (The community college has very limited offerings in some of the sciences needed for the biology degree.). This may end up requiring an extra semester, because I can't see my son taking Physics, Calculus, Organic Chem and a Biology course all in one semester.  Still, I figure saving 2 years of tuition at the community college makes one extra semester more affordable. 

Finally, my son did not have to take the SAT or ACT, which was also a huge bonus for him in choosing this pathway.  An SAT or ACT is not needed to attend community college, and then if one transfers to the university with an Associates, no test scores are needed for admittance. 

 

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People have already spelled out a lot of the advantages of DE even if the credits don't transfer. I'll also add that, even if colleges don't give credit for them, the courses don't just disappear, in our experience. DS's college will give credit for a total of 5 classes for incoming freshmen or 6 if they're all AP classes (I don't know why they give a very slight preference for AP, but there you have it). He had exactly 6 AP credits to transfer in, and the registrar had automatically given him credit for those. He also had 10 DE classes and could have switched some things around, but, when we looked into it, it didn't seem to matter because they'll give him the credit for placement even if they won't toward required hours for graduation....if that makes sense. So he has a semester and a half worth of actual credit hours that he could use to graduate early or (more likely, since his financial aid is good and we can afford it) to take a lighter course load some semesters so he can do an internship or have more time for capstone projects or whatever. But then, even though they're not giving him the actual credit hours for his DE Spanish, he can use it to fulfill their foreign language requirement. And he won't have to take linear algebra again because he already took it DE. So the DE is giving him more flexibility and more freedom to, say, complete a double major if he wants to, than he'd have otherwise.

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Now I wish we lived in NC. 😉

 

We have some DE courses open to us inexpensively, and they DO transfer to the state U, but - they're online and not universally high quality, which complicates the decision-making. Hmmm. THANK YOU to all of you chiming in here - other "real" experiences (in this thread and multiple others) are very helpful for those of us trying to figure this out. 

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2 hours ago, Mom2mthj said:

Besides word of mouth, how do you evaluate if the de classes are any good?

I read the reviews on Rate My Professor. I'm looking for someone who isn't too easy but doesn't have anyone complaining about not turning back work on time or changing due dates frequently or other signs of disorganization. I look for teachers that are tagged as writing and reading intensive.

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